Why I keep doing this

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Lausten
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Why I keep doing this

Postby Lausten » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:48 pm

I went to a talk recently by a local professor, mostly a Russian philosophy expert, but he talked about how Augustine suppressed the more humanistic aspects of Christianity, and how they eventually came back and helped start the Enlightenment. Problematic for sure. But it was refreshing to here a believer completely demolish the Catholic Church and admit to all its failings. It led to my latest blog. Enjoy.
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Major Malfunction » Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:26 pm

He can see all the failings, and yet still believes in a magic sky fairy?

Guy is {!#%@} in the head, mate. {!#%@} in the head.
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Lausten » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:17 pm

I know. What he said was, religion is here to stay, so there is no point in trying to end it, instead we should push it toward humanism. To me, pushing it toward humanism and calling stupid or arresting its criminals or making taxable or otherwise constraining it, look about the same.
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Hex » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:03 pm

Lausten wrote:I know. What he said was, religion is here to stay, so there is no point in trying to end it, instead we should push it toward humanism. To me, pushing it toward humanism and calling stupid or arresting its criminals or making taxable or otherwise constraining it, look about the same.

I still hold out hope that generations from now religion will look like a odd blip on human history. Religion doesn't offer humanity much good and because of that I'm hoping it will simply die out.

I think where people like this professor loses sight is time. 2500 years seems like a long time in comparison to our own life spans, bit it is just a tiny spec of dust in the grander scale. Provided we don't annihilate ourselves or succumb to natures whims I don't see a future where religion has as much power as it does now. Even in my lifetime I've been seeing the power shift and if it keeps going in a more sane, secular way humanity will be better off.
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby gorgeous » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:04 pm

religion will end when people have a full understanding of their multi-dimensional experience and death is not the end..
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:07 pm

You mean you'll illuminate this forum - even all of humanity - for as long as it exists?
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby gorgeous » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:11 pm

in body...then out of body after death....I'll be the one pinching you as you try to sleep.... :D
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:23 pm

:lol:

Beware the Pinscher!
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby xouper » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:24 pm

gorgeous wrote:in body...then out of body after death....I'll be the one pinching you as you try to sleep.... :D

You can do that?

If so, you could be the first to get JREF's million dollars.

I say go for it. Prove those narrow-minded people at JREF just how the universe really works. And make a pile of cash doing it.

:thumbsup:

:pc:

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:35 pm

Hey, I was going to say that!

And then forgot... :blush:


Well, so much for a consciousness without a brain. It won't even run well with one.



(At least I think I got one. I think, therefore I think, right?)
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:42 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Hey, I was going to say that!

And then forgot... :blush:


Well, so much for a consciousness without a brain. It won't even run well with one.



(At least I think I got one. I think, therefore I think, right?)

Well, obviously, you projected your thoughts into Xouper's brain. Saved wear and tear on your typing fingers. I'd say that was pretty smart!
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby gorgeous » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:50 pm

xouper wrote:
gorgeous wrote:in body...then out of body after death....I'll be the one pinching you as you try to sleep.... :D

You can do that?

If so, you could be the first to get JREF's million dollars.

I say go for it. Prove those narrow-minded people at JREF just how the universe really works. And make a pile of cash doing it.

:thumbsup:

:pc:

-----------------people who've had alien contact sometimes say a non-physical being pokes them at times when they sleep...so...I bet I could pinch some people.... :)
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby xouper » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:50 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Hey, I was going to say that!

Well, obviously, you projected your thoughts into Xouper's brain.

Ah, so that's where that thought came from. Thanks.

That kind of talent could be useful in a lot of ways.

"These are not the droids you're looking for."

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:00 pm

xouper wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Hey, I was going to say that!

Well, obviously, you projected your thoughts into Xouper's brain.

Ah, so that's where that thought came from. Thanks.

That kind of talent could be useful in a lot of ways.

"These are not the droids you're looking for."

Eggs can be our secret weapon when the Illuminati come for us "These are not the skeptics you are looking for".
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby xouper » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:01 pm

gorgeous wrote:-----------------people who've had alien contact sometimes say a non-physical being pokes them at times when they sleep...so...I bet I could pinch some people.... :)

Have you read any of Robert Monroe's books?

  • Journeys Out of the Body (1971)
  • Far Journeys (1985)
  • Ultimate Journey (1994)

He mentions an OBE pinching incident in one of them (I forget which one).

Fascinating reading, but totally lacking any usable evidence.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:33 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Hey, I was going to say that!

And then forgot... :blush:


Well, so much for a consciousness without a brain. It won't even run well with one.



(At least I think I got one. I think, therefore I think, right?)

Well, obviously, you projected your thoughts into Xouper's brain. Saved wear and tear on your typing fingers. I'd say that was pretty smart!

And that's why it was gone, too. I gave it away. :mrgreen:

OlegTheBatty wrote:
xouper wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Hey, I was going to say that!

Well, obviously, you projected your thoughts into Xouper's brain.

Ah, so that's where that thought came from. Thanks.

That kind of talent could be useful in a lot of ways.

"These are not the droids you're looking for."

Eggs can be our secret weapon when the Illuminati come for us "These are not the skeptics you are looking for".


yw, xouper.

And I'm in!


Watch out for Illuminati creatures running around in circles and looking for their... umm, what was it again?... Pen! Yes, their keys. Right.
.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:42 pm

Uh oh, I feel Lausten shaking his head and rolling his eyes.





:moped: Ciao!
.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby gorgeous » Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:09 am

xouper wrote:
gorgeous wrote:-----------------people who've had alien contact sometimes say a non-physical being pokes them at times when they sleep...so...I bet I could pinch some people.... :)

Have you read any of Robert Monroe's books?

  • Journeys Out of the Body (1971)
  • Far Journeys (1985)
  • Ultimate Journey (1994)

He mentions an OBE pinching incident in one of them (I forget which one).

Fascinating reading, but totally lacking any usable evidence.

--------I have read them....didn't remember that one...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:22 am

Ah, but your consciousness did! :-P


Or is it just your brain pulling stuff out of it's deep and loaded nooks and crannies...
.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Lausten » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:01 am

gorgeous wrote:religion will end when people have a full understanding of their multi-dimensional experience and death is not the end..

Eggs is right. Here I was all excited to see 18 responses to my little post, and then after Out of Breath's brilliant comment, nothing but the usual. Not that the usual isn't infinitely entertaining.

Gorgeous, if you are talking about something people currently aren't aware of and can't demonstrate, but somehow you know what it is, that's religion. If it becomes something we all know and can access, then you're right, that will be the end of it as a religion. So the question really is, how then shall we live? Do we close our eyes real tight and believe real hard that we will gain understanding of our multi-dimensional selves? Or do we live as if this is the only life we get and we should make the most of it?
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby gorgeous » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:28 am

you can do either if you like....you can also attempt obe's and if you achieve out of bodyness you could make faster progress and understanding....
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:40 am

gorgeous wrote:...you can also attempt obe's and if you achieve out of bodyness you could make faster progress and understanding....

I tried for a long time, but gave up after failing to get sufficient confirmation that I was actually out of body and not just imagining it. But I'm willing to change my view if new evidence demands it.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:54 am

Reading your blog, Lausten, I couldn't help thinking how it must have never crossed the mind of those who rejected certain parts of their religion and fought for the right to not only adhere to their own understanding of it, but also to share it with others, and that with that, they actually opened the doors for those who ended up rejecting it altogether.

Or, at least, I cannot see that total freedom to choose was in any way their goal?


ETA I guess what I'm trying to say is that for them, choosing good would have meant choosing God?
.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Lausten » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:56 am

gorgeous wrote:you can do either if you like....you can also attempt obe's and if you achieve out of bodyness you could make faster progress and understanding....

I told you before, but it bears repeating. I had a spontaneous obe while listening to Pink Floyd while lying on my back. That one was most likely just falling asleep, but then I had one after a long day of hiking at a cabin. Again, I just fell asleep, my eyes were closed, but this time, I was all the way outside the cabin and didn't experience body as lying on a bunk. I standing next to the cabin, looking to its front. I took a few "steps", but couldn't maintain it after that and returned to normal consciousness. I borrowed a book on the subject from some friends in the Psychic Church and tried the exercises but couldn't do it again. One of the many experiments that led me to realize I was wasting my time.
Last edited by Lausten on Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Lausten » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:03 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
ETA I guess what I'm trying to say is that for them, choosing good would have meant choosing God?

I know what you mean. It seems anyone should get that from as far back as when they read the Torah. You can see the changing theology spelled out in the stories. At least the Romans, who accepted each new King as a new God, could see that Godliness was gained by first gaining power on earth, it makes more sense. Even the switch to the messiah follows some sort of logic, although there are a lot of problems with matching up the various candidates to the prophecies, but then, the constant changes to how Jesus did it and what his words meant, how can you not see the human invention of that?
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby gorgeous » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:07 am

on obe failure...some do have mental blocks...they aren't ready for it...at the Monroe Institue some who very much wanted an obe failed while some who doubted it was possible had an instant experience...
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:19 am

gorgeous wrote:on obe failure...some do have mental blocks...they aren't ready for it...at the Monroe Institue some who very much wanted an obe failed while some who doubted it was possible had an instant experience...

The Monroe Institute is uniquely positioned to produce some solid scientific research about OBEs, and yet they choose not to. I'm very disappointed that they choose instead to produce junk science. Not surprised, just disappointed.

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Gord » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:00 am

xouper wrote:
gorgeous wrote:...you can also attempt obe's and if you achieve out of bodyness you could make faster progress and understanding....

I tried for a long time, but gave up after failing to get sufficient confirmation that I was actually out of body and not just imagining it. But I'm willing to change my view if new evidence demands it.

You weren't drunk enough. Try drinking one shot of beer per minute for 100 minutes. When I was in university, this was called "doing the centurion", and a lot of good people left their bodies only to come back and find them inhabited by idiots.
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Doubting Thomas » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:56 pm

Lausten wrote:I went to a talk recently by a local professor, mostly a Russian philosophy expert, but he talked about how Augustine suppressed the more humanistic aspects of Christianity, and how they eventually came back and helped start the Enlightenment. Problematic for sure. But it was refreshing to here a believer completely demolish the Catholic Church and admit to all its failings. It led to my latest blog. Enjoy.

You may have unwittingly put the good professor in a difficult position. He is undoubtedly familiar with the writings of the 18th century philosophers such as Immanuel Kant. I think most, during this period were deists and critical of the church. They felt that moral values were important for mankind and that the source of this learning was irrelevant in regard to whether it was derived from dogma or construction of concepts. In either case, it is beneficial to society. Most intelligent people will figure this out for themselves and probably won't make an issue of it, but that those who do are fun to watch. I find the following words of Kant somewhat humorous for the same reason.


What, then, is to be done, especially in view of the danger which would thus seem to threaten the best interests of mankind? Nothing is more natural, nothing is more reasonable, than the decision which we are hereby called upon to make. Leave such thinkers free to take their own line. If they exhibit talent, if they initiate new and profound enquiries, in a word, if they show reason, reason always stands to gain. If we resort to other means than those of untrammeled reason, if we raise the cry of high treason, and act as if we were summoning the vulgar to extinguish a conflagration -- the vulgar who have no understanding of such subtle enquiries -- we make ourselves ridiculous.

For the question at issue is not as to what, in these enquiries, is beneficial or detrimental to the best interests of mankind, but only how far reason can advance by means of speculation that abstracts from all interests, and whether such speculation can count for anything, or must not rather be given up in exchange for the practical.

Instead, therefore, of rushing into the fight, sword in hand, we should rather play the part of the peaceable onlooker, from the safe seat of the critic. The struggle is indeed toilsome to the combatants, but for us can be entertaining; and its outcome certain to be quite bloodless -- must be of advantage as contributing to our theoretical insight. For it is indeed absurd to look to reason for enlightenment, and yet to prescribe beforehand which side she must necessarily favour. Besides, reason is already of itself so confined and held within limits by reason, that we have no need to call out the guard, with a view to bringing the civil power to bear upon that party whose alarming superiority may seem to us to be dangerous. In this dialectic no victory is gained that need give us cause for anxiety.
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. – William Shakespeare

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Lausten » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:10 pm

gorgeous wrote:on obe failure...some do have mental blocks...they aren't ready for it...at the Monroe Institue some who very much wanted an obe failed while some who doubted it was possible had an instant experience...

Doubt or lack of it should not be a factor for success. I can doubt that I'll be able to fix the water supply to my refrigerator ice maker. But if I get some advice, read something, and try a couple things, I might do it anyway. I would also then be able to explain to others what I did and to show them. Robert Monroe Institute can only continue to take people's money by continuing to sell them on this idea that it's not explainable.
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Lausten » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:22 pm

Doubting Thomas wrote: In either case, it is beneficial to society.

The professor did indeed refer to Kant in his talk. I'll need to review the video when it is posted, but I think he simply ascribed Christian sources to Kant's humanist words. He also cherry picked, critiquing Kant and Hume's less humanist statements, but avoiding any mention that Erasmus talked about hell.

As for your Kant quote, it lost me in the last sentence, " In this dialectic no victory is gained that need give us cause for anxiety." If I understood the rest, he is saying if reason is applied, no matter how or where, we can hope it leads to betterment. The catch is, we don't know, because saying we know would be unreasonable. So we can only sit on the sidelines and wait. I think we've made that mistake after Kant, then again after Scopes, then again when Billy Graham found his way in the White House. We kept expecting religion to just die out on its own. But it keeps bobbing up.
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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Doubting Thomas » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:40 pm

Lausten wrote:
Doubting Thomas wrote: In either case, it is beneficial to society.

The professor did indeed refer to Kant in his talk. I'll need to review the video when it is posted, but I think he simply ascribed Christian sources to Kant's humanist words. He also cherry picked, critiquing Kant and Hume's less humanist statements, but avoiding any mention that Erasmus talked about hell.

As for your Kant quote, it lost me in the last sentence, " In this dialectic no victory is gained that need give us cause for anxiety."

I think he means that the debate will continue and nobody will ever win the debate because
both parties may agree to the concepts of morality, but disagree concerning the origins. Whether morality originated with a single primordial being or the product of universal reason is unimportant.

Also, I read the following on your web site:
"Most modern people who go to church don’t want to engage in theological debate because they don’t see a position there worth defending."

They may not want to engage in theological debate, but sometimes not for the reasons you might think. If the primary function of religion is to teach moral values, then stories and sermons are an important function to that end. In most types of public speaking, stories are a useful tool for reinforcing an important point of a speech. I suspect that this has been true throughout history. To challenge the legitimacy of a story in this circumstance would simply appear foolish. When a person reaches maturity, he often begins to understand this but tends to remain silent as the purpose should appear obvious.

Please consider the words of Kant regarding this topic:
The opponent of religion is indeed, in his own way, no less dogmatic, but he affords me a welcome opportunity of applying and, in this or that respect, amending the principles of my Critique, while at the same time I need be in no fear of these principles being in the least degree endangered. But must not the young, at least, when entrusted to our academical teaching, be warned against such writings, and preserved from a premature knowledge of such dangerous propositions, until their faculty of judgment is mature, or rather until the doctrine which we seek to instill into them has taken such firm root, that they are able effectively to withstand all persuasion to contrary views, from whatever quarter it may come?
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. – William Shakespeare

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Re: Why I keep doing this

Postby Lausten » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:14 pm

That one has Kant walking a fine line between matching concepts to be taught to a person's maturity and level and blatant indoctrination. I'm not familiar with Kant advocating indoctrination, so I'm going to assume he didn't mean that.

Generally, religion is politics. I'd need a few thousand more words to flesh that out, but it's pretty obvious. The idea of creating a moral system is essentially moral law, "law" being the key word. We teach morality using stories, then we explain how those morals are codified into law. That we continue to refine the law and change it based on new information is not some sort of never ending argument, it's progress.

The "position not worth defending" I was referring to was before the statement, the ones about Adam being sinful or not or if he could make free will choices. Augustine and others of his time invented theology. Before that you just used God stories to make your point. If they didn't fit, you made up a new story. Regular folks could then discuss the new story, like we talk about Star Wars. But these guys, the theologians just keep creating more convoluted illogic about the existing stories and then punish us if we don't get it.
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