Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Phoenix76 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:05 am

Sayer Said

My argument was that, having had the experience of being born and being conscious once, and having previously not been conscious, AND as was added, being composed of the same energy as everything else, why can this 'being born' experience not occur again?

I still haven't really seen a satisfactory or clear answer.


Sayer, you will not see a satisfactory or clear answer. Nobody knows what was before their birth, and nobody knows what is after their death. Ergo, nobody can answer except with theories and suppositions like you have put forth.

And Sayer, it is not for others to disprove what you are espousing, it is up to you to prove causation for your espousal. Skepticism is not about disproving theories, it is about reviewing and looking for evidence/proof that a theory is true. And that might be something we can touch or see, or it could be through a double blind study that proof will come. Without the proof, a theory is just that, a theory. And each of us can accept (most doubtful) or reject (most likely).

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:32 am

Poodle wrote:I don't have a sandwich, so I make a sandwich, and that proves that reincarnation is a fact? I think you may be one sandwich short of a picnic.


I just ate half a sandwich - which my wife made. I`ll eat the other half for dinner. So does the uneaten half bring us closer to a picnic, or did the eaten half do so before it was eaten? And more importantly, does this prove sandwich reincarnation? (My wife wants to know since she doesn’t want to keep sandwiches in bardo.) Me? I just want to eat the other half.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:37 am

TJrandom wrote: I just ate half a sandwich - which my wife made. I`ll eat the other half for dinner. .
Wow! You Japanese people really know how to party! :D

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:43 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
TJrandom wrote: I just ate half a sandwich - which my wife made. I`ll eat the other half for dinner. .
Wow! You Japanese people really know how to party! :D


It replaces the steamed white rice they bring to me as gruel. The gruel gets flushed down the toilet in my cell. They check to confirm that I have eaten, and are none the wiser.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:46 am

gorgeous wrote:seth--------You will reincarnate whether or not you believe that you will....
Seth, the fictional alien, didn't reincarnate in any of the Seth stories. Did you forget again?

Come to think about it.....neither did Jane Roberts who wrote the Seth stories.
:lol:

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:21 am

Okay okay allow me to re iterate in a manner which responds to the criticisms of the idea.

The main criticism offered is this:
You cannot be born again because there is no 'you' TO be reborn after you have died. You are simply a product of this current incarnation of organised matter and once it is gone, it won't occur again; therefore you cannot occur again.

Just to make it explicitly clear: I want talking about being the SAME PERSON again; I know that's basically statistically impossible.
I was talking about being born as someone else.

Now before I was born as Sayer, the matter and energy which I am composed of were scattered and as such, there was no conscious experience and there was no self. Presumably, there was simply nothing.

Once I die, there will be no conscious experience and no self. Just like the period of time prior to my birth.

Now you HAVE TO agree with that unless you want to present the idea of an afterlife.

The fact that there's 'no evidence' for either and that they're 'just assumptions' is not true. IM ONLY MAKING ONE ASSUMPTION : THAT THE BRAIN PRODUCES CONSCIOUSNESS.

If ou agree with that, then you ALSO agree that pre birth and post death are the same.

Now the argument has been put forward that this is a semantic error and that pre birth isn't actually a state that one exists in, because there's NOBODY to exist in the state.

But that is not true. If I am experiencing and conscious now, there MUST be a state other than that.... again, unless you want to argue an afterlife. There must be unconsciousness as opposed to consciousness, otherwise you're ALWAYS CONSCIOUS and that suggests an afterlife.

So unless you want an afterlife, you must agree that pre birth and post death are identical states of non-consciousness. Clear?

That suggests, quite strongly, that it is possible for you to be born as a different person and to live the life of a different person. For example:

I am born as a girl from Ohio one hundred years from now. I go online and I read this exact thread. I see this guy who is long dead called 'Sayer'. He's long gone, so he wasn't really me. He was someone else. I am having a conscious experience of myself as the girl right now. Sayer was a different person so I cannot meaningfully talk about a continuity between his death and my birth.

That being said, after Sayers death, in the same existential space, my consciousness appeared. Now you might say " you have no evidence for this", but I do have absolute evidence - the fact that I'm alive and experiencing right now. That in itself suggests that even after being 'everything', being non-conscious and non-subjective, simply being All, I have emerged into a conscious and subjective experience.

I know I can do this, I have now successfully done it once.

Should I die and return to being Everything, a non-conscious, non-specific existence, I AM CONFIDENT THAT I CAN DO THIS BIRTH THING AGAIN.

And that's the idea.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gord » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:27 am

sayer wrote:
Gord wrote:
sayer wrote:
Gord wrote:
sayer wrote:The brain you possess now is a new one, but this experience it has produced of 'you' came out of a state of non-existence.

I just made a sandwich. Did it come out of a state of non-existence? I have to ask, because I'm pretty sure it didn't but I'm not sure how you'll interpret it.

Did the sandwich exist before you made it? No. So yes it went from non existence to existence.

Unless you go down the road of 'it always existed' as in simultaneous time, which can be scientifically argued for, but I was speaking about it in a linear sense. First it didn't exist, then it did.

However seeing that the sandwich is not conscious I'm not sure that's a very apt analogy.

The sandwich didn't exist, but the individual elements did. It's only a sandwich because the concept of "sandwich" is applied to it by us. So in the sense of not having to name everything, yes, the sandwich existed before I made it. However, in the sense of having to name everything, no, the sandwich did not exist before I made it.

The same can be said for anything else. All the components of "you" existed before what we name "you" existed, therefore "you" existed as an unnamed thing not yet formed until "you" were reshaped and came to be the "you" that is so named.

And how do you know the sandwich isn't conscious? It looked like a very smart sandwich before I ate it!

And now that it's been eaten, the sandwich still exists, just not in its named form.


Thank you Lance for the support but I wasn't presenting the idea of a doppelgänger.

The response argument here is -
1. you're made out of components that always existed
2. Therefore you can only be born once

I can't see the logical progression from 1 to 2.

I agree, your argument is illogical. My argument was that all our arguments are flawed from the start because we haven't defined what it means to be something, either "you" or "a sandwich" or even what it means to "exist".

My argument was that, having had the experience of being born and being conscious once, and having previously not been conscious, AND as was added, being composed of the same energy as everything else, why can this 'being born' experience not occur again?

I still haven't really seen a satisfactory or clear answer.

Once I've eaten my sandwich, which didn't exist until I made it and yet did exist before that and exists afterwards as well, it no longer exists although it does still exist. I can't reconstruct it any more than I can unburn a match, which both exists and does not exist before it exists.

"You're made out of components that already existed" doesn't really refute it, because it just plays with the semantics but doesn't change the facts of consciousness and unconsciousness.

I'm arguing that the semantics just aren't there to begin with. It's impossible to argue these things without having them properly defined first.

Pre birth unconsciousness.... gave way to during life consciousness.... which ends in post death unconsciousness.

Post death and pre birth are identical.

No they are not. They share some qualities, but not all.

Therefore why can the experience of living not occur more than once.

Please, a clear answer.

A clear answer is impossible until we define the terms. And I don't know how to do that.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:25 pm

Definitions of terms:

Pre-birth : a state in which the potential for you exists, but there is nothing except All and non-subjective, non-localised unconsciousness. That's difficult to wrap your head around but it's a coherent idea - I can trust that people know what I mean by it. If you want to put it simply, there's just 'nothing'.

You : an existential state, either conscious and subjectively oriented as an individual, or unconscious and being Everything

Post-death : the state that you exist in after the physical brain has stopped functioning. We cannot know, but we can assume that this is also a state of oblivion, unconsciousness, and existence as Everything rather than Something. For all intents and purposes this is identical to the state a person is in before being born (though they are not really a person yet, we just have to speak about it in this way because of the structure of our language)

Evidence : the idea that you have been born, and you therefore know that it is possible to go from a state of unconscious Everything non-localised non-personal oblivion, to a state of localised, individual, subjective consciousness.

Eternal Oblivion: The idea that once your consciousness has been extinguished and you return to being Everything rather than Something, you will never again have the experience of being born.... even though that's exactly what happened the first time around.

Semantic error criticism: the idea that this understanding is an illusion produced by semantic tricks. This is not the case because, unless you want to argue for an afterlife, it MUST be true that there is nothingness before and after death. The concepts are simple enough that they cannot be misinterpreted or tricky, it is simply unconscious/ conscious, two states which we KNOW occur and which we KNOW happen during and after life.

'You're a composition' criticism - the idea that we can't meaningfully talk about you being in a pre birth state or post death state, because there is no 'you' in either of them.... just like saying that a sandwhich did not exist before I made it is confusing, because it DID exist it just wasn't in that format.
An invalid criticism because it points out the limits of our language, but DOESNT CHANGE the realities of being conscious or unconscious..... which exist whether they are represented with language or not.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:43 pm

Pre-birth... the state where two separately contributed DNA halves have not yet merged - all the way thru zygote development up to and including the moment immediately before a living entity is separated from its host environment to become a new living being.

For clarity, pre-birth requires that prior living entities exist and contribute to the creation of the new entity.

Post-death… the state where a previously alive entity has stopped all biological processes (and thus begins to decompose).

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:16 pm

For goodness sake, let's stop introducing unnecessary entities. You have implied several times, sayer, that there is some form of non-conscious pre-extant state from which a fertilised ovum gradually emerges, transformed magically into a self-aware being. Establish that as a fact, or let's simply call it non-existence. There is nothing special about non-existence. The non- bit gives you a clue.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:25 pm

Poodle wrote:For goodness sake, let's stop introducing unnecessary entities. You have implied several times, sayer, that there is some form of non-conscious pre-extant state from which a fertilised ovum gradually emerges, transformed magically into a self-aware being. Establish that as a fact, or let's simply call it non-existence. There is nothing special about non-existence. The non- bit gives you a clue.


I haven't made any magical claims.

Once again, the only assumption I've made is that before our birth there was no consciousness. That's it.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:10 pm

sayer wrote:
Just to make it explicitly clear: I want talking about being the SAME PERSON again; I know that's basically statistically impossible.
I was talking about being born as someone else.


So you're talking about a future existence in which you are not you. Am I correct? If so, how is this anything other than flat-out illogical?

That suggests, quite strongly, that it is possible for you to be born as a different person and to live the life of a different person. For example:

I am born as a girl from Ohio one hundred years from now. I go online and I read this exact thread. I see this guy who is long dead called 'Sayer'. He's long gone, so he wasn't really me. He was someone else. I am having a conscious experience of myself as the girl right now. Sayer was a different person so I cannot meaningfully talk about a continuity between his death and my birth.

That being said, after Sayers death, in the same existential space, my consciousness appeared.


What the heck is an "existential space"?!

Now you might say " you have no evidence for this", but I do have absolute evidence - the fact that I'm alive and experiencing right now.


No you don't, because you haven't even defined this "existential space" that you and the hypothetical girl from the future share, let alone provided evidence that you do in fact share it.

That in itself suggests that even after being 'everything', being non-conscious and non-subjective, simply being All, I have emerged into a conscious and subjective experience.

I know I can do this, I have now successfully done it once.


"You" didn't do it, the universe did. And you have not provided any reason as to why it could or would be inclined to give rise to "you" in some future life.

Should I die and return to being Everything, a non-conscious, non-specific existence, I AM CONFIDENT THAT I CAN DO THIS BIRTH THING AGAIN.


The universe can do it again, but not you. To say otherwise makes no more sense than crediting a fictional storybook character with its own creation.

'You're a composition' criticism - the idea that we can't meaningfully talk about you being in a pre birth state or post death state, because there is no 'you' in either of them.... just like saying that a sandwhich did not exist before I made it is confusing, because it DID exist it just wasn't in that format.


The sandwich did not exist, because the sandwich IS a format by definition! All you can say is that the potential for a sandwich existed before it was made.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:41 pm

I don't think anyone even understands what I'm intending to say lol.

It became way over complicated.

At one point I wasn't conscious, now I'm conscious, and at another point I won't be conscious again.

At he previous point when I wasn't conscious, I became conscious.

So at a later point when I'm not conscious, I presume it's possible to do this birth and lifetime thing again.

That makes complete sense to me.

The more one tries to analyse it the more paradoxical it becomes, but otherwise, if you don't stuff it full of other philosophical concepts, which make it harder and harder to get your head around (and this is because you can't comprehend non existence), the basic logic feels pretty solid.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:50 pm

sayer wrote:I don't think anyone even understands what I'm intending to say lol.

It became way over complicated.

At one point I wasn't conscious, now I'm conscious, and at another point I won't be conscious again.

At he previous point when I wasn't conscious, I became conscious.

So at a later point when I'm not conscious, I presume it's possible to do this birth and lifetime thing again.


[/quote]

There are only 2 possibilities: 1) Consciousness is an emergent property of a brain 2) consciousness has separate existence from a brain

In the former case, when the brain dies, the consciousness dies with it. It cannot arise again unless the same brain lives again.

Only in the second case can the consciousness arise in a different brain.

The birth and lifetime thing to happen again demands option 2 for the consciousness to be the same consciousness.

Just because you claim you are not assuming option 2 does not mean you are not assuming option 2.


Gord makes a good point re defining existence - does consciousness exist, or is it an illusion of existence?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:05 pm

sayer wrote:I am born as a girl from Ohio one hundred years from now. I go online and I read this exact thread. I see this guy who is long dead called 'Sayer'. He's long gone, so he wasn't really me. He was someone else. I am having a conscious experience of myself as the girl right now. Sayer was a different person so I cannot meaningfully talk about a continuity between his death and my birth.
If you're presuming no continuity of ego, then who the {!#%@} cares whether or not they're reincarnated in the sense you're arguing?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:07 pm

LunaNik wrote:
sayer wrote:I am born as a girl from Ohio one hundred years from now. I go online and I read this exact thread. I see this guy who is long dead called 'Sayer'. He's long gone, so he wasn't really me. He was someone else. I am having a conscious experience of myself as the girl right now. Sayer was a different person so I cannot meaningfully talk about a continuity between his death and my birth.
If you're presuming no continuity of ego, then who the {!#%@} cares whether or not they're reincarnated in the sense you're arguing?



It's less about whether you care and more about whether this is the case or not. If it is the case then it has quite big implications.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:16 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
sayer wrote:I don't think anyone even understands what I'm intending to say lol.

It became way over complicated.

At one point I wasn't conscious, now I'm conscious, and at another point I won't be conscious again.

At he previous point when I wasn't conscious, I became conscious.

So at a later point when I'm not conscious, I presume it's possible to do this birth and lifetime thing again.




There are only 2 possibilities: 1) Consciousness is an emergent property of a brain 2) consciousness has separate existence from a brain

In the former case, when the brain dies, the consciousness dies with it. It cannot arise again unless the same brain lives again.

Only in the second case can the consciousness arise in a different brain.

The birth and lifetime thing to happen again demands option 2 for the consciousness to be the same consciousness.

Just because you claim you are not assuming option 2 does not mean you are not assuming option 2.


Gord makes a good point re defining existence - does consciousness exist, or is it an illusion of existence?[/quote]


Wrong, in case 1 there is also a form of continuity.

I presume you're a fan of Sam Harris? He's one of the most hardcore sceptical atheist-rationalists on this planet so I would presume so.

In any case, Harris wrote a pretty amazing book called 'Waking Up' which is about spirituality without religion, basically spirituality for atheists and sceptics.

In the book he hints at something significant to what I was talking about earlier. Basically, since your sense of self is the epiphenomena of neurons anyway, you are not really the body or the brain or the mind. What you think of as 'you' is a temporary, artificially imposed conceptual boundary. In reality there is no such boundary. Your actual existential nature is as Everything.

You are, in short, Everything experiencing itself as one thing.

Now if you assume that when you are not in a state of subjective consciousness, you simply exist as Everything, THERE IS NO NEED FOR A SUPERNATURAL CONTINUATION OF THE SELF.

The self is at best a temporary illusion anyway!

What persists?? EVERYTHING persists because you are actually everything.

Therefore when your term as this subjective consciousness ends, you will return to being Everything.

What I was hinting at is that if you, Everythif, can temporarily assume the guise of an ego-self, Something, once.... and we know that you've done this because you were born... why is it only once?

If your currently in the period of being Something rather than everything then you are locked into that incarnation.

When you go back into being Everything, why can you not incarnate again? Someone else will be born and have an experience, and it will be in a sense 'you' having that conscious experience.

That can't happen to you out of the subjective temporary self state, but it can (and does, as you are right now experiencing) happen to you after being Everything, I.e following your death.

I hope that is easy to understand

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:53 pm

sayer wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
sayer wrote:I am born as a girl from Ohio one hundred years from now. I go online and I read this exact thread. I see this guy who is long dead called 'Sayer'. He's long gone, so he wasn't really me. He was someone else. I am having a conscious experience of myself as the girl right now. Sayer was a different person so I cannot meaningfully talk about a continuity between his death and my birth.
If you're presuming no continuity of ego, then who the {!#%@} cares whether or not they're reincarnated in the sense you're arguing?
It's less about whether you care and more about whether this is the case or not. If it is the case then it has quite big implications.
You missed the point. If there's no continuity of experience, then it doesn't matter whether the new person is "me" or "not me." The experience, memories, and personality of the previous lifetime would be gone. The new person might as well be "not me" for all intents and purposes. So why would the current "me" care either way? In your scenario, nothing about who I am right now will survive. Honestly, you haven't logically explained how the new person is, in fact, "me" in any way, shape, or form.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:00 pm

LunaNik wrote:
sayer wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
sayer wrote:I am born as a girl from Ohio one hundred years from now. I go online and I read this exact thread. I see this guy who is long dead called 'Sayer'. He's long gone, so he wasn't really me. He was someone else. I am having a conscious experience of myself as the girl right now. Sayer was a different person so I cannot meaningfully talk about a continuity between his death and my birth.
If you're presuming no continuity of ego, then who the {!#%@} cares whether or not they're reincarnated in the sense you're arguing?
It's less about whether you care and more about whether this is the case or not. If it is the case then it has quite big implications.
You missed the point. If there's no continuity of experience, then it doesn't matter whether the new person is "me" or "not me." The experience, memories, and personality of the previous lifetime would be gone. The new person might as well be "not me" for all intents and purposes. So why would the current "me" care either way? In your scenario, nothing about who I am right now will survive. Honestly, you haven't logically explained how the new person is, in fact, "me" in any way, shape, or form.



It isn't you at all in the egoic sense because the ego is a temporary shell.

It's you in the existential sense.

In other words you insofar as you are you now (which is only on a superficial level, the body, the mind and the personality are temporary accumulations).

What is that base existential nature which is you whether you're incarnate in a body or existing as Everything?

That's a big spiritual question, discovering it is I believe called Enlightenment. Read Waking Up by Sam Harris.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:03 pm

There is no such thing as "an existential you."

Silly.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:19 pm

sayer wrote:It's you in the existential sense.
No, it's not. In Existentialism, existence is consciousness. According to you, I possessed neither existence nor essence while in the celestial waiting room of Eternal Oblivion. Yet, somehow, when I'm reborn into a new person, this new existence (consciousness) will be "me," even though the essence will not be. Hogwash.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:25 pm

It's definitely all a bit Peter Pannish.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:31 pm

Ha, ha............I was thinking to google "Peter Pannish" for some deeper insight, but I am lazy and will assume you mean "In the nature of Peter Pan."? I don't think Pan ever thought about such things...........but it saves time.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:43 pm

LunaNik wrote:
sayer wrote:It's you in the existential sense.
No, it's not. In Existentialism, existence is consciousness. According to you, I possessed neither existence nor essence while in the celestial waiting room of Eternal Oblivion. Yet, somehow, when I'm reborn into a new person, this new existence (consciousness) will be "me," even though the essence will not be. Hogwash.


Skip the buzzwords.

Rather than referring to Oblivion as a 'waiting room' it is indeed a period of Oblivion. So in your experience, if we are to consider that this hypothesis might be true, you would go from dying to being born straight away.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:45 pm

How many angels dance in this Oblivion?

Can you list all the rules?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:46 pm

Does no one here appreciate the idea that the ego is the illusory product of your neurology, therefore who you actually are in an existential sense is Everything - any boundaries that you draw are merely conceptual and illusory.

"There's no such thing a an existential you"

Not even after sceptic messiah Sam Harris has spoken on the topic??

Also pleeease leave it out with the "hogwash" and the "peter pan", it makes you all seem so dismissive and closed minded. Come on fellas

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:48 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:How many angels dance in this Oblivion?

Can you list all the rules?



What? You just ignored the fact that I explained it's Oblivion so you don't experience anything at all.

Why would there be angels??

You're referring to Oblivion as if it's a woo woo concept when it's your exact belief system! *facepalm*

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:52 pm

Exactly so sayer. YOU seem to know all about this Oblivion. How can it be a "period" if one goes from dead to second life without a pause evidently in the period of Oblivion..... or does it depend on how fast you are moving?

Oblivion: my wordweb fails on this advanced concept.

Its nice to use words without definition. All kinds of snarky BS can be stated.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:38 pm

sayer wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
sayer wrote:It's you in the existential sense.
No, it's not. In Existentialism, existence is consciousness. According to you, I possessed neither existence nor essence while in the celestial waiting room of Eternal Oblivion. Yet, somehow, when I'm reborn into a new person, this new existence (consciousness) will be "me," even though the essence will not be. Hogwash.
Skip the buzzwords.
Buzzwords? I responded using the word you used.
sayer wrote:Rather than referring to Oblivion as a 'waiting room' it is indeed a period of Oblivion.
So now it's not Eternal Oblivion, but a period of Oblivion? I was wondering when that would happen.
sayer wrote:So in your experience, if we are to consider that this hypothesis might be true, you would go from dying to being born straight away.
That wouldn't be "my" experience, since you've stipulated that "I" wouldn't survive the dying process, and wouldn't possess either existence or essence in Oblivion. You must have existence (consciousness) to have essence (experience).

What exactly would separate "me" from "you" and "them" in Oblivion, however long that "period" might be? What force keeps "me" discrete?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:05 pm

Sayer - I'm getting the impression that Oblivion is somewhere south-west of Australia. Stop using that ridiculous initial capital in an attempt to make it look special. The word is oblivion - all lower case. And you're still declaring this special 'consciousness-in-waiting' thing you have in your head. You did not exist before you were conceived. There was no little area of the universe reserved for your potentiality. You did not awake from an unconscious state - there was simply no you at all. UNLESS, rather than your bold declaration of this strange, cold-jellyish state of being, you put your money where your mouth is and get down to demonstrating its existence. If you can't do that, you're navel-gazing.
I note with interest your technique of attempting to disallow any concept which troubles you, so I have no qualms at all about disallowing your insistence on an undemonstrable concept of your own. Stop attempting to apply thought control to the discussion and get to grips with something a tad more real, if you don't mind.

PS - The Peter Pan analogy is applicable, I think - you are definitely in danger of falling out of your pram.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:27 pm

I've said it so often already....... so on well greased skids I must say: "There is no such thing as Oblivion, and thanks to Poodle or poodle, no oblivion either."

Its only a word.

A symbolic construct existing only in the human mind.

Obviously: an easy thing to play with and become mesmerized by one's own BS.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Electro432 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:19 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Don't worry about Bobbo, Electro. He and I have crossed blades many times, and he has a long history of failing to understand my posts. Mostly I just ignore it these days.

Who do you think Electro is agreeing or disagreeing with and why?

I'll bet One Kudo you can't answer that.


I was only adding another strand to the complaint in terms of dumbed down behaviours that prevail within society these days. I might have also felt some bias towards the Pragmatist. If that at all helps matters.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Perhaps it is just a cognitive trick or an error of semantics.
My spelling of oblivion with a capital is when I'm on my phone idk why it corrects it to that lol.

I guess I'm trying to wrap my head round the idea that I used to not exist and now I do exist.
I am still unable to see a reason why unconsciousness would have to be eternal after my death.

The issue still hasn't been solved in my opinion.

So far as I'm concerned, it's the same after death is it was before birth.

I still can't see a good reason for why being born as another person, just like I've been born as sayer, couldn't happen.

The fact that consciousness may be produced by the brain does not change that logic.
I may be accused of being excessively insistent in this line of thought, but I'm fairly sure that people buying into eternal oblivion are equally as convinced.

That being said - the bottom line is you dont know, I dont know and nobody does until we actually get there. One of life's biggest mysteries. But nice speculating..

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:57 pm

..................and you never will.

Accept it.

Carry on.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:59 pm

sayer wrote:The fact that consciousness may be produced by the brain does not change that logic. .
Set out your working hypothesis, for any scenario, where human consciousness is not part of the physical human brain.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:12 pm

sayer wrote:Does no one here appreciate the idea that the ego is the illusory product of your neurology,

The ego is an evolved cognitive phenomena that evolved in the physical brain of hominids starting about 2.1 million years ago with homo habilis. Although the physical evolution as bi-peds started with Australopithecus, Australopithecus still had the brain (frontal lobes) of a monkey.

You claim that ego is "illusory" is not true as it is hard wired on your DNA.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:09 am

sayer wrote:I may be accused of being excessively insistent in this line of thought, but I'm fairly sure that people buying into eternal oblivion are equally as convinced.

That being said - the bottom line is you dont know, I dont know and nobody does until we actually get there. One of life's biggest mysteries. But nice speculating..
I'm not convinced of anything. Like you, I don't know. But I maintain any hypothesis about it must be logical.

In the end, we'll all find out. Or not find out, as the case may be, if our egos end at death.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:36 am

sayer wrote:I don't think anyone even understands what I'm intending to say lol.


You included, apparently.

It became way over complicated.


If an idea can't withstand close scrutiny, it's a good indication that the idea is fundamentally flawed.

The more one tries to analyse it the more paradoxical it becomes


This is another tell-tale sign that an idea is fundamentally flawed.

the basic logic feels pretty solid.


Not good enough, sayer. Logic doesn't "feel" solid, it either IS solid or it isn't. An argument "feels" solid so long as you don't test it rigorously, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will prove to be solid when you do. Any skeptic worthy of the designation will always endeavor to test ideas rigorously.

Basically, since your sense of self is the epiphenomena of neurons anyway, you are not really the body or the brain or the mind. What you think of as 'you' is a temporary, artificially imposed conceptual boundary. In reality there is no such boundary. Your actual existential nature is as Everything.


No, it means that 'you' are an even more ephemeral phenomenon than your body and brain. It means that the existence of 'you' is subsequent to and dependent upon the body and brain, not vice-versa.

You are, in short, Everything experiencing itself as one thing.


So in other words, all you had to do to 'prove' that reincarnation can happen was violate the most fundamental law of logic.


When you go back into being Everything, why can you not incarnate again?


What do you mean by "you go back into being Everything"? The things that give rise to "you" (e.g. the body and the brain) don't go back into being "Everything", rather they disperse and take on new forms (e.g. dust, worm poo, fossils, ash). Your "Everything" is just a reification of a semantic catch-all.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Phoenix76 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:58 am

Gee whizz, I think I need a beer or two after reading this page of posts, trouble is I've got to go out tonight so I can't til I come home.

Sayer, me thinks that you are really over thinking this whole thing. There is absolutely no evidence to support your convoluted theory.

Before we are conceived (as distinct from born) we are nothing, non existent. At some stage between conception and birth, we become a human being with limited abilities. As we grow, our abilities grow and increase.

When we die, that's it, we are dead. Our bodies start to decay very quickly, and that includes our brain matter. There is nothing there to be re-born or re-incarnated or whatever term you wish to use. There is no afterlife, no spirituality, nothing. The only statement in the christian bible that I will give any credence to is - "Dust to Dust, Ashes to Ashes", and that my friend, is the whole of it. We are comprised of a couple of dollars worth of chemicals, nothing more.

As I see it, the only people who can't grasp the idea of dead is dead, that's all folks, are people with a religious leaning. They seem to grasp at anything, or their god, to find a way for life to continue on beyond death. Well it doesn't happen.

Sayer, unless you have proof of this something before being born, or proof of this something after being dead, or proof of this re-incarnation or whatever, then I've lost interest. I love to debate, but thread is crazy. Sorry.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:48 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
gorgeous wrote:seth--------You will reincarnate whether or not you believe that you will....
Seth, the fictional alien, didn't reincarnate in any of the Seth stories. Did you forget again?

Come to think about it.....neither did Jane Roberts who wrote the Seth stories.
:lol:


Hmmmmmmm ... Have you ever thought about the true identity of the entity known as Gorgeous?


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