Trying on Letting Go

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Lausten
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Trying on Letting Go

Postby Lausten » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:01 pm

At first this sounded silly. I thought it would be like one of those “Atheist Sundays” some churches do. But now that I’ve read a little of his words it sounds like it could interesting. I’ll definitely be following his blog. And he starts off on January 1 with a link to Julia Sweeney's TED talk.
http://yearwithoutgod.com/2014/01/01/julia-sweeney-on-letting-go-of-god/

The trappings of theism are pretty easy to “try on”. There is a nagging suspicion throughout the atheist community and I’m sure within the theists, that most people are extremely weak believers. Historically, churches haven’t had to care, because either they or the community would sanction non-believers harshly. Now that those sanctions are lifting, they have to be nice to you if you have doubts, they even have to offer classes using books by Marcus Borg or at least Bonhoffer.

But still, as long as you say you are praying and keep giving and occasionally give an amen, they’re fine. Ryan started his journey in pretty standard fashion, by questioning first the really crazy stuff, like End Times prophecy. Now he’s dumping the trappings, the church going and praying. What’s really got him in trouble is saying he won’t consider God as a reason for natural events. Although that’s not entirely clear, so we’ll see.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Doubting Thomas » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:18 pm

Lausten wrote:At first this sounded silly. I thought it would be like one of those “Atheist Sundays” some churches do. But now that I’ve read a little of his words it sounds like it could interesting. I’ll definitely be following his blog. And he starts off on January 1 with a link to Julia Sweeney's TED talk.
http://yearwithoutgod.com/2014/01/01/julia-sweeney-on-letting-go-of-god/

The trappings of theism are pretty easy to “try on”. There is a nagging suspicion throughout the atheist community and I’m sure within the theists, that most people are extremely weak believers. Historically, churches haven’t had to care, because either they or the community would sanction non-believers harshly. Now that those sanctions are lifting, they have to be nice to you if you have doubts, they even have to offer classes using books by Marcus Borg or at least Bonhoffer.

But still, as long as you say you are praying and keep giving and occasionally give an amen, they’re fine. Ryan started his journey in pretty standard fashion, by questioning first the really crazy stuff, like End Times prophecy. Now he’s dumping the trappings, the church going and praying. What’s really got him in trouble is saying he won’t consider God as a reason for natural events. Although that’s not entirely clear, so we’ll see.


I was initially drawn to this forum because I was interested in learning the views of those who call themselves atheists. It would seem to me that one, who has no belief in God, would remain quietly indifferent; and I suspect most do. I find that he who publicly declares himself an atheist and the religious zealot are equally disconcerting. By accepting such a label, you exposure yourself to any and all the definitions and indignities of others. How does one profit from that?

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The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. – William Shakespeare

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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby fromthehills » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:55 pm

Doubting Thomas wrote: It would seem to me that one, who has no belief in God, would remain quietly indifferent; and I suspect most do. I find that he who publicly declares himself an atheist and the religious zealot are equally disconcerting.



Ah, yes. If Christians were following the principle of meek and mild, there would be no reason for we of no faith to be so boisterous. When you have creationists trying to push themselves into every nook and cranny of our lives, one must voice their rejection to it loudly and insistently.

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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:35 pm

Normally, I don't ever have a reason to say, Thanks but no thanks until approached or infringed upon.

And I also don't go around knocking on doors or handing out pamphlets in an attempt to talk others out of their beliefs. Or troll their websites.

But am in no way opposed to a sensible and civilized conversation with a believer.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby kennyc » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:20 pm

I swear "#$*&$(#&%(&@#$()" I posted this somewhere but many it was another forum....anyway....I suspect this is just a publicity stunt or etc. I'll check back at the end of the year, eh?

And Thomas, if you'd get the Theists to shut the {!#%@} up and stay out or my life, politics and society I'd have no reason to make anything of it, but as it is the {!#%@} theists are ruining our country and the world. It must be stopped.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Lausten » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:37 pm

Doubting Thomas wrote:It would seem to me that one, who has no belief in God, would remain quietly indifferent; and I suspect most do. I find that he who publicly declares himself an atheist and the religious zealot are equally disconcerting..

The problem I have with this is the same problem I have with libertarianism, communism, anarchists and apathetics, it assumes the world is the way it is for no particular reason. It assumes that we have all the things we have because people didn't mess with the status quo, they just quietly did their jobs and everything turned out fine.

But that's not how it happened. For the last several thousand years of human history, someone told you what to believe and how to act and if you didn't do it, you had to leave the safe confines of the community. And if your little tribe had figured how to live in perfect harmony, eventually someone came around from somewhere else and told you who to worship and who was king.

If you want a peaceful world where it doesn't matter what god you believe in, you have to fight for that. Lucky for us, that work is has mostly been done. Not so lucky, most of us have become complacent and the people who know how it works have found their way into government and the airwaves.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:42 pm

kennyc wrote:I swear "#$*&$(#&%(&@#$()" I posted this somewhere...

You mean this?
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby kennyc » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:56 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
kennyc wrote:I swear "#$*&$(#&%(&@#$()" I posted this somewhere...

You mean this?



Yeah, there ya go.... Thankeee!
:mrgreen:

I was soooooooo confused.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Gord » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:20 am

Lausten wrote:...libertarianism, communism, anarchists and apathetics....

Hey, how'd this turn into being about me?! :P
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby kennyc » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:25 am

Gord wrote:
Lausten wrote:...libertarianism, communism, anarchists and apathetics....

Hey, how'd this turn into being about me?! :P


Just lucky I guess.
;)
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Lausten » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:30 am

Gord wrote:
Lausten wrote:...libertarianism, communism, anarchists and apathetics....

Hey, how'd this turn into being about me?! :P

It's all about you Gord
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Gord » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:39 am

Lausten wrote:It's all about you Gord

I made it that way as a joke about how I often make things about myself. It's fractal humour.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Doubting Thomas » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:41 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Normally, I don't ever have a reason to say, Thanks but no thanks until approached or infringed upon.

And I also don't go around knocking on doors or handing out pamphlets in an attempt to talk others out of their beliefs. Or troll their websites.

But am in no way opposed to a sensible and civilized conversation with a believer.


I think I am beginning to understand. I liken it to voter registration. If you register with a particular political party then you are assumed to support all of the many political causes. They feel that this gives them permission to pester you with letters, Personal visits and phone calls, usually with the intent of raising money to support of one or more of these causes. The best protection is to register as independent or unaffiliated.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby fromthehills » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:49 pm

What?

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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby kennyc » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:50 pm

fromthehills wrote:What?



Who?
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Doubting Thomas » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:40 pm

fromthehills wrote:What?



Oh, sorry – I was referring to my question in post #2
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:01 pm

DT, you seem to think atheism, or nonbelief, is another belief system?

Nonbelief is just what it says. No belief in any being and any story that can't be proven and that does nothing to make itself known, or to seem more real, or to deliver what its sellers promise. It does not seem to exist.

Otherwise my life is just like that of everyone else, so to speak. Except for the time and money wasted on an organization which is based on nothing but human imagination.

You speak of accepting or giving oneself a label. I do no such thing. Others label me. I'm merely not part of what "you" are doing. I answer/speak up when put into a situation where that becomes necessary.

I also don't do figure skating. What does that make me?
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:10 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
I also don't do figure skating. What does that make me?


Gord?? :scratch:
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby kennyc » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:23 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
I also don't do figure skating. What does that make me?


Gord?? :scratch:



:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Austin Harper » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:05 pm

Doubting Thomas wrote:If you register with a particular political party then you are assumed to support all of the many political causes.

I'm registered as a Republican but only so I can vote in their primaries since that's really all that matters here in Kansas. There's basically no chance the Democrats or Independents will win anything.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Doubting Thomas » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:30 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:DT, you seem to think atheism, or nonbelief, is another belief system?

Nonbelief is just what it says. No belief in any being and any story that can't be proven and that does nothing to make itself known, or to seem more real, or to deliver what its sellers promise. It does not seem to exist.

Otherwise my life is just like that of everyone else, so to speak. Except for the time and money wasted on an organization which is based on nothing but human imagination.

You speak of accepting or giving oneself a label. I do no such thing. Others label me. I'm merely not part of what "you" are doing. I answer/speak up when put into a situation where that becomes necessary.

I also don't do figure skating. What does that make me?


I did not intend for my comments to be aimed you particularly, merely trying to make some sense of my observations regarding the many remarks on this topic.
The term “religion” is typically associated with a belief in deity, but it can also apply to set of beliefs, values and attitudes. A person who is devoted to a particular activity, cause or a strongly held belief can be considered religious. The term “atheist” is simply one who does not believe in god or a deity. As I indicated, it would seem that such a person would remain indifferent and aloof rather than to seek out people with opposing views, which seems apparent in the opening post of this topic.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby kennyc » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:38 pm

Doubting Thomas wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:DT, you seem to think atheism, or nonbelief, is another belief system?

Nonbelief is just what it says. No belief in any being and any story that can't be proven and that does nothing to make itself known, or to seem more real, or to deliver what its sellers promise. It does not seem to exist.

Otherwise my life is just like that of everyone else, so to speak. Except for the time and money wasted on an organization which is based on nothing but human imagination.

You speak of accepting or giving oneself a label. I do no such thing. Others label me. I'm merely not part of what "you" are doing. I answer/speak up when put into a situation where that becomes necessary.

I also don't do figure skating. What does that make me?


I did not intend for my comments to be aimed you particularly, merely trying to make some sense of my observations regarding the many remarks on this topic.
The term “religion” is typically associated with a belief in deity, but it can also apply to set of beliefs, values and attitudes. A person who is devoted to a particular activity, cause or a strongly held belief can be considered religious. The term “atheist” is simply one who does not believe in god or a deity. As I indicated, it would seem that such a person would remain indifferent and aloof rather than to seek out people with opposing views, which seems apparent in the opening post of this topic.



and that is where you are wrong. If the religious people had followed that advice it would not be necessary to show them the error of their ways.

As it stands they are destroying our civilization and something must be done about it.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:51 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
I also don't do figure skating. What does that make me?


Gord?? :scratch:

:-P
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Lausten » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:39 pm

Doubting Thomas wrote: As I indicated, it would seem that such a person would remain indifferent and aloof rather than to seek out people with opposing views, which seems apparent in the opening post of this topic.

As I already responded
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Gord » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:15 am

For the record, I cut a mean figure eight.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:06 pm

Gord wrote:For the record, I cut a mean figure eight.

Would you cut one if it wasn't mean?
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Gord » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:04 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gord wrote:For the record, I cut a mean figure eight.

Would you cut one if it wasn't mean?

Only when I'm drinking.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:40 pm

Hmmm... do you have any doubts about your beliefs? Do you think you might be willing to drop them?


I'd think if that's not the case, it would seem more like a tease than a real exercise?


(Edit: I used "exercise" because I can't think of a better word.)
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:45 pm

I have to say I'm a bit at a loss on this turf. Sure, I've discussed my side (the "where's the evidence" side :-P) but, OTOH, only raised questions and applied logic in conversations, but not actively tried to talk a believer out of anything...

In this your case, I would actually ask, have you asked Him about this? (capitalized for clarification), and I would be really interested in hearing the answer, if there's one forthcoming and not too personal to be shared. :-D
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:50 pm

I think you mean that your strong qualities are being reinforced, but your metaphor sounds like a manipulative human relationship to me. :shock:

You seem to like to serve and be helpful, but also to be treated well and with respect. From my human, non-believing angle, that quality is being played on, and the "other one" is there to keep you in check and in line and subservient and submissive.

Honestly, that is not how I would have imagined the shining Logos, miracle working and unconditionally loving Prince of Peace, but his OT daddy (or rather, those who wrote the stories).
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby HghrSymmetry » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:28 am

...
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:30 am

I had a another thought, A#... you stated in regards to doubts you have a "few very important weighty ones" and I was wondering if you'd want to reinforce those, or focus on battling the strongest convictions you hold. Or work on both. I don't even know if I'd have anything useful to say about that, but maybe some others would chime in and offer an idea or two.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby HghrSymmetry » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:32 am


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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:50 am

Mom went to wake her daughter for church one Sunday morning. When she knocked on the door, the daughter wailed, “I’m not going!” “Why not?” asked her mother. “I’ll give you two good reasons,” she said. “One, they don’t like me. Two, I don’t like them.” Her mother replied, “I’ll give you two good reasons why YOU WILL go to church. One, you’re 47 years old. Two, you’re the minister!”
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby HghrSymmetry » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:27 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Mom went to wake her daughter for church one Sunday morning. When she knocked on the door, the daughter wailed, “I’m not going!” “Why not?” asked her mother. “I’ll give you two good reasons,” she said. “One, they don’t like me. Two, I don’t like them.” Her mother replied, “I’ll give you two good reasons why YOU WILL go to church. One, you’re 47 years old. Two, you’re the minister!”
:lol:

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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby TJrandom » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:38 am

A-#... Don`t see that I can help much – since I never believed. Though I did go along with the program and was even a Deacon – but only because that is what was expected in a small community (plus the Ministers daughter was putting out). When I eventually did make my lack of belief known, having been cornered so to speak, I took a whole lot of crap and was then targeted for corrective consultations. No problem for me though, since words without belief, are just words. Same as my yard ornaments – shrines for some, but just stone carvings for me.

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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby Lausten » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:43 pm

If you've read the early blogs of Ryan Bell, you've seen some reading suggestions. He was in a more philosophical place than you might be, so his choices might not be right for you.

Joseph Campbell is a good place to start The Power of Myth is available in bits on YouTube. You might have to buy it to get it in its entirety

Julia's movie might be something you can relate to.

These guys are a little more heady, but if you are looking for specific answers to some idea or a response to an author, search their archives.

There's also John Shelby Spong's "Jesus for the non-Religious". I read it thinking I would give it to some non-religious friend, but when I finished it, I pretty much was non-religious.
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:50 pm

Dawn is a beautiful name, and I wouldn't want to use another one. :-D

Just call me Eggs, several here do (some use Scrambs) and I like it. And it fits, cos eggs cracks me up. :easteregg:

Or pick a name that works for you. I might get used to it. :-P


Nice to meet you, Dawn. And much good luck and beauty on your journey! :flower:
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Re: Trying on Letting Go

Postby HghrSymmetry » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:01 pm

A-number wrote:very easy task. You need to give me back the list of books you gave me long time ago, I think I read only 2 off the entire thing.

Ok, I'll look around and see if I can dig up some recommendations.

I met a gorgeous looking American Atheist few months ago. I saw a beautifully tattooed A on the side of his left arm, I asked what it stood for as I thought about Richard Dawkins Logo as it had the same calligraphy, hoping he'd confirm it. At first he said "I am not sure you really wanna know." At that, I got excited :lol: as I lovingly thought 'gotcha', I asked if it stood for RD Logo, that's when he answered "close, it stands for American Atheist.". I told him about you guys and how wonderful and great you are. We parted.

Thank you for the link. Great one. Copied it.


That's interesting you should say that. Last year I saw an employee at work with a very well done Mjolnir tattoo on his shoulder. I almost asked if he was a "Norse pagan" ...but I didn't feel comfortable about asking so I weasled out at the last moment.
lol!



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