Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

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Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:52 am

Just thought I would throw in a spoiler for those still believing in Ghosts. An article on Science Alert headlines:

A Physicist Explained Why The Large Hadron Collider Disproves The Existence of Ghosts


The full link is below and is an interesting read with several embedded links.

http://www.sciencealert.com/a-physicist ... -of-ghosts

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:01 am

I don't have to read it. The LHC does NOT disprove the existence of ghosts.

More humor?.............or just a very poor grounding in science?
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:54 am

Here bobbo, I'll post a few paragraphs for you to read:

...But we might have had proof that they don't exist all along, because as British theoretical physicist Brian Cox recently pointed out, there's no room in the Standard Model of Physics for a substance or medium that can carry on our information after death, and yet go undetected in the Large Hadron Collider....

...Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, who was also on the show, replied, "If I understand what you just declared, you just asserted that CERN, the European Centre for Nuclear Research, disproved the existence of ghosts."

"Yes," said Cox....

You could also listen to the episode here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b085tq49
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:51 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I don't have to read it. The LHC does NOT disprove the existence of ghosts.

More humor?.............or just a very poor grounding in science?


And I had no intention of giving you a thumbs up. I clicked the wrong icon.

You are bloody amazing Bobbo. You demand of others that they provide links to support what they put up. Yet here you are stating that you don't have to read it. How the hell do you know what has been put forth if you can't even take the time to read the link?

You are demonstrating arrogance at its best. It is starting to make me believe that no matter what anyone says, your first reaction is to put people down.

You just made a statement "The LHC does NOT disprove the existence of ghosts". But contrary to your demand of others on this forum, you do not provide any link to evidence that supports your apparent out of hand comment, apart from the fact that you can't even be bothered to read the article.

You really have lost me mate. Your response in this case just demonstrates your total lack of sincerity for much of what is posted on this forum.

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby salomed » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:00 am

But this assumption:

If we assume that the energy that sustains ghosts isn't an entirely new substance or medium, but carries on from when we were living, then this mysterious force controlling the particles that make up our cells would have been detected in the Large Hadron Collider by now.


Is assuming the consequent.

The article is also assuming the Standard Model is true, which from my limited but nonzero understanding, is not a given.

I am not a big believer in Ghosts, but if they are real why would they need to be nomologically embedded in this world and subject to this world's laws and fields?

Is the argument any different from: Ghosts are not real because there is no room for exoplasm in the chromatographic spectrum?
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:58 am

Does the LHC disprove Unicorns?

God????

Morality????????

Where I lost my car keys?????????????

................................It sounds like an article in The Onion.

C'mon guys. If thats a reputable link..........it only shows that once in awhile they get a hair up where the sun don't shine and they think its funny to play to the culture. Just as they have. If you went to the link............hmmm.... really bored??

Supernatural: standing outside the boundaries of Nature and requirements of cause and effect.

So..........yes.........Jim Steele has more credibility saying more ice in Greenland this year means AGW is a hoax than does the LHC says anything about supernatural anything. Ref: the comedy pyramid.
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Poodle » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:07 am

For once, I almost agree with you, salomed. However, everything we have discovered so far says that the Standard Model is a work in progress - correct in essence but incomplete. The Higgs Field and its associated boson (or bosons - there may be more than one) opens up further possibilities for extension of the Standard Model. So no - it isn't yet a completed work, but everything new we discover cements it more firmly in place. Not a given, but it's becoming a bit silly to try to give credence to a belief by hanging onto that rapidly disappearing straw.
Where you are really going wrong is to use "in this world and subject to this world's laws and fields" as a yardstick. It may be simply a figure of speech, but it implies a locality which should not be used in this universe and this universe's laws and fields. Put ghosts in another universe if you want to, but anything in this one is definitely subject to the same laws as everything else.

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby gorgeous » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:16 am

it really is ridiculous.......has it also disproved love, courage, aliens, other worlds? ----from the ^^op article----"So how does that apply to ghosts?

Because we can't touch and interact with them, ghosts can't be made of matter, but instead of energy. " Is a mind made of matter?...and how does he know he hasn't interacted with a ghost.?..,maybe he has and ignored it....people have interacted with ghosts and God....because he chooses to ignore their experiences means nothing....... ----------seth ----
"There are obviously as many kinds of ghosts and apparitions as there are people. They are as alert or as unalert to their situation as you are to your own. They are not fully focused in physical reality, however, either in personality or in form, and this is their main distinction. Some apparitions are thought-forms sent by survival personalities out of lingering deep anxiety. They portray the same compulsive-type behavior that can be seen in many instances in your ordinary experience.

The same mechanism that causes a disturbed woman, say, to perform repetitive action such as a constant washing and rewashing of hands, also causes a particular kind of apparition to return time and time again to one place. In such cases the behavior is often composed of repetitive action.

For various reasons, such a personality has not learned to assimilate its own experience. The characteristics of such apparitions follow those of a disturbed personality - with some exceptions, however. The whole consciousness is not present. The personality itself seems to be having a nightmare, or a series of recurring dreams, during which it returns to the physical environment. The personality itself is "safe and sound," but certain portions of it work out unresolved problems, and discharge energy in such a fashion.

They are in themselves quite harmless. Only your interpretation of their actions can cause difficulties.---------Your rooms are full now of thought forms that you do not perceive; and again, you are as much a ghostly phenomenon now as you will be after death. You are simply not aware of the fact. You ignore certain temperature variations and stirrings of air as imagination, that are instead indicative of such thought forms. You thrust into the background telepathic communications that often accompany such forms, and you turn aside from all clues that other realities exist quite validly with your own, and that in the midst of one existence you are surrounded by intangible but valid evidence."
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby salomed » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:16 am

Poodle wrote:Where you are really going wrong is to use "in this world and subject to this world's laws and fields" as a yardstick. It may be simply a figure of speech, but it implies a locality which should not be used in this universe and this universe's laws and fields. Put ghosts in another universe if you want to, but anything in this one is definitely subject to the same laws as everything else.


Where do you get this from? It could be that Ghosts are from outside this universe and are not subject to the laws of this universe in the same way that things in this universe are. So that when people see ghosts they are seeing something crossing over and having some etiological connection to this universe without being completely subject to this universe's laws and fields or timelines.

It seems reasonable that Ghosts are, by definition, not of this world.
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Poodle » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:17 am

It's a comedy program, bobbo. It's SUPPOSED to be funny. It also deals in science. Brain Cox explains in a light-hearted way why ghosts should't exist. Even the Rev. Richard Coles (probably a bit better known for the Communards) was having a chuckle.

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Poodle » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:23 am

salomed wrote:
Poodle wrote:Where you are really going wrong is to use "in this world and subject to this world's laws and fields" as a yardstick. It may be simply a figure of speech, but it implies a locality which should not be used in this universe and this universe's laws and fields. Put ghosts in another universe if you want to, but anything in this one is definitely subject to the same laws as everything else.


Where do you get this from? It could be that Ghosts are from outside this universe and are not subject to the laws of this universe in the same way that things in this universe are. So that when people see ghosts they are seeing something crossing over and having some etiological connection to this universe without being completely subject to this universe's laws and fields or timelines.

It seems reasonable that Ghosts are, by definition, not of this world.


I get it from physics, salomed. If you travelled to another universe (with different laws, different constants etc) you would cease to exist. You wouldn't die - you'd simply go away. You cannot exist outside of the 'reality/universe/physical system' which defines and controls your very being. That rule applies equally to rocks, plants, microbes, animals, planets, stars - everything which you could possibly touch, see, feel, smell or otherwise interact with. If ghosts existed, it would apply to them, too.

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby gorgeous » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:27 am

You wouldn't die - you'd simply go away------where is the evidence of this? .......we do exist on a non-physical level.......nde's and obe's prove it over and over....they are interacting with non-physical dimensions and beings everyday....
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby salomed » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:41 am

Poodle wrote:I get it from physics, salomed. If you travelled to another universe (with different laws, different constants etc) you would cease to exist. You wouldn't die - you'd simply go away.


What an Assumption! Where does it come from? We think that the laws of physics can change, for example in the first pico seconds or black holes.

You cannot exist outside of the 'reality/universe/physical system' which defines and controls your very being. That rule applies equally to rocks, plants, microbes, animals, planets, stars - everything which you could possibly touch, see, feel, smell or otherwise interact with. If ghosts existed, it would apply to them, too.


You just do not know this. It might be that two universes or this universe and its container universe are nomologically consistent but not for all phenomena nomologically compatible.

You talk about these deep and unknowable principles of cosmology like you talk about your favorite sandwich.
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:50 am

Phoenix76 wrote:And I had no intention of giving you a thumbs up. I clicked the wrong icon.

You can remove a thumbs up by clicking on the icon again (it should look like a thumbs down right now). That deletes it.
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby gorgeous » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:57 am

and what does 'you'd simply go away' even mean?.....go where? your body? your mind? ...where does away exist?
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Poodle » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:10 pm

salomed wrote:
Poodle wrote:I get it from physics, salomed. If you travelled to another universe (with different laws, different constants etc) you would cease to exist. You wouldn't die - you'd simply go away.


What an Assumption! Where does it come from? We think that the laws of physics can change, for example in the first pico seconds or black holes.

You cannot exist outside of the 'reality/universe/physical system' which defines and controls your very being. That rule applies equally to rocks, plants, microbes, animals, planets, stars - everything which you could possibly touch, see, feel, smell or otherwise interact with. If ghosts existed, it would apply to them, too.


You just do not know this. It might be that two universes or this universe and its container universe are nomologically consistent but not for all phenomena nomologically compatible.

You talk about these deep and unknowable principles of cosmology like you talk about your favorite sandwich.

And you treat physics as though it was a moveable feast. I know it because it complies with the laws of physics. I trust that you understand the difference between a scientific law and jurisprudence. In case you hadn't noticed, we are way past the first picoseconds of this universe. Our universal constants are pretty well established and stable by now (yes - I just checked. There they are). I have made zero assumptions. You simply fail to understand what I'm saying. Do a bit of homework on facts instead of woo - find out why universal constants are called universal constants, and find out what would happen if they changed. Nomological doesn't cut the mustard. Try science instead of philosophy.
I DO know this - it's you who constantly refuses to accept a body of knowledge which has been painstakingly developed over centuries. Argue all you like, but you're no Newton or Einstein. Nor am I, but for that very reason I'm not about to run around claiming idiocy as the new enlightenment - it would be too easy to make a fool of myself. Although I reckon I could make a bit of pocket money writing NABFoTS. There are suckers round every corner.

NABFoTS ... New Age Books for the Terminally Stupid.

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:54 pm

We need to work on the acronym. Should end in "bots" or bot to catch the mechanical mindlessness of it all.

I'm not that much interested............ but..........to start your ball: WOBOT......Woo On Breach Of Thinking? . I do like wobot...but it doesn't ring as does NABFtTS?
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Monster » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:30 pm

I don't think the existence of ghosts can actually be disproven. They have to be defined first and I have seen no definition for them that contains anything that's measurable.

The lack of evidence for the existence of ghosts is sufficient for me.
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Flash » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:20 pm

Exactly Monster. How does one prove the nonexistence of things; the Earth's second moon, god, 21 angels on a tip of a pin, flat Earth, souls, etc.?

The burden of proof falls on those who assert that such things exist and if they can't because the evidence is just not there that's enough to come to the conclusion that what doesn't exist, doesn't exist. :good:
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby gorgeous » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:28 pm

nonsense....because there is no evidence to show means nothing...non-physical evidence is there when you look for it ..
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:35 pm

:rotfl:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby gorgeous » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:19 am

seth---------------------You are like children with a game, and you think that the game is played by everyone. Physical life is not the rule. Identity and consciousness existed long before your earth was formed. You suppose that any personality must appear in physical terms. Consciousness is the force behind matter, and it forms many other realities besides the physical one. It is, again, your own viewpoint that is presently so limited that it seems to you that physical reality is the rule and mode of existence.

The source and power of your present consciousness has never been physical, and where I am, many are not even aware that such a physical system exists.

The physical system is an illusion, but you must accept it and from your viewpoint try to understand the realities that exist beyond it.

You cannot objectify the inner portions of your own identity, and therefore you do not perceive them. So much of your energy is used in the physical productions that you cannot afford to perceive any reality but your own.

Like children playing with blocks, you focus your attention on the physical blocks. The physical blocks appear very real to you when you dwell within their perspective. Other shapes and forms that you could perceive, you do not. Even in explaining other realities, I must use the words "shapes" and "forms" or you would not understand me.

Your idea of progress is building larger blocks, and yet one day you will put aside your "children's toys."
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby gorgeous » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:23 am

where I am, many are not even aware that such a physical system exists.-------it's true..ob travelers have met beings who have no idea a physical planet exists with humans in physical bodies...they think it is crazy to believe such nonsense...
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Seth and Gorgeous

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:37 am

gorgeous wrote:seth---------------------You are like children with a game, and you think that the game is played by everyone.


Just for the record. "Seth" is a channelled alien god by the psychic, Jane Roberts. "Seth" started in 1963, and the Seth cult reached its peak in 1972. Jane Roberts died in 1984 and the cult ended.

So if Gorgeous was a 25 year old in 1970 and a Seth follower at the cult's peak, and that was forty seven years ago. that indicates Gorgeous is about 65-70 years old. That is the roughly same age as Barry, the other Seth follower who joined out forum. :D

Jane Roberts Channels Seth in 1974. ("Barry" is sitting on the left with curly hair)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J9CyIOlMys

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Re: Seth and Gorgeous

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:40 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Just for the record. "Seth" is a channelled alien god by the psychic, Jane Roberts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J9CyIOlMys

I think Jane was channeling Super Mario. “It’s-a me…Mario!” She’s got the accent, and what she says is all about the various games in Super Mario World.
You are like children with a game, and you think that the game is played by everyone.
In SM2, you can choose from four player characters, so the game is played by everyone...in different ways.
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Physical life is not the rule...
Because ghosts.
Image
The source and power of your present consciousness has never been physical, and where I am, many are not even aware that such a physical system exists.
Mario's "powers" aren't physical; they're imaginary.
Image
The physical system is an illusion, but you must accept it and from your viewpoint try to understand the realities that exist beyond it.
We all know the realities that exist behind Mario's endless quests.
Image
Like children playing with blocks, you focus your attention on the physical blocks. The physical blocks appear very real to you when you dwell within their perspective.
Naturally...
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Your idea of progress is building larger blocks, and yet one day you will put aside your "children's toys."
And move on to adult's toys. No, not those, ya pervs...these...
Image
Thank you! Thank you...I'll be here all week. Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:08 am

:rotfl:
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Seth and Gorgeous

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:09 am

Nikki Nyx wrote: I think Jane was channeling Super Mario.
That's possible. Super Mario Bros is from 1981. Jane Roberts died from alcoholism in 1984. This is why Seth the channelled spirit has "no knowledge" about anything after the late 1970's or any technology or world event after the late 1970's.

Indeed, Gorgeous doesn't mentioned that Seth the Channelled spirit, specifically said the continents would rise from Earth's oceans in 2000AD. .........seventeen years ago....... :lol:

Jane Roberts Channelling Session : Dec 2 - 1964
Interviewer : How many times have the continents on earth risen and fallen?
Jane Roberts speaking in Seth Voice: Endless.
Interviewer : When will the next period of such activity begin?
Jane Roberts speaking in Seth Voice: The year 2,000.

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Re: Seth and Gorgeous

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Indeed, Gorgeous doesn't mentioned that Seth the Channelled spirit, specifically said the continents would rise from Earth's oceans in 2000AD. .........seventeen years ago....... :lol:

Jane Roberts Channelling Session : Dec 2 - 1964
Interviewer : How many times have the continents on earth risen and fallen?
Jane Roberts speaking in Seth Voice: Endless.
Interviewer : When will the next period of such activity begin?
Jane Roberts speaking in Seth Voice: The year 2,000.

*looks around* Nope. No Atlantis. :mrgreen:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:21 am

Gord wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:And I had no intention of giving you a thumbs up. I clicked the wrong icon.

You can remove a thumbs up by clicking on the icon again (it should look like a thumbs down right now). That deletes it.

Thanks, Gord for the post (total 2):
Austin Harper • Matthew Ellard

Rating: 16.7%

:glare: ...okay, partial marks.
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Re: Seth and Gorgeous

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:26 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote: I think Jane was channeling Super Mario.
That's possible. Super Mario Bros is from 1981. Jane Roberts died from alcoholism in 1984. This is why Seth the channelled spirit has "no knowledge" about anything after the late 1970's or any technology or world event after the late 1970's.

Indeed, Gorgeous doesn't mentioned that Seth the Channelled spirit, specifically said the continents would rise from Earth's oceans in 2000AD. .........seventeen years ago....... :lol:

Jane Roberts Channelling Session : Dec 2 - 1964
Interviewer : How many times have the continents on earth risen and fallen?
Jane Roberts speaking in Seth Voice: Endless.
Interviewer : When will the next period of such activity begin?
Jane Roberts speaking in Seth Voice: The year 2,000.

What does that even mean, the continents will rise from the oceans? Will India orbit the Earth? Will North America fly off to Mars? ...Again?
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Poodle » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:06 am

You got it wrong, Matthew ...

"Jane Roberts Channelling Session : Dec 2 - 1964
Interviewer : How many times have the continents on earth risen and fallen?
Jane Roberts speaking in Seth Voice: Endless.
Interviewer : When will the next period of such activity begin?
Jane Roberts speaking in Seth Voice: The year 2,000."

It doesn't mean the continents will rise in 2000 - it means they'll sink in 2000. Score one for Seth ... ... .... oh!. Wait a minute .... ermmmm .... as you were.

NB Important note for Gorgeous ... This is a joke. A joke is a humorous comment, not meant to be taken as a statement of fact.

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:03 pm

Hope springs eternal... you really expect georgie to read past the "Gorgeous", Poodle? :-P
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Poodle » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:21 pm

I'm still gobsmacked that she's here at all, never mind doing any actual reading.

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:42 pm

The krap smeared here is probably picked up on wootube. As are the half-assed links it posts.
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby gorgeous » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:51 pm

seth--------The combination of thought, emotion, and desire creates form, possesses energy and is made of energy. It will show itself in as many ways as possible. You only recognize the physical materializations, but as mentioned earlier, you send pseudoforms of yourself out from yourself of which you are not aware , and this is completely aside from astral travel or projection, which is a much more complicated affair. You appear in astral form in realities that are comparatively more advanced than your own. You are usually recognized because of your disorientation. You do not know how to manipulate. You do not know the customs. But whether you have a physical form or not , if you have emotions or feelings, these will take form. They have a reality. If you think strongly of an object, somewhere it will appear. -----------If you think strongly of being in another location a pseudoimage of yourself will be projected out from you to that place whether or not it is perceived and whether or not you yourself is conscious of it or conscious in it. This applies both to those who have left your physical system and to those who are in it. -------------Some dead friends and relative do visit you , projecting from their own level of reality into yours , but you cannot as a rule perceive their forms. They are not more ghostly or 'dead' however, than you are when you project into their reality----as you do in the sleep state.
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:52 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:The krap smeared here is probably picked up on wootube. As are the half-assed links it posts.
Sheesh, don't give them any ideas. The Internet is tainted enough with their inanity.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:51 am

gorgeous wrote:seth-------The combination of thought, emotion, and desire creates form, possesses energy and is made of energy. It will show itself in as many ways as possible. You only recognize the physical materializations, but as mentioned earlier, you send pseudoforms of yourself out from yourself of which you are not aware , and this is completely aside from astral travel or projection, which is a much more complicated affair. You appear in astral form in realities that are comparatively more advanced than your own. You are usually recognized because of your disorientation. You do not know how to manipulate. You do not know the customs. But whether you have a physical form or not , if you have emotions or feelings, these will take form. They have a reality. If you think strongly of an object, somewhere it will appear. -----------If you think strongly of being in another location a pseudoimage of yourself will be projected out from you to that place whether or not it is perceived and whether or not you yourself is conscious of it or conscious in it. This applies both to those who have left your physical system and to those who are in it. -------------Some dead friends and relative do visit you , projecting from their own level of reality into yours , but you cannot as a rule perceive their forms. They are not more ghostly or 'dead' however, than you are when you project into their reality----as you do in the sleep state.


Gorgeous. This is ancient bull-shit is from 1971. Don't you have any bull-shit from our current century? :D

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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:47 am

Brian Cox recently pointed out, there's no room in the Standard Model of Physics for a substance or medium that can carry on our information after death, and yet go undetected in the Large Hadron Collider.


Last time I checked, there was no room for a Luminiferous Aether in the Standard Model either. And yet there is light literally everywhere you look.


"If we want some sort of pattern that carries information about our living cells to persist, then we must specify precisely what medium carries that pattern, and how it interacts with the matter particles out of which our bodies are made,"


There are three problems with this statement. Firstly, it doesn’t clearly set out a hypothesis about the nature of ghosts. Secondly, it doesn’t acknowledge the fact that disproving one particular hypothesis about the nature of ghosts does not equate to disproving all other hypotheses about their nature. Thirdly, it conflates what is with what we know.

"We must, in other words, invent an extension to the Standard Model of Particle Physics that has escaped detection at the Large Hadron Collider. That's almost inconceivable at the energy scales typical of the particle interactions in our bodies."


Considering the history of the Standard Model and modern physics more generally, I don’t see why they would be reluctant to “invent an extension” to it! Oh wait a minute, yes I do: the materialistic paradigm is deeply ingrained in the mindset of modern mainstream physicists, and the various implications of undermining this paradigm are too uncomfortable to deal with.

It's become glaringly obvious that the Standard Model of Physics is an incomplete theory, with several gaping holes that physicists have been trying to patch up for decades,


Truest statement in the entire article!

but Cox says the existence of ghosts doesn't fall within the 'known unknowns' of the Standard Model.


And what about the unknown unknowns?

Instead, he says it directly contradicts one of the most rigorously tested and fundamental laws of the Universe we have - the second law of thermodynamics.


So after effectively admitting that using the Standard Model to disprove the existence of ghosts is a non-starter, the article surreptitiously jumps to talking about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system always increases over time.
Entropy is a measure of the randomness or disorder within a closed or isolated system, and the second law of thermodynamics states that as usable energy is lost, chaos increases - and without extra energy being put into a system, that progression towards disorder can never be reversed.


Since when do we know that the universe is a closed system?

In other words, energy is always lost to heat in any system - whether it's a washing machine or the Universe - and you can never get back all the energy you put in.


At least, not within the empirical scopes and timeframes that physicists typically work with….

So how does that apply to ghosts? Because we can't touch and interact with them, ghosts can't be made of matter, but instead of energy.


This claim, while superficially plausible, overlooks the fact that physics is yet to provide adequate definitions for either “matter” or “energy”. The only thing we can say with any certainty about ghosts is that they can only exist if they are comprised of some kind of information process.

And if energy is necessarily lost within every system - particularly if they're doing anything that requires using more of it, such as moving, emitting light, or making spooky sounds - it would be impossible for them to maintain their existence for any significant period of time.


In other words, it may be possible for them to maintain their existence for an “insignificant” period of time. Aside from that, occult traditions generally agree that ghosts do actually use energy sources.

The second nail in the coffin comes from the Large Hadron Collider, because while there are things about the Universe we still can't find using this giant particle accelerator, what we can see very well is the way energy drives our cells' information.


Really?? When did the Large Hadron Collider become a major center of biological research?


If we assume that the energy that sustains ghosts isn't an entirely new substance or medium, but carries on from when we were living, then this mysterious force controlling the particles that make up our cells would have been detected in the Large Hadron Collider by now.


Or maybe it already has and they just don’t realize it yet. Or maybe there is something fundamentally flawed about trying to understand the building blocks of the universe in a manner analogous to trying to understand the anatomy of a chicken by blowing it up with dynamite and analyzing the resultant patterns of gore splatter. Or maybe it’s not controlling the particles in cells so much as being produced by or manifested through them.


The best reasons to not believe in ghosts are the lack of testable hypotheses about their nature and the lack of compelling evidence for their existence. Claiming that the Standard Model and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics disprove the existence of ghosts is both problematic and unnecessary.
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:56 am

:hmm: Have you missed this?
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Re: Disproving the Existence of Ghosts

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:08 am

scrmbldggs wrote::hmm: Have you missed this?


There is nothing in the OP or the article itself which suggests that the arguments put forward are meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
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