Dunning

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fromthehills
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Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:36 pm

I haven't listened to much of Skeptoid for quite a while, because he tackles fables, and low hanging fruit. But I used to, and he actually had good material on when I first discovered Skepticism. I even gave him a few bucks. I remember him saying that he'd " love to do this as a full time job, but only with support of listeners would that be possible." At that very time, it turns out, he was a millionaire that didn't have or need a full time job, due to planting illegal cookies onto unsuspecting computers.

One goal of Skepticism is to avoid being scammed. And he was obviously a scammer, if not still a scammer. Putting on a ten minute show a week, debunking a fairytale, urban legend, or some other easy myth is probably less work than many of us do, or have done routinely on this forum. So donations are nearly pure profit.



{!#%@}.

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:07 pm

fromthehills wrote:...he actually had good material on when I first discovered Skepticism...

One goal of Skepticism is to avoid being scammed. And he was obviously a scammer, if not still a scammer. Putting on a ten minute show a week, debunking a fairytale, urban legend, or some other easy myth is probably less work than many of us do, or have done routinely on this forum. So donations are nearly pure profit.


Sounds like him just setting it up for the later "easy harvest"?
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Re: Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:10 pm

Good point, Eggs.

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Re: Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:17 am

Also, his excuse was "everyone was doing it". Yeah, and "everyone" shoplifts a little something from Wal Mart, so even though I hate a thief, stealing a bit from Wal Mart isn't all that bad, right?. Even if those bits add up to $5million or so. Or even the low, proven ( I suppose, plea dealt anyway ) $2 to $4 hundred thousand.

A person willing to steal, fraud, or con anyone, even a big corporation out of anything has no compunction about twisted reasoning to steal from others.

There's a guy that is serving 5 to 10 for snatching a purse wondering why he didn't just steal $5million from Ebay and get 15 months in a white collar prison.

The difference is one guy steals $40 out of desperation, and the other steals millions for greed. Does it take someone smarter than I to see how that makes sense at all?

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:29 am

For some time now I've come to the conviction that shrewd cunning and large scale deception actually is not just treated leniently, but actually being rewarded.

I can't find anything ethical about defrauding others and wouldn't want to participate. Or being the victim of it. But the latter seems unavoidable these days. Whatever you need or are required to have, you're at the mercy of ever changing rules and laws that weren't, and aren't gonna be, in your favor.
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Re: Dunning

Postby Austin Harper » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:30 am

I still listen to Skeptoid because it's nice to get the counterargument to some claims summed up so quickly. But I don't donate because I don't want to support a scammer.
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Re: Dunning

Postby kennyc » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:37 am

Hell, half the internet is a scam....
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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:04 am

fromthehills wrote:I haven't listened to much of Skeptoid for quite a while, because he tackles fables, and low hanging fruit. But I used to, and he actually had good material on when I first discovered Skepticism. I even gave him a few bucks. I remember him saying that he'd " love to do this as a full time job, but only with support of listeners would that be possible." At that very time, it turns out, he was a millionaire that didn't have or need a full time job, due to planting illegal cookies onto unsuspecting computers.

One goal of Skepticism is to avoid being scammed. And he was obviously a scammer, if not still a scammer. Putting on a ten minute show a week, debunking a fairytale, urban legend, or some other easy myth is probably less work than many of us do, or have done routinely on this forum. So donations are nearly pure profit.
{!#%@}.


Where did you get that idea that a goal of skepticism was to avoid being scammed??
In the " Skepticism Bible?"
I think you have Skepticism confused with some sort of standard for human intelligence, or brain function.
It is no such thing.
This is no evidence that Skeptics with the best will in the world, but being, after all human, are less driven by emotion and more by objectivity.
Some are and some aren't, but mostly, one believes what one wants to believe, what one is determined to believe, what it makes us comfortable to believe…
So you were taken in by what you found out was a charlatan, or even by someone not quite up to your ethical standards ( standards that you forgot about while he was appealing to what appealed to your then way of thinking).

So what?
Better luck next time.
If people didn't, more than just occasionally, make decisions based on our emotions rather than our intellect there would be 10 books, ,8 movies, 5 museums, no theater at all, and no NoAlph…
Or recipes.
Or music.
Or coupling.
And there would only be one brand of beer…

NMB
P.S. But in case you feel put upon, taken, more ashamed of your gullibility even as you are appalled by the duplicity of a fellow Skeptic, hear this.
For the month of July, 2014 I rented my house to a British fellow, a SCIENTISt no less, a seismologist I found through a European Atheist new letter I used to subscribe to.
We agreed, through email and then telephone and then Skype (where I showed him around my house) to the price and who was responsible for what..
He was very admiring of the house, the books, the decor, the music collection…all of which convinced me that a man with such taste and such credentials didn't need to be subjected to anything so course and offensive as a credit check.
I proceeded put personal things in storage, and hire maid service for him, while he agreed that for a reduction in the rent, he would care for my cactus collection, feed my fish, and collect my mail..
Done deal.
He, charming fellow, arrived in Los Angeles on June 29th, I showed him around, her flattered me further, I gave him the keys….
And on July 1st, I , feeling clever AND financially solvent happily took off for a wonderful month in Europe.
Except that while I was in Portugal his check bounced… nothing I could do from there…
But when I came back, I found dead plants, dead fish, mail piled up unceremoniously in my living room, a few trash baskets full of gin bottles, broken glasses, about 50 missing CDs and 300 bucks in overdraft fees because of his bounced rent check.

So much for the superior honor of atheists..
When my son was 12, he laughed at one of my pronouncements of superior moral commitment as a factor of reason over faith, and said, "Ma? I sure hope you're right. Otherwise, one of your atheists is going to whack you, after first stealing your car . . Just like a Pope or a Rabbi might do. ."


NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:05 am

scrmbldggs wrote:For some time now I've come to the conviction that shrewd cunning and large scale deception actually is not just treated leniently, but actually being rewarded.

I can't find anything ethical about defrauding others and wouldn't want to participate. Or being the victim of it. But the latter seems unavoidable these days. Whatever you need or are required to have, you're at the mercy of ever changing rules and laws that weren't, and aren't gonna be, in your favor.


Beg pardon?

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:08 am

kennyc wrote:Hell, half the internet is a scam….


And full of misanthropy.
Because it's always those damn OTHER guys.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:30 am

kennyc wrote:Hell, half the internet is a scam....

Send me $50 and I'll tell you how to make the bad parts go away.
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Re: Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:42 am

kennyc wrote:Hell, half the internet is a scam....



More than that, probably.

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:54 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
kennyc wrote:Hell, half the internet is a scam....

Send me $50 and I'll tell you how to make the bad parts go away.


Using a Forum presumably devoted to ideas to sell questionable services is in itself a scam.

Unless,….LOL…. it's trying to sell self-published make believe science essays or shlock poetry on Amazon.
Then its just capitalist enterprise.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:13 am

Interesting storyz.

How duz your story relate to dunning, FTH? That meanz to pester sumwun for payment.

NMB, xanks for xinking ubowt nqalf. sqn yq wil advans tq xu nekst staj - ugreing wix it!

And who iz this dedbeat? The lojikl thing to do iz out him. Not only duz publisizing hiz misdeed possibly giv him sum well dezerved embarrassment, it also givez future potential victimz a better chans uv avoiding victimization.
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Re: Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:15 am

Sure. I see the "buyer beware" argument. And that's actually the argument I'm making, but just not as an individual. As a no {!#%@}.

So, from now on {!#%@} all you guys that I have corresponded with on what feels to be a personal level? Gord's vacations? Norma's NY Times and music Habit? Matthew's Ruskiphilia? Egg's [alleged] sincerity? Oleg's points that make me question my own? And on and on?

To dismiss Skepticism, the Skeptical movement as just a part of the internet.... To not hold it to a higher standard of integrity is basically saying "{!#%@} the world" it's saying "yeah well, he is a prick, but so are half the people you meet". To dismiss this as "everyone does it" isn't good enough for me. It's the same {!#%@} cop out Dunning tried to pull. {!#%@} that.


I just get really angry with liars and thieves. Locally, a guy got arrested for pants down jacking off in the middle of the street. Personally, though that guy needs help and not incarceration, I think what that guy was doing is more acceptable than what Dunning was doing. It was a straight, honest wank and wasn't asking for money to do it.

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Re: Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:27 am

JO 753 wrote:Interesting storyz.

How duz your story relate to dunning, FTH? That meanz to pester sumwun for payment.

NMB, xanks for xinking ubowt nqalf. sqn yq wil advans tq xu nekst staj - ugreing wix it!

And who iz this dedbeat? The lojikl thing to do iz out him. Not only duz publisizing hiz misdeed possibly giv him sum well dezerved embarrassment, it also givez future potential victimz a better chans uv avoiding victimization.



Link. I think you're saying you don't know Brian Dunning and the Skeptoid podcast. My apologies. I'd assumed everyone had heard of it, even if in passing. That's one link, but there are plenty more if you want to look, or I can post them.

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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:41 am

O! Thats the guyz name! :lol:

I think you are rite to expect more frum suppozedly more intellijent people. I expect them to hav thot thru the basic premisez uv civilization far enuf to realize that cooperation iz essential to our survival and that taking advantaj uv otherz trust and vulnerable points in the system leadz to kaos. If everybody cooperated only till they coud see an immediate payoff by cheating, thats the end uv civilization.

The reazon goverment iz nesusery iz bekuz so many peopl fail to realize this. The credibl thret uv punishment iz wut makes it all work. Every time we hear about the miscreants getting away with their crimez, that thret bekumz less credible and the seamz uv civilization get weaker.
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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:13 am

JO 753 wrote:I think you are rite to expect more frum suppozedly more intellijent people.

I'd say not only those considered "more intelligent", but also, or especially, those who make it a point to speak out against some who aren't very ethical.

I'd think the Golden Rule isn't hard to understand. :-D
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Re: Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:24 am

JO 753 wrote:O! Thats the guyz name! :lol:

I think you are rite to expect more frum suppozedly more intellijent people. I expect them to hav thot thru the basic premisez uv civilization far enuf to realize that cooperation iz essential to our survival and that taking advantaj uv otherz trust and vulnerable points in the system leadz to kaos. If everybody cooperated only till they coud see an immediate payoff by cheating, thats the end uv civilization.

The reazon goverment iz nesusery iz bekuz so many peopl fail to realize this. The credibl thret uv punishment iz wut makes it all work. Every time we hear about the miscreants getting away with their crimez, that thret bekumz less credible and the seamz uv civilization get weaker.



Okay, Okay. Yes, I understand, and agree with you about a level of government regulation. Because these {!#%@} won't do the right thing. But I disagree that the threat of punishment does anything. These {!#%@} will still try to find ways to get away with stuff. And maybe that is semantics.

But here we stand. More regulation? The rules are in place, and it doesn't stop the problem. I'm not saying that we drop the rules, or the punishment for breaking those rules. But more government doesn't solve anything. More government incarcerates the guy masturbating in the street, which isn't his first time, when he really needs help. More government allows a $5million con artist serve fifteen months in a prison that will put him in no contact with violent offenders. This isn't me being an optimistic libertarian. This is saying that if you want the government to regulate more, think about getting them to regulate the way they should, first.

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:35 am

fromthehills wrote:
kennyc wrote:Hell, half the internet is a scam....



More than that, probably.


You don't seem to get m From that you, me …and everyone else who participates here …IS the internet.
Although the subject is rendered even sillier by the chiming in of participants who themselves have taken advantage or the internet's essentially unmonitored nature.
Where else can people lay claim to education,talents, a careers that have no basis in fact?
Where else can a rumor become reality and spread to eveny corner of the globe in a matter of minutes?
Where else .. certainly not in conventional media.. is libel routine, with little recourse to justice?



What you seem to be saying …can it be that libertarian you actually thinks this way?… is that the Internet and everyone who has anything to do with it, should be parsed for ethical standards, present proof of no major runs-in with the law, and perhaps have an agreed I.Q. level, and not be on any psychotropic drugs after any incarcerations in mental hospitals..

I would add to that, personally, that all comers be examined for sincerity, loyalty, and a proven capacity for being able to resist undue flattery…
Bu that is not going to happen… at least not with accompanying change which would further raise your ire….
So for now, at least, .. prepare to live with, and be comforted by your short fuse and your claims to moral superiority.


NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:42 am

fromthehills wrote:
JO 753 wrote:O! Thats the guyz name! :lol:

I think you are rite to expect more frum suppozedly more intellijent people. I expect them to hav thot thru the basic premisez uv civilization far enuf to realize that cooperation iz essential to our survival and that taking advantaj uv otherz trust and vulnerable points in the system leadz to kaos. If everybody cooperated only till they coud see an immediate payoff by cheating, thats the end uv civilization.

The reazon goverment iz nesusery iz bekuz so many peopl fail to realize this. The credibl thret uv punishment iz wut makes it all work. Every time we hear about the miscreants getting away with their crimez, that thret bekumz less credible and the seamz uv civilization get weaker.



Okay, Okay. Yes, I understand, and agree with you about a level of government regulation. Because these {!#%@} won't do the right thing. But I disagree that the threat of punishment does anything. These {!#%@} will still try to find ways to get away with stuff. And maybe that is semantics.

But here we stand. More regulation? The rules are in place, and it doesn't stop the problem. I'm not saying that we drop the rules, or the punishment for breaking those rules. But more government doesn't solve anything. More government incarcerates the guy masturbating in the street, which isn't his first time, when he really needs help. More government allows a $5million con artist serve fifteen months in a prison that will put him in no contact with violent offenders. This isn't me being an optimistic libertarian. This is saying that if you want the government to regulate more, think about getting them to regulate the way they should, first.


How about education that stresses the elimination of gullibility?

Are you absolutely certain…although i assume you question the existence of the human subconscious … that what you aren't angry at its hat you were taken in by a voice that sounded infallible and sincere to you?
Pissed that your judgment was so off?
That you were, despite your conviction that you are unique, just of of Barnum's suckers, one of whom is born every minute?
Commiserations.
That WILL happen.
And it hurts.
Disappointment, especially in oneself, is painful.
But it's also a learning experience.
Go for the latter.


NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:49 am

nmblum wrote:
fromthehills wrote:
kennyc wrote:Hell, half the internet is a scam....



More than that, probably.


You don't seem to get m From that you, me …and everyone else who participates here …IS the internet.
Although the subject is rendered even sillier by the chiming in of participants who themselves have taken advantage or the internet's essentially unmonitored nature.
Where else can people lay claim to education,talents, a careers that have no basis in fact?
Where else can a rumor become reality and spread to eveny corner of the globe in a matter of minutes?
Where else .. certainly not in conventional media.. is libel routine, with little recourse to justice?



What you seem to be saying …can it be that libertarian you actually thinks this way?… is that the Internet and everyone who has anything to do with it, should be parsed for ethical standards, present proof of no major runs-in with the law, and perhaps have an agreed I.Q. level, and not be on any psychotropic drugs after any incarcerations in mental hospitals..

I would add to that, personally, that all comers be examined for sincerity, loyalty, and a proven capacity for being able to resist undue flattery…
Bu that is not going to happen… at least not with accompanying change which would further raise your ire….
So for now, at least, .. prepare to live with, and be comforted by your short fuse and your claims to moral superiority.


NMB

As usual my questioning self here, the question being, "Did I get this right?" and if not, forgive, but what I read in FTH's words is simply: All of the above behavior does happen, it was and is a (seemingly increasing) part of life, but does that mean one should join in it? (Or not speak out against it? And if one does, should one not be held to the standard one just proclaimed to be preferred?)

I think he answers "No." to that (first) question. And so do I.

And I also say, "Yes" to the last.
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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:10 am

nmblum wrote:How about education that stresses the elimination of gullibility?


I'm trying, but gess whoz rezisting.
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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:21 am

fromthehills wrote:Okay, Okay. Yes, I understand, and agree with you about a level of government regulation. Because these {!#%@} won't do the right thing. But I disagree that the threat of punishment does anything. These {!#%@} will still try to find ways to get away with stuff. And maybe that is semantics.


But they are less likely to try and maybe less likely to get away with it. Thats the best we can hope for, but certainly not wut we are getting for our tax dollarz.

Ther are way more lawz on the books than needed; its the enforsment thats failing. Look at the SEC. if you needed to point the finger uv blame for the 2008 colapse in only 1 direction, thats it.

NMB - Wen I segjested outing the dedbeat earlier I wuz talking to you.
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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:25 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
nmblum wrote:
fromthehills wrote:
kennyc wrote:Hell, half the internet is a scam....



More than that, probably.


You don't seem to get m From that you, me …and everyone else who participates here …IS the internet.
Although the subject is rendered even sillier by the chiming in of participants who themselves have taken advantage or the internet's essentially unmonitored nature.
Where else can people lay claim to education,talents, a careers that have no basis in fact?
Where else can a rumor become reality and spread to eveny corner of the globe in a matter of minutes?
Where else .. certainly not in conventional media.. is libel routine, with little recourse to justice?



What you seem to be saying …can it be that libertarian you actually thinks this way?… is that the Internet and everyone who has anything to do with it, should be parsed for ethical standards, present proof of no major runs-in with the law, and perhaps have an agreed I.Q. level, and not be on any psychotropic drugs after any incarcerations in mental hospitals..

I would add to that, personally, that all comers be examined for sincerity, loyalty, and a proven capacity for being able to resist undue flattery…
Bu that is not going to happen… at least not with accompanying change which would further raise your ire….
So for now, at least, .. prepare to live with, and be comforted by your short fuse and your claims to moral superiority.


NMB

As usual my questioning self here, the question being, "Did I get this right?" and if not, forgive, but what I read in FTH's words is simply: All of the above behavior does happen, it was and is a (seemingly increasing) part of life, but does that mean one should join in it? (Or not speak out against it? And if one does, should one not be held to the standard one just proclaimed to be preferred?)

I think he answers "No." to that (first) question. And so do I.

And I also say, "Yes" to the last.

Really?
Do you?
And what "questioning self" are you referring to that I have obviously missed?

Not that I don't appreciate your opinions, or your essential intelligence Eggs, but I find your nature less questioning than you do.
In fact, and especially in this case, I can't help comparing you to Sancho Panza, admirably loyal, and quick to defend his adored friend, but not quite up to the task because of blind, virtual idolatry that is less helpful than it is dangerous.
And as to your interpretation of the words of another?
Again.. I have to ask you indulgence of my fin of stubbornness: I don't think you or anyone else can do such a thing..


By the way, I like, even admire, FTH too… although I do lack the blind adoration gene.

But in this case he is distinctly overboard and you have not really been able to throw him a life line.
If anything you have called attention to how weird this subject and the ensuing exchanges actually are.


NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:08 am

:quix:
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:18 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
JO 753 wrote:I think you are rite to expect more frum suppozedly more intellijent people.

I'd say not only those considered "more intelligent", but also, or especially, those who make it a point to speak out against some who aren't very ethical.

I'd think the Golden Rule isn't hard to understand. :-D


Oh, so we've gone on to the Gospels, have we?
As in Luke 6:31?

" And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise."
Cute,, for sure… and certainly consistent with your other positions on matters ethical.

Has it occurred to you that "do until others and you would have them do unto you," is actually a defense of "an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth?.."
That is that we shouldn't punish any more than we have ourself been punished.
If someone here calls you "STUPID," then going to his house to beat him up would be excessive, but shrieking SUPID back at him would be totally appropriate.
Thus setting the tone for an atmosphere of justice and reason.
Which seems to be exactly where we are now… the Golden Rule has actually been respected here…
At least as far as we know.
Perhaps the police know more.
At any rate think you for the uplifting message…. it's always edifying in a skeptical environment to have the Bible referenced when other arguments fail..
And now, when you have time, could you address what you mean when you use the term ETHICAL?
No hurry…. I have to re-read the rest of the Gospel According to Luke now.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:24 am

AFAIK, the Golden Rule did not originate from the Torah, it was merely "borrowed".
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Dunning

Postby Gord » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:53 am

I'm getting a vacation? 8-)

fromthehills wrote:Link. I think you're saying you don't know Brian Dunning and the Skeptoid podcast.

I didn't know either of them. I thought this thread was about the first half of the Dunning-Kruger effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 ... ger_effect
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:40 am

I mite hav to do sum dunning this month. It never works, but at least I wont hav to be bothered with ill conseevd emerjensy jobz frum this particular dedbeat.
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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:50 am

scrmbldggs wrote:AFAIK, the Golden Rule did not originate from the Torah, it was merely "borrowed".


I have no idea what that means…
What CHristians refer to as the Golden Rule exists in most cultures in one form or another… but I think the Hebrews got it from the Babylonians.
Or perhaps it was the Sumerians… who like every other ancient culture had a similar aphorism in its liturgy, and its literature.
LOL… we are certainly going far afield here in Skepticland, especially so with one like yourself, among the more adamantly Skeptical ….
Not to mention suspicious of the flaccid commitment to Skepticim of so many others… including the mindless use of the term "troll," to those suspected of not sufficiently in line with the leaders of the pack.
But that's okay… all fair (albeit puzzling) in love and war.

However just for the record,: the citation I offered from Luke IS indeed a variation from the Old Testament and in fact, the Torah, and specifically Leviticus 19:18 and Leviticus 19:34.
So if further proof is needed, can we avail ourselves of works presumably from the horse's mouth, from the Christ himself, as quoted by Matthew in the First Gospel?
"Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets" (Matthew 7:12 )
LOL… I hope you understand that i am not "pulling rank" here: biblical aphorisms are poetry to me, and never conjure up moral context.
But you did bring it up.
Not that I understand why… but I accept that as a cogent person you must have a cogent reason.
NMB .
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:22 pm

Eggs understood what I was saying. You, Norma, seem to have missed my point altogether. Or are just being intentionally difficult to get a reaction. Brian Dunning was a respected Skeptical activist. He was a promoter of educating people "in a way to eliminate gullibility". He turned out to be a swindler. That's the point. And the point of this thread is to show that an educator in critical thinking can be his own antithesis. My point is that the Skeptical community, online or otherwise, would probably do better by not supporting him any longer. But that's to be seen.

I suppose there is nothing in Skepticism that says one has to be forthright and honorable, but if the point of Skepticism is the promotion of critical thinking, why would we want someone of some note, even if low-level celebrity, speak for this cause? He's fodder for the Christians, the anti-vax, the CAM quacks, the anti-science people altogether. An example that they can point to and say, " Look, see these Skeptics can't be trusted."

And this isn't rumor. There is evidence, and he has admitted to fraud, in a plea bargain, which means that he bargained his sentence down by pleading guilty to a lesser crime. The original charges were more substantial.

Norma, you seem to think I want the guy removed from Skepticism by law. I'm saying that this is something we can do for ourselves. All on our own, with no government regulation. We can choose not to support con artists that wish to represent Skepticism.

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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:34 pm

Sentens him to 20 yirz uv gullibility! He woud be legally compelled to believ everything told to him! Required to watch Fox Cable Newz and vote republican!
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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:11 pm

nmblum wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:AFAIK, the Golden Rule did not originate from the Torah, it was merely "borrowed".


I have no idea what that means…
What CHristians refer to as the Golden Rule exists in most cultures in one form or another… but I think the Hebrews got it from the Babylonians.
Or perhaps it was the Sumerians… who like every other ancient culture had a similar aphorism in its liturgy, and its literature.
LOL… we are certainly going far afield here in Skepticland, especially so with one like yourself, among the more adamantly Skeptical ….
Not to mention suspicious of the flaccid commitment to Skepticim of so many others… including the mindless use of the term "troll," to those suspected of not sufficiently in line with the leaders of the pack.
But that's okay… all fair (albeit puzzling) in love and war.

However just for the record,: the citation I offered from Luke IS indeed a variation from the Old Testament and in fact, the Torah, and specifically Leviticus 19:18 and Leviticus 19:34.
So if further proof is needed, can we avail ourselves of works presumably from the horse's mouth, from the Christ himself, as quoted by Matthew in the First Gospel?
"Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets" (Matthew 7:12 )
LOL… I hope you understand that i am not "pulling rank" here: biblical aphorisms are poetry to me, and never conjure up moral context.
But you did bring it up.
Not that I understand why… but I accept that as a cogent person you must have a cogent reason.
NMB .

I mentioned the universal so-called Golden Rule somewhere in this thread.

You brought up Christianity, and with that what it, for whatever reason, is leaning on.

Not that I understand why, but there it is.
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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:22 pm

fromthehills wrote:Eggs understood what I was saying. You, Norma, seem to have missed my point altogether. Or are just being intentionally difficult to get a reaction. Brian Dunning was a respected Skeptical activist. He was a promoter of educating people "in a way to eliminate gullibility". He turned out to be a swindler. That's the point. And the point of this thread is to show that an educator in critical thinking can be his own antithesis. My point is that the Skeptical community, online or otherwise, would probably do better by not supporting him any longer. But that's to be seen.

I suppose there is nothing in Skepticism that says one has to be forthright and honorable, but if the point of Skepticism is the promotion of critical thinking, why would we want someone of some note, even if low-level celebrity, speak for this cause? He's fodder for the Christians, the anti-vax, the CAM quacks, the anti-science people altogether. An example that they can point to and say, " Look, see these Skeptics can't be trusted."

And this isn't rumor. There is evidence, and he has admitted to fraud, in a plea bargain, which means that he bargained his sentence down by pleading guilty to a lesser crime. The original charges were more substantial.

Norma, you seem to think I want the guy removed from Skepticism by law. I'm saying that this is something we can do for ourselves. All on our own, with no government regulation. We can choose not to support con artists that wish to represent Skepticism.


I think no such thing…. (although clever Eggs, lucky you).
I'm saying, and I'm now about to say it once more, that you are exceeding your rights and your responsibilities to take such extreme umbrage at what is not really an authority but just another human being who has been able to take advantage of the format of the internet to make a place for himself in the sun.

He is no more worthy of uncritical admiration (or financial donations) and the ensuing and inevitable disappointment that goes with hero worship … than is Pat Robertson, or any other TV preacher… or telemarketer.

Except that he is selling himself under the label of Skepticism, rather than marketing himself and collecting cash for his talents while selling Jesus Christ.

Brain Dunning is no more an educator than you, kennyC., Eggs or *I* am.
He is a huckster.
And a huckster with no particular credentials for authority who happens to have the internet as his stage and his microphone and who recognized that it could be utilized to rake in a few bucks in the process.
But instead of selling Brillo or toilet cleaner he was selling himself and using Skepticism as the lure to get you into the store.
And you walked into the store and spent your currency… your desire to believe the only the best of a charismatic Skeptic…… there.
And there is, sorry to say, something corrupting, and with the speed of light, about having , with no responsibility to the truth or even to making rudimentary sense, this totally indiscriminate tool for making one's opinions (or ambitions, or ignorance, or greed) known…


Norma Manna Blum
Last edited by nmblum88 on Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:29 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
nmblum wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:AFAIK, the Golden Rule did not originate from the Torah, it was merely "borrowed".


I have no idea what that means…
What CHristians refer to as the Golden Rule exists in most cultures in one form or another… but I think the Hebrews got it from the Babylonians.
Or perhaps it was the Sumerians… who like every other ancient culture had a similar aphorism in its liturgy, and its literature.
LOL… we are certainly going far afield here in Skepticland, especially so with one like yourself, among the more adamantly Skeptical ….
Not to mention suspicious of the flaccid commitment to Skepticim of so many others… including the mindless use of the term "troll," to those suspected of not sufficiently in line with the leaders of the pack.
But that's okay… all fair (albeit puzzling) in love and war.

However just for the record,: the citation I offered from Luke IS indeed a variation from the Old Testament and in fact, the Torah, and specifically Leviticus 19:18 and Leviticus 19:34.
So if further proof is needed, can we avail ourselves of works presumably from the horse's mouth, from the Christ himself, as quoted by Matthew in the First Gospel?
"Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets" (Matthew 7:12 )
LOL… I hope you understand that i am not "pulling rank" here: biblical aphorisms are poetry to me, and never conjure up moral context.
But you did bring it up.
Not that I understand why… but I accept that as a cogent person you must have a cogent reason.
NMB .

I mentioned the universal so-called Golden Rule somewhere in this thread.

You brought up Christianity, and with that what it, for whatever reason, is leaning on.

Not that I understand why, but there it is.


Are you kidding me?
The Golden Rule is to Christianity what Skepticism is to Brian Dunning.
It's the bacon that gets the pets sniffing around, and then, having tasted it, begging for more.

Norma Manna Blum
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:35 pm

If it be so for you, so be it.

As for me and my house - not so much.
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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:54 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:If it be so for you, so be it.

As for me and my house - not so much.


Fair enough……
Other than the holier than thou stuff..
That's not quite so easily acceptable.

But may I add this?
About the internet, that is?
Who knew that there were so many trumpeters in the world?
All blowing our own horns, and nobody listening?

But happily there is this to soothe the savage breast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCdwzgjPVHI

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:05 pm

And, Eggs. how could I forget this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRomm8CZUnc


NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:10 pm

Without even kliking on that, I bet this iz far more appropriate to the topic: Operation Mindcrime
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