Sleepwalking

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Sleepwalking

Postby Lausten » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:42 pm

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:36 am

Thanks for the link. I listened while multi-tasking. I caught at near 5:30 that he says too many can't even call ISIS "the enemy" (hence the sleepwalking?) ....but I might have that totally wrong. Harris seems to say we need to confront certain tenants of the Muslim Religion, or it may be more broadly of the Religious mindset. Later, I think he notes he is afraid if ISIS type groups ever get the Nuke.

I'm going to have to listen and give it my FULL attention. I like the fact that right now I can't tell if he is saying something more subtle than my current perception, or he's just wrong. Hard to be wrong given my two quotes above?
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Poodle » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:23 am

I waited to listen to that - I waited because I was so angry about stuff happening that I thought I couldn't give it a fair hearing. Well, it's a bit later now. I think he's wrong. Oh - he certainly presents a good case and with a very reasonable-sounding delivery. It's very difficult not to agree with his ever-so-reasonable, ever-so-well-delivered message. But I still think he's wrong.

In the end, all I heard was anti-Islamic propaganda, and I do not believe that he's got his take on Islam right. He's fallen for the very same misinterpretations of Islam that ISIS use, wrongly, on a daily basis. I think - I'm no expert. But hey - all the Muslims I know sort of agree with me. Muslims (in the UK, at least) aren't worried that ISIS' misinterpretations will become common currency - they're worried that non-Muslims will believe that's what's happening. If we fail to understand that, then we, even without the willing help of ISIS, will be creating a phobic situation.

My belief at the moment is that we should get in there and bomb hell out of them - I see no other way around the problem. But then - when all that's done and dusted - we have a big repair job to do. It's not "our" problem, if you're looking at it from a standard 'Christian' good-European point of view. But it's still a whopping great problem - something the podcast DID manage to make clear - and it's ours to deal with together with those who remain Islamic after this mess is cleared up.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:50 am

Poodle wrote:My belief at the moment is that we should get in there and bomb hell out of them
Bombing does nothing. It simply makes people angry. It has to be soldiers on the ground. Bombing only works in economic warfare to write down military & production assets. It's the wrong tool for asymmetrical warfare.

I think, (but don't know), bombing doesn't work because it is brief and over with quickly, whereas soldiers are in your face 24/7. Secondly if you survive a bombing raid, you consider yourself lucky because the bomber won't come back if the asset is destroyed. However soldiers kill humans not assets and if the soldiers are there 24/7 the locals never have time to think themselves lucky.

This isn't the IDF sending soldiers into a Lebanese village under strict rules of combat. This is a "force to baddies to run away" to some pre destined killing zone and kill them there. As ISIS hasn't got the numbers to hold towns in their current area of control, any withdrawal will increase their concentration in other towns. It doesn't take Albert Einstein, to deduce that the Russians are bombing moderate insurgent towns to make it clear they are not going to be future hiding places for ISIS. The Russians are probably forcing a killing zone and magically, when the "outer" ISIS held cities start falling we will find large numbers of Iranian elite troops will appear from nowhere and "do over" the key ISIS towns.

Poodle wrote: we have a big repair job to do. It's not "our" problem, if you're looking at it from a standard 'Christian' good-European point of view.
Agreed but it is for our economic benefit. If these millions of locals, can start owning domestic assets, have property law and plan for the future, we can sell them TV sets, soap powder and package holidays to see the Grand Canyon. The Marshall plan, at the end of the war was a sensible plan.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:59 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Harris seems to say we need to confront certain tenants of the Muslim Religion,
That would be the worst idea ever. The better idea is to remove any comment about religion and concentrate propaganda on their actual crimes of mass murder, sexual slavery and burning people alive. That way we can fight side by side, with like minded Muslims, Christians and atheists.

Our new Prime Minister has has taken advice and is now joining with the Russians and leaving Assad in place.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... l2vm7.html

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Russians do not use half measures.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:18 am

The Russian Air Force took out 500 oil trucks from ISIS revenue streams, in this bombing raid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgYbiCGYy2c

Here the Russian destroy the refinery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3aq7N0NpXU

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:35 am

Yeah Matt: you made an excellent comment recently about not blowing up infrastructure so as to not dispossess the local populous. I thought that was a wise insight....for about 24 hours. Then I thought, as now: WAR is WAR. No half measures so I think the comment you were responding to (by Flash?) was more appropriate.

And then.....it does remind me of a saying: "War is not about right and wrong, its about what is left.".....THAT is what makes it so terrible, and the last resort.

And the big error USA makes over and over re War: Get IN, then get OUT. No rebuilding anything. Decapitate the head. Let the cards shuffle themselves. Common Response: Thats what caused WW2 with Germany having all those hurt feelings. And I say: exactly right. France should have gone IN, then got OUT sometime before the Rhineland.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Gord » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:44 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Harris seems to say we need to confront certain tenants of the Muslim Religion

Did he seem to mean specific tenets, or did he seem to mean specific people occupying land within Muslim territory?
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:34 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yeah Matt: you made an excellent comment recently about not blowing up infrastructure so as to not dispossess the local populous. I thought that was a wise insight....for about 24 hours.
Well....I got that one 100% wrong. :D

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Poodle » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:29 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Poodle wrote:My belief at the moment is that we should get in there and bomb hell out of them
Bombing does nothing. It simply makes people angry. It has to be soldiers on the ground. Bombing only works in economic warfare to write down military & production assets. It's the wrong tool for asymmetrical warfare.

I think, (but don't know), bombing doesn't work because it is brief and over with quickly, whereas soldiers are in your face 24/7. Secondly if you survive a bombing raid, you consider yourself lucky because the bomber won't come back if the asset is destroyed. However soldiers kill humans not assets and if the soldiers are there 24/7 the locals never have time to think themselves lucky.

This isn't the IDF sending soldiers into a Lebanese village under strict rules of combat. This is a "force to baddies to run away" to some pre destined killing zone and kill them there. As ISIS hasn't got the numbers to hold towns in their current area of control, any withdrawal will increase their concentration in other towns. It doesn't take Albert Einstein, to deduce that the Russians are bombing moderate insurgent towns to make it clear they are not going to be future hiding places for ISIS. The Russians are probably forcing a killing zone and magically, when the "outer" ISIS held cities start falling we will find large numbers of Iranian elite troops will appear from nowhere and "do over" the key ISIS towns.

Poodle wrote: we have a big repair job to do. It's not "our" problem, if you're looking at it from a standard 'Christian' good-European point of view.
Agreed but it is for our economic benefit. If these millions of locals, can start owning domestic assets, have property law and plan for the future, we can sell them TV sets, soap powder and package holidays to see the Grand Canyon. The Marshall plan, at the end of the war was a sensible plan.


Yeppers. It was that "belief at the moment" thing which was important. My immediate reaction was straightforward anger and, had the world gone into simplistic reaction mode, I would have been pumping my fist in the air. And, no doubt, now regretting it. It's a hard thing which needs to be looked at impartially. How is it possible to look at at that impartially? I don't know - I'll never know how that's done. But even in the cold light of day, when I accept that my initial reactions were knee-jerk, I'm still left with a feeling that the best possible thing is extermination. It's a feeling that appears to not want to go away. We have a problem - provide the solution. I am fully aware of all the ramifications of everything I'm saying - but the anger remains. I don't know how to deal with it.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Lausten » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:47 pm

Interesting debate here. Personally, I don't think you can eliminate terrorism. As George Carlin once said, what the terrorists are doing is called "trying to win". They don't have large armies, trade routes, infrastructure or technology on their side, so they strap bombs on women and children and go to heavy metal concerts. This is a strategy that has been employed successfully by Native Americans and Palestinians. Not to the same degree, but the same idea, do something that gets the world's attention and you will find allies.

The big difference is, Palestinians and Native Americans actually were repressed and they had an ideology of integration and reconciliation. Not all of them of course, and any war will create bitter enemies who act irrationally, so we have remnants of that, but more importantly we have people working on resolving these multi-generational problems. With ISIS, we will never have that. Their ideology is completely out of step with the modern world. They have to isolate children and indoctrinate them to keep the fight going. They have to prey upon the anger of disaffected youth.

Bombing their villages only fuels that fire. Occupying troops has the advantages mentioned, but that has to be done in conjunction with building infrastructure, teaching them to provide themselves with food and water, and educating them in their own history. That works a lot better if it is their own people doing that.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:16 pm

Lausten wrote:Bombing their villages only fuels that fire. Occupying troops has the advantages mentioned, but that has to be done in conjunction with building infrastructure, teaching them to provide themselves with food and water, and educating them in their own history. That works a lot better if it is their own people doing that.


Dad was a senior officer and psychiatrist in the Australian Airforce. In the late 50's and early 60's Malaya was undergoing a communist insurgency, nick named the "War of the running dogs". It was Britain suffering post war economic hardship, that tried a low cost technique of countering communist Chinese claims through "giving".

The communists would say there were no schools in poor areas. Britain would build schools in poor areas. The communists would say there were no bridges in rural areas. Britain would build bridges in poor areas.

This knocked the wind out of communist propaganda. Sadly the campaign was successful in keeping ethnic Malays away from foreign controlled communism movements, but cultural racial prejudice then kicked in, and the Malays massacred the ethnic Chinese claiming they were all communists anyway.

That's the problem with all these scenarios. They are always so complicated with unique issues.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:45 pm

Lausten:

1. What Native Americans have strapped bombs on themselves?

2. Since when have the Palestinians acted on a policy of integration and reconsiliation....or is this what you call right of return?

3. ISIS ideology is completely out of step...so your issues raised so far in the post are completely irrelevant? Is that right or wrong?

4. "Bombing their villages only fuels that fire." /// What fire? Whose fire????

5. "We have to rebuild their societies...." /// Why is that exactly? Until the late 20th Century, that was not the model.....and certainly NEVER with a people who did not admit they got beat and accepted the "help". ........ and certainly NEVER NEVER---with people still fighting us.

In summary: your analysis and proscriptions are a confused mess.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:57 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Since when have the Palestinians acted on a policy of integration and reconsiliation....or is this what you call right of return?
There are 9.6 million Palestinians in other countries not allowed to return home. Most have integrated quite well in their new found countries. It sort of reminds me of the 1933-1940 Jewish Diaspora from Nazis. These people need their homeland back, just as Israel was given to Jews in 1948. It's that simple.

Lausten wrote:"We have to rebuild their societies...."
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why is that exactly? Until the late 20th Century, that was not the model.
Israel was given to the Jewish people for their society in 1948. The Marshall plan to rebuild European society commenced in 1947.

Argue against rebuilding society and giving a Jewish homeland and a Palestinian homeland, simultaneously, using all your best logic.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Poodle » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:59 pm

I suppose that a lot depends upon viewpoint. Lausten says "Bombing their villages only fuels that fire" which, if I didn't have steam coming out of my ears, I may agree with. Except there's no village. There's no model of civilised life which can be applied in this situation. There's no village because there's no general agreement that a village should be where it appears to be, other than as a target to be used, after bombing, as a propaganda tool. I've calmed down now, I think, a little. But I still feel the same way. It's time to end this.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:11 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Argue against rebuilding society and giving a Jewish homeland and a Palestinian homeland, simultaneously, using all your best logic. [/color] :D


Easy:

1. Israel is an exception.

but I'll give you more: an exception warranted by the crime against the Jews and by the cooperation of the Palestinians with the Germans in WW2.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As to diaspora...are you arguing as well that all displaced people from WW2 have a right to return all across Europe, Russia, China, Africa, East Asia?...ie...reclaim ancestral homes and property and citizenship voting rights????

And as to Palestinian "diaspora" maybe I swallowed hook line and sinker Kirk Douglas yelling at the Palestinians running away to "Come Back." Ha, ha.............Exodus, the movie. Doesn't even matter if its true or not, or moreso: how true or not it is::::: its what happened, and the hand of History having written, moves on.

Every single country on the face of the Earth was taken and is maintained by FORCE OF ARMS by those willing to die one way or the other. Those who don't have the stomach to Fight for their Own Country are called refugees, or cannon fodder.

Hey.....History totally sucks balls, but thems the facts.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:45 am

Poodle wrote:Except there's no village. There's no model of civilised life which can be applied in this situation.

The villiage is the infrastructure that ISIS is using to fund their activities. Bomb the oil trucks, bomb the oil wells, bomb the banks where the money is kept. Bomb the training camps. bomb anyone with a weapon in their hand outside established safe zones.

War!!!!!!!!!!! Its about killing anything that moves.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Poodle » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:52 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Poodle wrote:Except there's no village. There's no model of civilised life which can be applied in this situation.

The villiage is the infrastructure that ISIS is using to fund their activities. Bomb the oil trucks, bomb the oil wells, bomb the banks where the money is kept. Bomb the training camps. bomb anyone with a weapon in their hand outside established safe zones.

War!!!!!!!!!!! Its about killing anything that moves.


Depressingly, that now appears to be the truth. I wish there was some other way to deal with ISIS. I can't see it. Perhaps my attitude has been coloured by recent events. Well, not perhaps.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:15 am

911 wasn't enough?
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:10 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Argue against rebuilding society and giving a Jewish homeland and a Palestinian homeland, simultaneously, using all your best logic. [/color] :D
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Easy: Israel is an exception.
....an exception warranted by the crime against the Jews and by the cooperation of the Palestinians with the Germans in WW2.
You are a bonzo bobbo. The Jewish Stern gangs in Palestine fought the British. The Germans never met the Palestinians and never reached Palestine. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem is an Ottoman Empire appointment, not British. Menachem Begin was a Irgan terrorist who killed British civilians. The Irgan originally wanted the whole of Palestine and Jordan. ISIS wants a religious Caliphate territory. There is no difference.
200px-Pantani.jpg
Jewish Terrorists.jpg



bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:As to diaspora...are you arguing as well that all displaced people from WW2 have a right to return all across Europe, Russia, China, Africa, East Asia?...ie...reclaim ancestral homes and property and citizenship voting rights?
Yes. That's why foreign Czechs. Hungarians and so on are getting back their homes and businesses even today.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Lausten » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:911 wasn't enough?

That's exactly the line Sam Harris used, if you didn't wake up on 9/12/2001 and figure out something is wrong, what will it take? What more do you need to hear from the leaders of these terrorists groups to understand what they are doing? They don't have the means to kill us, so they want us to kill each other. They can't convince people to join them using rational reasons or convincing anyone they have a better way, so they create chaos, knowing that breeds more violence. Let them live and prove that we are weak, or kill them and prove we are evil, that's all the logic they need.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:39 am

Matt: I take as true everything you posted. The Germans never reached Tokyo either. ie: What you post is mostly non-responsive.

As to right of return, the only thing I've seen in the news is people getting their assets returned from Swiss Banks and some art treasures returned? I think its GREAT people dispossessed in some manner by the Germans in WW2 get their property back. Can't be happening "too much" if I haven't heard of it?? And not knowing of it, I don't have the details other than: Its not going to happen regarding Israel. Sovereign States make decisions like that. If the dispossessed people don't like it: they can go to WAR, just like the Israelis did to secure the land in the first instance. Just like the Israelis will lose it if they allow themselves to get outnumbered by the Palestinians. Bad trends all over the place.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:08 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:What you post is mostly non-responsive.
I corrected all your errors. That was my response.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:As to right of return, the only thing I've seen in the news is people getting their assets returned from Swiss Banks and some art treasures returned?
Well then you should read more.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I think its GREAT people dispossessed in some manner by the Germans in WW2 get their property back.
So do the victims. They are not only Jewish.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Can't be happening "too much" if I haven't heard of it?
Perhaps because you are not European and had no property taken from you. You are Jewish American, remember. You don't have a clue about Europe, remember.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist, two months ago. wrote:I also fought for them too in the Yom Kippur war massacre of Palistinians seeking refuge in their land.
In equity law, you need to come to the table with clean hands before calling for judgement on others. :D

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:23 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:What you post is mostly non-responsive.
I corrected all your errors. That was my response. Now, you are only playing with the language given I assume you know the idiomatic meaning of being non-responsive. Better that mind-fart than vacuous manipulation.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:As to right of return, the only thing I've seen in the news is people getting their assets returned from Swiss Banks and some art treasures returned?
Well then you should read more. Well, thats always true.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I think its GREAT people dispossessed in some manner by the Germans in WW2 get their property back.
So do the victims. They are not only Jewish. Thats why I said "people."

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Can't be happening "too much" if I haven't heard of it?
Perhaps because you are not European and had no property taken from you. You are Jewish American, remember. You don't have a clue about Europe, remember. Not true. My lack of info is a marker of how well things are known. Of course, everyone knows what happens to themselves. May not know "why" but they know what.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist, two months ago. wrote:I also fought for them too in the Yom Kippur war massacre of Palistinians seeking refuge in their land.
In equity law, you need to come to the table with clean hands before calling for judgement on others. :D
Nice mish-mash of a misquote. I hope you haven't gotten into that habit pattern with too many people. You can lose credibility doing that. Have beans for lunch did you?
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:27 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Nice mish-mash of a misquote. I hope you haven't gotten into that habit pattern with too many people. You can lose credibility doing that.
Now you sound like Zeuzzz.

It's a skeptic forum. You can't say Israel is the exception and not expect questions.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:39 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Nice mish-mash of a misquote. I hope you haven't gotten into that habit pattern with too many people. You can lose credibility doing that.
Now you sound like Zeuzzz.

It's a skeptic forum. You can't say Israel is the exception and not expect questions.

So============YOU ADMIT you are becoming habituated to the lazy slur??? //// Thats why I warn you against it.

Prove me wrong: pull up my exact quote. Your mish-mash is just that. And since you made it up....what am I to think?

Of course I can say Israel is an exception and point out gross manipulations presented as quotes. In your defense: at least you didn't use quotation marks. You are hanging by you fingernails.

And btw: an accusation based on made up misquotes: is not a question.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Lausten » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:55 pm

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Martin Brock » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:38 am

Harris' all too predictable story is depressing because it means we're repeating the same mistakes? Right. So what's the mistake? Tolerating religious extremists? If that's your conclusion, you aren't paying attention.

http://levantreport.com/2015/08/06/form ... 2012-memo/

That's an interview with General Micheal Flynn, former chief of the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, discussing (around minute 9) a classified, DIA report issued in 2012, before the declaration of the Islamic State. According to this report, "There is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist Principality in Eastern Syria (Hasaka and Der Zor), and this is exactly what the supporting powers to the opposition want, in order to isolate the Syrian regime."

In context, “supporting powers” refers to “the West, Gulf countries and Turkey”. “The West” refers principally to the United States. “Gulf countries” refers principally to Saudi Arabia and Qatar, allies of the U.S. and direct contributors to forces seeking to constitute a "Salafist Principality in Eastern Syria" (the Islamic State), not a secular, liberal democracy or even a secular but authoritarian state. A secular, authoritarian state is precisely what the powers supporting the Syrian opposition wanted to isolate, by establishing an Islamic State, and Syrian refugees now flee this war to isolate the regime, not the regime itself.

This "Salafist Principality" being "exactly what" the West, Gulf countries and Turkey wanted is not some conspiracy theory of naive leftists oblivious to the looming threat of Muslim extremists. It's the explicit opinion of a classified report of the United States Defense Intelligence Agency since declassified through a Freedom of Information Act request.

Yes. Religious fanatics will always be with us. No, they won't always be financed and heavily armed by the United States in endless wars naively supported by Sam Harris and other anti-religious fanatics who actually believe that fairy tales, including the fairy tales of Islamist fanatics, make the world go 'round.

No. It's not the fairy tales. It's the financing and arming of militias in endless, Machiavellian, global "chess games" imagined by ivory tower intellectuals supplying the military-industrial complex with endless arguments for their next weapons sale. The world is full of fairy tales and their believers. Only a tiny proportion of the believers are involved in the Machiavellian games, and they're the ones bombing soccer games in Paris and Russian airliners over the Sinai, responding directly to French and Russian bombings of their comrades.

Religious extremism really is all around you all the time. You can see it on TV every Sunday morning. Talk to enough of your neighbors, and you'll find it a stone's throw away. You might even find a Salafist, but he's extremely unlikely to harm you. You have as much to fear from a Marxist.

These bombings aren't religious extremism. They're asymmetric warfare, which is far more isolated and threatens you largely because your own government continually wages war, even arming "enemies" in order to wage war on them. Hageeites in Texas are every bit as extreme in their thinking. If states were bombing them, they'd be bombing other stuff too, and if their ideology was more secular, they'd still be bombing stuff. History is full of examples. Religion is incidental.

Harris is a useful idiot.
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More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Lausten » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:50 pm

The possibility of the establishment of such a state was no secret. I don't know what special information you think you have. Islamic extremists have been saying this for a long time. It's also no secret that some American political leaders understand this and see it as a chance to make money either selling arms or being the ones who come in and clean up afterwards. Why you think Harris doesn't know this is the only mystery here.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Martin Brock » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:18 pm

Lausten wrote:Why you think Harris doesn't know this is the only mystery here.

Because I listened to the podcast linked in the opening post. He says the problem is Islam. He says that we must wage a war on Islam or an extreme Islamism bound and determined to impose medieval standards on the world and willing to kill freedom loving people everywhere to do it. He says that we're figting this war for our children and must fight it for generations and cannot escape it.

He simply ignores the fact that we weren't fighting this war two, three and four decades ago, despite the fact that Salafism has been around for more than a thousand years. He simply ignores the fact that the Paris bombers and Russian airline bombers are responding directly to specific, recent miltary actions by the French and Russian governments by their own account. His "explanation" of the violence never mentions the fact that the United States Defense Intelligence Agency explicitly reported, before the fact, that a Salafist Principality was a deliberate goal of the foreign policy of the U.S. and aillied forces in their effort to topple a government that, for all of its faults, is decidedly not a Salafist Principality or Islamist or medieval, quite the contrary. I don't need to defend fascism and socialism (the ideologies behind Assad's Baath Socialist Party) to realize that both ideologies are thoroughly secular and modern and neither is inspired by medieval Islam.

Why you think that Harris does know this, or that he accounts for it when formulating his theory of the violence, is the mystery here. You posted the podcast. Tell us where he indicates this knowledge. Give me the minute in the podcast, so I can find it. "Sleepwalking toward Armageddon" he says. Who is supposed to be sleepwalking through what? I'm not oblivious to medieval religious fanatism. I'll talk to you about it all day. Harris himself is an integral part of the perpetuating the violence, and despite his own naive self-congratulation, he does not perpetuate it by calling the Salafists names like "barbarian". Who cares what names he calls them? Not the Salafists themselves. They're happy for him to stoke the flames. Why does he think they use terrorism as a tactic in the first place?

Harris perpetuates the violence by defending it himself, by imagining himself on the side of the angels in the war, by imagining that the bombers he defends differ fundamentally from the bombers he labels "barbarian", when they're often on the same side by their own account!. If anyone is leading us to Armageddon, marching side-by-side with the Salafists, Sam Harris is, as Hitchens marched before him. He's marching beside these people too.
Last edited by Martin Brock on Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Lausten » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:50 pm

What do you mean we weren't fighting this war decades ago? Decades ago we were carving up the Middle East and dividing the remnants of their empires that existed for centuries and making sure the governments that replaced them allowed us to come in and drill their oil. Before that, we had simply won all the earlier wars and had no interest in a backwards people in the desert. They were once a center of learning and progress, but between the Mongol invasion and the Crusades, we took care of that. Of course they are claiming to respond to recent military events, but all current armies justify their actions as a defense against the latest attack, and those attackers say they are acting in defense of an earlier attack. It's short sighted to listen to that rhetoric. Your quote mining of a former agent is just more of the same.

The difference today is we don't act like we are the owners of the world and can do whatever we want. Today, we are trying to act more like a pluralistic society, but we haven't figured out how to do that and we haven't dealt with the atrocities we committed in the past. What you are asking for is not given in detail in this podcast, but is mentioned.

At minute 13 he introduces what he considers the actual motivations of Muslims and says reforming the Muslim world is very important, he notes that “jihad is not controversial within the Muslim world”, it is as normal as saying Jesus died for you on the cross. But you heard that part.

Skip to minute 17 where he mocks the liberal explanations of Muslim behavior, what intellectuals say are “their real motivations”, “they want what everyone wants”. Sam's response is “one must continually employ a firewall of caveats and concessions to irrelevancy” He rattles off short phrases that address everything you are saying and that he has written and spoke of at length elsewhere. You can easily find these. Then after minute 18 he says, “now can we honestly talk about the link between belief and behavior” The next 3 or 4 minutes are the heart of the podcast.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby nmblum88 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:12 pm

It is a monument to how far the Forum as travelled when Martin Brock turns out to be the voice of educated reason…. thoughtful and well said…
Thanks to Martin.
Anyone who thinks that the religious component , the importunings to Allah, represent the heart of the matter has been listening to the local news too long, and with useless result.
The bombs , guns, bullets are delivered by haves who have never, would never, will never throw bombs or use guns themselves.
And they are thrown and fired by the most dangerous humans in the world: those who feel, and have felt for generations that they have nothing to lose.
They are young, and they are many.
The religious implications are repellent but they are no more indicative of the real (and terrifying for Western comfort) problem than are the Western (American) breast beatings on behalf of moral exceptionalism and the preposterous notion that our militarizing is less horrifying, more expressive of reasonable response, than their grenade tossing.

NMB
P.S. Aside to Lausten: it is the uncritical hero worship of Harris that is ONE of the great mysteries …. especially as it is encouraged in a so-called SKEPTICAL environment…

A fellow hero in the pantheon of skeptical gods once suggested that maybe its because his books are mercifully short.
I don't know…
What I do know is that idolizing is inimical to skepticism.
There is no substitute for responding to anything that sounds as if it comes from a recruitment banner with the suspicion that it deserves.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Martin Brock » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:16 pm

Lausten wrote:What do you mean we weren't fighting this war decades ago?

Your history of the region is incredibly naive. When "we" carved up the Middle East, we favored Salafists, like the Wahhabists in Saudi Arabia, when they served our purposes just as we do now. The rising tide of resistance to Western imperialism, as well as the tyranny of the Ottoman empire, was pan-Arab nationalism, like Nassar in Egypt and the Baathists in Iraq and Syria, but "we" supported these movements only when convenient, not to wage some war against medieval Islam on the side of the angels of liberal democracy.

"We" were never owners of the world.

Before he says, "jihad is not controversial within the Muslim world", Harris says he's not accusing most Muslims of complicity in Islamist violence, and after he says it, he says that many Muslims don't take their religion very seriously.

Again, I can link any number of religious extremists in the U.S., literally preaching Armageddon in your lifetime, right now. The biggest difference between these extremists and the mad bombers in Paris is not the words they read and write. The biggest difference is the number of bombs falling in their neighborhoods dropped by imperial crusaders.

Harris' silly straw men are no more relevant than others. I never say anything about anyone wanting what everyone wants. No one wants what everyone wants, because people want a dizzying variety of things.

Minute 17 doesn't repeat a single point I've asserted here. I never say anything about anyone wanting security, education or other Maslowian needs satisfied. I say that people waging war on each other commit these acts of violence, that terrorism is asymmetric warfare, that as Robert Pape has effectively illustrated, suicide terrorism is practically always a reaction to territorial contests, regardless of the ideology of the terrorists, and that many suicide terrorists are not Islamists or even conventionally religious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win

Harris hardly refers to these facts at all, and he refers to them only to dismiss them in favor of his own unsubstantiated theory justifying the counter-bombing that can only provoke further retaliation. He only conjures up silly "liberal" straw men telling us not to hurt the terrorists' feelings. Sure, that's an easy argument to win, because he stands it up solely to knock it down again.

Hitler channeled Moses. Mohammed can kiss my ass. See? I can pretend to be a valiant opponent of religious superstition too. So what? No one's bombing me over it, and I don't stop any bombing this way.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Lausten » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:25 pm

Martin Brock wrote:Before he says, "jihad is not controversial within the Muslim world", Harris says he's not accusing most Muslims of complicity in Islamist violence, and after he says it, he says that many Muslims don't take their religion very seriously.

Again, I can link any number of religious extremists in the U.S., literally preaching Armageddon in your lifetime, right now. The biggest difference between these extremists and the mad bombers in Paris is not the words they read and write. The biggest difference is the number of bombs falling in their neighborhoods dropped by imperial crusaders.

I don't see what your problem with the first paragraph quoted here is and the problem with religious extremism doesn't change when you change the religion, the country or who has the bombs. The world is holding together for the moment because the slightly better religious extremists, the ones who are slightly more reformed, currently have control of most of the military in the world. Sam Harris speaks to those forces just as vehemently at other times as he does the Muslims here. This is a podcast addressing specific actions taken by specific people in a specific place and addresses them specifically.

If you asked Harris to address US military actions and rhetoric from those leaders and their motivations, I'm sure he would agree with many of your points, and then he would relate them back to forces of history that are the same root cause. The root causes that you seem to think somehow disappeared sometime in the 19th century, because you are only referring to acts of war that are related to recent territories and boundaries.

BTW, I didn't say we "were" the owners of the world, I said we acted like it.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby nmblum88 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:42 pm

Just curious, Lausten, and in now way intended to deter you from your faith in Sam Harris.
But WHAT, exactly have you found in any public expression or published work of Harris that corroborates your assumption of what what Harris would answer to questions as you suggest he would?
"IF you asked Harris….. I'M SURE he would …" is shaky conjecture…
I try to keep up with Harris (for the sake of old , pre American invasion of Iraq days) listen to what he says, read what he writes, but unlike you I would be very careful before making any prediction for what his actual positions are on anything other than that we are at war with Islamic sins versus Western CHRISTIAN virtues and being on the side of the Christians angels is the only suitable place to be.
Have I missed something?



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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:07 am

Its never "either-or" but always a mix of things. Many many interactive issues reinforcing and conflicting with one another. Not One thing, not one ideology at play, but many many people all with those interactive reinforcing and conflicting views and values.

Ha, ha.... even when the Libs, Dems, and Obama say "Its lack of Jobs" which the ghetto in Molenbeck is strong evidence for as well as throughout the Middle East.....hes not all wrong.

Its always a mix of things: people being people.

Yea, verily!
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Lausten » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:02 am

nmblum wrote: his actual positions are on anything other than that we are at war with Islamic sins versus Western CHRISTIAN virtues and being on the side of the Christians angels is the only suitable place to be.
Have I missed something?

Apparently. You have missed the distinction between Western values and Christian values. Even still calling them "Western" is dubious. They have roots in Socrates and flourished during the Enlightenment era in Western Europe, but they were there in China and India and the pre-Colombian Americas. Everyone everywhere is realizing that educating women is good for all, that universal health care is just the modern expression of caring for your tribe as well as other basic rights and dignities. Harris talks about this almost every time he talks on anything.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:59 am

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... OTAwNDgxS0

Short cartoon essay setting forth basic facts that both sides tend to ignore. A good test for every reader as whatever side you identify with, or deny, the important question about what to do is completely left open.
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby Lausten » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:20 am

What to do? Build infrastructure, roads, bridges, irrigation, commerce, health care. This also means helping the less fortunate, disenfranchised and marginalized and keeping power in check. Provide education that it is ideology neutral and open to all. Fund pure research. Have some fun while you're at it. And oh, think of the children, who will think of the children!!
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Re: Sleepwalking

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:36 am

Lausten wrote:What to do? Build infrastructure, roads, bridges, irrigation, commerce, health care. This also means helping the less fortunate, disenfranchised and marginalized and keeping power in check. Provide education that it is ideology neutral and open to all. Fund pure research. Have some fun while you're at it. And oh, think of the children, who will think of the children!!

Thats a large rubber stamp.
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