First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

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Re: First Heard, believed = Panama Papers--UPDATE

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 07, 2016 4:27 pm

UPDATE: http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/ma ... injustices

Article claims criminal activity is revealed in the papers, but no specific example is given.....making that issue a bit suspect now.

Of interest is the praise for Snowden and disturbingly that so many news outlets were not interested in publishing the papers.

Our Media really is failing us on so many issues: eg--who is going thru the papers to find the actual frauds rather than just the structure to make fraud easier to hide?
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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby zeuzzz » Sat May 21, 2016 9:44 am

The Putin angle was just picked up initially by a lot of forms of media, because that's what they do with Russia. If they can squeeze an anti-russian / Putin angle out of the leaks they will, and did. I hear the link to Putin is pretty tenuos anyway.

In terms of your above question bobbo it's very easy for me to see how when trawling through these long lists of mega rich people and speaking to them before publishing papers that money would exchange hands at some point to stop certain things coming to light.
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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun May 22, 2016 2:40 am

zzzzzzzzzzz I disagree. The papers show people very close to Putin (childhood friends and old associates in the KGB) are the beneficiaries/controllers of very large investment portfolios even though they have no means of making money much less such large sums of money as to justify a Panama account. Money doesn't grow on trees you know, but if you are BFF with Putin, life is good.
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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun May 22, 2016 6:24 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:zzzzzzzzzzz I disagree. The papers show people very close to Putin (childhood friends and old associates in the KGB) are the beneficiaries/controllers of very large investment portfolios even though they have no means of making money much less such large sums of money as to justify a Panama account. Money doesn't grow on trees you know, but if you are BFF with Putin, life is good.


This is a strange thread.

"An unprecedented leak of documents shows how this money has made members of Putin’s close circle fabulously wealthy. Though the president’s name does not appear in any of the records, the data reveals a pattern – his friends have earned millions from deals that seemingly could not have been secured without his patronage. Some of the reports focused on Roldugin, a childhood friend of Putin who is the godfather of the Russian leader’s eldest daughter. Roldugin was said to be at the center of transactions totaling about $2 billion that involved Bank Rossiya.

If any of you bothered looking.......Roldugin owns 12.5% stake in Russia and Eastern Europe’s biggest TV advertising firm, Video International, which turned over 86 billion rubles, two years ago. Secondly the company was establish in 1987 before Boris Yeltsin was president.

http://www.vi.ru/

Roldugin is also a Cellist. His business partner who established the company is also a well known Russian chess player. That's how Russian businessmen like to be known....as artists & poets. It's traditional. That's why Vladimir Putin plays perfect piano on Russian TV.......he's really a pianist who just happens to be President.

(There are heaps of Russian cultural differences that take time to pick up on)

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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun May 22, 2016 6:56 am

Matt: yeah...I overstated the case there. I guess if Putin gives you the money/contract first then indeed you are rich on your own "merit"......ummm.....until Putin asks you "for a loan."
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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 23, 2016 1:28 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: yeah...I overstated the case there. I guess if Putin gives you the money/contract first then indeed you are rich on your own "merit"......ummm.....until Putin asks you "for a loan."


I have to be careful what I am saying here. There is corruption and cronies getting jobs. It's Moscow. :D

I'm simply suggesting that when the Oligarchs stripped former Soviet state assets and ran overseas, that other Russians bought the same undervalued companies and stayed in Russia and became rich anyway. Putin became friends with the guys who stayed behind to "get in".

Again this is all very murky. It would seem that different people at different times, became aware that Russian "soviet" state companies were incredibly undervalued. It would be hard to say if the good guys or bad guys worked this out first. My gut feeling is that the economic assessment division of the foreign KGB was probably aware and thus many subscribers who received these valuation reports, in other departments, took the opportunity to take the assets and run away. I think there is a bit of shame internally at the old KGB and that why they absolutely hate the oligarchs.

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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 23, 2016 1:39 am

You really want to visit Russia again don't you! I did enjoy my 3 week cruise on the Volga. One of my best experiences ever. So good infact, it is one vacation I would enjoy taking over again.

But............here's a bottom line............do you think if Putin put money into reserve for himself, it would be in his own name anywhere?

Of course...everyone hates the rich, if they want to be rich themselves and have recognized they never will be. Kinda cute you say Putin became friends with the guys who stayed behind. You think the power dynamic runs in that direction????
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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 23, 2016 1:50 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You really want to visit Russia again don't you!
I have acquired rights to a soundtrack music catalogue to lease off as background music on film and TV, in a couple territories. It may pay off. It may not. I don't know yet. [/quote]

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:But............here's a bottom line............do you think if Putin put money into reserve for himself, it would be in his own name anywhere?
Again. I can't say. He has to put some money in the bank under his own name. If he put his "illegal" money through the same bank as the prime minister of England, Finland and Australia, he takes the risk of "loose lips" by bankers. As Western intelligence gathering concerning drug and arms-sales laundering, includes chatting to bankers, this would not be a great plan.

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Re: First Heard, first believed = Panama Papers

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:35 am

Matthew Ellard a couple of years ago wrote:About ten years ago the German Foreign Intelligence service "sold" to other countries, lists of bank accounts in Lichtenstein, handed to them by a informant who was meant to only be looking at one person. Those banks accounts were hidden and thus simply tax avoidance.

A classical example of this was Michael Hutchence, the singer of INXs. He had his millions in off-shore trusts. He did his tax returns at a firm separate from the rest of the band. His own tax lawyers established trusts that were so distant from Michael Hutchence that, when he died, the lawyers simply kept the money. It was a nightmare for his surviving children.


The Michael Hutchence tax avoidance documents have popped up in the recent Paradise Papers. :D

Jamie Packer has also turned up, who was Australia's richest man until he tried to open casinos in Macau. He was done over first by the Chinese Government and now has tax avoidance issues.

(Now I don't really know, but I don't really think an international collective of Journalists broke into foreign legal firms computer systems and released documents to the South German Times newspaper.) :D
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Re: First Heard, first believed = Panama Papers

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:.... His own tax lawyers established trusts that were so distant from Michael Hutchence that, when he died, the lawyers simply kept the money. It was a nightmare for his surviving children.

I wonder what makes Putin think this won't happen to himself? Given this nature of man.....why doens't he turn over a new leaf and actually try to help Russia?

Its what I would think of doing...........but I've never cared that much about money. Ha, ha..........but then, I've never cared that much about my fellow man either. ......................Not much to strive for when you don't care about much of anything.

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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:25 am

Putin knows this is what will happen if he ever relinquishes power, voluntarily or otherwise.
That is why only a revolution or palace coup will free Russia from his reign.

Same is true for dictators almost everywhere.
We might consider a retirement fund for autocrats willing to step down peacefully - there is an experiment like this going on in Africa ... with mixed results.
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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:34 am

Good Idea EM. Of no use to Tryrants on the Rise, but after some time in office and time to reflect, the Pros and Cons could become apparent.

I posted once before this would be an excellent use of those Islands built off Bahrain (where ever). Limited access and easy to guard. Let each Dictator get amnesty if he gives up his $$....to be dedicated back to his people.

...........even Hitler.
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Re: First Heard, first believed = Panama Papers

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:10 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I wonder what makes Putin think this won't happen to himself?
He doesn't invest money in tax schemes where people like myself ( more probably the Germans) can blackmail him.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Given this nature of man.....why doens't he turn over a new leaf and actually try to help Russia?
Putin just eliminated the USA from world affairs and the UK from Europe. Europeans are investing in Russia to make up for the trade loss. All this without firing a shot.

The head of the Russian Foreign service, the SVR, was chosen as he used to run Russia TV 1. This "game" has always been about media. You lot were too busy looking at Trump and forgetting about Russia wanting to move into Europe's economy.
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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby Gord » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:35 am

ElectricMonk wrote:We might consider a retirement fund for autocrats willing to step down peacefully - there is an experiment like this going on in Africa ... with mixed results.

Is there? What's it called and what results have they found so far?
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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:02 am

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Prize

It's more lucrative than the Nobels, but has so far hardly any winners.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: First Heard, f believed - Panama Papers==UPDATE

Postby Gord » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:43 am

ElectricMonk wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Prize

It's more lucrative than the Nobels, but has so far hardly any winners.

Those don't seem to be autocrats, but I could be wrong.
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Re: First Heard, first believed = Panama Papers

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:43 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:(Putin).....why doens't he turn over a new leaf and actually try to help Russia?
Hmmmmm..... I think that just happened. In October Russia signed a 3 billion Arms deal with Saudi Arabia and Non-OPEC countries lead by Russia reduced oil production to increase profit and OPEC followed. King Salman of Saudi Arabia visited Russia. This week Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman started arresting other princes.

Something is going on. I would look for any indicators of Saudi Arabia changing tact, in Yemen, in its proxy war with Iran.


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