Écrasez l’infâme

General discussion on the subject of religion, losing religion, and having no religion to lose...
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Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:19 pm

Time to bring back Voltaire: Crush the loathsome thing.

Just when I thought the church was about to get serious about priestly abuse, I discover that the man at the very top is right down there in the swamp along with all the others. I liked a lot of what Pope Francis stood for, and still do. But I kept wondering why he continues to shield Cardinal Law from the consequences of his crimes, allowing him to hide in the Vatican.

Now I've just seen a 2017 documentary by a French team of investigative reporters, entitled "The Catholic Church: Code of Silence" (50 minutes long). These people are really good at what they do. They always give the accused priests and bishops a chance to respond to the charges, but they also always have with them formidable evidence supporting the accusations. And time after time, priests and bishops alike simply go dumb and refuse to talk. The Bishop of Cameroon, when confronted with a note he himself wrote, telling how he avoided a scandal by shipping four priests out of the country, simply sneered and said he wasn't going to discuss it, and anyway they had no right to possess that letter. It was a private communication that belonged to him. (Does he sound like a certain denizen of the White House? The issue isn't what is revealed; it's the fact that somebody knows it who shouldn't know about it.)

The head of the Brothers of Saint John was asked for an interview, and finally sent an e-mail saying that "after much thought, he had decided not to grant the interview." They tracked him down as he was getting off an airplane and asked him why he wouldn't. He stonewalled saying, he had already told them why he refused. Again, that was a lie. He had told them THAT he refused, but not WHY. (But we can guess why.)

About the Pope, the lying hound now has a very long record of prevarication. Before he ever became Pope, Bergoglio wrote in a published book that there had never been a case of abuse in his diocese. The reporters had no difficulty rounding up half a dozen people who swore they had complained to the diocese about being abused and had been totally ignored, not even getting a reply. So the sonofabitch lied. But the worst thing he did involved the case of Fr. Grassi, who was convicted of abuse and sentenced to 15 years in prison. A group of cardinals commissioned an "inquiry" slanted by lawyers owned by the Church, demonizing the accusers in Grassi's trial; this "inquiry" was sent to the judges hearing Grassi's appeal, in an attempt to manipulate the legal process. (Fortunately, the conviction was upheld.) And the inside front cover lists the commission that ordered the "inquiry." It was headed by Cardinal Bergoglio. The team requested interviews with the Pope for eight months, and was refused. Finally, they got one of the reporters to the front line, who handed one of the bodyguards a letter for the Pope explaining what they wanted to ask him. Then, when the Pope came by, the reporter shouted her question about the Grassi case. Once more, this incredibly slimy sonofabitch DENIED having commissioned the "inquiry" THAT HAD HIS NAME ON IT. Needless to say, they never did get any response to their letter.

It gets worse. There is now a blue-ribbon Vatican commission charged with investigating the problem of priestly abuse, consisting of about a dozen clerics. The reporter pointed out to the official Vatican spokesman that four of the commissioners were cardinals who had been proven to have facilitated abusers by moving them around. The spokesman said that it would really take a generation to solve this problem. (Great comfort to the victims, I'm sure.) He didn't say why it couldn't be solved any faster than that. But when asked how long the four facilitators were going to be on the commission to investigate their own coverups, he said, "As long as the Pope wants them there."

So, by all means, Écrasez l’infâme!
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:40 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:(Does he sound like a certain denizens of the White House and Congress? The issue isn't what is revealed; it's the fact that somebody knows it who shouldn't know about it.)
ftfy :mrgreen:


They should have never let them get away with that "infallibility" thing. All devout religious nuts love to adopt it (as privileged children of gog). Even if it has nothing to do with their actual beliefs. And that, my friends, is how you let religion "pervade your entire life", just as the preacher ordered. Take anything and everything and twist it until it fits.
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:52 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:(Does he sound like a certain denizens of the White House and Congress? The issue isn't what is revealed; it's the fact that somebody knows it who shouldn't know about it.)
ftfy :mrgreen:


They should have never let them get away with that "infallibility" thing. All devout religious nuts love to adopt it (as privileged children of gog). Even if it has nothing to do with their actual beliefs. And that, my friends, is how you let religion "pervade your entire life", just as the preacher ordered. Take anything and everything and twist it until it fits.
Yup, that infallibility thing was pushed through by one of the stupidest and most arrogant popes in history, Pius IX. (Aptly called Pio Nono in Italian.) No surprise that he was the hero of John Paul II (another right bastard) and of the whole "traditional Catholic" movement, who just adore his insane "Syllabus of Errors."

But it isn't infallibility that causes the problem of priestly abuse and the coverups. One of the two sympathetic priests in the documentary is a counselor who sees both the victims and the abusers. He gave a diagnosis of the root of the problem: Clerical celibacy and the demand for chastity. This grotesque distortion of human nature cannot be lived up to by most people, and it's worse for those who can. As the counselor says, they are so isolated from human feelings that they just can't begin to understand what the victims are suffering.

The other sympathetic priest is actually an ex-priest who left the church when he realized he was about to be sent to take over for an abusive priest. So many priests were being shipped around that he knew he'd have to decide whether to participate in this outrage or get out of the priesthood. For the good of his soul, he got out.
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:32 pm

I went to a roman catholic grade school in the 50's - just as it was starting its descent .

its interesting to realize that what I was taught was gods church ; actually was and is - just the other god .

how much damage did this thing do over the centuries - I believe it destroyed Europe n Europeans.

created a race of sheeple led by psychopaths.


have to admit the people seemed to do ok - looking at the churches and schools they built .

have to wonder how much better they could have done .


that would be a good bumper sticker

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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:43 pm

>> ...the root of the problem: Clerical celibacy and the demand for chastity.

And to think the original document read "celebrate"! :cry2:
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:59 pm

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
have to wonder how much better they could have done .
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:09 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
have to wonder how much better they could have done .
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀

not fair , I need an explanation

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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:20 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
have to wonder how much better they could have done .
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀

not fair , I need an explanation
I'm not good at "making bumper stickers" ? :-P
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:17 am

there has been tremendous progress when it comes to acknowledging and reporting abuse in the Church, at least relatively speaking, in the last 8 years or so - the reason why we learn of so many scandals now is in no small part due to the Church no longer stonewalling investigations.
Still, I'm not sure how the church can survive this, given that absolutely everyone in power is so old that they must have been part of the cover-up to some degree or other.

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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Gord » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:37 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:I went to a roman catholic grade school in the 50's - just as it was starting its descent .
Wait a minute. Grammar: check (although I don't like the apostraphe after a number, it is too widespread to combat at this time). Spelling: check (I can't remember the last time I saw the word "descent" spelt correctly! by anyone! ever!).

I thought you said you were stupid! You lied on the internets! :posting:
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:13 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:I went to a roman catholic grade school in the 50's - just as it was starting its descent .
To quote Virgil, facilis descensus averno! (Or was it Dante? It is Latin, not Italian, so I'm betting on Virgil.)
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:26 pm

Gord wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:I went to a roman catholic grade school in the 50's - just as it was starting its descent .
Wait a minute. Grammar: check (although I don't like the apostraphe after a number, it is too widespread to combat at this time). Spelling: check (I can't remember the last time I saw the word "descent" spelt correctly! by anyone! ever!).

I thought you said you were stupid! You lied on the internets! :posting:
ooooooo :|




"roman catholic" :heh:
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Gord » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:55 pm

:nownow: If I hold him accountable for not capitalising, I'd have to hold all y'all accountable for not capitalising. I'm looking at you ElectricMonk!
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:39 pm

That would be a catastraphe. :-P
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Gord » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:13 am

scrmbldggs wrote:That would be a catastraphe. :-P
Don't make me come in there. :nownow:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:53 pm

Gord wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:That would be a catastraphe. :-P
Don't make me come in there. :nownow:
Are you now picking on Wiki-p for using the apostraphe correctly? :-P
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:31 pm

from the goode guy :
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command." Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

looked him up on wiki - Operation Höß - wonder how he wrote his name .
Rudolf Höss - Wikipedia

Shortly before his execution, Höss returned to the Catholic Church. On 10 April 1947, he received the sacrament of penance from Fr. Władysław Lohn (pl), S.J., provincial of the Polish Province of the Society of Jesus. On the next day the same priest administered to him Holy Communion as Viaticum.[51]

so he was forgiven his sins .

The same day in a farewell letter to his children Höss told his eldest son:
Keep your good heart. Become a person who lets himself be guided primarily by warmth and humanity. Learn to think and judge for yourself, responsibly. Don't accept everything without criticism and as absolutely true... The biggest mistake of my life was that I believed everything faithfully which came from the top, and I didn't dare to have the least bit of doubt about the truth of that which was presented to me. ... In all your undertakings, don't just let your mind speak, but listen above all to the voice in your heart.


don't accept everything as absolutely true :-/

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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:41 pm

But he still believed in an invisible sky daddy? Or was it because of his upcoming burial?


OFFTOPIC: Stangl apparently couldn't fully face the fact that he/they were killing people at Treblinka and resorted to calling them "cargo".
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:14 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:But he still believed in an invisible sky daddy? Or was it because of his upcoming burial?


OFFTOPIC: Stangl apparently couldn't fully face the fact that he/they were killing people at Treblinka and resorted to calling them "cargo".
i agree , facing death/hanging will make you religious ;
also old age / sickness will do it . wonder if i will ever get religious :roll:
guess a lot of people do not have that fear now , so have no need for religion .
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:17 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:But he still believed in an invisible sky daddy? Or was it because of his upcoming burial?


OFFTOPIC: Stangl apparently couldn't fully face the fact that he/they were killing people at Treblinka and resorted to calling them "cargo".
i agree , facing death/hanging will make you religious ;
and old age will do it . wonder if i will ever get religious :roll:
There might have been something else to it - AFAIK, there are certain rules regarding burial and faith-related issues.



And why burden yourself with religion. Ordinary life can already produce enough strange beliefs as it is. :-P
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:42 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:But he still believed in an invisible sky daddy? Or was it because of his upcoming burial?


OFFTOPIC: Stangl apparently couldn't fully face the fact that he/they were killing people at Treblinka and resorted to calling them "cargo".
i agree , facing death/hanging will make you religious ;
also old age / sickness will do it . wonder if i will ever get religious :roll:
guess a lot of people do not have that fear now , so have no need for religion .
Yeah, I think, as Bertrand Russell said, that belief in the goodness of God is inversely proportional to the evidence. When times are good, people forget God. But plagues, famines, wars, revolutions, etc., all have people flocking to the church for comfort. Apparently, they think God is fooled if they put on a good face when they are desperate. Well,...couldn't hurt, I suppose.

But I'm now a lapsed Catholic for more than half a century, which puts me in a worse state than many of Hitler's minions, who lapsed only for about a decade, and much worse than Hitler himself, who claimed he never lapsed. (But there is no record that he ever went to mass or confession either as an adult. I think he was lying about that for political purposes.) Anyway, I'm now 76, two decades older than Hitler was when he ate a bullet. (And I do think the Catholic Church disapproves of THAT. At least, it always used to do.) And I don't find within myself any idea that I could derive any comfort from going back to the sacraments that I frequented as a youth. In that, I feel in solidarity with my father's family, all of whom scorned the assistance of priests in their final days. Why would anybody want to start over in a new life? Isn't this one enough? What's to fear about oblivion? Granted, there's always that moment of death, but most people are unaware when it happens, and it's unavoidable whether you expect life afterward or not. As Thoreau said, "One world at a time."
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:51 pm

By the way, I'm not sure the advice Höß left for his children is the highest wisdom either. Yes, we think everybody should have a conscience, but I think we'd all be horrified at what some other people find in their consciences. For example, a convinced, traditional Hindu's conscience will tell him that widows should NEVER remarry. (The old tradition of burning the widow on the deceased husband's pyre is not just a legend. The "Arab Herodotus" al-Masudi reports that he actually witnessed this happening, and that there were other women EAGER to be burned so as to attain bliss with the deceased.) And we should never forget that when he learned of the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1572, the Pope ordered a solemn Te Deum Laudamus to be celebrated in honor of this holy triumph. So, in practice, the only person whose conscience I really trust is myself, and I'm not really confident even there.

The horrible truth is, there ISN'T any reliable oracle for morality. You can't trust your own conscience, and you can't trust the society around you, and you CERTAINLY can't trust any old "holy" texts. It's a muddle.
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:04 am

I'd think "Don't accept everything without criticism and as absolutely true... The biggest mistake of my life was that I believed everything faithfully which came from the top..." applies? Isn't a conscience molded by what one is taught/learns to accept as true, even if the heart and/or mind might initially say, that's BS?


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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Gord » Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:56 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Gord wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:That would be a catastraphe. :-P
Don't make me come in there. :nownow:
Are you now picking on Wiki-p for using the apostraphe correctly? :-P
No, just for spelling it correctly. :beee:
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:33 pm

:neener:
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Re: Écrasez l’infâme

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:08 am

One of the villains in the "Code of Silence" documentary was Cardinal Wuerl of Washington, DC. And now it appears he has been allowed to resign. Just exactly like the SEC facilitators of Bernie Madoff. Nobody got fired or prosecuted. There are no consequences for helping to conceal a scandal, not if you have friends at the top. Father Murphy, who molested over 200 deaf boys in Wisconsin, was allowed to die a natural death in 1998 and never prosecuted, despite many decades of complaints against him.

So, Francis I continues the sleazy practice of his predecessors. Like Archbishop Law-Unto-Himself, Wuerl will be allowed to continue as a cardinal unless his victims can get him sent to jail. But I suspect that at the least sign of trouble, Francis will spirit him away to the Vatican, to enjoy gourmet meals and the respect of his fellow facilitators for the rest of his life. Meanwhile, to mend fences with the madmen who call themselves "traditional Catholics," Francis has just emitted a blast at abortion, comparing it to "hiring a hit man." Well, he can fulminate all he likes about it, as long as the laws of secular countries recognize that states have no jurisdiction over the inside of a woman's body; her body is her sovereign territory. (I also would like to keep an awareness of the gruesome nature of abortion. I just don't think there's any good alternative to the "hands off" policy that respects a woman's sovereignty.)

I have abandoned all hope of any real reform, as long as the church continues to insist on obedience. It did overplay its hand in Ireland when the Vatican blamed the bishops for the coverups. Actually, at least some of the bishops wanted to remove abusing priests, but it was canon law that they had to turn all their documents over to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, headed by Cardinal Ratzinger, who refused to allow them to act. That made for a lot of angry Irish bishops. But nothing really came of it except a wholesale abandonment of the Church by lay people.
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