A Muslim and an Atheist

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Lausten
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A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby Lausten » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:04 pm

A sermon helper that doesn't tell you what to believe: http://www.milepost100.com

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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:44 pm

Lausten: do you need more than the summary?

"In this short book, Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz invite you to join an urgently needed conversation: Is Islam a religion of peace or war? Is it amenable to reform? Why do so many Muslims seem drawn to extremism? What do words like Islamism, jihadism, and fundamentalism mean in today’s world?"

............and the answer is: BECAUSE THEY ARE RELIGIOUS FUNDIES!!!!
Cant see the forest for the trees.
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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby Gord » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:52 am

Okay, but what makes the RELIGIOUS FUNDIES!!!!?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby Lausten » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:22 pm

I think the conversation basically comes down to, are there good and bad ideas? Can we look at an idea and determine where it might lead?

I had a long conversation with a visiting friend whom I hadn't since my de-conversion, so he was curious. He has some sense of god that I couldn't figure out, but is by no means religious. I tried to explain my belief that you can reason with anyone, even a member of ISIS, maybe not all of them, but enough so we can isolate the crazies. He took the position that everything comes down to force. He doesn't own guns and is otherwise an intelligent and reasonable person, but when it comes to these battles of ideology on the world stage, I think most people don't see the possibility of a solution.
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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:06 pm

Gord wrote:Okay, but what makes the RELIGIOUS FUNDIES!!!!?

Mans ability to think, to be flexible in thinking, to be open to new ideas, to be empathetic with other peoples plight, to be closed down and self centered: all fall on a continuum of applicability. We all have these traits but they all very within an individual. When like minded people find themselves and group together, different attributes get reinforced.

It turns out, conservative, inflexible, My mind is made up and if you don't agree with me you are Evil, is very susceptible to being group reinforced. Fundies group up....non Fundies tend to isolate themselves. There are Fundies in lots of areas of (non) thinking. Religion may be the most known, but there is politics that comes in close. A host of other issues follow on.
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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby Lausten » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:28 pm

WTF is a "continuum of applicability"?
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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby Gord » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:Okay, but what makes the RELIGIOUS FUNDIES!!!!?

Mans ability to think, to be flexible in thinking, to be open to new ideas, to be empathetic with other peoples plight, to be closed down and self centered: all fall on a continuum of applicability. We all have these traits but they all very within an individual. When like minded people find themselves and group together, different attributes get reinforced.

It turns out, conservative, inflexible, My mind is made up and if you don't agree with me you are Evil, is very susceptible to being group reinforced. Fundies group up....non Fundies tend to isolate themselves. There are Fundies in lots of areas of (non) thinking. Religion may be the most known, but there is politics that comes in close. A host of other issues follow on.

I think "their environment" is the better answer.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:21 am

Gord wrote:I think "their environment" is the better answer.

No....its actually worse. The best answer of course is that its interactive between the dna of the person, then home environment, then local culture. but it all starts with the person.

I've always been fascinated by how two different people, say two brothers, will take say an alcoholic father, or one that is physically abusive and one will say they became an alcoholic as a result while the other a tea teetotaler for the same reason. I think this whenever a psychologist is on tv explaining the latest nut job.

My dad was an alcoholic. I didn't drink unitl the military, then I quickly drank too much which made me the life of the party in the Military, but caused problems in the civilian world...so I stopped. Now, I mostly joke about it....while still having a six pack or so about once a month. I can't say I made choices...quitting had no withdrawal to me and getting drunk lost its appeal when work related people around me started taking notice. I think of myself as very lucky....and think I am missing the dna to be an alcoholic.

Oops....why am I not a fundie? That too comes from living with Dad. He blamed everyone but himself for his dissatisfaction with life. I decided very young that he was: "wrong" and that everyone should take responsibility for their own actions. So....why aren't I a Fundie? Ha, ha.....I don't know, but I am a open to new ideas and changing my mind. Again..... very lucky because I didn't have to work hard to achieve that either. Ha, ha....and like alcohol.... at work... my liberalism was somewhat a burden that had to be hidden for my own corporate success.

Life is like that: choices and consequences.
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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:19 am

Lausten wrote:WTF is a "continuum of applicability"?

Some things apply more than others.

From my favorite book:

con·tin·u·um
kənˈtinyo͞oəm/
noun
noun: continuum; plural noun: continua

a continuous sequence in which adjacent elements are not perceptibly different from each other, although the extremes are quite distinct.

and then:

Applicability: applying or capable of being applied; relevant; suitable; appropriate: an applicable rule; a solution that is applicable to the problem.

Which word/idea tripped you up?
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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby Gord » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:23 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:I think "their environment" is the better answer.

No....its actually worse. The best answer of course is that its interactive between the dna of the person, then home environment, then local culture. but it all starts with the person.

I disagree. I think environment is more important than DNA in this instance.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby Lausten » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:34 pm

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:I think "their environment" is the better answer.

No....its actually worse. The best answer of course is that its interactive between the dna of the person, then home environment, then local culture. but it all starts with the person.

I disagree. I think environment is more important than DNA in this instance.

Did anyone catch Frontline last night? It's also available online. A guy went deep into ISIS/Taliban territory with a camera. They let him film "school" for little kids, shorter than a rifle, but they were learning how to use it. Then he interviewed two 13 y.o. boys who had already volunteered for a suicide mission. They had never learned anything except the Koran and guns. They could only answer questions in the most rudimentary terms like "infidels". That'll pretty much override any DNA.
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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:01 am

DNA or environment. Heres my proof: put a cantaloupe into the same environment and assess how it responds to the environment.

Point being: of course dna does not apply...... if you assume away all that applies.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: A Muslim and an Atheist

Postby Gord » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:30 am

bobbo, you "proof" sucks balls.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE


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