Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:10 pm

"... otherwise you wouldn't not have been born and experiencing right now"
Look - I'm sorry - maybe I'm simply a dinosaur - but I'm afraid that anyone who can type this, presumably check it, and then post it has to be a brain cell short of a cockroach. If you want a reasonable discussion, whoever you are, please do us the courtesy of using language which is immediately understandable.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby gorgeous » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:34 pm

Scott de Tamble (in my video...he does past life regressions) --says you --have a soul group whom you've been with for centuries....spirit guides who help you in your life choices....then he asks the wisest most evolved divine council what is the soul stuck on...what are their gifts, on the council---one is a spokesperson, one is a master healer , others are experts in different areas...as you grow in interests your council will grow in numbers ...experts in art, music, sports, business, relationships,.....all have planning sessions....talk with guides talking about possible lives to choose from....Tamble says it sounds like they are selling you a car..."we have this life in California...you can surf...we have this poor life in India ...you will learn a great deal "...
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:36 pm

sayer wrote:It doesn't have to be the 'same brain' or ego because if there was a conscious experience occurring at an earlier time, before your birth - just as there s one occurring for you right now - the same thing might occur again after you have died and gone once again into non-existence after death.


Yes there was conscious experience before I was born - in my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and so on. It is trivial to suggest that conscious experience in and of itself can emerge - and indeed continually emerges - from "non-existence" (more specifically the absence of conscious experience). The critical question here is whether any kind of personal identity can recur with/in these continual emergences of conscious experience.

While it is certainly conceivable and even likely that subjective experiences of personal identity very much like my own have occurred before my birth and will occur after my death, this does not necessarily mean that they were (or will be) the same one that I am/am having. Evolution provides a good analogy: nature might in the distant future produce a new set of creatures which are very much like dinosaurs, but that doesn't mean they will be dinosaurs.

1. Prior to your birth there was no conscious experience
2. Now you are having a conscious experience
3. Following your death there will be no conscious experience


What exactly is this "you" though? Is it that which has conscious experience, or is it a product of conscious experience? My own view is that "you" are an unfolding story, or an interweaving set of unfolding stories. IMO the Universe seems to like to recycling the same story themes and is even inclined to reuse the same combination of story themes. But even if we adopt a holistic big-picture view wherein the Universe itself conspires for one set of stories in one conscious experience to be somehow echoed or continued in a later, seemingly separate conscious experience (and at this stage I don't think such a view can be considered either verified or disproven), I'm not sure that this is equivalent to "you" being reincarnated.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:36 pm

sayer wrote:... We know it's true that there was once a state of unconsciousness before you were born. This is the exact same state as after death ...

You can stop right there. We know no such thing. If you think you know, get the evidence up front. No beating about the bush, mind - straightforward, unequivocal evidence of your rather over the top claim.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:49 pm

Poodle wrote:
sayer wrote:... We know it's true that there was once a state of unconsciousness before you were born. This is the exact same state as after death ...

You can stop right there. We know no such thing. If you think you know, get the evidence up front. No beating about the bush, mind - straightforward, unequivocal evidence of your rather over the top claim.

You know that's not going to happen.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:26 pm

How about I rephrase it as such.

I do not mean that your existence is echoed by someone else at another point.

I mean that the experience of being born and living a lifetime can occur again.

It is occurring right now; that's what you're experiencing. Being born is something that happens. It has happened to you recently.

My question is.... this experience which is being had now, of phenomena, of birth and conscious experience.... WHY would it be illogical to assume that it could occur again?

If for example I made a cup of tea and was sitting there drinking it, and I finished it.... wouldn't it make sense, based on my experience, that the cup could be filled and drunk from again?

And wouldn't it make sense that having been born and experiencing once, I could conceivably do it again?

Now the question is about the continuity; would it still be 'you' and what is this mysterious 'you' that seems to persevere?

Bottom line - 'you' are just everything, the universe, temporarily having a conscious experience of itself as a separate thing. That's not woo, that's what consciousness is; matter organising itself in such a way that a portion of the universe becomes conscious of itself for a period of time.

So if after you're dead this body simply ends why can you not be born again, as you were in this lifetime, to experience again, as you are doing now?

Where's the logic that says you can't be born multiple times jut as you were born once already? It's not enough to discard the idea of a continuous 'you' because there was no you before you were born, and now there is a you.

AFTER YOURE DEAD, ONCE AGAIN THERE WONT BE A YOU. SO WHY CANT YOU GO FROM NOT-YOU, TO ANOTHER YOU, AGAIN??

*phew* hope that was clear.

I'm saying that it looks like a cycle, with pre birth and post death being the same. Suggesting that post death IS pre birth.

Put simply - all consciousness emerges from unconsciousness; why can this only be done once??

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:35 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Poodle wrote:
sayer wrote:... We know it's true that there was once a state of unconsciousness before you were born. This is the exact same state as after death ...

You can stop right there. We know no such thing. If you think you know, get the evidence up front. No beating about the bush, mind - straightforward, unequivocal evidence of your rather over the top claim.

You know that's not going to happen.



"We know no such thing" "straightforward, unequivocal evidence"

Um... you're suggesting that you WERENT unconscious before you were born?
So you're positing a heaven or supernatural pre-birth environment?

Here's some straightforward unequivocal evidence - the experience of every human being ever. That being that before we were born, we weren't conscious.

"You know that's not going to happen".

Now that is apparently something that he didn't know. As opposed to the unequivocal and straightforward evidence of every human being ever, which is that pre both and post death both imply unconsciousness. Unless either of you want to argue for an afterlife??

I hope that's straightforward and unequivocal enough. The alternative is that you're putting forward another supernatural realm, but I don't think that's necessary for the argument.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:52 pm

Again and again: there was no "you" before you were born...............and no "you" after you die.

Words are symbols we use to represent the world. They don't do a perfect job.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:27 pm

Words don't change the nature of the experience of unconsciousness and consciousness. I can label a person in a vegetative state however I want; the nature of his experience is exactly the same.

Once again, this isn't a semantic fault. Pre birth there is nothing. After birth there is a lifetime of conscious experience. Following that, there is nothing again.

Post death and pre birth are the same state. That's not just semantics; it's the same as saying "the bachelor and the unmarried man are the same", they're the same thing.

Think about this. There's only two possibilities for after death.
1. There's something - an afterlife, a heaven, an experience.
2. There's nothing, consciousness ceases.

Now if number two is the option you go with, that is IDENTICAL to the state of before-birth. I.e. Non-existence, nothingness, there's no you.

Where's the logic that would state that after having died, one cannot emerge into another lifetime, not as the same person but as another person? The argument that there's no 'continuity of self' doesn't disprove the concept because we can say that once you die you're 'everything', following which you refocus into 'something'. Just like how before you were born you were not a separate individual but simply everything; you then became an individual.

There's not a gap in the logic as far as I can see.

Don't exist - do exist - don't exist

States 1 and 3 are the same... could we not add another -do exist- on the end?

Don't exist - do exist - don't exist - do exist?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:34 pm

sayer wrote:My question is.... this experience which is being had now, of phenomena, of birth and conscious experience.... WHY would it be illogical to assume that it could occur again?
Why, to you, is it a logical to assume that it can recur?
sayer wrote:MyIf for example I made a cup of tea and was sitting there drinking it, and I finished it.... wouldn't it make sense, based on my experience, that the cup could be filled and drunk from again?
Yes, but you couldn't fill it with the same tea, the tea you had already drunk.
sayer wrote:And wouldn't it make sense that having been born and experiencing once, I could conceivably do it again?
This implies that awareness existed in Eternal Oblivion, and that finding your way out of EO is an experience in your memory, a learned skill that is retained.
sayer wrote:Bottom line - 'you' are just everything, the universe, temporarily having a conscious experience of itself as a separate thing. That's not woo, that's what consciousness is; matter organising itself in such a way that a portion of the universe becomes conscious of itself for a period of time.
Even if your description is scientifically correct, for your reincarnation theory to hold water, the consciousness would have to survive the death of the body.
sayer wrote:Where's the logic that says you can't be born multiple times jut as you were born once already?
It's your hypothesis. Where's the logic that says you can?
sayer wrote:AFTER YOURE DEAD, ONCE AGAIN THERE WONT BE A YOU. SO WHY CANT YOU GO FROM NOT-YOU, TO ANOTHER YOU, AGAIN??
Because it won't be "you," will it? Unless you're also presupposing that your ego survives the death of your body, remains intact in EO, and remembers how to escape EO.
sayer wrote:I'm saying that it looks like a cycle, with pre birth and post death being the same. Suggesting that post death IS pre birth.
Why does it look like a cycle? Because that would nicely tie up the chaos into a pattern you can understand?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:05 pm

The reason I believe that one CAN go from Oblivion to Consciousness is because... that's everyone's first hand experience. That's what my life is. Therefore all the evidence I have suggests that this is possible.

What happens when all the evidence points to one thing and none of the evidence points to anything else.

Don't exist - do exist - don't exist

I know that a transition from stage 1 to stage 2 is possible. Seeing as stage 1 and stage 3 are the same, why can't it re-occur, the MOST logical conclusion based on ALL the evidence I have is that I'll be born again.

Can you see that semantic complications don't invalidate that? There are only two possible states, conscious and unconscious. There's not enough complexity there for it to be a semantic trick.

There's also no 'chaos' that needs to be explained since once again, it's just a matter of two states. There'd not enough complexity there to call that 'chaos', a person is simply conscious or not conscious and there is nothing in between.

Can you also see that the concept of there being a 'continuous self' is not necessary as we're talking on the most basic level of logic. If we return to the teacup analogy - there's either some tea in there or there's not. We don't have to talk about non physical continuations of tea, whether the ego of the tea is the same or whether there's a tea heaven. It's not that complicated; it's just there was tea in the cup, now it's empty, so it can be filled again.

It's also not valid to say that 'you couldn't fill it with the same tea, the tea that you'd already drunk'. Why? Because every atom and quanta of energy that is 'you' is completely replaced every seven years or so. If that's your definition of death, you've already died. The 'tea' that was you when you were seven is already COMPLETELY GONE but that does not change the fact that you're still conscious.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:11 pm

Apophenia is, I'm afraid, referring to seeing patterns in random unrelated data, such as suspecting people of plotting against you because they were having a conversation. It refers to psychosis and confusion, whereas I am pointing to a potential genuine insight. I'm not making any leaps of logic or belief, so I don't think you could dismiss it as apophenia.

What I've presented is coherent and easy for any to person to understand or agree with. There is no random data and no complexity, it's just a matter of two states that everyone can testify to. Pre birth, during life be post death; those are meaningful terms that are labelling simple, clear data.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:13 pm

Sorry for a few misspellings and misplaced words above, my phone has an annoying spellcheck lol

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:20 pm

sayer wrote:What happens when all the evidence points to one thing and none of the evidence points to anything else.
What evidence?! You haven't offered any. You've randomly defined words and concepts, made huge assumptions, and jumped to conclusions based on your confirmation biases.
sayer wrote:Seeing as stage 1 and stage 3 are the same
Assumption without evidence, since you experienced neither stage, have no evidence of either stage, and cannot currently measure either stage or even prove they exist.
sayer wrote:There's also no 'chaos' that needs to be explained since once again, it's just a matter of two states. There'd not enough complexity there to call that 'chaos', a person is simply conscious or not conscious and there is nothing in between.
You misinterpreted my meaning. I meant that you're imposing a pattern on the randomness of life and death to import subjective and personal meaning to these experiences.
sayer wrote:Can you also see that the concept of there being a 'continuous self' is not necessary as we're talking on the most basic level of logic. If we return to the teacup analogy - there's either some tea in there or there's not. We don't have to talk about non physical continuations of tea, whether the ego of the tea is the same or whether there's a tea heaven. It's not that complicated; it's just there was tea in the cup, now it's empty, so it can be filled again.
If the same "you" is to be born repeatedly, your ego must survive. Otherwise, it's not the same "you." It's not "you" at all in the same way that your second cup of tea is not the same tea.
sayer wrote:It's also not valid to say that 'you couldn't fill it with the same tea, the tea that you'd already drunk'. Why? Because every atom and quanta of energy that is 'you' is completely replaced every seven years or so. If that's your definition of death, you've already died. The 'tea' that was you when you were seven is already COMPLETELY GONE but that does not change the fact that you're still conscious.
Right. So how can "you" be born again unless your ego survives the death of the body?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:42 pm

You're still over complicating it.

The evidence = my conscious experience.

You HAVE TO agree that there was no consciousness before birth/ after death unless you want to argue that there's an afterlife state. Do you? If not, you agree with me.

Also - the evidence of the brain as apparently producing consciousness? Is that not sufficient evidence for the fact that before birth and after death, there is no consciousness?

The problem isn't really with the evidence because I'm already 100% assured that any sceptic, including you, agrees with me on that. "Assumption without evidence?"
That's not the case, the evidence we have - again, unless you want to argue an afterlife - points to exactly what I've just said. That there's no consciousness before birth or after death.

The ONLY assumption I've made is that there's no afterlife. Therefore the argument that I've made some kind logical leap based on wild assumptions is simply not valid.

You already presumably, unless you're religious, agree with the evidence. It seems as if the point of discussion is more around who 'you' are and what the ego is that's surviving.

There isn't one!! There doesn't need to be a continuous ego for ot to be true that you were born and are conscious.

Again - all the energy that you were made of at age seven is already entirely gone. That suggests that being conscious is not a matter of whether you're still in the same body or the same mater, because that's not the case anyway.

You were already born once, so you know that being born happens - full stop. There is no need to concern yourself with continuous souls or egos or any of that. All you need to know is that being born is something which happens.

THAT IN ITSELF DISPROVES THAT OBLIVION IS ETERNAL.

If the state of oblivion was eternal, you wouldn't be having a conscious experience right now!!! Because the original unconsciousness that the universe existed in before life, produced consciousness. That suggests that you can go from that state to a loving state, and that's all you need to know to see that you can be born multiple times.

One can have multiple life experiences, but not as a chain, rather as "I am this person"... and then a period of "I am everything and everyone"... and then another period of "I am another person".

Does that make sense to you?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:44 pm

*living not loving, Jesus sorry for the mistakes. Hope you can read it alright

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:22 pm

sayer wrote:Apophenia is, I'm afraid, referring to seeing patterns in random unrelated data, such as suspecting people of plotting against you because they were having a conversation. It refers to psychosis and confusion, whereas I am pointing to a potential genuine insight. I'm not making any leaps of logic or belief, so I don't think you could dismiss it as apophenia.

What I've presented is coherent and easy for any to person to understand or agree with. There is no random data and no complexity, it's just a matter of two states that everyone can testify to. Pre birth, during life be post death; those are meaningful terms that are labelling simple, clear data.

Yes. Exactly. But it's not confined to psychosis. Rather, it's a universal human tendency that includes the concepts of pareidolia, confirmation bias, etc. Your example doesn't fit the concept of apophenia; that's just a paranoid delusion. What does fit the concept is playing a record backwards and hearing words where there are none, seeing Jesus' face on a piece of toast, thinking that Tarot cards have meaning and can discern the future, believing that playing "lucky numbers" will increase your chances of winning the lottery, and otherwise imposing meaningful patterns onto chaos.

Since you have no evidence for your hypothesis, you are making huge leaps of both faith and logic. Stop and think about the number of assumptions you've made on the way to your conclusion:

• Assumption: That pre-birth oblivion and post-death oblivion are the same state of nonexistence. (You've offered no evidence for this. You claim this conclusion is logical, but it's actually a fallacy. Two things which appear to be alike are not necessarily equal to each other.)

• Assumption: That "you" exist in perpetuity, regardless of the lack of continuity of consciousness. (Again, no evidence and no logical explanation for how this is achieved.)

• Assumption: After death, "you" emerge into another lifetime, not as the same person, but as another person. However, this new person is somehow still "you." (WTactualF? If the body isn't "you," and the consciousness isn't "you," and there are no memories of prior lifetimes or of oblivion, what part of this new person is "you?")
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gord » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:46 pm

sayer wrote:
Gord wrote:
sayer wrote:The brain you possess now is a new one, but this experience it has produced of 'you' came out of a state of non-existence.

I just made a sandwich. Did it come out of a state of non-existence? I have to ask, because I'm pretty sure it didn't but I'm not sure how you'll interpret it.

Did the sandwich exist before you made it? No. So yes it went from non existence to existence.

Unless you go down the road of 'it always existed' as in simultaneous time, which can be scientifically argued for, but I was speaking about it in a linear sense. First it didn't exist, then it did.

However seeing that the sandwich is not conscious I'm not sure that's a very apt analogy.

The sandwich didn't exist, but the individual elements did. It's only a sandwich because the concept of "sandwich" is applied to it by us. So in the sense of not having to name everything, yes, the sandwich existed before I made it. However, in the sense of having to name everything, no, the sandwich did not exist before I made it.

The same can be said for anything else. All the components of "you" existed before what we name "you" existed, therefore "you" existed as an unnamed thing not yet formed until "you" were reshaped and came to be the "you" that is so named.

And how do you know the sandwich isn't conscious? It looked like a very smart sandwich before I ate it!

And now that it's been eaten, the sandwich still exists, just not in its named form.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:55 pm

Gord wrote:And now that it's been eaten, the sandwich still exists, just not in its named form.
It is now The Eternal Sandwich of the Spotless Plate. :wgrin:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:03 pm

I don't have a sandwich, so I make a sandwich, and that proves that reincarnation is a fact? I think you may be one sandwich short of a picnic.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:11 pm

Time to send in the picadores.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:19 pm

I understand what Sayer is getting at. On one level, it makes sense.

If we assume that, in the next 10,000 years, a trillion people get born, live their lives, and die, it is statistically inevitable that some will have personalities very similar to your own. Sayer is suggesting that one or more will be similar enough for you to be essentially reborn. So that your personality will live again.

This logic is based on an assumption, that a new personality in another body can be similar enough to be considered the same. I am not so sure. The human brain is enormously complex, with a trillion neural connections. Can another brain in another body, with all the random differences we expect, be that similar ?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:09 pm

Lance: nothing supports what you just said. Who are you trying to pimp?

As demonstrated by: If we assume nothing related to the subject at all, then Today on Planet Earth you have a personal doppelganger that is just psychologically like you in every respect. Do you like chocolate ice cream? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you like women in short skirts? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you vote Liberal if the person is not a criminal? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you want a small family of only 2-3-4-or 5 kiddies? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you get startled at strange noises in the night? WHY SO DO THEY.

.........and so on. Moronically..........so on.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby gorgeous » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:24 pm

we are not a brain and a body...reincarnation is real
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:26 pm

Gord wrote:
sayer wrote:
Gord wrote:
sayer wrote:The brain you possess now is a new one, but this experience it has produced of 'you' came out of a state of non-existence.

I just made a sandwich. Did it come out of a state of non-existence? I have to ask, because I'm pretty sure it didn't but I'm not sure how you'll interpret it.

Did the sandwich exist before you made it? No. So yes it went from non existence to existence.

Unless you go down the road of 'it always existed' as in simultaneous time, which can be scientifically argued for, but I was speaking about it in a linear sense. First it didn't exist, then it did.

However seeing that the sandwich is not conscious I'm not sure that's a very apt analogy.

The sandwich didn't exist, but the individual elements did. It's only a sandwich because the concept of "sandwich" is applied to it by us. So in the sense of not having to name everything, yes, the sandwich existed before I made it. However, in the sense of having to name everything, no, the sandwich did not exist before I made it.

The same can be said for anything else. All the components of "you" existed before what we name "you" existed, therefore "you" existed as an unnamed thing not yet formed until "you" were reshaped and came to be the "you" that is so named.

And how do you know the sandwich isn't conscious? It looked like a very smart sandwich before I ate it!

And now that it's been eaten, the sandwich still exists, just not in its named form.


Thank you Lance for the support but I wasn't presenting the idea of a doppelgänger.

The response argument here is -
1. you're made out of components that always existed
2. Therefore you can only be born once

I can't see the logical progression from 1 to 2.

My argument was that, having had the experience of being born and being conscious once, and having previously not been conscious, AND as was added, being composed of the same energy as everything else, why can this 'being born' experience not occur again?

I still haven't really seen a satisfactory or clear answer.

"There's no continuous you" doesn't really refute it.
"You're made out of components that already existed" doesn't really refute it, because it just plays with the semantics but doesn't change the facts of consciousness and unconsciousness.

I will restate again.

Pre birth unconsciousness.... gave way to during life consciousness.... which ends in post death unconsciousness.

Post death and pre birth are identical.

Therefore why can the experience of living not occur more than once.

Please, a clear answer.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Lance: nothing supports what you just said. Who are you trying to pimp?

As demonstrated by: If we assume nothing related to the subject at all, then Today on Planet Earth you have a personal doppelganger that is just psychologically like you in every respect. Do you like chocolate ice cream? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you like women in short skirts? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you vote Liberal if the person is not a criminal? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you want a small family of only 2-3-4-or 5 kiddies? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you get startled at strange noises in the night? WHY SO DO THEY.

.........and so on. Moronically..........so on.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:37 pm

sayer: what are your pre birth experiences?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:18 pm

sayer wrote: The response argument here is -
1. you're made out of components that always existed
2. Therefore you can only be born once

I can't see the logical progression from 1 to 2.


You are mixing up the singular "You" with the individual parts, despite the fact those individual parts are not connected with you yet. That is pointless. A particular car is not reborn all because rubber and steel already exist.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:19 pm

Sorry, Sayer.

Your 'logic ' is faulty. The fact that we are all made of stuff that has been around, in one form or another, for more than 12 billion years, does not mean that our form will re emerge. What makes a human Individual is not the building blocks (atoms) , but the pattern of construction. You can build two houses which are very different to each other, but both made of bricks. Pull one house down , and those bricks can be used to build a third house, different to the first two.

What makes people what they are, is not what they are made of, but how it is put together. The atoms that make up my body may once have been a part of a dinosaur. That does not make me part dinosaur.

If you want to postulate a person being recreated, you do not need to suggest the same atoms. That is beause all atoms of one kind (like oxygen atoms for example) are identical to each other. Different atoms are OK for such a recreation, but they must be put together in the same pattern. This is where your idea breaks down. The human body, and especially the human brain, is so complex that the odds against it ever being recreated are just too high.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby gorgeous » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:23 pm

pre birth...you are energy....a council helps you decide when, where, parents you will have...what lessons you need to learn.......same for everyone... ----------"Life before Life" by Helen Wambach---------she hypnotised 750 subjects and questioned them about life before life....the results were surprising...she asked among others if they chose to live on Earth again..only 28% were happy about returning to physical bodies....the rest were counseled that they needed more experience and learning and must return. They all chose to be born , though most were reluctant, a few seemingly against their will. ------------Some of the subjects said this--------"My mother was unhappy. I was aware of her unhappiness. In the birth-canal I had a backache , then flexed and felt better. The impressions after birth were that it was very funny because people think you know nothing, but you know it all, and it's very funny."--------------------------------"When you asked about attachment to the fetus , I felt I didn't enter the fetus until my mother was in labor. I felt anger at the loss of control as soon as I was born"-------------------------------"No, I didn't choose to be born. I was instructed to return"-------"Yes, I chose to be born and I was helped in this choice by a council of souls. I knew my parents needed me because they lost a 15 month old child in a fire. I was eager to come to them"----------------"I wanted to be female for pleasure, but I chose the male sex for this liftetime because for me the tests would be harder." ----------------"I chose to be female because I felt it would be easier to help people as a female."----------------"I chose to be female because a man cannot give as fully as a female."-----------------"My sex was not important for my purpose" -----------------"Yes, I was male in my last life and I wanted to continue where I left off. I had wanted to become a scientist in my last life, but I had died as a young soldier."-----"I chose to become male to lessen the shock of physical sensation."---------------"When you asked about a purpose for this life, it flashed in my mind that I thought I was a lttle too special, and I'm here this time to work through that mighty ego."------------"When you asked about a purpose, I understood why I did choose my parents. It was to help them in the working of their karmas. I felt I was to be used as the instrument to help my parents."------------------"When you asked about a purpose, I felt that I came this time to be a nurturer."--------------"My purpose was to live in a time of great trials, and to learn from them."----------------"My twin wanted to go into physical life at this time and talked me into going with her."-------------"I chose this time period because it's the era of outer space." -----"My purpose was to develop my inner self and independence."---------------"When you asked what my purpose was, the words' 'to get along with others' was repeated 3 times."
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:32 pm

gorgeous wrote:pre birth...you are energy....a council helps you decide when, where, parents you will have...what lessons you need to learn.......same for everyone... ----------"Life before Life" by Helen Wambach---------she hypnotised 750 subjects and questioned them about life before life....the results were surprising...she asked among others if they chose to live on Earth again..only 28% were happy about returning to physical bodies....the rest were counseled that they needed more experience and learning and must return. They all chose to be born , though most were reluctant, a few seemingly against their will. ------------Some of the subjects said this--------"My mother was unhappy. I was aware of her unhappiness. In the birth-canal I had a backache , then flexed and felt better. The impressions after birth were that it was very funny because people think you know nothing, but you know it all, and it's very funny."--------------------------------"When you asked about attachment to the fetus , I felt I didn't enter the fetus until my mother was in labor. I felt anger at the loss of control as soon as I was born"-------------------------------"No, I didn't choose to be born. I was instructed to return"-------"Yes, I chose to be born and I was helped in this choice by a council of souls. I knew my parents needed me because they lost a 15 month old child in a fire. I was eager to come to them"----------------"I wanted to be female for pleasure, but I chose the male sex for this liftetime because for me the tests would be harder." ----------------"I chose to be female because I felt it would be easier to help people as a female."----------------"I chose to be female because a man cannot give as fully as a female."-----------------"My sex was not important for my purpose" -----------------"Yes, I was male in my last life and I wanted to continue where I left off. I had wanted to become a scientist in my last life, but I had died as a young soldier."-----"I chose to become male to lessen the shock of physical sensation."---------------"When you asked about a purpose for this life, it flashed in my mind that I thought I was a lttle too special, and I'm here this time to work through that mighty ego."------------"When you asked about a purpose, I understood why I did choose my parents. It was to help them in the working of their karmas. I felt I was to be used as the instrument to help my parents."------------------"When you asked about a purpose, I felt that I came this time to be a nurturer."--------------"My purpose was to live in a time of great trials, and to learn from them."----------------"My twin wanted to go into physical life at this time and talked me into going with her."-------------"I chose this time period because it's the era of outer space." -----"My purpose was to develop my inner self and independence."---------------"When you asked what my purpose was, the words' 'to get along with others' was repeated 3 times."


I assume no one else read that load of crap.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby gorgeous » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:34 pm

^^scared it's real...
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:35 pm

And in that lies the proof that all that is hogwash. No poor soul, however desperate, would ever choose to be this kind of messenger...
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:41 pm

gorgeous wrote:^^scared it's real...
No Gorgeous. It was your normal off topic, copy & pasted rubbish.

You only come here to get abused by "rude" skeptics remember? That's why you post rubbish on purpose. You love being abused.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:45 pm

sayer wrote:I do not mean that your existence is echoed by someone else at another point.

I mean that the experience of being born and living a lifetime can occur again.


Obviously it can and does all the time. But that doesn't necessarily mean your experience can occur again.

My question is.... this experience which is being had now, of phenomena, of birth and conscious experience.... WHY would it be illogical to assume that it could occur again?


It's not. But you are conflating conscious experience with "my" conscious experience.

If for example I made a cup of tea and was sitting there drinking it, and I finished it.... wouldn't it make sense, based on my experience, that the cup could be filled and drunk from again?


This isn't a very good analogy, because it seems like the cup would most logically correspond to your body/brain.

Aside from that, the cup is not necessarily going to be refilled with tea or even with the same kind of tea. Even if it were filled with the same kind of tea, that doesn't mean the new cup of tea is the same cup of tea as the previous one. They might be very similar, but similarity is not sufficient to establish common identity.

And wouldn't it make sense that having been born and experiencing once, I could conceivably do it again?


Depends what this "I" is.

Bottom line - 'you' are just everything, the universe, temporarily having a conscious experience of itself as a separate thing.


The whole point of the concept of "you" is that it can be distinguished from "not-you". Equating "you" to everything defeats the purpose of the concept, and follow your logic it could just as well be said that everyone else who is currently alive is also "you".

That's not woo, that's what consciousness is; matter organising itself in such a way that a portion of the universe becomes conscious of itself for a period of time.


But consciousness is not the same thing as personal identity. Rather, personal identity is a continually unfolding process which results from the interaction of consciousness and the dynamic contextual environment in which that consciousness occurs.

So if after you're dead this body simply ends why can you not be born again, as you were in this lifetime, to experience again, as you are doing now?


This question is pointless if you equate "you" to "everything".

Where's the logic that says you can't be born multiple times jut as you were born once already?


It's located in the definition of "you". In the case of your definition, it's not illogical so much as it is meaningless.

It's not enough to discard the idea of a continuous 'you' because there was no you before you were born, and now there is a you.


It is if "you" is regarded as a process which emerges from a unique set of interactions between a conscious organism and its environment.


AFTER YOURE DEAD, ONCE AGAIN THERE WONT BE A YOU. SO WHY CANT YOU GO FROM NOT-YOU, TO ANOTHER YOU, AGAIN??


Your question makes about as much sense as asking "after a particular football game is finished, why can't that game go from being finished to being replayed in every exact detail?" The answer to both questions is that we live in a universe of such enormous dynamic complexity that the exact repetition of a macro-scale event (let alone a set of macro-scale events) is rendered impossible.

I'm saying that it looks like a cycle, with pre birth and post death being the same. Suggesting that post death IS pre birth.


You could say that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that "you" have anything to do with that cycle.

Put simply - all consciousness emerges from unconsciousness; why can this only be done once??


It isn't. Again our parents and grandparents are all instances of this happening, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are your parents or grandparents.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:46 pm

sayer wrote:Pre birth unconsciousness.... gave way to during life consciousness.... which ends in post death unconsciousness.

Post death and pre birth are identical.

Therefore why can the experience of living not occur more than once.

Please, a clear answer.

If you snuff out a candle, that flame is gone. It does not go to some magical place and wait to be rekindled somewhere sometime. If you relight the wick, you'll observe a nearly identical, yet still new and different flame.

Your premise of a pre and/or after unconscious consciousness is not sustainable until you have provided sufficient evidence of such. Argument from wishful thinking and/or incredulity doesn't cut it.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Electro432 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:12 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Lance: nothing supports what you just said. Who are you trying to pimp?

As demonstrated by: If we assume nothing related to the subject at all, then Today on Planet Earth you have a personal doppelganger that is just psychologically like you in every respect. Do you like chocolate ice cream? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you like women in short skirts? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you vote Liberal if the person is not a criminal? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you want a small family of only 2-3-4-or 5 kiddies? WHY SO DO THEY. Do you get startled at strange noises in the night? WHY SO DO THEY.

.........and so on. Moronically..........so on.


Why and so they do... I ask that question every day, especially at work.

Why?
They do so and so, they do not. As they do not ask the right questions, it appears to be getting worse as the rise of drop down menu corporate managers is nigh.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:44 am

Don't worry about Bobbo, Electro. He and I have crossed blades many times, and he has a long history of failing to understand my posts. Mostly I just ignore it these days.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:42 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Don't worry about Bobbo, Electro. He and I have crossed blades many times, and he has a long history of failing to understand my posts. Mostly I just ignore it these days.

Who do you think Electro is agreeing or disagreeing with and why?

I'll bet One Kudo you can't answer that.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:00 am

Nor does it matter, Bobbo.
My point was that you have a serious problem understanding what others are trying to say.


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