Mediums and spiritualism

PSI, Mediums, Ghosts, UFOs, Things That Go Bump In The Night
Matthew Ellard
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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:08 am

Davis1 wrote: In fact, I'm going into this with an agenda of proving them wrong.
Fair enough. You are proposing to follow the scientific method, in that you are setting out your hypothesis for "spirits" and then trying to falsify that same hypothesis, through experimentation and if falsified you will adjust and set out a new hypothesis.

What is your current working hypothesis for spirits?


Davis1 wrote:But I don't know how to argue against mediumship or things like that.
You don't have to argue against them, in the same way you don't have to wonder if Sherlock Holmes really solved that case or how does Superman shave using normal Earth razors? Mediums are not presenting any coherent explanation for their claims and so you don't have to worry about them. They are simply providing a form of entertainment.

Davis1 wrote:But how do you explain mediums who truly believe they are real?
Basic psychology, generally combined with low education or a need to make money. :D

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby gorgeous » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:27 am

mediums are real...so is reincarnation...it was taken out of the bible to manipulate the public... https://youtu.be/1sGpxUIhSkk
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:31 am

Aren't you getting tired of your own inane babbling, georgie? :roll:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:48 am

Hi, Davis1. Welcome to SSF.

I read the Wiki page on Flowerdew and have to say that would be perhaps the only case I ever heard of that supposedly gave some useful information. And that gets me to a point about mediumship and its disseminated "knowledge" - there's nothing useful in it (besides the occasional comfort to those who hope to continue "living" with their departed loved ones). It's the same as with so-called miracles. The "big ones" happened long ago and Cheezus on toast just isn't cutting it. :-P

As Matthew said, it's a form of entertainment. And income to some unscrupulous creatures.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:54 am

gorgeous wrote:mediums are real...so is reincarnation...it was taken out of the bible to manipulate the public..
Hello Davis1. Here is a classical example of someone who believes in mediums. Let's do a couple basic tests and watch the claim collapse. Please feel free to join in. :D

Gorgeous?
1) What evidence do you have that reincarnation was first in the Bible before being removed?
2) What exact verse in the Old Testament or New Testament was that?
3) How could someone edit out words of the Old Testament (Torah) if it was an oral (spoken) history until 150BC?
4) Which Roman deleted all references to reincarnation in the New Testament between 80AD and 120AD?

Davis1, may I inform you that Gorgeous is so stupid that he also thinks still photographs are evidence of suspended animation. That will give you an indication of how very low IQs and a belief in spirits are often found together.
:D

Roman Funeral Practices / Spirits and Effigies
At a Roman funeral procession, an actor was hired to wear the clothes of the deceased and wear a mask of the deceased and to walk in the procession stating the good works of the deceased. This person was called the same root words that evolved into "spirit" and "effigy" in modern languages. The problem is that the word's meaning dropped the reference to the actors and we started to have just spirits. Modern ghost stories are just corrupted versions of quite ordinary historical activities.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=effigy
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?all ... rch=spirit

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:59 am

OFFTOPIC: Members might not wish to quote the new user (in full). Davis1 requested his post to be deleted.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:19 am

Well, that escalated quickly.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:44 am

Davis1 wrote:. Although I'd be curious to hear thoughts on the reincarnation story or the pendulum thing before I delete it
The woman holding the pendulum over a Ouija Board and asking dead people's spirits questions is simply self deceiving rubbish. That's why children play with Ouija boards.

Try set out a paranormal hypothesis for this, that makes any sense. Young dead johnny's spirit is immaterial and can pass through walls but, simultaneously, in direct conflict can move a physical pendulum? How can young Johnny's dead spirit see letters on the Qiija board anyway, if a spirit has no eyes to focus light waves? You cannot set out any hypothesis for a paranormal explanation that makes any sense.

On the other hand, the scientific view states the woman is making the pendulum move herself. We can see her doing it. We can measure it. We can reproduce that.

Therefore what is the more probable explanation?
:lol:

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:51 am

Davis1 wrote: When it comes to it being a case that gives useful information, would you mark it as extreme coincidence or something more shady going on?
I suggest you read up on "Cold Reading"

"Cold Reading" is a centuries old fairground technique that works on human psychology. A Gypsie fortune teller mixes vague statements, that can apply to anyone, with a handful of specific claims, like "the car was blue" or "the car was red". The victim or patsy only remembers the right answer and then also thinks the vague statements were also specific.

You will note it is very hard to find a complete recording of cold reading session because the scammers don't want you to hear all the questions that were misses.
:D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Poodle » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:09 am

Deleted.
Last edited by Poodle on Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Gord » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:43 am

Poodle wrote:I've saved the opening post to prevent the thread becoming meaningless ...

What have you got against meaningless threads?? :nyaah:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Pyrrho » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:47 am

The user felt that it was important to them to remove their user account and their posts. If you must retain that copy of the OP, please wrap it in <spoiler> tags.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Poodle » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:36 pm

I've deleted it. I thought it may have been a sneaky try-on, but the OP really did go. So ...

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:54 am

Pyrrho wrote:The user felt that it was important to them to remove their user account and their posts.

I think you are being too kind and forgiving to these "drive by" posters. I would argue that they know they are posting on a science based skeptic forum and are seeking responses. I would argue that that is a commitment, if not a contract, between them and the members of the forum who respond, to leave their opening posts on display, so other people don't do the same.

Anyhow, if he really did need it removed and it doesn't hurt anyone, I guess it doesn't really matter.
:D

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:16 am

"All posts matter!"
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:50 am

Spiritualism is one of the three religions I know for sure were started by swindlers. The Bell sisters started it all, and the last one to die, in her old age, admitted everything, including telling people how they achieved their special effects. But a very lucrative con job.

The other two are Mormonism, and Scientology.
However, I am pretty sure that Islam began that way, also. Just not yet 100%.

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Re: Mediums and spiritualism

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:57 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:But a very lucrative con job.
"Small medium at large. Film at 11."
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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