Pros and Cons of NDEs

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Pros and Cons of NDEs

Postby Kamil » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:28 am

I have read a lot about NDEs for a long time now, and I want to make a list of aspects that may make them believeable, and also aspects that make them seem like they are nothing more than a brain at work. What you will notice is that many of these claims can vary depending on who interprets them. Usually, these pro claims do somewhat contradict each other.

Let's start with pros:

Pros:

1) We still cannot explain why an NDE occurs. They can happen in a multitude of different environments with different circumstances at play. A person with a heart attack could have one, while a person who is no where near death can have one. For example: in a near car crash. Therefore, the common ideas that oxygen loss or hypoxia can explain them are not fully correct.

2) there are MANY examples of verified OBEs, and quite a few sound very convincing

3) there have been some NDEs where a person will appear to be fully brain dead with a flat eeg, and still be able to explain exactly what happened in an operating room, or better yet, in another room in an area they have never visited. Some amazing feats include: a patient noticing a blood stain on a nurses shoe, a woman never seeing the doctor before, and being able to describe what he looked like fully. A Turkish guy went into his wife's office, and was able to tell her exactly which website she was browsing online.


4) Pro NDE researchers will always claim that the experiences are very consistent. I have noticed the hellish NDEs are very consistent: demons which mock and torture the NDEr, the NDEr calls out to God or Jesus or for help and a hand will rescue them, or a bright light will appear and rescue them.

5) they will argue that when a person awakes from a flat eeg that whatever they experience would be painful, fragmented unorganzied thoughts, while an NDE is organized, peaceful (most of the time) and feels "realer than real life"


Cons:

1) As Shen1986 pointed out recently, there was a study done earlier this month which studied 154 NDE cases. They found that although there is some consistent imagery across the board, there are many different potential elements to an NDE. For example, there may be 10 things one could experience ex: Out of body experience, life review, love, seeing a bright light, meeting dead relatives, meeting deities, etc. Usually, the average person will have about 4 out of 10 probable experiences, all occurring in a different order. This shows they can be inconsistent

2) This is somewhat a rebuttal against the 2nd point under pros. If a person can have an NDE while they are not even close to death, it could mean that whatever occurs during these episodes is not dependent on clinical death. Quite a few NDEs occured when one wasn't even close to death.

3) Dr. Long, the most recent "big name" in NDE research, says NDEs are real because 96% of people see dead relatives. That does not mean that all see dead relatives. In fact, although extremely rare, some people do report seeing living relatives. Pro NDErs will argue that these are hallucinations, while "real NDEs" with dead relatvies are not.

4) Some NDEs are fabricated, and some researchers will take 2-3 cases, and put them together using anonymous names to make them seem better. I have only heard of 2 cases like this, but the fact that this has occurred does call the validity of these claims into question

5) some NDEs in popular NDE literature are 20 years old or even older. This means that a person could have had an experience, and even unintentionally added to it before they submitted it to NDE researchers

6) these cases are anecdotes

7) Even if we cannot explain NDEs today, it does not mean that they are paranormal. As of now, we cannot explain it.


If anyone else finds any cons towards NDEs, let me know. I think Matthew Ellard also brought up a good point numerous times, which was that this so called soul leaves our body, is not supposed to be physical, but can pick up sound and light. Then, it can also float through walls.

It seems like many assumptions are at play here, especially when the expeirencer never actually died to begin with.

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Re: Pros and Cons of NDEs

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:31 am

All your Pros are factually incorrect. I stopped there.

Its a materialistic universe................ie: the brain. Full Stop.
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Re: Pros and Cons of NDEs

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:00 am

K, will you from now on load all your deep thoughts into this thread, please. (I think it's #5492.) Otherwise one is beginning to think that, no matter the flavor, it's still only
Spoiler:
Image
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:43 am

MattMVS7 wrote:I have read a lot about NDEs for a long time now,
No you haven't. Only a month ago you claimed there were no Islamic NDE anecdotes, when pretending to be Kamil the Polish Catholic.
:D
http://www.near-death.com/religion/islam.html

MattMVS7 wrote:Let's start with pros:
Yes. Paranormal NDEs are a hilarious source of laughter for skeptics, as skeptics already know that NDEs are a normal psychological illusion
Near-Death Experiences Explained by Science
https://www.livescience.com/16019-death ... ained.html


MattMVS7 wrote:Cons:
1) Paranormal NDEs are all simply anecdotes and thus like stories about Leprechauns or tooth fairies or meeting Santa.

2) No one has ever been able to set out a scientific hypothesis for paranormal NDEs.

3) Science already knows what self-perceived psychological NDEs are.


You have now been trolling this same question for four years, on music forums, religious forums, cooking forums, depression forums, skeptic forums, Mushroom forums, Zelda video game forums, Super Mario Bros forums, Sonic the hedgehog video game forums and so on...

I laughed when you posted your NDE essay on the psychedelic mushroom shoomery forum
:D
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showfl ... r/23765733

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Kamil » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:52 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
MattMVS7 wrote:I have read a lot about NDEs for a long time now,
No you haven't. Only a month ago you claimed there were no Islamic NDE anecdotes, when pretending to be Kamil the Polish Catholic.
:D
http://www.near-death.com/religion/islam.html

MattMVS7 wrote:Let's start with pros:
Yes. Paranormal NDEs are a hilarious source of laughter for skeptics, as skeptics already know that NDEs are a normal psychological illusion
Near-Death Experiences Explained by Science
https://www.livescience.com/16019-death ... ained.html


MattMVS7 wrote:Cons:
1) Paranormal NDEs are all simply anecdotes and thus like stories about Leprechauns or tooth fairies or meeting Santa.

2) No one has ever been able to set out a scientific hypothesis for paranormal NDEs.

3) Science already knows what self-perceived psychological NDEs are.


You have now been trolling this same question for four years, on music forums, religious forums, cooking forums, depression forums, skeptic forums, Mushroom forums, Zelda video game forums, Super Mario Bros forums, Sonic the hedgehog video game forums and so on...

I laughed when you posted your NDE essay on the psychedelic mushroom shoomery forum
:D
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showfl ... r/23765733


I'm not that Matt guy. I simply write about NDEs and so does he. You have absolutely no proof this is the case. You are just taking 2 ppl who post questions and ideas about a common topic. That's like me saying you are the Matt guy because you both have the same name. It's absurd. I invite you to actually prove it is the same person. You cannot.

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Re: Pros and Cons of NDEs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:00 am

scrmbldggs wrote:K, will you from now on load all your deep thoughts into this thread, please.
I know it is MattMVS7. He made some forum name slips when copying and pasting his NDE spam.

However, the funniest thing he did was troll a whole bunch of "home recording music" forums and asked people if they could produce his "music". It was very funny.


Home Recording Forum
http://homerecording.com/bbs/general-di ... ng-349962/

Cakewalk Music Software Forum
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Could-someone ... 15349.aspx

Music Banter Home Recording Forum
http://www.musicbanter.com/general-musi ... -song.html

Flip Side Home Recording forum
http://www.theflipsideforum.com/index.php?topic=24647.0

This is the song he asked these people to produce. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMPYi3TbfoU&list=PLyVYnRYQOpIpUFRVHm59-AhLlOIBl0V22&index=7

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:04 am

MattMVS7 wrote: I'm not that Matt guy. I simply write about NDEs and so does he.
No Matt you forgot your two slight problems. :lol:

1) You can't speak Polish, so pretending to be a Polish Catholic in Poland doubting his Catholic faith was pretty stupid. :D

2) You forgot Poland is in European Central Time and you don't really post at 4am, in Poland, do you?
:lol:

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Kamil » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
MattMVS7 wrote: I'm not that Matt guy. I simply write about NDEs and so does he.
No Matt you forgot your two slight problems. :lol:

1) You can't speak Polish, so pretending to be a Polish Catholic in Poland doubting his Catholic faith was pretty stupid. :D

2) You forgot Poland is in European Central Time and you don't really post at 4am, in Poland, do you?
:lol:


Anyone can post at anytime, and regardless of that, you think by talking about time zone inconsistencies that you proved that I am the Matt you speak of? And how does music come into this equation at all? You found another online user who posts about metaphysical ideas and NDEs. Woopdie doo. You really hit the nail on the head, seeing as me and that Matt guy are the only two people on this planet who post about NDEs.... I'm sorry Mathew, but finding one or two parallels means nothing. If I go and find 2 people who talk about cooking Steak and they both have similar cooking preparations, opinions, and both post around 3-6 AM every morning, does that mean it's the same person?

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:30 am

MattMVS7 wrote: Anyone can post at anytime,
...and you choose to post from Poland at 4AM?

Hey MattMVS7, translate this for me......

mattMVS7 from Poland.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Kamil » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
MattMVS7 wrote: Anyone can post at anytime,
...and you choose to post from Poland at 4AM?

Hey MattMVS7, translate this for me......

mattMVS7 from Poland.jpg


You have no proof I lied on the forum. And guess what Matty? Even if I did, DUH DUH DUH even if I'm a 79 year old woman from Finland or a 10 year old computer whiz from China, you still have failed to prove that I am that Matt guy you are so sure of. You claim to be a skeptic and then you jump to these conclusions which are weak. I think you are logical in most things on this forum, but this isn't one of them.

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:44 am

MattMSV7 wrote: You have no proof I lied on the forum.
I see that you have now magically lost the ability to speak Polish.

That must be very concerning to you as you claimed to be a Polish person in Poland.

Have you asked your American psychiatrist what your problem is?
:lol:

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Kamil » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
MattMSV7 wrote: You have no proof I lied on the forum.
I see that you have now magically lost the ability to speak Polish.

That must be very concerning to you as you claimed to be a Polish person in Poland.

Have you asked your American psychiatrist what your problem is?
:lol:

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:49 am

And?

Do you think copying my post will bring back your Polish Language skills?
:lol:

You will now start another thread and start all over again? That would be more than twenty NDE threads, you have started, so far to spam the same thing.

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Kamil » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:And?

Do you think copying my post will bring back your Polish Language skills?
:lol:

You will now start another thread and start all over again? That would be more than twenty NDE threads, you have started, so far to spam the same thing.


I'm not trying to spam at all. I just keep finding claims that are hard to explain away and i want to have them explained away because I hope there won't be life after death

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:52 am

Matt MVS7 wrote:I'm not trying to spam at all. I just keep finding claims that are hard to explain away and i want to have them explained away because I hope there won't be life after death
Yes you are. You keep opening new threads to repeat the same crap you spammed last time.

Why don't you simply join the same NDE thread you started using the sock-puppet name Omniverse and that way you can play with yourself all day!
:lol:

Evidence for NDEs by MattMSV7 as Omniverse
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=28112&p=575739#p575719

Omniverse wrote:I'm not trying to spam at all. I just keep finding claims that are hard to explain away and i want to have them explained away because I hope there won't be life after death

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Re: Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:11 am

MattMVS7 wrote: I'm not trying to spam at all.
You do realise that to have a near death experience.......you need to be near death?

Thankfully, you explained an experimental mechanism, you have adopted, for us, on another forum.
MattMVS7 wrote: But where I am getting at is that I am in a dangerous situation here since I cannot have a bowel movement due to this obsessive worry. If I don't have a bowel movement within a certain time and it all builds up in my system, I will die.

http://www.crazyboards.org/forums/index ... ent=923912

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Re: Pros and Cons of NDEs

Postby mirror93 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:54 am


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Matt MVS7 Trolling Thread No16

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:42 am

mirror93 wrote: What the {!#%@} is that? :confused:


That's the trolling prop MattMVS7 uses to troll about 100 forums. He calls them compositions. His trolling game, to annoy forums since 2015, goes like this......

"I am depressed because I can't record my compositions, because I am so depressed. Unless you tell me how to make more compositions, I will kill myself but I can't do that at moment because I don't want to have a terrible Near Death Experience. "

The joke is that he has always been recording these videos. He had a whole psychiatric forum telling his video was "good" before they worked out he was a troll and banned him.

Here is one of his compositions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFxE4jC-v-c

Here is his accompanying suicide threat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng5DyeMcG8o

Here he is himself pretending to be a tree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KrT8TNVj0s

He is known mostly as a 29 year old troll from the USA, for asking many forums, "if a nerd could strangle a bully with his legs?" and this evolved into "If I get strangled, do I have a horrible near death experience" about three years ago.

The only disgusting thing is he mostly trolls children's video game forums.
:D

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Re: Pros and Cons of NDEs

Postby gorgeous » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:29 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:All your Pros are factually incorrect. I stopped there.

Its a materialistic universe................ie: the brain. Full Stop.

------then why are they finding non-physical dimensions?
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Re: Pros and Cons of NDEs

Postby Gord » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:43 pm

Pro: It's an experience.
Con: That whole "death" thing.

Pro: Getting to talk about your NDE incessantly.
Con: Having to hear about your NDE incessantly.

Pro: Cheaper than drugs.
Con: You can't pass it around the campfire and share it.

Pro: OBE.
Con: OBE.
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Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:19 pm

gorgeous wrote:------then why are they finding non-physical dimensions?

Name one non physical dimension other than time.

Poor poor Gorgeous. Is Matt MSV7 taking all your attention as the new troll in town?
:lol:

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Re: Pros and Cons of NDEs

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:37 pm

99 NDE threads in this place.
99 NDE threads.
You close 'em down in a massive crackdown.
A million more NDE threads in your face.
:roll:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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