Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

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Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Kamil » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:08 pm

Here are some arguments against current scientific ideas about Near Death Experiences:
First, Lack of Oxygen to the brain:
Hogan: Lack of oxygen causes stupor without memories of the experience. People experiencing NDEs report enhanced consciousness not stupor and they remember their NDE. "Dr. Fred Schoonmaker, a cardiologist from Denver, had by 1979 carried out investigations of over 2,000 patients who had suffered cardiac arrests, many of whom reported NDEs. His findings showed that NDEs occurred when there was no deprivation of oxygen." The primary features of acceleration-induced hypoxia, however, are myoclonic convulsions (rhythmic jerking of the limbs), impaired memory for events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, tingling in the extremities and around the mouth, confusion and disorientation upon awakening, and paralysis, symptoms that do not occur in association with NDEs. Moreover, contrary to NDEs, the visual images Whinnery reported frequently included living people, but never deceased people; and no life review or accurate out-of-body perceptions have been reported in acceleration-induced loss of consciousness.

Parnia raises another problem: When oxygen levels decrease markedly, patients whose lungs or hearts do not work properly experience an “acute confusional state,” during which they are highly confused and agitated and have little or no memory recall. In stark contrast, during NDEs people experience lucid consciousness, well-structured thought processes, and clear reasoning.

Next: Brain activity

NDEs cannot be caused by brain activity during CPR because CPR patients report confusion and amnesia while NDErs report lucid experiences. NDEs often begin before CPR is administered and the quality of consciousness and the pattern of events in NDEs does not change once CPR is started. Also, if consciousness in NDEs is caused by CPR, the patients should remember the pain of compressions and cracked ribs that sometimes occur during CPR, but NDErs do not feel the pain from CPR.

Finally, according to a Neurosurgeon named Greenfield: ""It’s very unlikely that a hypoperfused brain (someone with no blood flow to the brain), with no evidence of electrical activity could generate NDEs. Human studies as well as animal studies have typically shown very little brain perfusion (blood flow) or glucose utilization when the EEG is flat. There are deep brain areas involved in generating memories that might still operate at some very reduced level during cardiac arrest, but of course any subcortically generated activity can’t be brought to consciousness without at least one functioning cerebral hemisphere. So even if there were some way that NDEs were generated during the hypoxic state (while the brain is shut off from oxygen), you would not experience them until reperfusion (blood flow) allowed you to dream them or wake up and talk about them."

What do atheists have to say about these arguments for an afterlife?

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:12 pm

Post related stuff in one of the many already existing threads?
.

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Kamil » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:10 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Post related stuff in one of the many already existing threads?


this is a new thread. I've gathered sources now. All of my other threads were only about speculations, no sources.

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:19 pm

Kamil wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Post related stuff in one of the many already existing threads?


this is a new thread...

:| You don't say...
.

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:26 pm

...and I certainly hope you don't expect that anyone will go through the hassle of googeling any of your "sources" to verify that what you claim they prove say is even true. (I already know Parnia is quite liberal with what's commonly known as truth. :heh:)
.

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Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:57 pm

Matt MSV7 pretending to be Kamil the Polish Catholic wrote:Here are some arguments against current scientific ideas about Near Death Experiences:


Dr Fred Shoonmaker Debunk (Never did any formal research)
"Schoonmaker did not publish his 1979 studies even though he reported them to colleagues"
https://harmoniaphilosophica.wordpress. ... eferences/

R. Craig Hogan, Ph.D. Debunk (wasn't a doctor)
"R. Craig Hogan, Ph.D., is the director of the Center for Spiritual Understanding, dedicated to helping people establish and maintain ongoing relationships with loved ones who have passed from the Earth plane to the next plane of life."
http://afterlifeconnections.org/craig.htm

Sam Parnia Debunk (Shen already debunked Parnia on our forum over an entire thread)
viewtopic.php?t=19749#p322254

Matt MSV7 pretending to be Kamil the Polish Catholic wrote:What do atheists have to say about these arguments for an afterlife?
We say
1) Stop copying and pasting off "woo websites"
2) Stop pretending to be Polish.
3) Don't start new threads to repeat the same crap you have posted before, as Matt MSV7 and as Omniverse.

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Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:01 pm

Hey Kamil.......you can speak Polish. Can you translate these PDFs and essays on Polish NDEs for us?

Śmierć jest prawdopodobnie innym stanem naszej świadomości - mówi holenderski kardiolog
http://natemat.pl/99331,smierc-jest-pra ... -kardiolog

Spór naukowców w sprawie tzw. doświadczenia śmierci
http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-oneci ... erci/7ws5e

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Troll Thread Matt MSV7

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:03 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:...and I certainly hope you don't expect that anyone will go through the hassle of googeling any of your "sources" to verify that what you claim they prove say is even true. (I already know Parnia is quite liberal with what's commonly known as truth. :heh:)

Matt MSV7 copied and pasted "his essay" from an English language woo website ( Not Polish) . It was already debunked 5 years ago. This is too easy.

Hey Kamil Good News. You don't have to post here in English anymore. I found the Polish Skeptics Society for you.

Klub Sceptyków Polskich
http://sceptycy.org/

:lol:

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:57 am

Kamil wrote:What do atheists have to say about these arguments for an afterlife?
1. We already debunked all of these in other threads, which you should have read before posting. In fact, I'm fairly certain I debunked several of these in direct posts to you.

2. This is the nth thread you've started on the exact same topic. Please stop. Your only concern is the afterlife and NDEs. All your stuff on this topic should be in one thread.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby KevinLevites » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:32 am

There are, sometimes, simpler explainations for the NDE.

I've posted this in another thread, and have had a few letters printed in Skeptical Inquirer on this.

I was a paramedic, and wheeled a terminally ill patient into an elevator while taking him from the hospital to a hospice facility.

He started laughing when we reached the ground floor...because he thought he died on my stretcher.

He described the sensation of floating above his body while looking down at himself.

We returned to the same hospital later that night for another call, and I discovered that the elevator had a mirrored ceiling.

When I started to look, I discovered that mirrored ceilings are not uncommon in hosptals.

If you want to create an out of body experience, spin around until you are very dizzy, lie on the floor in an elevator with a mirrored ceiling, and have an assistant push the down button.

The dizziness, feeling of reduced weight from downward motion, and contemplation of your own reflection combine to make a credible OBE and/or NDE.

Try it.

You'll see. I'm not joking and/or being sarcastic.

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:12 am

KevinLevites wrote:There are, sometimes, simpler explainations for the NDE.

Howdy Kevin. I wish this thread was about NDEs, but it isn't. It's about a troll who keeps asking the same questions about NDEs under different sock-puppet names. His aim is to get skeptics to do lots of work, while he simply cuts & pastes the same questions from his previous posts. :D

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby KevinLevites » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:28 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
KevinLevites wrote:There are, sometimes, simpler explainations for the NDE.

Howdy Kevin. I wish this thread was about NDEs, but it isn't. It's about a troll who keeps asking the same questions about NDEs under different sock-puppet names. His aim is to get skeptics to do lots of work, while he simply cuts & pastes the same questions from his previous posts. :D


Ok. Thank you.

I didn't realize that the poster was a pathological trouble maker just for the sake of being a trouble maker.

All my best.

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:53 am

"NDEs cannot be caused by brain activity during CPR because CPR patients report confusion and amnesia while NDErs report lucid experiences. "

All of which raises the valid question of whether the NDE does actually occur at the moment of CPR.
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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Shen1986 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:31 pm

Kamil wrote:First, Lack of Oxygen to the brain:
Hogan: Lack of oxygen causes stupor without memories of the experience. People experiencing NDEs report enhanced consciousness not stupor and they remember their NDE. "Dr. Fred Schoonmaker, a cardiologist from Denver, had by 1979 carried out investigations of over 2,000 patients who had suffered cardiac arrests, many of whom reported NDEs. His findings showed that NDEs occurred when there was no deprivation of oxygen." The primary features of acceleration-induced hypoxia, however, are myoclonic convulsions (rhythmic jerking of the limbs), impaired memory for events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, tingling in the extremities and around the mouth, confusion and disorientation upon awakening, and paralysis, symptoms that do not occur in association with NDEs. Moreover, contrary to NDEs, the visual images Whinnery reported frequently included living people, but never deceased people; and no life review or accurate out-of-body perceptions have been reported in acceleration-induced loss of consciousness.


The problem for NDE believers here is that the experiences are very similar which shows that NDEs and these kind of experiences are hallucinations. That is what believers do not want to acknowledge. Their bias stands in the way.

Kamil wrote:Parnia raises another problem: When oxygen levels decrease markedly, patients whose lungs or hearts do not work properly experience an “acute confusional state,” during which they are highly confused and agitated and have little or no memory recall. In stark contrast, during NDEs people experience lucid consciousness, well-structured thought processes, and clear reasoning.


Here Parnia claims nonsense. How can a person have a clear reasoning in a NDE? When most of the time they are just observers with little questioning? Its like claiming that during sleep I have total control over myself and that i wanted to dream a nightmare with Leatherface.

Kamil wrote:NDEs cannot be caused by brain activity during CPR because CPR patients report confusion and amnesia while NDErs report lucid experiences. NDEs often begin before CPR is administered and the quality of consciousness and the pattern of events in NDEs does not change once CPR is started. Also, if consciousness in NDEs is caused by CPR, the patients should remember the pain of compressions and cracked ribs that sometimes occur during CPR, but NDErs do not feel the pain from CPR.


You do not remember pain when you are also drugged or in sleep. Most NDEs happen in hospital settings under drugs so no wonder you feel no pain.

Kamil wrote:Finally, according to a Neurosurgeon named Greenfield: ""It’s very unlikely that a hypoperfused brain (someone with no blood flow to the brain), with no evidence of electrical activity could generate NDEs. Human studies as well as animal studies have typically shown very little brain perfusion (blood flow) or glucose utilization when the EEG is flat. There are deep brain areas involved in generating memories that might still operate at some very reduced level during cardiac arrest, but of course any subcortically generated activity can’t be brought to consciousness without at least one functioning cerebral hemisphere. So even if there were some way that NDEs were generated during the hypoxic state (while the brain is shut off from oxygen), you would not experience them until reperfusion (blood flow) allowed you to dream them or wake up and talk about them."


And where does it is written that a NDE happened when the brain was dead? Nowhere. Second NDEs are testimonies they are said after the blood flow returns. So the good doctor is blinded by his bias here. All he has are stories of patients who claim it happened when their brain was dead but they can be wrong. We got the story after they return. Also another problem is if it happens when they are dead why do the souls of those who left the body do not communicate with the living? Why do they not appear to the good doctors??

Kamil wrote:What do atheists have to say about these arguments for an afterlife?


That this was debunked millions time before and its nothing new. Same arguments twisted with ignorance without looking for the newest data in neuroscience. However if they would look for answers there would be no NDE crowd and they would not be able to milk millions out of people who want to believe.

Conclusion: Nothing new.
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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Kamil » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:15 pm

Shen, Penny Sartori is also a researcher and says this about the medication argument:

Are NDEs merely hallucinations caused by drugs? Clearly not — as 20 per cent of the patients in my sample, including Tom Kennard, had received no drugs at all.

Indeed, when I analysed my research, I found that pain-killing and sedative drugs, particularly at high levels, seem to make it less likely that a patient will have an NDE.


I do have one question though in all of this which doesn't make sense to me in these arguments I posted: some of these NDE researchers claim that they studied for example 2000 people who had cardiac arrest and later had NDEs. They then say that during the NDE, the patients had perfect levels of oxygen in their brains. My questions to this are:

1) how do they know "when" exactly it occured
2) don't all cardiac arrest patients by definition lose oxygen supply to the brain? When the heart quits pumping, won't oxygen to the brain, even if only temporarily decrease? Therefore, don't all cardiac arrest patients have lack of oxygen in the brain?

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Shen1986 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:33 pm

Kamil wrote:Shen, Penny Sartori is also a researcher and says this about the medication argument:

Are NDEs merely hallucinations caused by drugs? Clearly not — as 20 per cent of the patients in my sample, including Tom Kennard, had received no drugs at all.

Indeed, when I analysed my research, I found that pain-killing and sedative drugs, particularly at high levels, seem to make it less likely that a patient will have an NDE.


Penny Sartori - yeah sure a believer: viewtopic.php?t=22033

Also read what you wrote. If sedatives and drugs have a influence on NDEs that you do NOT have them then NDEs are hallucinations or are physical and NOT paranormal because why a soul a immaterial soul would be influenced by drugs or sedatives?? When according to some NDE believers a soul can even heal cancer - we had these kind of NDEs here. So what is the truth Kamil now? A soul that can cure cancer and do magic or a soul that can be stopped by sedatives and painkillers?

Kamil wrote:I do have one question though in all of this which doesn't make sense to me in these arguments I posted: some of these NDE researchers claim that they studied for example 2000 people who had cardiac arrest and later had NDEs. They then say that during the NDE, the patients had perfect levels of oxygen in their brains. My questions to this are:

1) how do they know "when" exactly it occured
2) don't all cardiac arrest patients by definition lose oxygen supply to the brain? When the heart quits pumping, won't oxygen to the brain, even if only temporarily decrease? Therefore, don't all cardiac arrest patients have lack of oxygen in the brain?


1. They do not know when it happened. They are guessing according to the story and claims of the person who had a NDE but that is false because not even the patient can know when it happened. That is believe and not science.
2. Not all it depends if they receive First Aid and the procedure during it. There are studies that claim that First Aid and procedures can save brains and the oxygen.
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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:54 pm

Kamil wrote: Shen, Penny Sartori is also a researcher and says this about the medication argument:

Are NDEs merely hallucinations caused by drugs? Clearly not — as 20 per cent of the patients in my sample, including Tom Kennard, had received no drugs at all.

Indeed, when I analysed my research, I found that pain-killing and sedative drugs, particularly at high levels, seem to make it less likely that a patient will have an NDE.


I do have one question though in all of this which doesn't make sense to me in these arguments I posted: some of these NDE researchers claim that they studied for example 2000 people who had cardiac arrest and later had NDEs. They then say that during the NDE, the patients had perfect levels of oxygen in their brains. My questions to this are:

1) how do they know "when" exactly it occured
2) don't all cardiac arrest patients by definition lose oxygen supply to the brain? When the heart quits pumping, won't oxygen to the brain, even if only temporarily decrease? Therefore, don't all cardiac arrest patients have lack of oxygen in the brain?

There were all debunked before when you made this posts under your other sock puppet names Omniverse and Matt MSV7. You are simply trolling. :lol:

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Gord » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:51 am

Penny Sartori: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Sartori

Sartori worked as an intensive care nurse for seventeen years, during which time she cared for many patients who were close to death. As a result of these experiences, she began researching near-death experiences, culminating in the publication of her monograph The Near-Death Experiences of Hospitalized Intensive Care Patients: A Five Year Clinical Study, which was published by the Edwin Mellen Press in 2008. Her work also gained her a PhD in 2005.

A PhD in what, from where? I don't understand. How do you gain a PhD by writing a book three years before it's published?

Wow, that wikipedia entry seems to have been taken verbatim from her own website (I guess it could have been the other way around, but does that make it better or worse?): http://www.drpennysartori.com/

Dr Penny Sartori worked as a nurse in a British hospital for 21 years, 17 of those being in Intensive Care. She is highly experienced and skilled in her role as an intensive care staff nurse; and has conducted unique and extensive research into the near-death experiences (NDEs) of her patients. In 2005 she was awarded a PhD for her research into NDEs.

Okay, here we go, I found it: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... ea-2032843

Dr Penny Sartori was awarded a PhD by the University of Wales, Lampeter, for researching the spooky world of near-death experiences (NDEs) reported by patients at Swansea’s Morriston Hospital.

And then there's this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7639798.stm

My scientific training as a nurse told me that these experiences couldn't possibly be more than an overactive imagination or some kind of wishful thinking or hallucination as the brain was shutting down as death approached.

Wow, her scientific training as a nurse told her that? That's amazing! What nursing school taught her that? None of the nurses I know were taught that.
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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Shen1986 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:27 pm

The University departments do not give me more confidence because they are too philosophic and religious like where Sartori received her PhD. It is akin to the theology faculty in my country. They have similar or the same departments and studies:

Academic departments[edit]
Chinese Studies[12]
Classics[13]
Film and Media[14]
English[15]
Management and Information Technology[16]
Philosophy[17]
Theology, Religious Studies and Islamic Studies[18]
Voluntary Sector Studies[19]
Archaeology, History and Anthropology

Defunct departments[edit]
Physical Science
Mathematics
Geography
Centre for Australian Studies in Wales
Modern Languages (French, German and Swedish)
History (due to merging of departments)
Archaeology and Anthropology (due to merging of departments)
Welsh - no longer taught at undergraduate level


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universit ... epartments
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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby gorgeous » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:59 pm

you don't feel pain when not in the body....they don't want to return to the body for that reason...some are told they must go back........
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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:07 pm

Yesterday morning, right before I woke up, I had an incredibly vivid dream. In it, a close friend of mine was almost matter-of-factly preparing to suicide. I was sad, but not trying to talk her out of it. Instead, I was helping her prepare. Her reason was that a man she claimed was possessed by a demon was harassing her and would, eventually, capture her soul. She felt she had no choice but to preempt him. This close friend was about my age, give or take, with pale skin, very dark brown shoulder-length hair, hazel eyes, and about 168cm tall and 68kg in weight.

The significance of this dream?
• I can picture exactly what this "close friend" looks like...and I don't know anyone of that description.
• I am philosophically opposed to suicide and would never help someone commit the act.
• I don't believe in demons, possession, and souls.
Yet when I awoke, I had tears in my eyes and a great deal of difficulty dispelling the sadness prompted by the dream situation, to which I have no real world attachment.

The mind works in mysterious ways which, frequently, we cannot decode. Perhaps I was carrying some emotional dissonance that required expression, so my brain established a scenario unrelated to my real life, a "safe space" in which I could express it without dwelling on it. Maybe my brain just threw a bunch of ingredients into my subconscious blender, and that's the cocktail that emerged. Who knows?

The only use that dreams and weird experiences have for me is fodder for short stories. I've used the hypnagogic hallucinations I experienced (since I always wrote them down), the concept of the earworm, the idea of writer's block, my daughter's penchant for urban exploration, my collection of medical diagnoses, and more.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Kamil » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:55 am

those are good points Nicki and Shen. The dream comparison was interesting, and it did sound incredibly vivid and even frightening. One thing that pro NDE researchers will happily point out is that dreams, although sometimes extremely vivid, don't always make complete sense, whereas NDEs do. However, I am willing to accept that point, as it is true. The brain can conjure up some pretty teriffic imagery.

What would you say about Hellish NDEs where a person generally sees absolute darkness, hears screams, then meets demons who torture them and mock them. Then they generally call out to God/Jesus or for help and a deity such as Jesus will come in the form of bright light and rescue them, or a hand will come down and grab them from the danger. It seems really consistent. There are many hellish NDEs that sound very similar. WOuld you say that they could be true because they are all so consistent?

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Matt MVS7 Trolling Thread No6

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:06 am

How desperate of you to post this a 5am in the morning "in Poland". ( You forgot again about faking your posting times from the USA, Matt MSV7 ) :lol:

Kamil wrote:What would you say about Hellish NDEs where a person generally sees absolute darkness, hears screams, then meets demons who torture them and mock them.
Someone watches lots of horror films


Can't you remember your "horror Film" music compositions?
:lol:

"True intense Horror" by Matt MSV7 aka Omniverse aka Kamil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi4yQPw9FP4&list=PLyVYnRYQOpIpUFRVHm59-AhLlOIBl0V22&index=18

"Creepy Rap" by Matt MSV7 aka Omniverse aka Kamil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnCtpZit1mA&list=PLyVYnRYQOpIpUFRVHm59-AhLlOIBl0V22&index=9
Last edited by Matthew Ellard on Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:08 am

Kamil wrote:One thing that pro NDE researchers will happily point out is that dreams, although sometimes extremely vivid, don't always make complete sense, whereas NDEs do.
Really? To whom? They all sound nonsensical to me.
Kamil wrote:What would you say about Hellish NDEs where a person generally sees absolute darkness, hears screams, then meets demons who torture them and mock them. Then they generally call out to God/Jesus or for help and a deity such as Jesus will come in the form of bright light and rescue them, or a hand will come down and grab them from the danger. It seems really consistent. There are many hellish NDEs that sound very similar. WOuld you say that they could be true because they are all so consistent?
I would say that the people who experience hallucinations like that are canalized by their religious upbringing, and simultaneous petrified they're going to die, so they see the symbols they expect to see.

Religion makes people feel guilty for being human. Do anything that's perfectly normal and naturally a part of human nature, and religion makes it a sin. Sex? Sin (unless you're in a heterosexual marriage sanctified by the church, that is). Masturbation? Sin. Alcohol? Sin. Singing? Sin (unless you're singing hosannas to the lord). Dancing? Sin. Let's just sum it up: religion teaches you that if it feels good, it's a sin. To make a pun, god forbid you behave like you're human.

So when you're in a situation where you know you might die, you feel guilt and shame. Hence the religious symbols in the NDEs. It's your own mind acting out your guilt and shame, using symbols you can understand. Now, I know you're going to say, "But atheists see these things too!" Not all of them. You've read descriptions of NDEs from websites that believe in the supernatural, so of course they're only going to report the religious NDEs. I've read plenty of descriptions from atheists who have had NDEs...with NO religious symbols.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Shen1986
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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Shen1986 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:22 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:You've read descriptions of NDEs from websites that believe in the supernatural, so of course they're only going to report the religious NDEs. I've read plenty of descriptions from atheists who have had NDEs...with NO religious symbols.


Yes here one of that sort. Not completely religious free but with NO god, heaven or angels but figures made out of light but the author does not claim it were angels. This was triggered by meditation alone:

Her experience is not unique and there have been others who have had an NDE triggered by meditation. Her experience also appears in Kevin Williams' book, Nothing Better Than Death.
Close your eyes for a moment and try to imagine that you are face to face with the sun! What an extraordinary feeling! I thought to myself:

"How can I be face to face with the sun and not feel the burning heat?"

This first thought shocked and puzzled me - to be thinking in the way I would normally think.

It was literally so bright that I could not sustain the gaze so I turned away. At that moment I noticed a silver cord, attached around the navel area going down, down, down to a person I saw lying on my bed. It was me! I had a curious non-interest in it.

Suddenly, I was in dark outer space, floating as it were on my back, in what I can only describe as total "bliss" (one of a few words which I'll explain later I had never understood before that point!)

I'm not sure how long this ecstatic feeling lasted but it was what I suppose is called Cosmic Consciousness or cosmic bliss. I knew that: the Universe is upheld by love (though if you ask me now I would not be able to explain that!)

I knew that the planets are alive and conscious. I knew that they would never bump into each other on purpose or cause any damage - there was no violence but rather a total harmony in their existence.

I then looked down and could see the Earth - far far away and down in this dark sky. I knew that it was a place of violence, a realm shrouded in darkness and difficulties, so to speak.

At one point I saw what I can only describe as a group of beings - perhaps Beings of Light would describe them best. I then zoomed over to them - literally willed myself over to them (swoosh!) and was there instantaneously.

They were seated (?) in an oval circle and there seemed to be a leader of some sort at the head of the group.

First of all, I felt the most overwhelming love coming from them! It cannot be compared to anything here on Earth. For one, I felt that it was an inclusive group - rather than an exclusive one. (Here on Earth we seem to have trouble letting new people into groups but there it was as if all of them at the same time were welcoming me!)

I heard them - in my mind - say, "Welcome home! You have been on such a long journey!"

I had the feeling that they were sharing life experiences and learning from each other, as if in a sort of classroom.

I didn't have time to find out because at this point I said to the leader, again telepathically, "I cannot stay! I have to bring up my son!" with a real sense of urgency.

At the time my son was 4 years old and I knew somehow that I had the absolute obligation to bring him up and take care of him. Years later, when I thought of this, I understood that we live in a "moral" Universe.

I immediately started coming down again. And as I was coming down, I saw - as if written on the entire dark sky - this message:

"There is nothing worth worrying about! Not even death!"

And again I knew - or understood in an instant that death is exactly like falling asleep.

What happens is that you let go of daily consciousness and slip into another. Or for that matter, like waking up - you let go of sleeping consciousness and find yourself in our recognized reality. It was an incredible feeling of peace to know that there is no death!

All of a sudden, I was awake and I literally ran to my table to write everything down because I knew that the 'veils' (another new word for me) were going to fall and that I would forget or lose the feeling of the experience. I had the feeling that a shaft of light had come down through the top of my head. The top of my head was literally tender!

The third word I came to know was "grace" (which up to that point I thought meant the prayer that Christians say at the dinner table.)

I had been an atheist - or agnostic - up until my experience but after that, though the veils did fall down again, I have spent the last 20 years, trying to recapture that feeling, that absolute knowing. I feel closer and closer to it all the time now.


Source: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/t ... ation.html
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:49 pm

Sounds like the Organians from Star Trek...and nothing like a religious NDE.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Best arguments for NDEs, with sources

Postby Shen1986 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:34 pm

Kamil why are you asking here and on the ask the atheist? Also why are you using a different name there?. Also its not your first posts there many same questions with different user names are posted there which later on appeared here:

Question from Mirek:
Here are some arguments against current scientific ideas about Near Death Experiences:

First, Lack of Oxygen to the brain:
Hogan: Lack of oxygen causes stupor without memories of the experience. People experiencing NDEs report enhanced consciousness not stupor and they remember their NDE. “Dr. Fred Schoonmaker, a cardiologist from Denver, had by 1979 carried out investigations of over 2,000 patients who had suffered cardiac arrests, many of whom reported NDEs. His findings showed that NDEs occurred when there was no deprivation of oxygen.” The primary features of acceleration-induced hypoxia, however, are myoclonic convulsions (rhythmic jerking of the limbs), impaired memory for events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, tingling in the extremities and around the mouth, confusion and disorientation upon awakening, and paralysis, symptoms that do not occur in association with NDEs. Moreover, contrary to NDEs, the visual images Whinnery reported frequently included living people, but never deceased people; and no life review or accurate out-of-body perceptions have been reported in acceleration-induced loss of consciousness.

Parnia raises another problem: When oxygen levels decrease markedly, patients whose lungs or hearts do not work properly experience an “acute confusional state,” during which they are highly confused and agitated and have little or no memory recall. In stark contrast, during NDEs people experience lucid consciousness, well-structured thought processes, and clear reasoning.

Next: Brain activity
NDEs cannot be caused by brain activity during CPR because CPR patients report confusion and amnesia while NDErs report lucid experiences. NDEs often begin before CPR is administered and the quality of consciousness and the pattern of events in NDEs does not change once CPR is started. Also, if consciousness in NDEs is caused by CPR, the patients should remember the pain of compressions and cracked ribs that sometimes occur during CPR, but NDErs do not feel the pain from CPR.

Finally, according to a Neurosurgeon named Greenfield: “”It’s very unlikely that a hypoperfused brain (someone with no blood flow to the brain), with no evidence of electrical activity could generate NDEs. Human studies as well as animal studies have typically shown very little brain perfusion (blood flow) or glucose utilization when the EEG is flat. There are deep brain areas involved in generating memories that might still operate at some very reduced level during cardiac arrest, but of course any subcortically generated activity can’t be brought to consciousness without at least one functioning cerebral hemisphere. So even if there were some way that NDEs were generated during the hypoxic state (while the brain is shut off from oxygen), you would not experience them until reperfusion (blood flow) allowed you to dream them or wake up and talk about them.”

What do atheists have to say about these arguments for an afterlife?


Source: http://asktheatheist.com/?p=3410
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.


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