Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

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Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Kamil » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:07 am

I looked at more cultural differences between NDEs. Much of these differences are in contrast with current research, which claims that all NDEs are the same with the same features, the only differences that exist are interpretation. Ex: Person A may see a light and interpret that light as Jesus while person B may see a light and interpret it is Allah.
Earlier research from the 80s and 90s was taken from countries like Thailand, India, Japan, China, Zambia, etc.
What I find curious is that in these non-Western NDEs with the exception of China and Japan, there seem to be little to no Out of body experiences reported, and no light at the end of a tunnel. Judgement takes place, and seeing deceased relatives are common among Eastern and Western NDEs. Why though, if NDEs are biological in origin, do we not see OBEs and lights in India to the same extent. In a study of 55 in India, only 1 had an OBE, and in the west, we always hear of OBEs. Shouldn't a dying brain also produce OBEs in India, or shouldn't deprivation of oxygen to the eye also cause a bright light in India?

Does this give the soul idea a stronger case?

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:09 am

No.
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:11 am

Kamil wrote:I looked at more cultural differences between NDEs. Much of these differences are in contrast with current research
You are lying. There is no "research" saying NDEs will belong to one culture or another.

Show us your scientific paper that claims this?


Kamil wrote:Does this give the soul idea a stronger case?
You claim to be a Polish Catholic. Go ask your Catholic priest and stop wasting our time.

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:12 am

scrmbldggs wrote:No.
Matt MSV7 and Kamil started posting at the same time in this recent batch of trolling nonsense.

It's 6am in Poland at the moment. The idiot forgot about time zones again.
:lol:

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Kamil » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kamil wrote:I looked at more cultural differences between NDEs. Much of these differences are in contrast with current research
You are lying. There is no "research" saying NDEs will belong to one culture or another.

Show us your scientific paper that claims this?


Kamil wrote:Does this give the soul idea a stronger case?
You claim to be a Polish Catholic. Go ask your Catholic priest and stop wasting our time.



take a look at this
https://infidels.org/library/modern/kei ... ifferences

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Kamil » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:17 am

there is a variety of research in different areas, and they should all have similar features if they are biological

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:43 am



That is not a scientific paper. Where are the statistics or hypothesis?

Again, stop wasting our time with your personal doubt. Either you believe in Catholicism or you don't. Either you believe NDE's are magical paranormal events or you don't.

Until you can actually write down your scientific claim for souls, stop posting on our science forum.

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:44 am

Kamil wrote:there is a variety of research in different areas, and they should all have similar features if they are biological
Complete crap. Humans are all humans, and have a whole range of different sorts of dreams. Stop making up bull-shit stories and posting them here.

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:50 am

Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar? //// Just as you say: its CULTURALLY DRIVEN, not biologically driven. Can't you understand what you write yourself?...... or is it meaningless to you as well??
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:54 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar? //// Just as you say: its CULTURALLY DRIVEN, not biologically driven. Can't you understand what you write yourself?...... or is it meaningless to you as well??


Don't worry. This is all about Matt MSV7 trolling about NDEs again. Kamil ( Matt MSV7) claims to be in Poland but forgot it was 6am in Poland when he posted this. He also can't speak Polish.

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:34 am

Kamil wrote:Does this give the soul idea a stronger case?

catholic priest.jpg
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Gord » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:03 am

Kamil wrote:What I find curious is that in these non-Western NDEs with the exception of China and Japan, there seem to be little to no Out of body experiences reported, and no light at the end of a tunnel.

So-called "NDEs" and "OOBs" are caused by the brain and then interpreted by societal norms. If a brain thinks it is having an OOB or an NDE, it might explore the event further in the same way a fat old man on a bus might explore a fart, extending it over time under it has become an epic journey of discovery.
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:06 am

If he has to be under it, no wonder he's always OutOfBreath.
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Gord » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:20 am

scrmbldggs wrote:If he has to be under it, no wonder he's always OutOfBreath.

I said "until" but my fingers didn't understand 'cause I was mumblin'.
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby gorgeous » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:39 pm

So-called "NDEs" and "OOBs" are caused by the brain and then interpreted by societal norms.---------no evidence of this.....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:25 pm

Kamil wrote:I looked at more cultural differences between NDEs. Much of these differences are in contrast with current research, which claims that all NDEs are the same with the same features, the only differences that exist are interpretation.
What research claims this? Links, please.
Kamil wrote:Earlier research from the 80s and 90s was taken from countries like Thailand, India, Japan, China, Zambia, etc. What I find curious is that in these non-Western NDEs with the exception of China and Japan, there seem to be little to no Out of body experiences reported, and no light at the end of a tunnel.
You're asking us to make a judgment based on hearsay, that is to say, based on what you're telling us. Provide some evidence.
Kamil wrote:Why though, if NDEs are biological in origin, do we not see OBEs and lights in India to the same extent.
Numerous different causes of NDEs have been identified, including hypoxia, biochemical, reaction to physical trauma, medicinal, etc. Why would you expect all NDEs, therefore, to be the same?
Kamil wrote:In a study of 55 in India, only 1 had reported having an OBE, and in the west, we always hear of OBEs.
FIFY...you are, once again, attempting to draw a rational conclusion from anecdotal data. Always? Does every single Western NDE include an OBE?
Kamil wrote:Shouldn't a dying brain also produce OBEs in India, or shouldn't deprivation of oxygen to the eye also cause a bright light in India?
Where is the scientific research that concludes that a dying brain produces OBEs? Where is the scientific research that concludes that ocular oxygen deprivation causes perception of a bright light?
Kamil wrote:Does this give the soul idea a stronger case?
No. You haven't provided any evidence at all. For anything.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:20 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote: ...
Kamil wrote:In a study of 55 in India, only 1 had reported having an OBE, and in the west, we always hear of OBEs.
FIFY...you are, once again, attempting to draw a rational conclusion from anecdotal data. Always? Does every single Western NDE include an OBE? ...


Oops... I had assumed that he had meant a random 55 people interviewed on the street. Bad me. :?

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Shen1986 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:58 pm

Kamil wrote:I looked at more cultural differences between NDEs. Much of these differences are in contrast with current research, which claims that all NDEs are the same with the same features, the only differences that exist are interpretation. Ex: Person A may see a light and interpret that light as Jesus while person B may see a light and interpret it is Allah.
Earlier research from the 80s and 90s was taken from countries like Thailand, India, Japan, China, Zambia, etc.
What I find curious is that in these non-Western NDEs with the exception of China and Japan, there seem to be little to no Out of body experiences reported, and no light at the end of a tunnel. Judgement takes place, and seeing deceased relatives are common among Eastern and Western NDEs. Why though, if NDEs are biological in origin, do we not see OBEs and lights in India to the same extent. In a study of 55 in India, only 1 had an OBE, and in the west, we always hear of OBEs. Shouldn't a dying brain also produce OBEs in India, or shouldn't deprivation of oxygen to the eye also cause a bright light in India?

Does this give the soul idea a stronger case?


The same reason why everyone had different dreams. Its like a roulette some of your dreams are about cars, others about horses, others about Freddy Kruegger, other about Leatherface or you have different nightmares etc. Does that make them special? No. The same can be applied to NDEs and OBEs they sometimes happen. its like dreams that are great they sometimes happen but are they paranormal? No.

Also it does not give a stronger case for a soul. Here are reasons why:

1. You forgot about Elvis, that people in a NDE met Elvis and he was not just light so your claim here is wrong Kamil and you did NOT do your homework as you claim:

Kamil wrote:I looked at more cultural differences between NDEs. Much of these differences are in contrast with current research, which claims that all NDEs are the same with the same features, the only differences that exist are interpretation. Ex: Person A may see a light and interpret that light as Jesus while person B may see a light and interpret it is Allah.


Here is Elvis and no he was not just some light - he was Elvis like Jesus:

After Elvis died, some people also reported seeing Elvis during an NDE. NDEs frequently involve the experiencer being greeted by someone - usually someone they deeply love, such as a deceased family member, a religious figure such as Jesus, or the so-called "Being of Light." So when Elvis died, people who knew Elvis or had special feeling for Elvis, began reporting being greeted into heaven by Elvis himself. For example, according to Dr. Melvin Morse in his book on NDEs entitled Transformed by the Light, a 45-year old Mid-western teacher saw Elvis in an intense light during her NDE. The woman had met Elvis when she was a child. The following is her near-death testimony:
1
Elvis After Life"I entered into a dark tunnel and suddenly I was in a place filled up with love and a beautiful, bright light. The place seemed holy. My father, who had died two years earlier, was there, as were my grandparents. Everyone was happy to see me, but my father told me it was not my time and I would be going back. Just as I turned to go, I caught sight of Elvis! He was standing in this place of intense bright light. He just came over to me, took my hand and said, "Hi, Bev, do you remember me?"

The number of reported "Elvis sightings" have been so great, that Dr. Raymond Moody wrote an entire book about them entitled Elvis After Life. Moody is the author of Life After Life; and coined the phrase "near-death experience." He is the considered the "father" of the NDE phenomenon. Because of the large number of devoted Elvis fans, it shouldn't come as a big surprise that people having NDEs should be greeted by a King - the King of Rock and Roll.


Source: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/r ... s.html#a24

2. Problem: OBE is not always common in NDEs if you think even the study you read proves this.

3. Problem: If god or gods would exist do you think that the only way to gives us a hint of a soul world be a NDEs?? This seems too stupid if you ask me from these beings. If you want to prove a soul you need more then NDEs and secondly we would already find some hints that something like this exists no?
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby gorgeous » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:35 pm

you meet people you knew in life at least one I saw was a kid who had met Elvis....as an adult she met the dead Elvis in her nde....common...Elvis loved people and helping them ...not hard to believe he would want to help them understand life and death....people have many transforming experiences other than nde's and obe's....you say it makes no sense because this and this therefore it's not real....doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you....it's still real....what more other than nde's do you need to prove a soul?....give details....
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:58 pm

It's no use peddling your meth dreams here as RL stories. It won't make it so. Plz get help
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:30 pm

gorgeous wrote:you meet people you knew in life at least one I saw was a kid who had met Elvis....as an adult she met the dead Elvis in her nde....common...Elvis loved people and helping them ...not hard to believe he would want to help them understand life and death....people have many transforming experiences other than nde's and obe's....you say it makes no sense because this and this therefore it's not real....doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you....it's still real....what more other than nde's do you need to prove a soul?....give details....


Define "a soul" for us Gorgeous.

And while your there, explain to us how you simultaneously claim
1) Alien shape-shifting reptiles control the world subjugating humans
2) An all powerful Christian God controls the world and protects humans on Earth.
3) The secret Illuminati really controls the world but never noticed the alien shape-shifting reptiles also in control
4) God can't do anything about the Illuminati or Shape shifting aliens,
5) Seth the channeled alien from Atlantis, who built the pyramids, never noticed the shape shifting aliens either,
6) You evolved from otters.

:lol:

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:35 am

The otter egg. Image
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:20 am

Otters lay eggs?! :shockd:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:36 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:Otters lay eggs?! :shockd:

No, silly. They cough them up! :milkspew:
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:41 am

Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Shen1986 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:15 am

Kamil wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kamil wrote:I looked at more cultural differences between NDEs. Much of these differences are in contrast with current research
You are lying. There is no "research" saying NDEs will belong to one culture or another.

Show us your scientific paper that claims this?


Kamil wrote:Does this give the soul idea a stronger case?
You claim to be a Polish Catholic. Go ask your Catholic priest and stop wasting our time.



take a look at this
https://infidels.org/library/modern/kei ... ifferences



It seems to me Kamil that you did not read that, because its a atheist debunking of NDES to show that they are just hallucinations a good starting point for those who want to have a better look at NDEs and that they do not hold water and without the whole New Age stuff around them.
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:14 am

Shen1986 wrote: It seems to me Kamil that you did not read that,....


Kamil "from Poland" is a sock puppet for Matt MSV7. Matt MSV7 is a well known troll who goes to skeptic forums and asks ridiculous questions to make people waste their time answering him. His current theme is NDEs. He is a 29 year old American and mostly posts on children's video game forums. If you check his posting times it is actually between 4am and 6am in Poland and Kamil can't actually speak Polish..

In the last month he has pretended to be Polish (Kamil), Indonesian ( Anthony) and English (OmniConSu) under three different names. He is also using the name Omniverse to tell us his life story every two weeks.
:D

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Kamil » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:44 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Shen1986 wrote: It seems to me Kamil that you did not read that,....


Kamil "from Poland" is a sock puppet for Matt MSV7. Matt MSV7 is a well known troll who goes to skeptic forums and asks ridiculous questions to make people waste their time answering him. His current theme is NDEs. He is a 29 year old American and mostly posts on children's video game forums. If you check his posting times it is actually between 4am and 6am in Poland and Kamil can't actually speak Polish..

In the last month he has pretended to be Polish (Kamil), Indonesian ( Anthony) and English (OmniConSu) under three different names. He is also using the name Omniverse to tell us his life story every two weeks.
:D


That's wrong. Prove your point. Rather than jumping to conclusions. 2 things. 1) just because I post on English speaking forms doesn't mean I don't speak Polish 2) posting between 4-6 am doesn't mean I'm not in Poland either. If I look at your time zones, I'm sure I could catch you posting during non-conventional times too.

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby gorgeous » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:53 pm

no evidence it's hallucinations either...
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:40 pm

Image
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:18 am

Kamil wrote:That's wrong. Prove your point.
You were pretending to be posting from Poland and forgot the time zone was 5am in Poland. You then posted three minutes later as Omniverse. In both posts you were trolling about NDEs.

Go away.

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:24 am

gorgeous wrote:no evidence it's hallucinations either...
....apart from all the scientific papers that state exactly that. :lol:

How the Brain Creates Out-of-Body Experiences
https://www.livescience.com/41128-out-o ... ained.html

Brain scans reveal what happens during an out-of-body experience
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z4nKK2LBNs

For the first time, scientists have created real out-of-body experiences in the lab
http://content.time.com/time/health/art ... 32,00.html

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:25 am

fake
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:33 am

gorgeous wrote:fake
What is your evidence that they are fake Gorgeous?

Everyone here assumes that you lie all the time........so prove us wrong. Show us how the scientists faked the experiments.
:lol:

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:12 am

gorgeous wrote:fake

Glad you finally admit it. What are you really, then?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:17 am

show me someone out of body...
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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:06 am

gorgeous wrote:show me someone out of body...
No Gorgeous you senile idiot. You are claiming souls leave the body. Science has proven this is just normal psychology and just an illusion. :D

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Confidencia » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:45 pm

gorgeous wrote:show me someone out of body...



Why do you even bother arguing with these peas in the pod? Beyond their cocoon of convention they are absolutely clueless.
One of the links dr textbook uploaded was not an experiment to prove or disprove OBEs, the scientists involved were merely trying to simulated it.

Here's the same article but with a different headline :

http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/7 ... s-are-REAL

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Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:54 pm

Confidencia wrote:Why do you (Gorgeous) even bother arguing with these peas in the pod?

Gorgeous doesn't argue anything. Gorgeous posts his spam he copies from other "woo" websites, because he is is an elderly conservative from Pasadena and says he "hates liberals and science". :lol:

Why don't you ask Gorgeous to join a "dualism" forum?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26362
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Why do NDEs apparently differ if we are all biologically similar?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:07 am

Confidencia wrote: One of the links dr textbook uploaded was not an experiment to prove or disprove OBEs, the scientists involved were merely trying to simulated it.
That was the experiment, Scientists can replicate the normal human hallucinations that people have experienced, thinking they had an OBE, for normal psychological reasons. They didn't replicate magical ghost spirits floating through walls because there is no evidence for that.

Didn't you work that out?
:lol:


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