Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:34 pm

Gord wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:Look at my previous post, I have sources which show that hypoxia, and oxygen loss do not cause NDEs, that's been debunked moons ago

I didn't say they caused NDEs; I said, The pilots' hallucinations had the same characteristics as NDEs, even though none was in a near-death situation.

I went looking for more information on this, but I couldn't find it.

Now, it's been stated that the symptoms of G-LOC include "rythmic jerking of the limbs, compromised memory of events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, tingling of extremities" that are not observed during NDEs. But does this mean all cases of hypoxia include those extra symptoms? For example, when people die on the operating table, do their bodies tend to go into "rhythmic jerking of the limbs"? And don't all people undergoing surgery experience "compromised memory of events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness"? And why would anyone under anaesthesia experience "tingling of the extremities" when they aren't supposed to be able to feel anything at all?
To be fair, I didn't say "all the same characteristics." :wgrin:

The myoclonic jerking is not a feature of NDEs, as far as I know. I include the caveat because most reports of NDEs come from those who have experienced the dreamlets, not the physicians who were treating the patients. However, during G-LOC, the increased G-force causes hypoxia to occur rapidly, acting like a centrifuge on the blood. Other methods of hypoxia generally have to do with lung or heart function, meaning it's a more gradual process. I presume the body would have different reactions to sudden hypoxia than it would to gradual hypoxia.

I can't speak to compromised memories prior to anesthesia-induced unconsciousness, except my own. I generally remember everything up to, "100, 99, 98, 97, 96..." including the list of questions asked of me and all the cross checks the surgeons make with their surgical teams. But, again, I presume that trauma would add a variable to that. Memories are often lost when trauma is involved.

Honestly, I would dismiss the "tingling of the extremities." It could be "ghosting," like what amputees "feel" from their missing limbs. When I had my c-section, I chanced to be in the middle of an examination when the spinal took effect...and spent the whole operation with "ghost" muscle aches in my legs. The last thing my brain remembered was my leg muscles contracted to hold my knees up and open. Even though my legs were now straight and flat on the operating table, my brain was telling me that my muscles were still contracted...and exhausted to the point of shaking.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:37 pm

Kamil wrote:
LunaNik wrote:Do you understand that sensory experiences, when they are misperceived by the brain due to trauma, illness, or dysfunction, do not "prove" anything?


Look at my previous post, I have sources which show that hypoxia, and oxygen loss do not cause NDEs, that's been debunked moons ago

You still haven't answered my question. Nor have you ruled out the myriad other organic causes of NDEs. You haven't even ruled out hypoxia.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:55 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:
LunaNik wrote:Do you understand that sensory experiences, when they are misperceived by the brain due to trauma, illness, or dysfunction, do not "prove" anything?


Look at my previous post, I have sources which show that hypoxia, and oxygen loss do not cause NDEs, that's been debunked moons ago

You still haven't answered my question. Nor have you ruled out the myriad other organic causes of NDEs. You haven't even ruled out hypoxia.

There is actually a paper I found which debunked hypoxia too I'll try to find it. If you found out NDEs were not caused by oxygen loss or hypoxia, would you believe they are real experiences? How about if you found out that even ketamine didn't cause it? Would you then believe it?

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:10 pm

Kamil wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:
LunaNik wrote:Do you understand that sensory experiences, when they are misperceived by the brain due to trauma, illness, or dysfunction, do not "prove" anything?


Look at my previous post, I have sources which show that hypoxia, and oxygen loss do not cause NDEs, that's been debunked moons ago

You still haven't answered my question. Nor have you ruled out the myriad other organic causes of NDEs. You haven't even ruled out hypoxia.

There is actually a paper I found which debunked hypoxia too I'll try to find it. If you found out NDEs were not caused by oxygen loss or hypoxia, would you believe they are real experiences? How about if you found out that even ketamine didn't cause it? Would you then believe it?

Of course not. Here's why:
1. NDEs remain anecdotal narratives, which are not evidence. If hundreds of people reported dreams with similar characteristics, that doesn't mean they actually experienced the events in their dreams. And that has happened. Falling is a common dream theme, but no one believes it was a real experience when they wake from such a dream.
2. Even if you rule out hypoxia and ketamine, there are still a myriad possible causes of neurological dysfunction, especially during trauma, which is a shock to the mind-body system. I've consistently said that the NDE dreamlets don't have just one cause.

Plus, I highly doubt that the paper to which you refer truly did debunk hypoxia, since it's a proven scientific fact that hypoxia causes the types of vivid dreamlets described in NDEs. The G-LOC study is proof of that. So, hypoxia is one proven cause of NDE dreamlets. Still, I am interested in reading that paper, though I doubt it's conclusion is scientifically-based, since none of the conclusions related to NDEs are. For example, you continue to make the claim that NDE dreamlets occur during periods of no brain activity, despite proof that EEGs don't detect all brain activity, and despite proof that a lack of pupillary reaction is not indicative of brain death. You can't dismiss the science.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:52 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:
LunaNik wrote:Do you understand that sensory experiences, when they are misperceived by the brain due to trauma, illness, or dysfunction, do not "prove" anything?


Look at my previous post, I have sources which show that hypoxia, and oxygen loss do not cause NDEs, that's been debunked moons ago

You still haven't answered my question. Nor have you ruled out the myriad other organic causes of NDEs. You haven't even ruled out hypoxia.

There is actually a paper I found which debunked hypoxia too I'll try to find it. If you found out NDEs were not caused by oxygen loss or hypoxia, would you believe they are real experiences? How about if you found out that even ketamine didn't cause it? Would you then believe it?

Of course not. Here's why:
1. NDEs remain anecdotal narratives, which are not evidence. If hundreds of people reported dreams with similar characteristics, that doesn't mean they actually experienced the events in their dreams. And that has happened. Falling is a common dream theme, but no one believes it was a real experience when they wake from such a dream.
2. Even if you rule out hypoxia and ketamine, there are still a myriad possible causes of neurological dysfunction, especially during trauma, which is a shock to the mind-body system. I've consistently said that the NDE dreamlets don't have just one cause.

Plus, I highly doubt that the paper to which you refer truly did debunk hypoxia, since it's a proven scientific fact that hypoxia causes the types of vivid dreamlets described in NDEs. The G-LOC study is proof of that. So, hypoxia is one proven cause of NDE dreamlets. Still, I am interested in reading that paper, though I doubt it's conclusion is scientifically-based, since none of the conclusions related to NDEs are. For example, you continue to make the claim that NDE dreamlets occur during periods of no brain activity, despite proof that EEGs don't detect all brain activity, and despite proof that a lack of pupillary reaction is not indicative of brain death. You can't dismiss the science.


Here is a paper which debunks GM worlee, an anesthesiologist who is a skeptic of NDEs and uses oxygen theory, heat massage etc.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=w ... UlxWHEy4-w

Here is the one which debunks oxygen and hypoxia

http://skeptiko.com/critique-of-skeptics-guide-249/

If you mostly want to see oxygen and hypoxia debunked check the second link.

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:36 am

Kamil wrote:Here is the one which debunks oxygen and hypoxia
http://skeptiko.com/critique-of-skeptics-guide-249/
As I expected, it doesn't debunk hypoxia causing NDEs at all. Instead, it is a careful cherry-picking of scientific facts by an extremely biased author. These are the reasons why Mr. Wood's essay fails to debunk hypoxia as one cause of NDEs:

1. Under "general symptoms of oxygen deprivation," Mr. Wood has deliberately omitted "cognitive disturbances," even though his Wikipedia source names it as a symptom.

2. Under "oxygen deprivation in pilots," Mr. Wood has deliberately omitted the entire catalog of NDE-like dreamlets experienced by pilots during G-LOC events, as documented by Dr. Winnery.

3. Mr. Wood compares "oxygen deprivation in patients with lung disease" to NDEs, failing to mention that such blood oxygen levels are completely different from cerebral hypoxia, so his comparison is irrelevant. It's a red herring.

4. Mr. Wood's inclusion of "long-term effects of oxygen deprivation to the brain" is also a red herring, and shows he that fails to understand that there are four types of cerebral hypoxia. Since they're described in the Wikipedia article, the link for which he provides, it's clear that he didn't even read that article.

5. Mr. Wood discards the ketamine theory based on his claim that the NDE experience is uniformly homogenous among those who have experienced it...and that is a bald-faced lie. Therefore, his argument fails.

6. Mr. Wood's argument about brain stimulation inducing NDEs hinges on him making assumptions about the method of brain stimulation, which he himself admits. So, he has not even researched this scientific claim sufficiently enough to be able to debunk it.

7. I've never even heard "seizure can induce NDEs." What is a scientific fact is that the hippocampus and the amygdala can initiate complex hallucinations without the involvement of the cerebral cortex, meaning that the patient's EEG can be flat while deep brain activity is causing hallucinations. The study that proved this involved patients with epilepsy, but no one concluded that epileptic seizures cause NDEs. Mr. Wood gets a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions.

8. Mr. Wood's claim that NDEs are exactly the same, regardless of culture, is another bald-faced lie, proven by the plethora of anecdotal narrative.

And that's all the time I'm going to waste on the essay that you think debunks hypoxia. It's not evidence. It's not even a logical argument. Mr. Wood misuses scientific data, deliberately omitting factual data that counters what he wants to prove, and including irrelevant data that he feels proves his point. His essay is nonsense. Sorry.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:46 am

Kamil wrote:Here is the one which debunks oxygen and hypoxia

http://skeptiko.com/critique-of-skeptics-guide-249/
Thanks Kamil. That essay from a skeptiko listener, Keith Wood, confirms that Long didn't measure oxygen levels at the time of the NDE and therefore we can dismiss Jeffrey Long flawed claims that NDEs are evidence for the afterlife.

This now ends your insane religious claim that people only see Jesus during NDEs and therefore NDEs are evidence that Jesus is real.
:lol:

Do you now also agree that Hindus can also have visions and are also humans?
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:33 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:Here is the one which debunks oxygen and hypoxia
http://skeptiko.com/critique-of-skeptics-guide-249/
As I expected, it doesn't debunk hypoxia causing NDEs at all. Instead, it is a careful cherry-picking of scientific facts by an extremely biased author. These are the reasons why Mr. Wood's essay fails to debunk hypoxia as one cause of NDEs:

1. Under "general symptoms of oxygen deprivation," Mr. Wood has deliberately omitted "cognitive disturbances," even though his Wikipedia source names it as a symptom.

2. Under "oxygen deprivation in pilots," Mr. Wood has deliberately omitted the entire catalog of NDE-like dreamlets experienced by pilots during G-LOC events, as documented by Dr. Winnery.

3. Mr. Wood compares "oxygen deprivation in patients with lung disease" to NDEs, failing to mention that such blood oxygen levels are completely different from cerebral hypoxia, so his comparison is irrelevant. It's a red herring.

4. Mr. Wood's inclusion of "long-term effects of oxygen deprivation to the brain" is also a red herring, and shows he that fails to understand that there are four types of cerebral hypoxia. Since they're described in the Wikipedia article, the link for which he provides, it's clear that he didn't even read that article.

5. Mr. Wood discards the ketamine theory based on his claim that the NDE experience is uniformly homogenous among those who have experienced it...and that is a bald-faced lie. Therefore, his argument fails.

6. Mr. Wood's argument about brain stimulation inducing NDEs hinges on him making assumptions about the method of brain stimulation, which he himself admits. So, he has not even researched this scientific claim sufficiently enough to be able to debunk it.

7. I've never even heard "seizure can induce NDEs." What is a scientific fact is that the hippocampus and the amygdala can initiate complex hallucinations without the involvement of the cerebral cortex, meaning that the patient's EEG can be flat while deep brain activity is causing hallucinations. The study that proved this involved patients with epilepsy, but no one concluded that epileptic seizures cause NDEs. Mr. Wood gets a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions.

8. Mr. Wood's claim that NDEs are exactly the same, regardless of culture, is another bald-faced lie, proven by the plethora of anecdotal narrative.

And that's all the time I'm going to waste on the essay that you think debunks hypoxia. It's not evidence. It's not even a logical argument. Mr. Wood misuses scientific data, deliberately omitting factual data that counters what he wants to prove, and including irrelevant data that he feels proves his point. His essay is nonsense. Sorry.


Number 7, where is this study? If I can have proof that the brain is still alive, even under flat EEG, I will take back everything I said about NDEs, and although I cannot fully dismiss them, I will be more skeptical that they are real.

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Kamil's hypothesis for NDEs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:05 pm

Kamil, you are now wasting our time.

You came to this forum to claim that Jesus was real because people having NDEs only saw Jesus. You now admit you were wrong as obviously Hindus, Muslims and atheists also have visions.

Your debunked religious claim was predicated on you proving the scientific experiments that already explain why people feel they were having NDEs were void. You have not done that. You are simply clutching at straws. You told direct lies about Jeffrey Long's "research"


What is your alternative hypothesis?
As you are on a science based forum you must now set out your alternative hypothesis for NDEs.

Do you claim Budda, Jesus, Allah and Vishnu are all real gods and visit people during NDEs? Can you set out the exact physics behind that for us as your working hypothesis?

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Re: Kamil's hypothesis for NDEs

Postby Kamil » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:18 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Kamil, you are now wasting our time.

You came to this forum to claim that Jesus was real because people having NDEs only saw Jesus. You now admit you were wrong as obviously Hindus, Muslims and atheists also have visions.

Your debunked religious claim was predicated on you proving the scientific experiments that already explain why people feel they were having NDEs were void. You have not done that. You are simply clutching at straws. You told direct lies about Jeffrey Long's "research"


What is your alternative hypothesis?
As you are on a science based forum you must now set out your alternative hypothesis for NDEs.

Do you claim Budda, Jesus, Allah and Vishnu are all real gods and visit people during NDEs? Can you set out the exact physics behind that for us as your working hypothesis?


I haven't ever seen any recorded NDEs of anything that was Buddha, Muhammad, or other prominent figures in other faiths. There are quite a few people claiming they saw Jesus, but do you have examples of people seeing other gods?

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Re: Kamil's hypothesis for NDEs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:28 pm

Kamil wrote: I haven't ever seen any recorded NDEs of anything that was Buddha, Muhammad, or other prominent figures in other faiths. There are quite a few people claiming they saw Jesus, but do you have examples of people seeing other gods?


So let's be clear on your claim........
I have many NDE claims to present to you. However, before I do that I wan't you to clearly say what your claim is.

Is your claim: That Jesus, God and the afterlife is real because people see Jesus in NDEs, but not other gods or things?

Is this correct? If it is not correct, what is your exact claim?

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Re: Kamil's hypothesis for NDEs

Postby Kamil » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:43 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kamil wrote: I haven't ever seen any recorded NDEs of anything that was Buddha, Muhammad, or other prominent figures in other faiths. There are quite a few people claiming they saw Jesus, but do you have examples of people seeing other gods?


So let's be clear on your claim........
I have many NDE claims to present to you. However, before I do that I wan't you to clearly say what your claim is.

Is your claim: That Jesus, God and the afterlife is real because people see Jesus in NDEs, but not other gods or things?

Is this correct? If it is not correct, what is your exact claim?


my claim is that there are reports of NDEs (many) where people claim they saw Jesus. I am yet to find any of people mentioning Muhammad, or Vishnu, or other deities. Therefore, I believe Jesus is more real than other deities.

If you can actually find examples of other gods being found, please show me.

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Re: Kamil's hypothesis for NDEs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:01 am

Kamil wrote: my claim is that there are reports of NDEs (many) where people claim they saw Jesus. I am yet to find any of people mentioning Muhammad, or Vishnu, or other deities. Therefore, I believe Jesus is more real than other deities.

Sooooo.......you think Jesus is more real that Allah or Vishnu because Jesus appears in more NDEs?

What is your working hypothesis? Does Jesus send magical particles to to each brain neuron that magically makes all those neurones work together to force an image of Jesus into a person's mind?

If the person is having a near death experience, why doesn't Jesus simply make the person well again, rather than screw around with their brains?
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Re: Kamil's hypothesis for NDEs

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:06 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kamil wrote: my claim is that there are reports of NDEs (many) where people claim they saw Jesus. I am yet to find any of people mentioning Muhammad, or Vishnu, or other deities. Therefore, I believe Jesus is more real than other deities.

Sooooo.......you think Jesus is more real that Allah or Vishnu because Jesus appears in more NDEs?

What is your working hypothesis? Does Jesus send magical particles to to each brain neuron that magically makes all those neurones work together to force an image of Jesus into a person's mind?

If the person is having a near death experience, why doesn't Jesus simply make the person well again, rather than screw around with their brains?
little-match-girl-english-school.jpg


I've seen many NDEs where a person will have been a bad person, they have an NDE and then they see hell and Jesus rescues them after they call for him, and then he tells them to go back to life and be a better person. On the internet, you can even find NDEs of Muslims meeting Jesus instead of Muhammad or even one case of a Hindu meeting Jesus. These are rare, but they can occur. I just don't get how Jesus shows up so much in comparison to others. Can you show me examples of other faiths seeing other deities?

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:24 am

Kamil wrote:
LunaNik wrote:7. I've never even heard "seizure can induce NDEs." What is a scientific fact is that the hippocampus and the amygdala can initiate complex hallucinations without the involvement of the cerebral cortex, meaning that the patient's EEG can be flat while deep brain activity is causing hallucinations. The study that proved this involved patients with epilepsy, but no one concluded that epileptic seizures cause NDEs. Mr. Wood gets a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions.
Kamil wrote:Number 7, where is this study? If I can have proof that the brain is still alive, even under flat EEG, I will take back everything I said about NDEs, and although I cannot fully dismiss them, I will be more skeptical that they are real.

Here and here. I'll look forward to your post taking back every single thing you said about NDEs.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:30 am

LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:
LunaNik wrote:7. I've never even heard "seizure can induce NDEs." What is a scientific fact is that the hippocampus and the amygdala can initiate complex hallucinations without the involvement of the cerebral cortex, meaning that the patient's EEG can be flat while deep brain activity is causing hallucinations. The study that proved this involved patients with epilepsy, but no one concluded that epileptic seizures cause NDEs. Mr. Wood gets a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions.
Kamil wrote:Number 7, where is this study? If I can have proof that the brain is still alive, even under flat EEG, I will take back everything I said about NDEs, and although I cannot fully dismiss them, I will be more skeptical that they are real.

Here and here. I'll look forward to your post taking back every single thing you said about NDEs.


wow, I guess that does confirm that the brain does have activity, even when the EEG appears to be flat. Let me ask you, what do you think about neuroscientists like Eben Alexander who think that the brain can't create these experiences, and that it cannot be hallucinations? (I'm not disagreeing with you at all i just want to know your opinion on people like that)

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Kamil's hypothesis for Jesus & NDEs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:57 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Sooooo.......you think Jesus is more real that Allah, Buddha or Vishnu because Jesus appears in more NDEs?

What is your working hypothesis? Does Jesus send magical particles to to each brain neuron that magically makes all those neurones work together to force an image of Jesus into a person's mind?

If the person is having a near death experience, why doesn't Jesus simply make the person well again, rather than screw around with their brains?
Kamil wrote: I've seen many NDEs where a person will have been a bad person, they have an NDE and then they see hell and Jesus rescues them after they call for him, and then he tells them to go back to life and be a better person.


That's not answering my question.
1) What is your theory as to how does Jesus make brain cells "see Jesus" in NDEs? Is this through "magic" or through science?


2) Why doesn't Jesus simply make the people who are near death better again?

3) If you were to find that more people had visions of Buddha than Jesus, would you then say Buddha is more real than Jesus? :D
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Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:16 am

Kamil wrote:Let me ask you, what do you think about neuroscientists like Eben Alexander who think that the brain can't create these experiences, and that it cannot be hallucinations?

Eban Alexander was debunked as making up facts and already on fraud charges when he put out his religious book "Proof of Heaven" :D
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/in ... e-prophet/

The 'Proof of Heaven' Author Has Now Been Thoroughly Debunked by Science
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ed/313681/

Poof of Heaven: Eben Alexander’s Truth Problem
https://tragicfarce.com/2013/07/09/poof ... h-problem/

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:51 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kamil wrote:Let me ask you, what do you think about neuroscientists like Eben Alexander who think that the brain can't create these experiences, and that it cannot be hallucinations?

Eban Alexander was debunked as making up facts and already on fraud charges when he put out his religious book "Proof of Heaven" :D
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/in ... e-prophet/

The 'Proof of Heaven' Author Has Now Been Thoroughly Debunked by Science
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ed/313681/

Poof of Heaven: Eben Alexander’s Truth Problem
https://tragicfarce.com/2013/07/09/poof ... h-problem/


Nope, I believe the soul leaves the body if NDEs are in fact true.

Anyways, I saw your rebuttal for Eben Alexander, and that esquire by Luke Dittrich has been debunked:
http://iands.org/ndes/more-info/ndes-in ... facts.html

also, you haven't provided examples of other faiths and their NDEs

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:53 am

I love how all your sources are using Esquire
:D

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:03 am

Kamil wrote: Nope, I believe the soul leaves the body if NDEs are in fact true.
1) Can you define a soul for me? Is it electromagnetic? Can a soul see things although it doesn't have any eyes to focus light? :D

2) Do dogs have souls? No? What about homo erectus? No? What about Neanderthals? :D


Kamil wrote:Anyways, I saw your rebuttal for Eben Alexander, and that esquire by Luke Dittrich has been debunked
No it hasn't. Alexander was de-registered for malpractice. Yes or No?


Kamil wrote:also, you haven't provided examples of other faiths and their NDEs
I am waiting for you to answer my question. If there are more visions of Buddha than Jesus, will you then say Buddha is more real than Jesus, using your own argument? :lol:

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:05 am

Kamil wrote:I love how all your sources are using Esquire
There is only one Esquire debunking article. How many do you think there are?

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:14 am

Kamil? I have one last question for you.

If Christians have different looking visions of Angels or Jesus or Heaven or God, how do we know which one is real?

Shouldn't they all see exactly the same Jesus if it really is Jesus, as you claim?
:lol:

You see, when Mohammad had a vision of Jesus, he said Jesus had red hair. :D

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Gord » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:41 am

Kamil wrote:Nope, I believe the soul leaves the body if NDEs are in fact true.

Um, if NDEs are in fact "true", then the soul leaves the body is true by definition.

also, you haven't provided examples of other faiths and their NDEs

Does that matter?

Jeez, fine.

Hindu: http://www.near-death.com/religion/hinduism.html
Buddhist: https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comme ... xperience/
Islam: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments ... ear_death/
(Note that one theory suggests Muslims who experience NDEs might be reluctant to talk about them, because they go against the teachings of Islam in which the dead remain so until the Day of Judgement.)
Even atheists (no faith): https://www.quora.com/Has-a-near-death- ... y-atheists
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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Gord » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:42 am

*nom nom nom nom nom*

I just ATE this post.

:ham:
Last edited by Gord on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:27 pm

Kamil wrote:also, you haven't provided examples of other faiths and their NDEs
I am waiting for you to answer my question. If there are more visions of Buddha than Jesus, will you then say Buddha is more real than Jesus, using your own argument? :lol:[/quote]

if I was shown that, then yes it would either stand to reason that or it would prove that NDEs are BS because everyone should see the same thing

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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Gord » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:45 pm

Kamil wrote:
Kamil wrote:also, you haven't provided examples of other faiths and their NDEs

I am waiting for you to answer my question. If there are more visions of Buddha than Jesus, will you then say Buddha is more real than Jesus, using your own argument? :lol:

if I was shown that, then yes it would either stand to reason that or it would prove that NDEs are BS because everyone should see the same thing

:facepalm:

Are you a Poe?
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:07 pm

Kamil wrote:
LunaNik wrote:Here and here. I'll look forward to your post taking back every single thing you said about NDEs.
wow, I guess that does confirm that the brain does have activity, even when the EEG appears to be flat. Let me ask you, what do you think about neuroscientists like Eben Alexander who think that the brain can't create these experiences, and that it cannot be hallucinations? (I'm not disagreeing with you at all i just want to know your opinion on people like that)
I hadn’t heard of Alexander, so I did some research on his background and his claims. My conclusion is that Alexander realized his medical career would be coming to an end, and took advantage of his illness to become a con man in order to create a financially lucrative future for himself.

In his book, he claims that he slipped into a coma as a natural result of bacterial meningitis, and that he had no higher brain activity when he experienced his NDE. But that’s a blatant lie. His coma was medically-induced, and he was brought out of it multiple times, conscious and delirious…and experiencing hallucinations.

Addressing the subject of evidence, Alexander’s version is anecdotal. Logically, how can he testify to events that occurred while he was non compos mentis, deathly ill with an infection in his brain? OTOH, the testimony of his physicians is documented medical fact.

Dr. Laura Potter was on duty in the ER of Lynchburg General Hospital on the morning of November 10, 2008, when the EMTs brought Alexander in.

"We couldn't work with Eben at all, we couldn't get vital signs, he just was not able to comply. So I had to make the decision to just place him in a chemically induced coma. Really for his own safety, until we could treat him. And so I did.... I put him to sleep, if you will, and put him on life support."

After Alexander was taken from the ER to the ICU, Potter says, the doctors there administered anesthetics that kept him in the coma. The next day, she went to visit him.

"And of course he was still in an induced coma," she says. "On ventilator support. They tried to let him wake up and see what he would do, but he was in exactly the same agitated state. Even if they tried to ease up, a little bit even, on the sedation. In fact, for days, every time they would try to wean his sedation—just thrashing, trying to scream, and grabbing at his tube."

In Proof of Heaven, Alexander writes that he spent seven days in "a coma caused by a rare case of E. coli bacterial meningitis." There is no indication in the book that it was Laura Potter, and not bacterial meningitis, that induced his coma, or that the physicians in the ICU maintained his coma in the days that followed through the use of anesthetics. Alexander also writes that during his week in the ICU he was present "in body alone," that the bacterial assault had left him with an "all-but-destroyed brain." He notes that by conventional scientific understanding, "if you don't have a working brain, you can't be conscious," and a key point of his argument for the reality of the realms he claims to have visited is that his memories could not have been hallucinations, since he didn't possess a brain capable of creating even a hallucinatory conscious experience.

I ask Potter whether the manic, agitated state that Alexander exhibited whenever they weaned him off his anesthetics during his first days of coma would meet her definition of conscious.

"Yes," she says. "Conscious but delirious." LINK


Additionally, while Alexander may have been a reputable neurologist at one time, he was terminated from multiple hospitals, has a record of botched operations, was the subject of multiple malpractice suits, and was caught falsifying medical records. He'd already left Massachusetts after losing positions at several prestigious hospitals, and moved to Virginia and lost several positions there, all as a result of his incompetence or deliberate criminal actions. Not exactly a credible witness.

It sounds to me like Alexander knew his medical career was coming to an end and decided to make up his NDE experience as fodder for a new career. People are gullible, and many would buy into the story of a man of science suddenly converting as the result of a NDE. Alexander knew he had the neurological knowledge to con the public into buying his story, and that it would be a lucrative pursuit for him, given that his actions had dead-ended his medical career.
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Re: Kamil's claim Jesus in NDEs proves Jesus is real

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:14 pm

Kamil wrote:Anyways, I saw your rebuttal for Eben Alexander, and that esquire by Luke Dittrich has been debunked:
http://iands.org/ndes/more-info/ndes-in ... facts.html
You're still not understanding the requirements for evidence. This article that you've posted uses anecdotal narrative in an attempt to debunk scientific fact. It doesn't work that way, Kamil!

You can line up a thousand people to testify that the Earth is flat. That does not debunk the scientific facts that prove that the Earth is round. Your article claims to debunk the rainbow claim, for example. A meteorologist stated that the climatological conditions on that day and time made a rainbow impossible. Your article claims to debunk the science by offering two witnesses who saw the rainbow. That's not debunking!!! Witnesses can lie; science can not.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:20 pm

Ummmm....science at best is a process. Test and confirm. To think or say that Science cannot lie misses the entire import of "science." There is no such "thing" as science. It has no values and does not talk. People......follow the tenets/protocols of science.

Really a whole lot more dignified than being adamant.
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ummmm....science at best is a process. Test and confirm. To think or say that Science cannot lie misses the entire import of "science." There is no such "thing" as science. It has no values and does not talk. People......follow the tenets/protocols of science.

Really a whole lot more dignified than being adamant.


Here is a quote from a doctor present during all of this:

"Dr. Potter expressed to the family that she had been misrepresented and that her words were taken out of context by Luke Dittrich and that he had led her to say certain things.
The question that Luke Dittrich says he posed to her I don’t think is a question he actually posed to her when she said, “Yes, conscious but delirious.” It would be very interesting to see what exactly happened in that interview and just understand what she was responding to."

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:42 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ummmm....science at best is a process. Test and confirm. To think or say that Science cannot lie misses the entire import of "science." There is no such "thing" as science. It has no values and does not talk. People......follow the tenets/protocols of science.
Yes, of course. Thank you for being the voice of reason, bobbo. In my frustration, I misspoke.

My point was that Kamil continues to insist that anecdotal narrative constitutes scientific evidence, and it doesn't. Testimony claiming to have witnessed an event where pi equalled three doesn't debunk the fact that pi equals 3.1415... But Kamil thinks it does.

Speaking to your "science is a process" statement, if our universe somehow changed, and it was discovered that pi now equalled three, rational people would not cling to the old fact in the face of new evidence. Being rational includes the idea that new factual evidence is incorporated into our thinking.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:01 pm

Kamil, Eben Alexander rode the wave of a surge of lucrative evangelical NDE stories invented to fleece gullible believers and shop for new ones. He has been thoroughly debunked and his constant resurrection is becoming tedious.
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:49 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Kamil, Eben Alexander rode the wave of a surge of lucrative evangelical NDE stories invented to fleece gullible believers and shop for new ones. He has been thoroughly debunked and his constant resurrection is becoming tedious.


what do you think of people like Howard Storm then who still have tears every time they tell their stories?

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:06 pm

Overly emotional? Good actor? Repetition of his fantasies solidified the experience in his mind?
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:16 pm

Kamil wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Kamil, Eben Alexander rode the wave of a surge of lucrative evangelical NDE stories invented to fleece gullible believers and shop for new ones. He has been thoroughly debunked and his constant resurrection is becoming tedious.


what do you think of people like Howard Storm then who still have tears every time they tell their stories?

I have a high level of empathy. The other night, Trevor Noah's presentation of the Philando Castile story, which included the original dashcam video from the officer's cruiser, brought me to tears. I'll bet that I could keep that story and video in my mind for emotional motivation, then spin a complete fabrication of a horrifying personal experience...and you would believe me.

I wouldn't do that, because I'm honest. Con artists aren't, and they're incredibly good at what they do.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:24 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Kamil, Eben Alexander rode the wave of a surge of lucrative evangelical NDE stories invented to fleece gullible believers and shop for new ones. He has been thoroughly debunked and his constant resurrection is becoming tedious.


what do you think of people like Howard Storm then who still have tears every time they tell their stories?

I have a high level of empathy. The other night, Trevor Noah's presentation of the Philando Castile story, which included the original dashcam video from the officer's cruiser, brought me to tears. I'll bet that I could keep that story and video in my mind for emotional motivation, then spin a complete fabrication of a horrifying personal experience...and you would believe me.

I wouldn't do that, because I'm honest. Con artists aren't, and they're incredibly good at what they do.


But Howard storm didn't lie he was an atheist and after that NDE he where he went to hell he became a reverand. He is now totally deep into the faith. Also, even if it's true NDEs are not real, I still don't think most people are intentionally lying. If it were to be the brain at work, then I would say the brain just does a very good job of creating these experiences. I don't think most people intentionally fabricate

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:42 pm

Kamil wrote:But Howard storm didn't lie
How would you know?

Kamil wrote:he was an atheist and after that NDE he where he went to hell he became a reverand.
All that proves is that he believed his hallucination more than his common sense.

Kamil wrote:If it were to be the brain at work, then I would say the brain just does a very good job of creating these experiences.
It sure does. How many dreams have you had that seemed completely realistic...until you woke up?

Kamil wrote:I don't think most people intentionally fabricate
You have more faith in the human race than I do. People lie all the time, for any number of reasons.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:12 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Kamil wrote:But Howard storm didn't lie
How would you know?

Kamil wrote:he was an atheist and after that NDE he where he went to hell he became a reverand.
All that proves is that he believed his hallucination more than his common sense.

Kamil wrote:If it were to be the brain at work, then I would say the brain just does a very good job of creating these experiences.
It sure does. How many dreams have you had that seemed completely realistic...until you woke up?

Kamil wrote:I don't think most people intentionally fabricate
You have more faith in the human race than I do. People lie all the time, for any number of reasons.

Here is a question. For you. If you found out every single one of the millions of NDEs ever recorded was not an intnentional fabrication, would you still not believe it?

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Re: Skeptics, proof Jesus is the truth, comments?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:42 pm

Kamil wrote:Here is a question. For you. If you found out every single one of the millions of NDEs ever recorded was not an intnentional fabrication, would you still not believe it?
I would only believe that the person was relating what they experienced, but I would not believe that the experience was anything more than a hallucination. I'm sure quite a few people who have experienced NDEs really believe what they're saying. That doesn't matter, Kamil. The fact that people believe their delusions doesn't make those delusions real.

I have a friend who's schizophrenic. Without his medications, he hears voices. Those voices are very real to him when he experiences them. Does that mean the voices are actually real? That there are somehow invisible beings talking to him? Of course not.

You certainly must remember dreams and nightmares you've had. Are they real experiences? Would you ever claim that they're real? No, because people would think you're insane. I just had a dream the other night that an ex-boyfriend had bought me a brand new truck. It was an incredibly vivid and realistic dream. Obviously, there wasn't a brand new truck in my driveway when I woke up. Nor would I base my thoughts, words, and actions on the dream experience.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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