An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

PSI, Mediums, Ghosts, UFOs, Things That Go Bump In The Night
User avatar
Cygnus_X1
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:08 am
Location: Middle Of Nowhere

An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:56 am

When I got my first viewing of 8K video, I was wowed and my first reaction was that it looked so much 'more real' than 1080p video...which it does. There is an enhanced sense of reality to it.

And that got me thinking. People often describe NDEs as seeming 'more real' than the everyday world. BUT...we are never told just how good their normal eyesight is. 8K is closer to the actual resolution of the human eye. All the mechanisms in the brain exist to perceive at such resolution, and if we don't in everyday life it is largely the eyes that are responsible. But it is entirely possible that in a hallucinatory state the brain can produce high resolution imagery. The experiencer will then perceive this as being 'more real' in much the same way as seeing 8K video for the first time seems 'more real'.

In other words, it isn't genuinely more real...its just that everyday experience and lack of 20/20 eyesight give most people a 'less real' perceived reality to compare with.
100,000 lemmings can't be wrong.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29477
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Gord » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:06 pm

Since NDEs occur in the brain, I don't know if the resolution of the eye plays much role. The sense of reality seems more complicated than that.

I went looking for information and found this (philosophy) paper, which I have not read entirely: https://philpapers.org/archive/FARASO-3.pdf

Hallucinations occur in a wide range of organic and psychological disorders, as well as in a small percentage of the normal population (Bentall 1990). According to usual definitions in psychology and psychiatry, hallucinations are sensory experiences which present things that are not there, but are nonetheless accompanied by a powerful sense of reality. As Richard Bentall puts it, “the illusion of reality ... is the sine qua non of all hallucinatory experiences” (Bentall 1990: 82). The aim of this paper is to find out what lends an experience ‘a sense of reality’: what features are required for an experience to feel ‘real’, in the relevant sense? I will investigate the claim that phenomenological features are largely responsible for a sense of reality, and will find this claim wanting. My suggestion is that a sense of reality is created and sustained by the larger nexus of the subject's beliefs.

I'm not intending to imply any agreement with the author's conclusions, merely to point out that what creates our "sense of reality" may be more than just the resolution of the eye.

The paper ends with the comparison between two quotes:

Contrast the different views expressed in the following quotes:

What the experience of reality is in itself can hardly be deduced nor can we compare it as a phenomenon to any other related phenomena. We have to regard it as a primary phenomenon which can be conveyed only indirectly. ... In contrast with our imaginings, perception has a quality not determined by the particular sense-organ ... which is something absolutely primary and constitutes sensory reality ... We can talk about this primary event, name it and rename it, but cannot reduce it any further. (Jaspers 1959/1997, p. 94)

Reality is not given by experience, but by judgement processes. The characteristics of mental experience that provide it with the quality of reality are similar for perception, event memories, and beliefs ... Reality testing of ongoing perception and reality monitoring of memories and beliefs are complex judgement processes that are subject to error and more difficult in some situations than others. (Johnson 1988, p. 57)
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Cygnus_X1
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:08 am
Location: Middle Of Nowhere

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:37 pm

"Since NDEs occur in the brain, I don't know if the resolution of the eye plays much role."

All of what we 'see' occurs in the brain. It's only after a lot of processing that we are conscious of it. So we don't directly see what hits the retina anyway. If the original source is dodgy eyes, then the processing does not clear that up. But if the source is within the brain itself, there's no blurry vision to clear up. This would explain the sharpness and clarity of DMT trips...and NDEs.

My point was that this might give an illusory sense of 'more real'...just as the 8K video does.
100,000 lemmings can't be wrong.

User avatar
Cygnus_X1
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:08 am
Location: Middle Of Nowhere

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:39 pm

It's worth pointing out that this isn't something one needs to argue over. It is testable. Are people with not-so-good eyesight more likely to report NDEs as seeming 'more real' than everyday life ?
100,000 lemmings can't be wrong.

User avatar
gorgeous
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4213
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby gorgeous » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:50 pm

no , nde's are more real...not our limited reality....people often say there is a spectrum of colors and music far above our existence........like nothing they have ever seen or heard before...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26786
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:56 pm

gorgeous wrote: nde's are more real
supply your evidence or go away.
gorgeous wrote: .people often say there is a spectrum of colors and music far above our existence.
Name one and supply a link or go away.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29477
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Gord » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:52 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
gorgeous wrote: .people often say there is a spectrum of colors and music far above our existence.
Name one and supply a link or go away.

Actually, that's a pretty interesting topic. The human brain is apparently able to see "impossible colours", like reddish-green or bluish-yellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossibl ... olor_space

Since they're not real, they're considered "hallucinations": https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... en-colors/

People can be made to see reddish green and yellowish blue—colors forbidden by theories of color perception. These and other hallucinations provide a window into the phenomenon of visual opponency....

The "forbidden colours" are also described as "surprisingly vivid": https://www.livescience.com/17948-red-g ... olors.html

...When the experiment is done correctly, he said, the perceived color was not muddy at all, but surprisingly vivid: "It was like seeing purple for the first time and calling it bluish red."...

In other words, the colours and vividness are created in the brain, not by the eye.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
gorgeous
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4213
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby gorgeous » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:20 pm

real
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
True Skeptic
Posts: 10535
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:25 pm

Gord wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
gorgeous wrote: .people often say there is a spectrum of colors and music far above our existence.
Name one and supply a link or go away.

Actually, that's a pretty interesting topic. The human brain is apparently able to see "impossible colours", like reddish-green or bluish-yellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossibl ... olor_space

Since they're not real, they're considered "hallucinations": https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... en-colors/

People can be made to see reddish green and yellowish blue—colors forbidden by theories of color perception. These and other hallucinations provide a window into the phenomenon of visual opponency....

The "forbidden colours" are also described as "surprisingly vivid": https://www.livescience.com/17948-red-g ... olors.html

...When the experiment is done correctly, he said, the perceived color was not muddy at all, but surprisingly vivid: "It was like seeing purple for the first time and calling it bluish red."...

In other words, the colours and vividness are created in the brain, not by the eye.


The phenomenon of synesthesia is strong evidence for perceptual details being created in the brain from signals from the sensors.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19816
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:26 pm

Could explain why some blind people report experiencing 'picturesque' NDEs. For some it might be memories, for others that it's not that their eyes are (entirely) fawlty, but some glitch in the whole mechanism doesn't allow for proper functioning.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
gorgeous
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4213
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby gorgeous » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

people are often also shown events in their future...such as who they will marry, who their kids will be..and they come true even many years later...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26786
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:22 pm

gorgeous wrote:people are often also shown events in their future...
You have failed to offer any evidence for this for five years. All you did was confirm that one "remote viewer" claimed humans evolved from otters.
Otter 2.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:07 pm

Cygnus_X1 wrote:It's worth pointing out that this isn't something one needs to argue over. It is testable. Are people with not-so-good eyesight more likely to report NDEs as seeming 'more real' than everyday life ?

I'm horribly nearsighted: -6.5 in my right eye and -7.0 in my left eye. I've never had a NDE, but I did experience hypnagogic hallucinations for quite a long time until my sleep disorders were treated...and they were incredibly realistic.

However, I don't believe my testimony has value in this context, for the following reasons:
• I didn't believe any of the hallucinations were real experiences.
• I took the time to examine each one in minute detail.
• As soon as I was free of the sleep paralysis, I wrote down my observations.
• I've recounted each hallucination more than once.

So, my anecdotal narrative consists of a combination of my actual memory of the event, my memory of what I wrote in my notes, and my memory of the last time I recounted a particular hallucination, all in the context of my certainty that I was having hypnagogic hallucinations, not real experiences.

(Interestingly, one of the clues that instantly led me to the conclusion that I was hallucinating was the fact that I could see them so clearly. I've been nearsighted for more than 40 years and can't see past the end of my nose without my contacts...and I take them out before bed. My conclusion was confirmed by the appearance of a 2m tall beetle-like hallucination designed by H.R. Giger, a clear violation of the square-cube law. :mrgreen: Suffice it to say I'd never be crowned the White Queen in my beloved Wonderland. :? )
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:24 pm

Gord wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
gorgeous wrote: .people often say there is a spectrum of colors and music far above our existence.
Name one and supply a link or go away.

Actually, that's a pretty interesting topic. The human brain is apparently able to see "impossible colours", like reddish-green or bluish-yellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossibl ... olor_space

Since they're not real, they're considered "hallucinations": https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... en-colors/
Impossible? Not when both colors appear at once, and your eyes can't untangle them.

Bluish-yellow:
Image

Reddish-green:
Image
Note: That's not a glass of water from Flint, Michigan; it's a glass of beet-kale juice. No, I don't know why.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29477
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Gord » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:34 am

Those are green and brown. The impossible colours are different, apparently.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:09 am

They don't appear to my eyes as green and brown. My eyes don't mix them for some reason. In the first photo, I see blue and yellow together, not green. In the second one, I see red and green, not brown. I'm NOT saying that I can magically see 'impossible colors,' just that seeing colors is subjective.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19816
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:50 am

Ah, now we know who has neuronal entanglements, and who doesn't. :-P
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29477
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Gord » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:48 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:They don't appear to my eyes as green and brown. My eyes don't mix them for some reason. In the first photo, I see blue and yellow together, not green. In the second one, I see red and green, not brown. I'm NOT saying that I can magically see 'impossible colors,' just that seeing colors is subjective.

I think you're seeing the blue and yellow and red and green because the mixing is not complete. In other words, you're seeing individual areas as those specific colours, and not both at once.

The links I gave explain it better.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: An Explanation for Why NDE's Seem 'More Real'

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:02 pm

Gord wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:They don't appear to my eyes as green and brown. My eyes don't mix them for some reason. In the first photo, I see blue and yellow together, not green. In the second one, I see red and green, not brown. I'm NOT saying that I can magically see 'impossible colors,' just that seeing colors is subjective.

I think you're seeing the blue and yellow and red and green because the mixing is not complete. In other words, you're seeing individual areas as those specific colours, and not both at once.

The links I gave explain it better.
I agree with you; my eyes aren't mixing the colors that are there. That's the subjective part, likely because I've spent the better part of 35 years staring at Pantone swatches. :mrgreen: I did read the link, and certainly don't disagree with the science.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


Return to “UFOs, Cryptozoology, and The Paranormal”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests