The Pongidae ......

General discussion on the subject of religion, losing religion, and having no religion to lose...

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gorgeous
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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby gorgeous » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:25 pm

humans are not apes...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby nmblum88 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:39 pm

gorgeous wrote:humans are not apes...


No, humans are not apes.
And apes are not humans.
Just related in significant ways.
So while there is nothing you can do about it ( as the saying goes..."you can choose your friends, but you can't choose your relatives.",) the best thing to do is to relax and enjoy the connection.

NMB
P.S. There is a terrific story about the relationship: "Origin of Species."
A real page turner: you won't be able to put it down once you start reading.....(and warning!! You may need a whole box of tissues!).
Look for it at your local library,
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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby gorgeous » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:53 pm

no relation...humans were specially designed..
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby nmblum88 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:31 pm

gorgeous wrote:no relation...humans were specially designed..


When something is noted as having been "designed" it could be one one of many things.
"Human" is not among them.


Unless of course, you have "human" confused with "chair,"


NMB

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby Poodle » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:37 pm

Humans are hominoids. The family of hominoids includes all of those animals colloquially called 'apes'. Ergo, humans are apes. Stop being such a complete plonker, gorgeous.

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby gorgeous » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:57 pm

you may be an ape, but I'm not... yes, scientists believe we are designed, too... ----“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”
― Isaac Newton, The Principia: Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy ------“DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”
― Bill Gates, The Road Ahead ----------------------“Scientists are slowly waking up to an inconvenient truth - the universe looks suspiciously like a fix. The issue concerns the very laws of nature themselves. For 40 years, physicists and cosmologists have been quietly collecting examples of all too convenient "coincidences" and special features in the underlying laws of the universe that seem to be necessary in order for life, and hence conscious beings, to exist. Change any one of them and the consequences would be lethal. Fred Hoyle, the distinguished cosmologist, once said it was as if "a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics".

To see the problem, imagine playing God with the cosmos. Before you is a designer machine that lets you tinker with the basics of physics. Twiddle this knob and you make all electrons a bit lighter, twiddle that one and you make gravity a bit stronger, and so on. It happens that you need to set thirtysomething knobs to fully describe the world about us. The crucial point is that some of those metaphorical knobs must be tuned very precisely, or the universe would be sterile.

Example: neutrons are just a tad heavier than protons. If it were the other way around, atoms couldn't exist, because all the protons in the universe would have decayed into neutrons shortly after the big bang. No protons, then no atomic nucleuses and no atoms. No atoms, no chemistry, no life. Like Baby Bear's porridge in the story of Goldilocks, the universe seems to be just right for life.”
― Paul Davies ---------------“We are intelligent beings: intelligent beings cannot have been formed by a crude, blind, insensible being: there is certainly some difference between the ideas of Newton and the dung of a mule. Newton's intelligence, therefore, came from another intelligence”
― Voltaire ----------------“The conclusion of intelligent design flows naturally from the data itself—not from sacred books or sectarian beliefs. Inferring that biochemical systems were designed by an intelligent agent is a humdrum process that requires no new principles of logic or science. It comes simply from the hard work that biochemistry has done over the past forty years, combined with consideration of the way in which we reach conclusions of design every day.”
― Michael J. Behe, Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution --------------“The fundamental claim of intelligent design is straightforward and easily intelligible: namely, there are natural systems that cannot be adequately explained in terms of undirected natural forces and that exhibit features which in any other circumstance we would attribute to intelligence.”
― William A. Dembski, The Design Revolution: Answering the Toughest Questions about Intelligent Design --------------------“The most essential prediction of Darwinism is that, given an astronomical number of chances, unintelligent processes can make seemingly-designed systems, ones of the complexity of those found in the cell. ID specifically denies this, predicting that in the absence of intelligent input no such systems would develop. So Darwinism and ID make clear, opposite predictions of what we should find when we examine genetic results from a stupendous number of organisms that are under relentless pressure from natural selection. The recent genetic results are a stringent test. The results: 1) Darwinism’s prediction is falsified; 2) Design’s prediction is confirmed.”
― Michael J. Behe
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby gorgeous » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:07 pm

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in." ------Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."------Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby Poodle » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:13 pm

All irrelevant. You're an ape.

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby TJrandom » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:59 pm

Poodle wrote:All irrelevant. You're an ape.


An ape that doesn`t know her place... how sad. But maybe just evidence that not all apes have evolved enough to have meaningful intelligence.

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:23 am

gorgeous wrote:no relation...humans were specially designed..
No, as only a total ignoramus would claim that.

Firstly, why would aliens design humans with 90% of their DNA being redundant and performing no function?

Secondly why does this same DNA shared with other apes?

Thirdly, can you provide one iota of evidence for your claim? Of course not, you are simply lying.

gorgeous wrote:you may be an ape, but I'm not...
Why do you carry all that redundant ape DNA then Gorgeous? Are you claiming to a bloke with "special" non ape DNA? Who told you this? A fairy from the "Gorgeous Drag Show"
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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby TJrandom » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:23 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby Gord » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:35 am

Poodle wrote:Humans are hominoids. The family of hominoids includes all of those animals colloquially called 'apes'. Ergo, humans are apes. Stop being such a complete plonker, gorgeous.

Wikipedia suggests scientists can't agree whether to call us apes or not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

Thus, there are at least three common, or traditional, uses of the term "ape": non-specialists may not distinguish between "monkeys" and "apes", that is, they may use the two terms interchangeably; or they may use "ape" for any tailless monkey or non-human hominoid; or they may use the term "ape" to just mean the non-human hominoids....

...Some scientists now use the term "ape" to mean all members of the superfamily Hominoidea, including humans....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape#Histo ... d_taxonomy

The history of hominoid taxonomy is complex and somewhat confusing....

...Linnaeus's inclusion of humans in the primates with monkeys and apes was troubling for people who denied a close relationship between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom. Linnaeus's Lutheran archbishop had accused him of "impiety"....

...However, the many affinities between humans and other primates — and especially the "great apes" — made it clear that the distinction made no scientific sense....

...Humans the non-apes: Until about 1960, taxonomists typically divided the superfamily Hominoidea into two families. The science community treated humans and their extinct relatives as the outgroup within the superfamily; that is, humans were considered as quite distant from kinship with the "apes". Humans were classified as the family Hominidae and were known as the "hominids". All other hominoids were known as "apes" and were referred to the family Pongidae.

The "great apes" in Pongidae: The 1960s saw the methodologies of molecular biology applied to primate taxonomy. Goodman's 1964 immunological study of serum proteins led to re-classifying the hominoids into three families: the humans in Hominidae; the great apes in Pongidae; and the "lesser apes" (gibbons) in Hylobatidae....

...Gibbons the outgroup: New studies indicated that gibbons, not humans, are the outgroup within the superfamily Hominoidea, meaning: the rest of the hominoids are more closely related to each other than (any of them) are to the gibbons. With this splitting, the gibbons (Hylobates, et al.) were isolated after moving the great apes into the same family as humans. Now the term "hominid" encompassed a larger collective taxa within the family Hominidae....

...Orangutans the outgroup: Investigations comparing humans and the three other hominid genera disclosed that the African apes (chimpanzees and gorillas) and humans are more closely related to each other than any of them are to the Asian orangutans (Pongo); that is, the orangutans, not humans, are the outgroup within the family Hominidae. This led to reassigning the African apes to the subfamily Homininae with humans....

...Hominins: ...the subfamily Homininae was divided into two tribes: Gorillini, comprising genus Pan and genus Gorilla; and Hominini, comprising genus Homo (the humans). Humans and close relatives now began to be known as "hominins", that is, of tribe Hominini. Thus, the term "hominin" succeeded to the previous use of "hominid", which meaning had changed with changes in Hominidae....

...Gorillas the outgroup: New DNA comparisons now provided evidence that gorillas, not humans, are the outgroup in the subfamily Homininae; this suggested that chimpanzees should be grouped with humans in the tribe Hominini, but in separate subtribes.[5] Now the name "hominin" delineated Homo plus those earliest Homo relatives and ancestors that arose after the divergence from the chimpanzees. (Humans are no longer an outgroup, but are a branch, deep in the tree of the pre-1960s ape group.)

It's easiest to just say that humans are apes. The only thing that seems to be holding us back from doing so is hurt feelings.
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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:47 am

We should continue this important line of research:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee

I assume we have plenty of volunteers here.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby Flash » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:01 am

That's all interesting but the real question is can one make a good pate out of them, a kind of delicious bonobo foie gras?
And when are those fabulous panda steaks coming on the menu?
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby TJrandom » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:03 am

ElectricMonk wrote:We should continue this important line of research:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee

I assume we have plenty of volunteers here.


I`m confused... no mention of Texas.

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby nmblum88 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:34 pm

Flash wrote:That's all interesting but the real question is can one make a good pate out of them, a kind of delicious bonobo foie gras?
And when are those fabulous panda steaks coming on the menu?


Hah!!
Subtle is as subtle does.
But a Missionary Position Paper. nonetheless.



NMB

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Re: The Pongidae ......

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:39 pm

Flash wrote:That's all interesting but the real question is can one make a good pate out of them, a kind of delicious bonobo foie gras?
And when are those fabulous panda steaks coming on the menu?


https://youtu.be/vNZ63iwnn5M
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams


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