Defending Reincarnation

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:23 am

ThinkingJim wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
ThinkingJim wrote: My belief is that they (souls) start from lower kingdoms of life and go higher. .
Two seconds ago you said you didn't know what a soul was? What changed? :D

So are you saying a paramecium has a soul? So how do you know that you don't have the soul of a reincarnated paramecium?
paramecium.jpg

ThinkingJim wrote: ...but that's not what I'm trying to defend
You seem very reluctant to set out any working hypothesis that you pretend to be defending. Set out your working hypothesis now.


Alright, I'll try to set out a hypothesis:

If reincarnation is true, then all mundane explanations will fail to explain the best case of a phenomenon where memories of a past life are later verified in the real world.


That's actually a bad hypothesis. So let me try again. Okay if I were trying to explain the phenomenon of how children remember past lives, I'd say that there exists "something capable of gaining and retaining memories" wherein the memories were gained from one person and transferred to another person. -- In all honesty, I think I better be going as I don't think past lives fit inside the mold of the scientific method very well.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:34 am

ThinkingJim wrote:Okay if I were trying to explain the phenomenon of how children remember past lives,

You would first need to compare the alternative hypotheses.

As you seem unable to write down your paranormal hypothesis, the more conventional hypothesis will probably be accepted.


( Please don't use Ian Stevenson's gun shot - birthmark stories as evidence of reincarnation. 68,000 men died on one day of gunshot wounds in WWI and there was no increase in birthmarks. Please remember that we have heard most of these stories before)

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:35 am

Did you even glance at Matts link regarding what a hypothesis is?

If you did not....do.

If you did.........do again.

Thats a strike one.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby ThinkingJim » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:41 am

Just curious, why do you want a hypothesis if you can't do an experiment?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:42 am

ThinkingJim wrote:I want to defend the claim that reincarnation is real. Someone give me counter-evidence or a counter-argument, if you can, make it the ones you believe in.
The issue is that no one can provide a counter argument because you have not yet provided an argument. Some ideas to include...

1. Define what you mean by "reincarnation." Is it limited to humans? If other life forms are included, are entities reincarnated as the same life form, or is it possible to be reincarnated as a different life form?

2. What is the method by which the ego is conserved between the death of the current body and the birth of the new body? Are you postulating the existence of a "soul?" If so, how is it defined in your hypothesis? If not, how does this transfer of consciousness occur, and why are previous "lives" generally forgotten?

3. If an entity can be reincarnated as a different life form, can a carpenter ant retain human experiences? Vice versa? What happens to the neuronal impulses that don't fit into the new brain? (The human brain is far more complex than that of a carpenter ant.)

4. If the time period between death and rebirth is not instantaneous, where does the ego reside during this "waiting period?" How does it maintain its integrity?

Just off the top of my head.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:45 am

ThinkingJim wrote:Just curious, why do you want a hypothesis if you can't do an experiment?

How do you know if you haven't even written a hypothesis? I'm waiting. :lol:

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:46 am

ThinkingJim wrote:Just curious, why do you want a hypothesis if you can't do an experiment?

Are you saying you can't make a hypothesis concerning the soul? That you can do no experiments?

These and many other issues are resolved when you DEFINE what you are talking about. Its the simplest thing you can do. Forming hypotheses comes even later, ie...its more complex or developed.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Gord » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:47 am

ThinkingJim wrote:...I don't think past lives fit inside the mold of the scientific method very well.

I think it does.

Here's a link to how the scientific methods works: https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science- ... fic-method
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:48 am

ThinkingJim wrote:I want to defend the claim that reincarnation is real. Someone give me counter-evidence or a counter-argument, if you can, make it the ones you believe in.

Prove your case. Or fail like all before you.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Phoenix76 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:57 am

ThinkingJim wrote:I want to defend the claim that reincarnation is real. Someone give me counter-evidence or a counter-argument, if you can, make it the ones you believe in.


Well Jim, I've come in on this thread a little late, but no matter.

See Jim, it is not up to us to disprove reincarnation, or souls, but rather the obligation is on you to put proof of reincarnation or souls.

There is a scientific way of doing all of this. Firstly, you have a theory. Then you look for association. But then you must move forward and show causation. And if you can't do this, then it remains a theory which most of us skeptics just cannot accept.

And to believe in reincarnation and souls, me thinks that one would also have to believe in a god. But see Jim, nobody's ever proven god either. This deity called god is just like the bible, a fairy tale, unless somebody can prove it. And believe me, people have been trying for ever to prove any of this. God, bible, jesus christ, the devil, or whatever, no proof whatsoever.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby gorgeous » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:25 am

what proof would convince you?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Poodle » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:23 pm

A tad on the oxymoronic side, gorgeous. Just proof. you know?

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby gorgeous » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:21 pm

what type of proof? a note from God? a valentine from Jesus?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby gorgeous » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:38 pm

anyone?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:52 pm

gorgeous wrote:anyone?


No, not anyone. I could write a note and it would prove only that I know cursive.

A note from god might be ok, but who would authenticate the handwriting?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:58 pm

Here's a little note, 'splaining why georgie is as georgie does.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:23 pm

Proof.

Well........it really would have to include a god that communicated fairly regularly with us? So totally easy for him to do. he would also then get the praise he seems to demand. Its god's work, but seems to me if he went around answering the questions/if not the prayers of all involved, I know I'd be quickly convinced. Kinda like a very powerful Alexis or Siri without the equipment charges.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:53 pm

Ah, but you haven't paid them charges, have you? Or do you have an automatic collection plate refill plan?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:14 pm

Eggs: well....with direct communication established......wouldn't all the churches and religions immediately lose relevance? Hey.......that would be further proof. Does raise the interesting scenario: god does exist and he speaks to each and everyone "all the time." Direct and immediate responses as only god could do. But what would he "DO" besides tell us to worship him ...etc? Ie: the mystery of how prayers answered could ever be established except in an explosion for parallel universes.........also very easy for god to do. Yep...a new universe times number of prayer requests made. Amusing. That would be additional proof as well? God...where did I leave my car keys????

course with a functioning prayer answering God.......cars would not need keys. Nor would we need cars to begin with. "God....please transport me to Taco Bell."....oh heck: "God...please give me a Taco."

I sure hope God wakes up.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:16 pm

Which one of the many gods? :-P
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:27 pm

I would rank order them.

Only answers questions some of the time.

Answers all questions all of the time.

fullfills prayer requests not an afront to himself.

A new universe for each prayer granted.

Could God lift a rock that prayed: get along with the other Gods? Only god knows.........but that would be proof.

Yes.................all KINDS of proof are totally possible. Ha, ha.............but no evidence to date.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby gorgeous » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:27 pm

speaks to everyone.......where would the proof be? you would say they are hallucinating...answers all prayers?...you would call those coincidences...maybe God does talk to you but you won't listen....
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby gorgeous » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:29 pm

you have your belief system and expect God to fit into it...how about your belief system is limited ...you don't get the big picture and see the reason why things happen as they do....?
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:32 pm

I think new grade school classes start up soon. Care to enroll?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:30 pm

gorgeous wrote:what proof would convince you?

As no one has bothered to describe what the mechanism of reincarnation is ( a working hypothesis) we are not even at that stage yet. You can prove something you can't even describe.

Therefore reincarnation remains in the same set as Leprechauns, Pixies, the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:35 pm

gorgeous wrote:anyone?

Cool. :D Gorgeous?

1) Explain to us what "souls" are made of.
2) Show us your proof for your explanation.
:lol:

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:15 pm

gorgeous wrote:speaks to everyone.......where would the proof be? you would say they are hallucinating...answers all prayers?...you would call those coincidences...maybe God does talk to you but you won't listen....

Ha, ha..........G.....that is really stupid on so many levels. Who are you channeling?

If "everyone" had a common experience......don't you think that would be proof? What element is missing?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby gorgeous » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:22 pm

why wouldn't everyone be having hallucinations? where is the proof that you exist?
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:24 pm

gorgeous wrote:why wouldn't everyone be having hallucinations? where is the proof that you exist?

Stop avoiding the question Gorgeous.

1) Explain to us what "souls" are made of.
2) Show us your proof for your explanation
:lol:

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:58 am

Even if, by some absurd jiggery pokery of physics a person could actually 'remember' the life of some long dead person....that does not mean that they literally physically 'were' that person.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:12 am

Everyone knows you can't have past life memories of someone else? You are a victim of current pop culture blending of the old verities. Besides.......its not someone else.....its "you" in a prior life. See.... no conflicts at all.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:01 pm

And if reincarnation meant that the egos of all life forms were reincarnated as each other, how on Earth would you tie in memories of your past life as a carpenter ant into your current life as a human? No frame of reference. The memories would make no sense to your human brain. And vice versa...if a lifetime of human experience would even fit into the brain of a carpenter ant.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby gorgeous » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:07 pm

you are meant to forget past lives to focus on the current life....there is past life regression...can relive horrible deaths if you want to...then meet with a council of highly evolved souls to assess your progress and plan your next life...
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:20 pm

gorgeous wrote:you are meant to forget past lives to focus on the current life....there is past life regression...can relive horrible deaths if you want to...then meet with a council of highly evolved souls to assess your progress and plan your next life...


So, past life memories are in a schroedinger's box?

Then why can't I remember anything from when I was a cynodont? I could tell the paleontologists all manner of good things about life in the Triassic.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Poodle » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:38 pm

You would definitely have remembered my Great2079 Aunt Bessie, famous for being the first cynodont to develop the single-bone mandible fashion. SUCH a graceful cyno ...
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Gord » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:39 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
gorgeous wrote:you are meant to forget past lives to focus on the current life....there is past life regression...can relive horrible deaths if you want to...then meet with a council of highly evolved souls to assess your progress and plan your next life...

So, past life memories are in a schroedinger's box?

Then why can't I remember anything from when I was a cynodont? I could tell the paleontologists all manner of good things about life in the Triassic.

I remember the Triassic. They only had one flavour of ice cream: Dragonfly. Tasted terrible, but came in huge portions. Huge.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:29 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:And if reincarnation meant that the egos of all life forms were reincarnated as each other, how on Earth would you tie in memories of your past life as a carpenter ant into your current life as a human? No frame of reference. The memories would make no sense to your human brain. And vice versa...if a lifetime of human experience would even fit into the brain of a carpenter ant.

In georgie's case the transfer was literally complete. It still has the actual brain of the dung beetle it was before.
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Gord » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:20 am

Image
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:42 am

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Re: Defending Reincarnation

Postby Confidencia » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:46 pm

ThinkingJim wrote:I want to defend the claim that reincarnation is real. Someone give me counter-evidence or a counter-argument, if you can, make it the ones you believe in.



There is nothing that you can experience that is real. The mind is as false as the ideas that it conjures up. As for reincarnation there is no argument counter or otherwise. Reincarnation is a belief, a matter of opinion; it is not a fact. There is no proof for it and even if there were the evidence would be very flimsy. The fact of the matter is nobody or nothing dies in the real sense of the word or is even born for that matter. People and things simply appear and disappear. Ideas are born and it is the idea that dies nothing else. You have an idea about yourself, that idea that you have about yourself is what dies, not you. Reincarnation can easily be dismissed as mere make believe or wishful thinking. Find out what what you are in reality and you will find the answers to your questions about reincarnation.
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