Did Man Create God?

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Lausten
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Did Man Create God?

Postby Lausten » Mon May 10, 2010 3:51 pm

Has anyone read "Did Man Create God" by David Comings? I had his website bookmarked for a while, but I hadn't perused it in depth until recently. At first glance, it seemed like the same old same old, nothing that I hadn't considered years ago after listening to Jethro Tull's Aqualung, and it seems like some of the book is that.

Then I came across his term "rational spirituality", the idea that humans, by nature, have a proclivity to create supernatural concepts, so we need to understand that and integrate it with reasonable thinking. It's opposite, irrational spirituality, leads to martyrs and pedophiles. This seems like a step forward in the "God will save us" vs. "Religion causes all our problems" debate.

Is this a book for neurobiologists only? Does he go too far with his conclusions and make claims that aren't supportable?
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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby nmblum88 » Mon May 10, 2010 4:14 pm

"God is everywhere, Daddy.. he is in Daffy (a bath toy) and in the toothpaste.. and he doesn't like it when I wet my pants."

Thus spake Laura G. two and one half years of age, (during bath time, after her first day in nursery school, where she learned, for the first time, from her mat-mate during "happy nappy" time,
a) that her happy, lively, book, music, laughter-filled (and godless) s home was not the world, and,
b) what might be considered by much of the "new" world to be "rational spirituality.".

"Every pulpit is a pillory, in which stands a hired culprit, defending the justice of his own imprisonment. "
Thus spake Robert Green Ingersoll... (and he never even met Anna Beth, the "happy nappy" mat-mate).

Norma Manna Blum
Skepticism:
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby nmblum88 » Mon May 10, 2010 4:35 pm

Lausten wrote:Has anyone read "Did Man Create God" by David Comings? I had his website bookmarked for a while, but I hadn't perused it in depth until recently. At first glance, it seemed like the same old same old, nothing that I hadn't considered years ago after listening to Jethro Tull's Aqualung, and it seems like some of the book is that.

Then I came across his term "rational spirituality", the idea that humans, by nature, have a proclivity to create supernatural concepts, so we need to understand that and integrate it with reasonable thinking. It's opposite, irrational spirituality, leads to martyrs and pedophiles. This seems like a step forward in the "God will save us" vs. "Religion causes all our problems" debate.

Is this a book for neurobiologists only? Does he go too far with his conclusions and make claims that aren't supportable?


I don't know... but as I never met a neurobiologist who thinks in subjective terms like "god" and certainly not of "being saved."
Have you?
Most neurobiologist think, rather, OBJECTIVELY; in terms of what studies of the animal nervous system OBJECTIVELY reveal.... OR fail to reveal.

But I just made a 5 phone call survey, and while the sample is admittedly small, and was done within that hot bed of atheistic communism that is the National Institutres of Health in Bethesda, Maryland, . none of my respondents had every heard of the book, or planned to seek it out after having your message read to them.
Survey results:
Two laughed out loud...
One said..." I wish I had time to fool around with such nonsense.."
One said..."Have you seen "Iron Man 2" yet? I
One said, "I haven't had time to read any fiction since 1973."

Norma Manna Blum
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby rrichar911 » Tue May 11, 2010 4:25 am

I think a better question is,

did man create the universe?
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby nmblum88 » Tue May 11, 2010 12:13 pm

rrichar911 wrote:I think a better question is,

did man create the universe?

LOL... You're kidding, right?
Because if not.......it is possible that you have "desperation" confused with "depth."
(And to give you appropriate credit, that's not so easy to do...)

Norma Manna Blum.....
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby Lausten » Tue May 11, 2010 1:56 pm

I think I know what your opinions are based on the brief explanation I gave. I was hoping someone had read it, or maybe knew something about the author.

I have found a little information on him, he self publishes, his book on Turrets Syndrome received some bad reveiws due to bad methodology, and in some online reviews people have said, "this is going to be considered a classic in neurobiology". All of those are red flags. On the other hand, Michael Shermer liked it, it was reviewed in Skeptic magazine, but the article seems to be archived. Other reviews commend his encyclopedic knowledge, and I haven't found one yet that refutes his methods.

Dr. Comings original interest in the topic stems from hearing about Intelligent Design and realizing what complete garbage it was. Knowing the science as he does, he could immediately pick out the flawed math and mistatements of facts. He started writing about that and just kept finding more to say. His use of the term "spirituality" might be for marketing, but his definition is not anything supernatural, it is the feeling of connectedness that we have with our kin, our community and our environment that he is talking about. He is not the only one who is OBJECTIVELY studying how this trait may be genetic, and may have helped us survive and thrive.

What I got from a couple interviews is that his answer to the question in the title is obviously yes. This sense of connectedness needed an explanation so God was invented. In today's terms, he looks at the range of how people describe it, from simply enjoying being alive to believing they are being directed by God to kill. Obviously he prefers the just enjoying life end of that spectrum, but is willing to accept some forms of Unitarianism and maybe a little more. That is the "rational spirituality" part.

It seems to be a healthier, and more realistic approach than calling anyone who goes to church crazy or dangerous. Many people are born with this sense of connectedness and it is probably a good thing. We shouldn't consider anyone who calls themselves "spiritual" mentally ill, anymore than we should be throwing schizoprhenic people into snake pits.
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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby nmblum88 » Tue May 11, 2010 7:41 pm

First and above all, noone here...and I DO read most of the messages....has ever suggested that everyone who goes to church is crazy or dangerous.....
Nor that people who calll themselves "spiritual" (whatever that is) are all mentally ill..
However, it is not entirely unreasonable for someone who not only believes in the efficacy of modern medicine and the enormous progress that man has made (despite errors and setbacks), as well as being educated (either by their own concentrated efforts or by formal means) in philosophy, and the sciences, to either be suspicious (or laugh out loud) at the idea that Jesus cures polimyalgia , or answers prayers (apparently at random) that deflect Death, when Jesus can't even deflect the devil?
Most people who are not only respectable in this forum but extremely and enviably able to express in writing EXACTLY what they mean, even those most critical of religion as a force for anything resembling good, do not refer the the religious as UNIVERSALLY crazy or dangerous...
If anything, the significant criticisms are relegated to institutions rather than individuals...
Of course, if someone writes something here that is clearly outside the bounds of rational, literate, or informed conversation....tinged perhaps with the hysteria that is pervasive in today's rather high-strung religious cum political environment, that person is fair game for dismissal as less than cogent
And, yes, dangerous as any ill- informed visitor let loose, say in a a weapons armory.. or a fireworks factory.
Why?
Well, because they represent a regressive element in society....of the kind that allows us to ignore real signs of danger to our health and welfare and the perpetuation of our Planet as a habitat.
Do you think it is unfair to tale seriously those who clearly don't know the difference between what constitutes science and what constitutes the equivalent of doing a rain dance to alleviate drought?
What you are really asking is that because religion is on the table as a subject of discussion and exploration, that everyone agree that "anything goes..." that no one should not be called to account for whatever far -fetched and even patently and provenly false avowals come to mind and make their way to our screens.
And that any foolish, as well as unenlightened remark and suggestion be treated with the same respect that one would give to the canon of Western civilization which they seem to know so little about..
There are certain things that are NOT a matter of opinion... and I'm afraid for your sake that biology, chemistry, and physics are among them...
And making claims for the bible that have long ago been discarded by verifiable history, as well as actual geography can't be passed over lightly either...
If you speak, expect to be spoken to.
It's only fair....

Norma Manna Blum
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby rrichar911 » Wed May 12, 2010 3:18 am

nmblum wrote:
rrichar911 wrote:I think a better question is,

did man create the universe?

LOL... You're kidding, right?
Because if not.......it is possible that you have "desperation" confused with "depth."
(And to give you appropriate credit, that's not so easy to do...)

Norma Manna Blum.....



No I'm not kidding.

Assume that man does not stop compiling knowledge, and at some point in his evolution comes to understand , life the universe and everything, including how the universe was formed, how to travel in time , etc.

He then goes back in time , and creates the universe. It might actually be easy to do as the total energy required is zero. (We already know that much about it).

Thus being the creator of the universe, having considerable knowledge, existing "before" the begining of this universe, having the ability to tavel through time, he knows the future and past, and thus he fits the defn of God.

Thus man not only invented God, he is God.

If there is not a logical flaw in a theory it has a chance of being right. It is however not a "good" scientific theory as it cannot be proven wrong at this point in time.

If reasonable thinking means thinking that conforms to our common sense, then it has shown to be virtually usless when applied to such deeper questions as , what is the nature of existence.

If it means conforming to that which is logical, you might use it to get on down the road a bit farther.

One can be objective, open minded, stretching the imagination. Which is to say that not ruling something out is different than buying it as being the case.

The most objective thing to do when one does not have the answers, is to say, I don't know, rather than accuse other people of having phychological problems, who entertain the uncommon, for doing so might be nothing more than the desire to feel superior to them.

It might be them, who are right.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby rrichar911 » Wed May 12, 2010 3:43 am

What we have to go on is the scientific method. We have an experment to observe. The creation of the most productive and just nation in the history of man kind, America, and the beliefs of the people who created it. Being not only the founding fathers but all the folks who helped build it.

The person who does not like those beliefs will point to all the flaws, mistakes, and pit falls, while ignoring the over all result and the fact that in spite of all the faults, the result over whealmed them, thus standing as testament to their validity.

That is what an unobjective person will do, as an objective person will be required to apply the scientific method and judge the theory by the results.

Thus the answer to:
This seems like a step forward in the "God will save us" vs. "Religion causes all our problems" debate.


should be apparent.

People see what is in their heart. They project it onto the world in which they live. They apply what ever they please constructively or destructively according to their inner most self.

Which is to say that religion or a gun in the hands of one person may be constructive, while in the hands of another destructive.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby seymore » Fri May 14, 2010 3:01 pm

It seems to me that it is a leap of faith, unsupported by any science whatsoever to conclude that the Universe is an atrifact, to wit: that it was created by any entity at all. In order to make that assertion you should have some postulate as to how it was done and some replicatable scientific evidence to back it up.
I suspect that you have none of the latter or the creationists would be beating down everyones door to get us to sign onto their world view. There is no direct evidence for the universe to be an artifact and if you wish to say that " It must have had a creator", then so must your creator have had a creator. I beleive it is called a tautology. I'm amases that you have been on here as long as you have and not picked up on this issue.
If there is a God how could he/she/it be created out of nothing?

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby Martin Brock » Fri May 14, 2010 4:01 pm

seymore wrote:It seems to me that it is a leap of faith, unsupported by any science whatsoever to conclude that the Universe is an atrifact, to wit: that it was created by any entity at all.

An "artifact" is created by a human being, by definition. The Uni-verse is the one thing of which only one can possibly exist, because it encompasses everything. The Universe cannot be created by something outside of the Universe, because nothing is outside of the Universe, by definition. Since God has the same property, God is the Universe and is self-creating. God is being itself, not a being.

In order to make that assertion you should have some postulate as to how it was done and some replicatable scientific evidence to back it up.

The assertions above require no replicable scientific evidence, because they're tautologies. They're analytic a priori assertions. They aren't empirical. They create a linguistic framework in which empirically meaningful statements can be expressed.

There is no direct evidence for the universe to be an artifact and if you wish to say that " It must have had a creator", then so must your creator have had a creator. I beleive it is called a tautology.

"A creator must have had a creator" is not a tautology and doesn't make sense to me empirically either. Why does a creator require a creator?

Men do not create God, but men create descriptions of God.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby nmblum88 » Sat May 15, 2010 1:23 am

Martin Brock:
The Uni-verse is the one thing of which only one can possibly exist, because it encompasses everything. The Universe cannot be created by something outside of the Universe, because nothing is outside of the Universe, by definition. Since God has the same property, God is the Universe and is self-creating. God is being itself, not a being.


Wha'???
Wha'????
What's the man saying, Ma?
Doesn't he mean, like... uh... MAYBE?
Like... uh... for those who reject the notion of god, we may really have lost our own last known address?
Since when does one explain the Universe to a non-believer (a realist) in terms of god, what god is and what he is capable of?
As if not only a god - but the one YOU understand is inarguably at the root of the existence of the only universe we actually know of?

Martin, where in what you refer to as the Uni-verse, do YOU live ??
What language do they speak there?

And where did you develop your rather remarkable relationship with cosmogony , not to mention the other sciences that you so often treat with such a devil-may-care insouciance, as if knowledge itself was something that you could pick up from the air, simply because you wanted to have it?
Norma Manna Blum
Skepticism:
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby Charles Wild » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:16 pm

Yes, mankind created God.

Generally speaking, the word - God - comes from the first sentence of the Old Testament of the Bible so the word - God - was invented by Hebrew/Jewish monks (religious theater actors/religious story tellers/whatever).

The Bible can be looked at literally:

KJV Bible.

The Bible can be looked at metaphorically/metaphysically:

The Pilgrim's Progress book by John Bunyan (told as a dream)
New Thought - modern metaphysics - Charles and Myrtle Fillmore

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:20 am

Charles Wild wrote:God - was invented by Hebrew/Jewish monks (religious theater actors/religious story tellers/whatever)
Not exactly. Mrs God was edited out. It was a polytheist religion that evolved and was edited.

Charles Wild wrote: The Bible can be looked at metaphorically/metaphysically
Well if you wan't to, but what's the point? The metaphors are pretty bad. How does killing millions of innocent children in the flood teach us anything good? Adolph Hitler had the same plan. I also read Mein Kampf. They are both just books by humans.

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:06 am

Charles Wild wrote:Generally speaking, the word - God - comes from the first sentence of the Old Testament of the Bible so the word - God - was invented by Hebrew/Jewish monks (religious theater actors/religious story tellers/whatever).

"God" is an Old English word and would not have appeared originally in the Bible.
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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby Austin Harper » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:10 pm

Hahaha. This thread is great.

Gord is right, god comes from the identical OE word god which traces back through Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰuto- “invoked [one]”, from PIE *ǵʰewH- “to invoke”, from PIE *ǵʰew- “to pour” or *ǵʰaw- "to call".

Even if you want to use the Hebrew אֵל (el) "god", that still comes from the Proto-Semitic *ʾil- which has tons of derived words in ancient and modern languages.
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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:55 pm

It is really quite simple… Just compare: Did man create ? vs Did man create God?

I am a man and created both of these sentences – so obviously man did create God. The same could be demonstrated verbally. :roll:

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:05 pm

TJrandom wrote:It is really quite simple… Just compare: Did man create ? vs Did man create God?

I am a man and created both of these sentences – so obviously man did create God. The same could be demonstrated verbally. :roll:


Oh {!#%@}! Maybe I am wrong here... What if I am God, and was wrong in thinking that I am a man? Then God would have created God.

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Re: Did Man Create God?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:44 pm

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Hi, Io the lurker.


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