Saying it all….. and saying it better:

General discussion on the subject of religion, losing religion, and having no religion to lose...
nmblum88
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Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby nmblum88 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:05 pm


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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:11 pm

From the Link: The great physicist Edwin Hubble, speaking at Caltech’s commencement in 1938, said a scientist has “a healthy skepticism, suspended judgement, and disciplined imagination”—not only about other people’s ideas but also about his or her own. The scientist has an experimental mind, not a litigious one.

"but also about his or her own." /// A key too many self proclaimed skeptics, and scientists, and wannabes---simply ignore.

.............Its something about the ego.
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:15 pm

any society that develops experts is also distrustful of them, the more so the more successful they appear. Given the gap between average education and cutting-edge science, most of what people in lab coats do is, for most people, indistinguishable from magic.
So if you were a wizard/shaman, knowing that only those like you can understand what you do, why would you not exploit that?
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby Poodle » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:17 pm

"A key too many self proclaimed skeptics, and scientists, and wannabes---simply ignore."

You tell 'em, bobbo. I presume you have evidence for that claim? :)

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:22 pm

Poodle wrote:"A key too many self proclaimed skeptics, and scientists, and wannabes---simply ignore."

You tell 'em, bobbo. I presume you have evidence for that claim? :)

You mean like several of your own posts Poodle? :D

Only a few degrees removed....I'm surfing usb hubs to run my external hard drives and I want a 3 foot or more cable hard wired to the hub. Hard to find...the cords are all short or detachable. Because I'm an american....I googled 300mm to inches (aka 12 inches)...and because I'm stupid...about 5 minutes later I googled 30 cn to inches....the same 12 inches.....I even briefly thought my computer was stuck.......then, I laughed at myself. HEY!---another example of ego at work.....country style.

EDIT: Before anyone is anything else: they are hooman. Hoomans all start with and have egos.....to be put in proper perspective as one challenges the ego against the intellect. The challenge is CONSTANT. Not a one time learning event. To think you have made the leap......is half the issue.
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby nmblum88 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:From the Link: The great physicist Edwin Hubble, speaking at Caltech’s commencement in 1938, said a scientist has “a healthy skepticism, suspended judgement, and disciplined imagination”—not only about other people’s ideas but also about his or her own. The scientist has an experimental mind, not a litigious one.

"but also about his or her own." /// A key too many self proclaimed skeptics, and scientists, and wannabes---simply ignore.

.............Its something about the ego.


I'm the first to admit that I have not the slightest idea of what anyone here is driving at.
Although there does seem to be, of late, a general suggestion that actually KNOWING anything is no competition for wishful thinking.

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:43 pm

nmblum88 wrote:I'm the first to admit that I have not the slightest idea of what anyone here is driving at.
Although there does seem to be, of late, a general suggestion that actually KNOWING anything is no competition for wishful thinking.
NMB

Hmmmm....all the evidence so far is that KNOWING anything (sic whatever that means as the subject is the scientific mindset) is the superior position. You evidence your own wishful thinking after linked to an article that urges just the opposite. Could you....... maybe ......... say it better?
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby nmblum88 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
nmblum88 wrote:I'm the first to admit that I have not the slightest idea of what anyone here is driving at.
Although there does seem to be, of late, a general suggestion that actually KNOWING anything is no competition for wishful thinking.
NMB

Hmmmm....all the evidence so far is that KNOWING anything (sic whatever that means as the subject is the scientific mindset) is the superior position. You evidence your own wishful thinking after linked to an article that urges just the opposite. Could you....... maybe ......... say it better?


No.
If I thought I could say it better, I would have given it a shot.
I didn't and I don't.
That's why I offered an article, actually a fully quoted commencement speech, one man's take on the nature of science and the always critical thinking that science depends upon.
That's about it.

NMB

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:57 pm

Of course...you can say it better.

The Scientific Method: keep trying until it works.
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby nmblum88 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Of course...you can say it better.

The Scientific Method: keep trying until it works.



Whatever.

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:24 pm

No......Science speaks against "whatever."

Why did you post that link?

I see you posted again re apotheosis. Ha, ha.........the last 3 uses of that word that I have seen elsewhere used it incorrectly.

Dare I hope you understand apotheosis any better than you do the scientific mindset?

Relax.............
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby Gord » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:45 pm


Science’s defenders have identified five hallmark moves of pseudoscientists. They argue that the scientific consensus emerges from a conspiracy to suppress dissenting views. They produce fake experts, who have views contrary to established knowledge but do not actually have a credible scientific track record. They cherry-pick the data and papers that challenge the dominant view as a means of discrediting an entire field. They deploy false analogies and other logical fallacies. And they set impossible expectations of research: when scientists produce one level of certainty, the pseudoscientists insist they achieve another.

It’s not that some of these approaches never provide valid arguments. Sometimes an analogy is useful, or higher levels of certainty are required. But when you see several or all of these tactics deployed, you know that you’re not dealing with a scientific claim anymore. Pseudoscience is the form of science without the substance.

Hmm. Sounds useful, but I'd like to see the data behind it. I'm not sure you can say you know you're not dealing with a scientific claim anymore, but I do accept these five tactics as hallmarks of pseudoscience.
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:03 am

However, most of the people engaged in such matters say that this attitude is based on three things: ignorance, stupidity, and nothing else.

Douglas Adams
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby Lausten » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:38 pm

I'm reading Greta Christina's latest, "The Way of the Heathen". A brilliant work. This morning she spoke to the mistrust of medicine and pointing out how in practice, we, the patients, are experimented on. Sure, there are trials and tests and clinical studies, but at some point, things have to be "tried" on us. We are told by experts that there are dangers to what they are going to do us and sometimes, they aren't even sure what disease we actually have. It's no wonder we are suspicious. That's the dark side. The light side is, we do know way more than our parents did about how to cure horrible things. Being on the cutting edge of our own health and well being has a price. We want science to figure it out and make it all safe and certain. But if they do that, it will slow down the learning process. People don't like to deal with that.
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby fromthehills » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:19 pm

"The scientist has an experimental mind, not a litigious one."

Can someone shed some light on this phrase. Perhaps I'm missing something. It's driving me batty. Litigious people aren't experimental? Scientists don't involve themselves in lawsuits?wtf

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:35 pm

Ah - those would be the BS (British Standard) or equivalent scientists and litigious people. Such creatures always, without fail, do what people who are neither scientific nor litigious say they do.

It's like Rock Stars, Sportspersons and Politicians.

Douglas Adams, as always, was right.

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:37 pm

Lausten: yep, Pros and Cons to all we do. BUT I would say "experimental" medicine is SOUGHT OUT by people without any other option/hopes. Its really "standard" medicine that is being misapplied by charlatans to bilk money that are dispised...or...really the bureaucratic delays and repetitions imposed by insurance companies........ha,.... depending on "exactly" what she is talking about.

Hills: Yeah, I read that with minor discomfort myself. Rather than say litigious, I would think a better word/concept would have been "argumentative." Rather than argue with someone else, or even themselves, about what the truth is/might be....they experiment to find out.
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:53 pm

Here's a good one ... Women of a certain age like to make their own jam.

Well-known fact.

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:58 pm

I ate my own jam this morning for breakfast: on my own made bread. Not actually jam.....more a chutney but the process is exactly the same. jam is too cheap to make your own cost effective. But chutney: you can save a lot of money making your own.

Dead simple too. Mine was mango, guava, citrus, and cranberry. Delicious on a base of cream cheese made from yogurt made from milk.
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:01 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I ate my own jam this morning for breakfast: on my own made bread. Not actually jam.....more a chutney but the process is exactly the same. jam is too cheap to make your own cost effective. But chutney: you can save a lot of money making your own.

Dead simple too. Mine was mango, guava, citrus, and cranberry. Delicious on a base of cream cheese made from yogurt made from milk.



... thus proving that you are a woman of a certain age.

Easy, this generalisation thing.

(Does sound nice, though. Can you give us the recipe?).

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby nmblum88 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:21 pm

fromthehills wrote:"The scientist has an experimental mind, not a litigious one."

Can someone shed some light on this phrase. Perhaps I'm missing something. It's driving me batty. Litigious people aren't experimental? Scientists don't involve themselves in lawsuits?wtf




It means "ideally."
Or at least in the most ideal scenario.

As in "man is a noble animal," (or at least capable of nobility.).
Or, if you like, " guns don't kill, people do."

It means that in the best scenario we do what the highest calling of our nature (and our vocations) demand of us.

It's a commencement speech, for Christ's sake!!
It's directed at young scholars (hopefully idealists at a pivotal time in their lives) who are going off into the world to improve it by living up to their best selves, their highest hopes, their most inspirational dreams.

As to the litigious component of the experimental?
Perhaps.
But that's another conversation altogether….
That's the conversation that involves how to keep the ideal as the goal even in a society increasingly awash in corruption.
And believe it or not, there are people, including those of us who haven't managed to live up to our earlier conceptions of what makes for "the good life, well lived," who DO have those conversations.
(Perhaps to excess.)

Norma Manna Blum

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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:32 pm

Poodle.........you are calling for a hen fest?

Ummmmm........I "never" follow a recipe. Maybe a 50/50 shot I am close on the first try. I don't know what that is about me. So...I start with one of the first presented google recipes like http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/ ... ney-230708
((I like epicurious as I posted there for years until their forum was done away with, then simple recipes/alton brown/and Martha Steward give me the outline of what to do.

With the given link, I was still using what I had on hand...so substitute the apples with guava as both guava and mangoes had been secured on sale from the grocery store....then I added half a cup of finely chopped dehydrated cranberries as I have several pints of those I'm trying to put into everything until they are used up...before they overly dessicate. Using them up mostly right now in my own peanut butter...instant sandwich spread. Also...use half the sugar that any recipe calls for....makes me feel virtuous.

I take about a cup of product and puree it to make a thicker chutney.

I also threw in half a cup of orange fruit and zest because I always confuse chutney with marmalade. Throw it all together and bring it up to temp in my pressure cooker...then pour into sanitized ball jars and process for 3 minutes...just enough time to develop the vacuum in the jars. "I believe" its all sterile and acidic enough not to require a long cook time.

I've started making marmalade 4-5 times but wound up making something else....never enough oranges.

I call all this FITK or Fun in the Kitchen. I'm still alive to talk about it.

I just ordered from Amazon some ascorbic acid and some cold setting gelatin. Going to be all kinds of FITK.
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Re: Saying it all….. and saying it better:

Postby Gord » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:10 pm

Poodle wrote:Easy, this generalisation thing.

Peculiar, this Yoda speech is.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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