Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

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Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:02 pm

If we were once non-existent but came out of that state into existence, then each of us has first hand experience that you can come out of the state of oblivion quite successfully. Why, then, is the belief in eternal nothingness considered coherent? All the evidence suggests that one can be born and can emerge out of oblivion quite easily... and this happens extremely frequently.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:14 pm

That's some weird circular reasoning. Sorry, quite useless. Unless you can provide evidence for 'pregnant oblivion'?
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:17 pm

Circular reasoning........gives the word salad WAY too much credit.

Totally meaningless word drivel. Not even helped by starting with the first clue: "If"
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:18 pm

Oops, I just added the word 'weird' to it. It was felt but not expressed at the time. Can it enter oblivion now? :-P
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:54 pm

sayer wrote: All the evidence suggests that one can be born and can emerge out of oblivion quite easily... and this happens extremely frequently.


ev·i·dence
noun
1.
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Try again.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:03 pm

Fact - everyone you know was born at some point.
Information - you were also included amongst people who were born.
Indications as to whether a belief is true/valid : this proves that one can go from a state of oblivion to a state of consciousness.

Try again.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:08 pm

Word salad? Drivel? Which part of it is incoherent? Here, I'll break it down.

1 - Eternal Oblivion states that we cannot come out of a state of non existence.
2 - Being born means going from non existence to existence.
3 - Since people are being born all the time, this suggests that oblivion is not eternal because one can come out of it.

If theres a flaw in logic, please highlight it.
I badly want to talk to some sceptics rather than cynics.
Buzz words like' word salad' and 'circular reasoning' are wasting everyones time.

Why do people so rarely address the actual content of the post lol, I thought this was the sceptics forum?? That means engaging in actual sceptical investigation, no?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:26 pm

Where or what is "Eternal Oblivion"?

And what's so special about biological organisms reproducing?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:27 pm

And why is this topic in the "UFOs, Cryptozoology, and The Paranormal" subforum?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:31 pm

1 - Eternal Oblivion states that we cannot come out of a state of non existence. /// And yet .... we have. So "Eternal Oblivion is BS.
2 - Being born means going from non existence to existence. /// Correct.
3 - Since people are being born all the time, this suggests that oblivion is not eternal because one can come out of it. /// Thats right.........so what is your point?

If theres a flaw in logic, please highlight it. /// There is no flaw. Your logic DISPROVES the initial supposition. Do you think logic ALWAYS proves a positive? THAT would be incredibly ignorant.

I badly want to talk to some sceptics rather than cynics.
Buzz words like' word salad' and 'circular reasoning' are wasting everyones time. /// Yeah, not at all like Eternal Oblivion.

Why do people so rarely address the actual content of the post lol, I thought this was the sceptics forum?? That means engaging in actual sceptical investigation, no?[/quote] /// So far, you have two people.

Silly {!#%@}.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:09 pm

sayer wrote:If we were once non-existent but came out of that state into existence, then each of us has first hand experience that you can come out of the state of oblivion quite successfully. Why, then, is the belief in eternal nothingness considered coherent? All the evidence suggests that one can be born and can emerge out of oblivion quite easily... and this happens extremely frequently.


If consciousness is an emergent property of brain function, then consciousness emerges when the brain begins to function. When the brain ceases to function, the emergent consciousness also ceases.

Oblivion. Forever. No repetition. That individual will never exist again.

Your argument assumes a fact not in evidence - that consciousness exists as a separate entity.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:43 pm

seth--------You will reincarnate whether or not you believe that you will...It is much easier if your theories fit reality, but if they do not, then you do not change the nature of reincarnation one iota.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:01 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1 - Eternal Oblivion states that we cannot come out of a state of non existence. /// And yet .... we have. So "Eternal Oblivion is BS.
2 - Being born means going from non existence to existence. /// Correct.
3 - Since people are being born all the time, this suggests that oblivion is not eternal because one can come out of it. /// Thats right.........so what is your point?

If theres a flaw in logic, please highlight it. /// There is no flaw. Your logic DISPROVES the initial supposition. Do you think logic ALWAYS proves a positive? THAT would be incredibly ignorant.

I badly want to talk to some sceptics rather than cynics.
Buzz words like' word salad' and 'circular reasoning' are wasting everyones time. /// Yeah, not at all like Eternal Oblivion.

Why do people so rarely address the actual content of the post lol, I thought this was the sceptics forum?? That means engaging in actual sceptical investigation, no?
/// So far, you have two people.

Silly {!#%@}.[/quote]


To clarify for people who haven't studied philosophy and didn't Google the term - Eternal Oblivion is the theory that following death, there is just 'nothing forever'. People seem to have mistaken my post as trying to prove it but the whole point is that I'm refuting it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_oblivion

I'll restate this - the fact that you were born means that you CAME OUT OF A STATE OF NON-CONSCIOUSNESS.

That is solid evidence for the fact that once in a state of non-existence or non-consciousness, one can and does come out of it. This seems to disprove the idea that after going into a state of non existence/consciousness, one is there forever i.e. eternal oblivion or 'nothing forever'.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:06 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
sayer wrote:If we were once non-existent but came out of that state into existence, then each of us has first hand experience that you can come out of the state of oblivion quite successfully. Why, then, is the belief in eternal nothingness considered coherent? All the evidence suggests that one can be born and can emerge out of oblivion quite easily... and this happens extremely frequently.


If consciousness is an emergent property of brain function, then consciousness emerges when the brain begins to function. When the brain ceases to function, the emergent consciousness also ceases.

Oblivion. Forever. No repetition. That individual will never exist again.

Your argument assumes a fact not in evidence - that consciousness exists as a separate entity.



Nope, that assumption isn't necessary.

Do you agree that the state which you are in after the cessation of brain function, and the one you are in prior to being born, are the same? They are both a state of unconscious non-existence.

Your brain, a new brain, was created and you emerged out of that state.
I am curious as to why, having happened to you once, it cannot happen to you again - even though it clearly is a thing that happens.

Being dead is non existing. Not existing is the same whether post-death or pre-birth.
Being born is something that happens.
Therefore, being born once again after dying is not incoherent.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:08 pm

To quote bobbo_the_Pragmatist , 'And yet .... we have. So "Eternal Oblivion is BS.'

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:16 pm

sayer wrote:Fact - everyone you know was born at some point.
Information - you were also included amongst people who were born.
Indications as to whether a belief is true/valid : this proves that one can go from a state of oblivion to a state of consciousness.

Try again.

Not until you try at least once.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:19 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
sayer wrote:Fact - everyone you know was born at some point.
Information - you were also included amongst people who were born.
Indications as to whether a belief is true/valid : this proves that one can go from a state of oblivion to a state of consciousness.

Try again.

Not until you try at least once.


That was me trying? You just quoted my exact response to everything in your post?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:28 pm

There's that's better.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:38 pm

sayer wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
sayer wrote:If we were once non-existent but came out of that state into existence, then each of us has first hand experience that you can come out of the state of oblivion quite successfully. Why, then, is the belief in eternal nothingness considered coherent? All the evidence suggests that one can be born and can emerge out of oblivion quite easily... and this happens extremely frequently.


If consciousness is an emergent property of brain function, then consciousness emerges when the brain begins to function. When the brain ceases to function, the emergent consciousness also ceases.

Oblivion. Forever. No repetition. That individual will never exist again.

Your argument assumes a fact not in evidence - that consciousness exists as a separate entity.



Nope, that assumption isn't necessary.

Do you agree that the state which you are in after the cessation of brain function, and the one you are in prior to being born, are the same? They are both a state of unconscious non-existence.

Your brain, a new brain, was created

Formed.

and you emerged out of that state.
I am curious as to why, having happened to you once, it cannot happen to you again - even though it clearly is a thing that happens.

The likelihood the brain that spawned 'you' being recreated at one point under exactly the same conditions and in exactly the same way is nil.

Being dead is non existing. Not existing is the same whether post-death or pre-birth.
Being born is something that happens.
Therefore, being born once again after dying is not incoherent.

:lol:
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:50 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:There's that's better.


That doesn't make sense. What was your response to the argument?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:54 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
sayer wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
sayer wrote:If we were once non-existent but came out of that state into existence, then each of us has first hand experience that you can come out of the state of oblivion quite successfully. Why, then, is the belief in eternal nothingness considered coherent? All the evidence suggests that one can be born and can emerge out of oblivion quite easily... and this happens extremely frequently.


If consciousness is an emergent property of brain function, then consciousness emerges when the brain begins to function. When the brain ceases to function, the emergent consciousness also ceases.

Oblivion. Forever. No repetition. That individual will never exist again.

Your argument assumes a fact not in evidence - that consciousness exists as a separate entity.



Nope, that assumption isn't necessary.

Do you agree that the state which you are in after the cessation of brain function, and the one you are in prior to being born, are the same? They are both a state of unconscious non-existence.

Your brain, a new brain, was created

Formed.

and you emerged out of that state.
I am curious as to why, having happened to you once, it cannot happen to you again - even though it clearly is a thing that happens.

The likelihood the brain that spawned 'you' being recreated at one point under exactly the same conditions and in exactly the same way is nil.

Being dead is non existing. Not existing is the same whether post-death or pre-birth.
Being born is something that happens.
Therefore, being born once again after dying is not incoherent.

:lol:



"The likelihood the brain that spawned 'you' being recreated at one point under exactly the same conditions and in exactly the same way is nil."
No need for it to be the same brain. The brain you possess now is a new one, but this experience it has produced of 'you' came out of a state of non-existence. This has happened to you with a fresh brain once - why can it not happen with a new brain again?

The idea is that all of the evidence we've seen is birth, e.g. coming out oblivion. That is clearly possible, so why not after death? What is the concrete reason why it's not possible for you to, having had the experience of being non existent then existent once, have the same thing happen again?

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:57 pm

sayer wrote: Do you agree that the state which you are in after the cessation of brain function, and the one you are in prior to being born, are the same? They are both a state of unconscious non-existence.


Complete crap. If my body is cremated or my physical brain is destroyed, there is no object to apply the expression "consciousness" to. Therefore your claim is illogical and makes no sense.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:57 pm

sayer wrote:This seems to disprove the idea that after going into a state of non existence/consciousness, one is there forever i.e. eternal oblivion or 'nothing forever'.

OlegTheBatty wrote:If consciousness is an emergent property of brain function, then consciousness emerges when the brain begins to function. When the brain ceases to function, the emergent consciousness also ceases.

Oblivion. Forever. No repetition. That individual will never exist again.

Your argument assumes a fact not in evidence - that consciousness exists as a separate entity.

sayer wrote:Nope, that assumption isn't necessary.
How can "you" emerge intact from Eternal Oblivion if "you" are not intact while you're in Eternal Oblivion? If your ego does not survive Eternal Oblivion, then it's not "you" that's emerging from it.

sayer wrote:I am curious as to why, having happened to you once, it cannot happen to you again - even though it clearly is a thing that happens.
Because the egg and sperm that formed you the first time around no longer exist, and it's impossible for anyone to repeat the exact experiences of someone else...and it's your DNA and your experiences that molded your personality. So how can "you" be repeated when the situations that formed "you" can't be repeated?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:08 pm

It would of course not be you in the sense of the you are you now, but rather another conscious experience being had just as one is being had now.
Is it "complete crap" that before your birth there was no conscious experience, and now there is conscious experience?
Could this not occur a second time? Is it not evident that there was no conscious experience in the universe for billions of years but now there is one? That is irrefutable evidence that in the state of death - being the same as those billions of years of no consciousness existing - one can be born and become conscious.

The idea that there is no 'you' to talk about meaningfully does not disprove this, it just shows that it's possible for a subjective consciousness to appear where there wasn't one before; I'm asking why if that has happened once it can't happen again - suggesting reincarnation.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:10 pm

Yes, much better.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:15 pm

sayer wrote:
This seems to disprove the idea that after going into a state of non existence/consciousness, one is there forever i.e. eternal oblivion or 'nothing forever'.


Word Salad: when "you" die..... there is no "one" that goes into a state of non-existence. There is no one "there forever." These terms/ideas/notions are completely meaningless.

Imagine a ball in a box. Now.... take the ball out. Does the box exist in a state without the ball? Does the box exist without everything in the Universe not existing within it? What does "exist" mean in such a circumstance? Its a word salad confusion between what is, and what isn't.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:21 pm

sayer wrote:It would of course not be you in the sense of the you are you now, but rather another conscious experience being had just as one is being had now.
Well, then...it wouldn't be "me," would it? So how could it qualify as reincarnation?
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:31 pm

LunaNik wrote:
sayer wrote:It would of course not be you in the sense of the you are you now, but rather another conscious experience being had just as one is being had now.
Well, then...it wouldn't be "me," would it? So how could it qualify as reincarnation?


It wouldn't be the you who you are now. But it would be qualia, experience, phenomena, happening as it is happening now, featuring a different 'you'.

Why? Because that's something which clearly occurs - otherwise you wouldn't not have been born and experiencing right now

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:45 pm

sayer wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
sayer wrote:It would of course not be you in the sense of the you are you now, but rather another conscious experience being had just as one is being had now.
Well, then...it wouldn't be "me," would it? So how could it qualify as reincarnation?


It wouldn't be the you who you are now. But it would be qualia, experience, phenomena, happening as it is happening now, featuring a different 'you'.

Why? Because that's something which clearly occurs - otherwise you wouldn't not have been born and experiencing right now

A different "me" would not, in fact, be "me." Please explain the method by which "I" survive Eternal Oblivion to be reborn into a completely different body with a completely different brain, live a completely different life with completely different experiences...yet I'm somehow still the same ego. And I have no awareness of previous lives and time spent in Eternal Oblivion. Where's the continuity that ensures that "I" am still "me?"
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:48 pm

sayer wrote: The idea is that all of the evidence we've seen is birth, e.g. coming out oblivion.
Please read a basic book on DNA and reproduction. You do realise that the actual DNA templates come from both parents and the brain is not completely formed until roughly three years of age? :D

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Phoenix76 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:47 am

Sayer, without getting into an in depth physics discussion, the accepted principle is that we are made of the same stuff as the universe. This started happening at the big bang. As for prior to the big bang - when there was allegedly nothing there, the jury is still out, and it is doubtful we will ever know or understand.

As part of the big bang and its future development, there was evolution. We evolved first from the same materials of the big bang, and we (including bugs, non-human animals, flora &etc) have been able to reproduce our various species.

Your theory wavers from sometimes good to sometimes not good. But I do have a question.

Can you provide us with proof of your theory that we are somehow, in some form, reincarnated? I'm not talking about association, but causation.


See, if something doesn't exist, we actually can't prove it doesn't exist. We may believe in this something's non-existence, but we cannot prove it.

And your claim that birth is coming out of oblivion, well perhaps in a very broad sense. But, as has been said previously, every birth is a one off. It is that egg, that sperm, those specific progenitors - therefore that specific DNA. IMHO, the reincarnation you claim is impossible.

Even you said "It would of course not be you in the sense of the you are you now, but rather another conscious experience being had just as one is being had now." Mind you, that statement is not very clear Sayer, but the point is you have argued against yourself.

But I await with keen interest for you to put forward causation.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:13 am

There is no reason why, some time in the future, a person is born and grows who ends up very similar to a person who lives and dies now. This may be what Sayer is driving at. Of course, it would not be the same person. It is a different person who happens to be similar.

The human brain, in which our personal identity resides, has a trillion connections. No future person will have the same connections, and thus will not be the same person.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:19 am

Method of transmission of "soul" from one body to another is lacking. So is "soul" for that matter.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Phoenix76 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:36 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Method of transmission of "soul" from one body to another is lacking. So is "soul" for that matter.


In the words of one of our politicians here in Australia "Please Explain".

What is "soul"? A fish, the bottom part of my shoe? No, that's "sole" also as in alone.

Can you please explain what "soul" is.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:49 am

Phoenix76 wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Method of transmission of "soul" from one body to another is lacking. So is "soul" for that matter.


In the words of one of our politicians here in Australia "Please Explain".

What is "soul"? A fish, the bottom part of my shoe? No, that's "sole" also as in alone.

Can you please explain what "soul" is.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Poodle » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:52 am

Phoenix76 wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Method of transmission of "soul" from one body to another is lacking. So is "soul" for that matter.


In the words of one of our politicians here in Australia "Please Explain".

What is "soul"? A fish, the bottom part of my shoe? No, that's "sole" also as in alone.

Can you please explain what "soul" is.


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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Gord » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:38 am

sayer wrote:The brain you possess now is a new one, but this experience it has produced of 'you' came out of a state of non-existence.

I just made a sandwich. Did it come out of a state of non-existence? I have to ask, because I'm pretty sure it didn't but I'm not sure how you'll interpret it.
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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby Phoenix76 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:23 am

Hey Poodle, I love that response. :D

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:31 am

Gord wrote:
sayer wrote:The brain you possess now is a new one, but this experience it has produced of 'you' came out of a state of non-existence.

I just made a sandwich. Did it come out of a state of non-existence? I have to ask, because I'm pretty sure it didn't but I'm not sure how you'll interpret it.


Did the sandwich exist before you made it? No. So yes it went from non existence to existence.

Unless you go down the road of 'it always existed' as in simultaneous time, which can be scientifically argued for, but I was speaking about it in a linear sense. First it didn't exist, then it did.

However seeing that the sandwich is not conscious I'm not sure that's a very apt analogy.

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Re: Eternal Oblivion or Reincarnation?

Postby sayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:46 am

So to expand on the points of discussion raised:

"Are you suggesting a soul?"
No, no meed for that. Sticking with Ockham's Razor, lets leave out any extraneous imaginings and stick with just the core evidence that we know is true.
We know it's true that there was once a state of unconsciousness before you were born. This is the exact same state as after death.
However, the fact that you have emerged from that state suggests that it is VERY POSSIBLE to go from unconsciousness into a new life where you are conscious. In fact, that's exactly what has happened in this lifetime you're living.
No need to posit a non-physical soul to argue against eternal oblivion.

"If it's not the same brain and not the same ego then surely it's not me at all, meaning it's not reincarnation?"

It doesn't have to be the 'same brain' or ego because if there was a conscious experience occurring at an earlier time, before your birth - just as there s one occurring for you right now - the same thing might occur again after you have died and gone once again into non-existence after death.

"This is just word salad and a semantic error"
No, I think it's quite coherent. I've laid it out a few times and the concept can be understood, word salad would suggest that its totally devoid of any semantic meaning, which is clearly not the case.

It's also not semantics that you didn't exist at one point, and now you do exist. UNLESS you disagree with either of these statements:
1. Prior to your birth there was no conscious experience
2. Now you are having a conscious experience
3. Following your death there will be no conscious experience

Those are the only fairly easy assumptions you have to roll with, and I don't think any of them are semantic tricks, they're simply true.


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