Electric Cars

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Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:00 am

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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:53 am

No, they're new and experimental.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:09 am

What we currently see in battery innovation resembles the Cambrian explosion: hundreds of concepts, dozens of prototypes, a handful of products. It will take a while to sort out the best, but there is no question that we will find something suitable.
The same happened with hand-held computing devices, and the same will happen with cars and their fuel: the winner might not be apparent for another decade or more, but it's already clear that the days of gasoline-powered cars as the norm is coming to a close.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:22 pm

FTL: "But wishing – and decreeing – can’t overcome reality. It can just make things really expensive and difficult for us." /// Poorly written pablum. It only gets expensive and difficult BECAUSE of the "new reality" established. Obviously...... an industry shill.

............might the requirement be delayed on inability to meet it? >>>>> of course. Is reality being overcome? >>>>> of course. The New Reality. All bow before our New Battery Overlords.

EM: Yes.... the explosion in "energy storage" (I very much like compressed air.......but its not sexy and won't catch on even with its many and wonderful advantages) is something to behold. The future is "fun" to watch happen.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:59 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:What we currently see in battery innovation resembles the Cambrian explosion: hundreds of concepts, dozens of prototypes, a handful of products. It will take a while to sort out the best, but there is no question that we will find something suitable.
The same happened with hand-held computing devices, and the same will happen with cars and their fuel: the winner might not be apparent for another decade or more, but it's already clear that the days of gasoline-powered cars as the norm is coming to a close.



Assuming that the objective is to not burn fossil fuels, how many new nuclear power plants or bird-chopping windmills will be needed, or how much of the countryside will have to be blanketed with solar panels in order to provide electricity for these gasless carriages?
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Gord » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:45 pm

Tom Palven wrote:...bird-chopping windmills....

:lol: As if that's the reason you're against them!
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:03 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Assuming that the objective is to not burn fossil fuels, how many new nuclear power plants or bird-chopping windmills will be needed, or how much of the countryside will have to be blanketed with solar panels in order to provide electricity for these gasless carriages?

That number is "known" and easy to find. Its all doable.....its just a task. You act as if we have any other option?

Name that option..........or get out of the way.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:04 am

Gord wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:...bird-chopping windmills....

:lol: As if that's the reason you're against them!



There you go again with a cryptic little slur that you think is cute.

Wind mills chop up birds and are just plain ugly, desecrating landscapes. Why do you think I hate them? Because I hate cheap energy and own oil stocks?

Why don't I question your motives? Do you love wind mills because they are as pretty as Stephen Hawking?

Or is it the fact that Republicans have learned to love them? :mrgreen:
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:36 am

Solar power is cheaper than any other current source of electricity. It can be better distributed than any other power source (see the new Tesla roof-tiles), and the rise of electric cars proves that energy storage isn't an issue: battery capacity is about the only thing in the energy market that is growing faster than solar panel construction.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:31 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Solar power is cheaper than any other current source of electricity.


If you can back that up I'll be all-in for solar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_e ... _by_source

We are told that the costs of solar energy will go down. We were also told when I was in Junior High 60 years ago that nuclear fusion would supply all the cheap energy the world could use within 25 years, and that hasn't panned out.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:59 pm

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/pl ... nted-lows/

http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 09251.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -the-u-s/#

New solar farms are cheaper than any other forms of power (if in the right location). And we haven't nearly reached the limits of how much cheaper it can become.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Electric Cars

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:36 pm

Of note: the cost for solar usually assumes a 20 or 30 year depreciation schedule for the cost of the solar panels......but the solar panels last virtually forever, they just slowly degrade their efficiency converting sun to power. So...they are indeed cheaper than grid electricity right now and have been for some time. The accountants will catch up.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Gord » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:39 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:...bird-chopping windmills....

:lol: As if that's the reason you're against them!

There you go again with a cryptic little slur that you think is cute.

It's not cryptic, not a slur, and I am cute my mother says so.

Wind mills chop up birds and are just plain ugly, desecrating landscapes. Why do you think I hate them? Because I hate cheap energy and own oil stocks?

"Wind mills chop up birds" is just an excuse. You don't care about birds, you just want to throw dirt at windmills. "Ugly" is just your opinion (I've seen some both up close and from a distance and they are friggin' majestic! :soppy: ) and they don't "desecrate" anything because, duh, religion is not windmills. I think you hate them because you are weird, but that's only a minor opinion because I don't really think about your connection to windmills very much at all. I also don't think you own anything, which is not to say that I think you own nothing, but rather that I don't think either of those things because I think of other more interesting things rather than about what you're thinking about.

Why don't I question your motives? Do you love wind mills because they are as pretty as Stephen Hawking?

You do question my motives, and I like windmills for their clean energy and their majestic appearances. I also dislike windmills, for less useful reasons (they're bigger than me, which is scary, and they make me dizzy if I stare at them too long because they never stay still).

Or is it the fact that Republicans have learned to love them? :mrgreen:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... subsidies/

I also don't think Republicans have (a) learned or (b) love them. If Republicans have decided to subsidise anything, I can only expect it's because (a) they're getting something out of it, or (b) they're avoiding getting something they don't want.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:39 am

Gord wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:...bird-chopping windmills....

:lol: As if that's the reason you're against them!

There you go again with a cryptic little slur that you think is cute.

It's not cryptic, not a slur, and I am cute my mother says so.

Wind mills chop up birds and are just plain ugly, desecrating landscapes. Why do you think I hate them? Because I hate cheap energy and own oil stocks?

"Wind mills chop up birds" is just an excuse. You don't care about birds, you just want to throw dirt at windmills.


Don't know where you got your degree in psychological clairvoyance, but you might try to get your money back.

I've always been a nature boy involved with both plants and animals. In my younger days I worked on a NY State pheasant farm, as an animal keeper at Turtle Back Zoo in NJ, as a park naturalist, as an assistant curator at a primatological institute, and then for 26 years as an Agricultural Extension Service horticulturist while running a small landscaping business and fixing up, re-landscaping, and selling about a dozen houses on the side.

I was a member of the Audubon Society for many years, the Sierra Club and Defenders of Wildlife for a number of years, and am still a member of various horticultural societies, although my main current interest is world peace and open borders for all.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:30 am

Richard Engel on Assignment has excellent one hour review of China going Green with Electric Cars, batteries and so forth. India too..................kinda like the USA being left in the dust. "We coulda been great!!"

MSNBC with repeats...next/last at midnight EST?

I've missed all his other shows.........have to check out the internet. They are that good.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Gord » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:56 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:...bird-chopping windmills....

:lol: As if that's the reason you're against them!

There you go again with a cryptic little slur that you think is cute.

It's not cryptic, not a slur, and I am cute my mother says so.

Wind mills chop up birds and are just plain ugly, desecrating landscapes. Why do you think I hate them? Because I hate cheap energy and own oil stocks?

"Wind mills chop up birds" is just an excuse. You don't care about birds, you just want to throw dirt at windmills.


Don't know where you got your degree in psychological clairvoyance, but you might try to get your money back.

I've always been a nature boy involved with both plants and animals. In my younger days I worked on a NY State pheasant farm, as an animal keeper at Turtle Back Zoo in NJ, as a park naturalist, as an assistant curator at a primatological institute, and then for 26 years as an Agricultural Extension Service horticulturist while running a small landscaping business and fixing up, re-landscaping, and selling about a dozen houses on the side.

I was a member of the Audubon Society for many years, the Sierra Club and Defenders of Wildlife for a number of years, and am still a member of various horticultural societies, although my main current interest is world peace and open borders for all.

And therefore you love birds and hate windmills. Gotcha.

Here, learn how some stuff works: http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... -birds.htm

And here's what the Audobon Society had to say in 2006: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/art ... 46840.html

For the Birds: Audubon Society Stands Up in Support of Wind Energy

The endorsement makes a lot of sense, once the facts surrounding the issue are put in proper perspective. Birds are over 10,000 times more likely -- at least -- to be killed by other human-related causes (e.g., by buildings, vehicles, pet cats, pesticides, etc.) than by a wind turbine; put another way, for every 10,000 birds killed by such human activities, less than one death is caused by a wind turbine. Granted, no one -- the Audubon Society, AWEA, or any other environmentally conscious organization -- wants to see any birds killed at all. But when you talk about bird mortality today, one of the areas of gravest concern is global warming and the massive, wholesale destruction of wildlife habitat it is already beginning to create. "As the threats of global warming loom ever larger, alternative energy sources like wind power are essential," Flicker wrote in his magazine column. In an interview with AWEA's Wind Energy Weekly industry newsletter, Flicker said that the organization's decision to speak out about wind came as a result of the recent increased urgency on the part of the scientific community with respect to global warming. Specifically, he cited a recent study by James Hansen for the National Academy of Sciences suggesting that if greenhouse gases are not reduced in the next decade, a significant number of plants and animals could face extinction by the middle of the century. "It creates a sense of urgency beyond anything we have seen before," said Flicker, adding that he wants to ensure his organization is not an obstacle for wind power but a help. "I want to make sure Audubon is doing everything we can to promote both conservation and wind energy." Flicker summed up the Audubon perspective with stark directness. "When you look at a wind turbine, you can find the bird carcasses and count them," he said. "With a coal-fired power plant, you can't count the carcasses, but it's going to kill a lot more birds."

And as for this: https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/release ... finds.html

It's talking about one site, the Altamont Pass energy farm in California. And it's right! But it's only right for that one place. Check out the first link I provided, it's discussed there:

...Altamont Pass is different for two main reasons: turbine location and turbine design.

There are more than 4,000 wind turbines at the Altamont Pass energy farm in California. It's one of the first wind farms in the United States, and its 20-year-old turbines are accordingly out-of-date. Their design has long since been abandoned: Latticework blades with small surface area are far from efficient for energy generation, and far from safe for birds. The lattice structure actually attracts large birds, because the frame makes for an excellent perch. Large birds like raptors are drawn to the blades, and collision rates are high as a result.

The other design issue is the blades' low surface area, because less surface area means the blades have to spin faster to turn the electricity-generating turbines. The faster the blades spin, the more dangerous they are to birds flying near them. It's unlikely that a bird that finds itself in the vicinity of the blades could ever make it through when they're spinning so fast....
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:35 am

Gord wrote:

And therefore you love birds and hate windmills. Gotcha.
[/quote]


And how could I forget, this past Spring I was granted Master Naturalist certification by the State of Georgia.

I hope that you now have enough facts to complete your psychologizing of me.

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Re: Electric Cars

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:52 pm

Trying to be objective, it does look to me that Gord has provided some effective arguments in support of Wind Turbines. Most telling is the position paper stating Audubon's support.

TP: you are trying to deflect from the good info provided by characterizing the whole thing as ab hominen. Hmmmm.... ab or bias? It doesn't matter because the stats on bird death for the benefit received compared to other sources of bird death pretty much win the day.

Got anything except grouse?
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:12 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Got anything except grouse?


I'll stand by my amusement with Gord's gratuitous psychoanalysis.

He's a gentleman, a scholar, and alas, a comedian.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:46 pm

Yes, you can stand by the amusement............but no reason not to address the 99% that was on point.

"you lose" otherwise.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:50 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes, you can stand by the amusement............but no reason not to address the 99% that was on point.

"you lose" otherwise.


I'll try to accept my defeat gracefully.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:53 pm

Its all in writing.

............. We all: just look............... and see it.

I keep reading there are "better designs" for wind turbines as they relate to bird safety..... but I haven't seen any in operation. With no counter.........I have to go along with Audubon that bird safety isn't a relevant concern, and note that once again an appeal to personal authority means diddlysquat.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby JO 753 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:08 pm

A foolish article by a Ludite. "Eric Peters. Cars, motorcyles & Libertarian politics" iz the title logo on the paje.

The bottom line iz that few commutes are 200 milez and electric carz can alredy exeed that.

Tom Palven wrote:Are they painfully laughable?


No.

Only the most extreem (and expensive) super fart machinez can beat the Tesla P100 to 60 mph. And therez another brand starting up that duznt limit their car to 155 mph. It got to sumthing like 225, wich woud make it sumthing like the 3rd or 4th fastest production car. (sorry, cant recall the name at the moment. Its sumthing perfectly boring and predictable and I think thats going to kill them before they get off the ground)

About the bird thing - Hav windmillz caught up with mirrored glass skyscraperz yet?
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:29 pm

JO 753 wrote:A foolish article by a Ludite. "Eric Peters. Cars, motorcyles & Libertarian politics" iz the title logo on the paje.

The bottom line iz that few commutes are 200 milez and electric carz can alredy exeed that.

Tom Palven wrote:Are they painfully laughable?


No.

Only the most extreem (and expensive) super fart machinez can beat the Tesla P100 to 60 mph. And therez another brand starting up that duznt limit their car to 155 mph. It got to sumthing like 225, wich woud make it sumthing like the 3rd or 4th fastest production car. (sorry, cant recall the name at the moment. Its sumthing perfectly boring and predictable and I think thats going to kill them before they get off the ground)

About the bird thing - Hav windmillz caught up with mirrored glass skyscraperz yet?


No mas! No mas!

I don't KNOW if windmills have caught up with skyscraperz yet!

I awlreddy kunseeded!!!
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Gord » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:56 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:And therefore you love birds and hate windmills. Gotcha.

And how could I forget, this past Spring I was granted Master Naturalist certification by the State of Georgia.

I hope that you now have enough facts to complete your psychologizing of me.

Do I owe you the 5 cents that Lucy Van Pelt gets?
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=lu ... &FORM=IGRE

Oh, you owe me far more than that just for nudging you towards the possible recognition of your hypocrisy.

Have you recognised it yet? Or are you still claiming your love for birds is why you're against windmills which would replace things that actually do kill massive numbers of birds?

Tom Palven wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Got anything except grouse?


I'll stand by my amusement with Gord's gratuitous psychoanalysis.

So you are wilfully choosing to ignore my actual message, then? I mean, that's fine and all, it's your nickel.

He's a gentleman, a scholar, and alas, a comedian.

Alas, I'm none of those things. But I suppose I may appear to be them all in comparison to, say, you for instance.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:46 am

Gord wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:And therefore you love birds and hate windmills. Gotcha.

And how could I forget, this past Spring I was granted Master Naturalist certification by the State of Georgia.

I hope that you now have enough facts to complete your psychologizing of me.

Do I owe you the 5 cents that Lucy Van Pelt gets?
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=lu ... &FORM=IGRE

Oh, you owe me far more than that just for nudging you towards the possible recognition of your hypocrisy.

Have you recognised it yet? Or are you still claiming your love for birds is why you're against windmills which would replace things that actually do kill massive numbers of birds?

Tom Palven wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Got anything except grouse?


I'll stand by my amusement with Gord's gratuitous psychoanalysis.

So you are wilfully choosing to ignore my actual message, then? I mean, that's fine and all, it's your nickel.

He's a gentleman, a scholar, and alas, a comedian.

Alas, I'm none of those things. But I suppose I may appear to be them all in comparison to, say, you for instance.


Got it. :D
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Gord » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:43 am

:mrgreen:
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:45 am

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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:09 pm

Gord wrote: And here's what the Audobon Society had to say....
Thank you Gord for this information. I did not know this. :D

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Re: Electric Cars

Postby KevinLevites » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:33 am

Electric cars are the wave of the future, but I wonder if industry may not by going about it in the wrong way.

Everybody seems to focus on new battery technology...which should certianly be persued...but why not persue hi-tech carbon fiber composites?

Many of these materials are much stonger than most metal alloys, yet less than a quarter of the weight.

If we make a car that's only a third of the weight, it seems (to me) that the current battery technology would be adequate to make electric cars much more competitive with gasoline cars.

For that matter, super light carbon fiber car might be made to run on pure methol alcohol and get decent mileage (despite the lower BTU rating of wood alcohol) just by virtue of being lighter and less massive.

Wood alcohol can be made from seaweed.

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Re: Electric Cars

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:51 am

Lighter is not as important an element of the equation as the power source. Course...every element of the equation should be maximized........all as the market will guide.
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:52 am

Seems they could be quite dangerous at the high speeds those puppies seem to be capable of. Unless we want them to be truly cars of the future and lift off by design. :-P

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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:26 am

KevinLevites wrote:If we make a car that's only a third of the weight, it seems (to me) that the current battery technology would be adequate to make electric cars much more competitive with gasoline cars.


Unless gas cars were also made from composites?
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Re: Electric Cars

Postby KevinLevites » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:08 am

Tom Palven wrote:
KevinLevites wrote:If we make a car that's only a third of the weight, it seems (to me) that the current battery technology would be adequate to make electric cars much more competitive with gasoline cars.


Unless gas cars were also made from composites?[/quote

You're right, of course.
Just my two cents.

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Re: Electric Cars

Postby Gord » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:15 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gord wrote: And here's what the Audobon Society had to say....

Thank you Gord for this information. I did not know this. :D

I blame the right-wing media for the suppression of this information.
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