Souls and afterlife seem to be real

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Gord » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:40 am

Kamil wrote:...all while her brain was flatlined.

Brains don't "flatline", that's the heart.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Poodle » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:59 am

Here are the possible reasons for a 'flatlined' EEG ...
a) Whoever placed the electrodes is incompetent.
b) The EEG apparatus isn't working.
c) The subject is dead.
In the entire recorded history of medicine, no one has ever survived an electrically inactive brain.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby salomed » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:30 am

Kamil wrote:Skeptics, enlighten me



There is surprising evidence for a world beyond this, but it cannot, by definition, be proven/confirmed from within this world.

Equally, it cannot be disproven. You can see from the replies here that the dogmatists can only retort to attack, rather than reason.

And the believers only have their beliefs and experiences, but those experiences could well be internal (delusion, hallucination, etc) rather than external .

As a true skeptic it's fine to say, "I do not know". And those who are certain they know there is not an afterlife, they are simply wrong.

Enjoy the mystery and uncertainty!

The most enlightened is the most unsure;)
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:57 am

salomed wrote: ... As a true skeptic it's fine to say, "I do not know". ...


While it is true that we don`t know, we know no more when someone without evidence claims to know. I am happy to be ignorant of what isn`t known because there is no evidence for it - and obtain great satisfaction when I learn something new because evidence has been found.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:17 pm

Wisdom: Knowing what you know.... and what you don't know. The bobbo note: and having your thumb on the latter.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Poodle » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:22 pm

salomed wrote:The most enlightened is the most unsure;)


Possibly the most glib and condescending statement you've made in this forum, Salomed.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:03 pm

salomed wrote: There is surprising evidence for a world beyond this, but it cannot, by definition, be proven/confirmed from within this world.

Equally, it cannot be disproven. You can see from the replies here that the dogmatists can only retort to attack, rather than reason.


How does evidence not lead to proof?
How can reason be applied to something that by definition cannot be proven?

I'm confused.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby gorgeous » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:45 pm

when you experience it as in nde, obe's you know...
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:33 pm

I don't but pro nde researchers claim that they measure brain activity once in awhile and it doesn't show any activity

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:36 pm

Here is an example of an EEG expert talking about how the brain does flatline

http://skeptiko.com/eeg-expert-on-near- ... xperience/

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:51 pm

Wasn't there some study/article somewhere showing that normal machines no longer pick up still ongoing activity at a certain point? However, I might be wrong about that...
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:52 pm

Ahhh.....I assume the nde is from brain activity before and after the flatline eeg? No need to get all mystical when common sense is most apparent.

fyi: flatline is NOT the definition of death. Its flatline measured twice at least 24 hours apart........among other indicia.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:04 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Wasn't there some study/article somewhere showing that normal machines no longer pick up still ongoing activity at a certain point? However, I might be wrong about that...

You mean.... that eeg's often will not pick up more basic autonomic brain or brain stem functions? I pity the poor family who agrees to the plug being pulled...........and the patient keeps on ticking along. It happens.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Wasn't there some study/article somewhere showing that normal machines no longer pick up still ongoing activity at a certain point? However, I might be wrong about that...

You mean.... that eeg's often will not pick up more basic autonomic brain or brain stem functions? I pity the poor family who agrees to the plug being pulled...........and the patient keeps on ticking along. It happens.


Why bring Trump into this thread? :lol:

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:24 pm

:laff:
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ahhh.....I assume the nde is from brain activity before and after the flatline eeg? No need to get all mystical when common sense is most apparent.

fyi: flatline is NOT the definition of death. Its flatline measured twice at least 24 hours apart........among other indicia.


Yeah but dr long has done studies where a person who has any hallucinations after their brain comes back online is totally confused and even feels pain, NDEs are not like that. Another thing, some patients make observations while their brains are said to be flat.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:34 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Wasn't there some study/article somewhere showing that normal machines no longer pick up still ongoing activity at a certain point? However, I might be wrong about that...

Yeah, and there was also the study about fMRIs where they recorded brain activity from a dead salmon: https://www.wired.com/2009/09/fmrisalmon/
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:42 am

A body and it's little helper friends isn't done working for quite some time after cardiac arrest...
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:02 am

scrmbldggs wrote:A body and it's little helper friends isn't done working for quite some time after cardiac arrest...

:nownow: It is, is it?
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:30 am

Kamil wrote: I don't but pro nde researchers claim that they measure brain activity once in awhile and it doesn't show any activity
Now you have a mega problem. You were claiming Jeffrey Long's book is evidence of souls and the after-life and you were claiming that people have NDEs with no brain activity.

You now admit that Jeffrey Long had no hypothesis, claim or any evidence for souls and the afterlife and secondly Jeffrey Long, as an endocrinologist, had no knowledge if the people he talked about were brain dead or not during their self perceived NDEs.

You have killed off your own opening post's claims.
:D

Kamil, in his opening post wrote: Skeptics, enlighten me
Next time try to actually read the book you are claiming is evidence for your religious beliefs, before making the claim.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:46 am

salomed wrote:There is surprising evidence for a world beyond this (The afterlife), but it cannot, by definition, be proven/confirmed from within this world.
What an amazing load of "woo crap". Are you already brain dead and thus have unique access to this evidence?

There is absolutely no evidence, of any sort, that there is an afterlife. It is simply a tall story from fiction and human creativity.

It gets even worse. Not one of you woosters can even write down a plausible hypothesis for what the afterlife is meant to be.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kamil wrote: I don't but pro nde researchers claim that they measure brain activity once in awhile and it doesn't show any activity
Now you have a mega problem. You were claiming Jeffrey Long's book is evidence of souls and the after-life and you were claiming that people have NDEs with no brain activity.

You now admit that Jeffrey Long had no hypothesis, claim or any evidence for souls and the afterlife and secondly Jeffrey Long, as an endocrinologist, had no knowledge if the people he talked about were brain dead or not during their self perceived NDEs.

You have killed off your own opening post's claims.
:D

Kamil, in his opening post wrote: Skeptics, enlighten me
Next time try to actually read the book you are claiming is evidence for your religious beliefs, before making the claim.


how do you know though that he didn't have access? What if he was in the hospital room when they measured brain activity? Pim Van Lommel was, and he also said the same thing, that they could not detect any brain function

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:59 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Wasn't there some study/article somewhere showing that normal machines no longer pick up still ongoing activity at a certain point? However, I might be wrong about that...

Yes, in addition to what bobbo and Gord posted, I just read two of them.

In the first, electrodes were surgically-implanted into the brain, then compared with surface electrodes. The surgically-implanted ones were spiking regularly while the surface electrodes appeared to show a dead person.

The fMRI study that Gord posted was also done on at least one person and, again, the fMRI showed clear activity in the deeper regions of the brain while the surface EEG electrodes appeared to show a dead person.

Lastly, it has been shown that interictal discharges in the hippocampus or amygdala can cause complex hallucinations without the involvement of the cerebral cortex. (I can't find a link for this one. The reference is: Gloor, P. (1986). Role of the limbic system in perception, memory, and affect: Lessons from temporal lobe epilepsy. In B. K. Doane & K. E. Livingstone (eds.). The limbic system: Functional organisation and clinical disorders. New York: Raven Press.)
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:10 am

Kamil wrote: how do you know though that he didn't have access?
He's an endocrinologist and not a anesthetist. You don't have endocrinologists in the operating theater as it is hard to fit pathology laboratories in the same room. :lol: ( My brother in law, is an endocrinologist)

Kamil wrote:..... that they could not detect any brain function
Since when did endocrinologists measure brain function? Don't you mean nuclear medicine radiologists?

Does Jeffrey Long include reports from anesthetists and nuclear medicine radiologists from the time of the NDEs? Can you scan a couple in so we can all read them together?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:50 am

what about pin van lommel? He's really smart, maybe even a bit smarter than dr long. He said he read reports.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:56 am

Kamil wrote:what about pin van lommel? He's really smart, maybe even a bit smarter than dr long. He said he read reports.

OK. So we both are dismissing the three Jeffrey Long claims now.
1) Brain dead people with no brain activity have NDEs ( He didn't see any and has no evidence)
2) That there is evidence for souls and the afterlife (No such claim or hypothesis was made by Long)
3) Endocrinologists measure brain activity.

So can you set out the full claims and evidence for Pin Van Lommel for us to review?

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Kamil wrote:what about pin van lommel? He's really smart, maybe even a bit smarter than dr long. He said he read reports.

OK. So we both are dismissing the three Jeffrey Long claims now.
1) Brain dead people with no brain activity have NDEs ( He didn't see any and has no evidence)
2) That there is evidence for souls and the afterlife (No such claim or hypothesis was made by Long)
3) Endocrinologists measure brain activity.

So can you set out the full claims and evidence for Pin Van Lommel for us to review?


Ok, I'm willing to admit that you are right about Dr. Long, here is an article written by Van Lommel which talks about some of his research. In this article, it is a rebuttal against Shermer

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/ ... ommel.html

here is an article which was IANDS published

http://iands.org/research/nde-research/ ... l=&start=3

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:38 am


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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:42 am

Kamil wrote:Ok, I'm willing to admit that you are right about Dr. Long, here is an article written by Van Lommel which talks about some of his research. In this article.
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/ ... ommel.html


No son. Nice try. I said "You set out the claim and the evidence." You didn't read Jeffrey Long's book yet claimed that was evidence, when in fact it didn't say anything of the sort.

Set out Van Lommels hypothesis, experiment and the resulting evidence AND a link

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby salomed » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:49 am

TJrandom wrote:
salomed wrote: ... As a true skeptic it's fine to say, "I do not know". ...


While it is true that we don`t know, we know no more when someone without evidence claims to know.


I am happy to be ignorant of what isn`t known because there is no evidence for it - and obtain great satisfaction when I learn something new because evidence has been found.


I think there is there is evidence confirming an afterlife, for example NDEs and past life memories.

I think there is no evidence disconfirming an afterlife that has any greater explanatory weight than initial materialist assumptions.

I am very skeptical about the existence of an afterlife, I am also very skeptical about people who are certain there isnt one.

There just is no entitlement to such certainty.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby salomed » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:09 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
salomed wrote: There is surprising evidence for a world beyond this, but it cannot, by definition, be proven/confirmed from within this world.

Equally, it cannot be disproven. You can see from the replies here that the dogmatists can only retort to attack, rather than reason.


How does evidence not lead to proof?
How can reason be applied to something that by definition cannot be proven?

I'm confused.


I shall try and ease your confusions.

Firstly, to answer your question you need to ask yourself what evidence would convince you of an afterlife? You need to define those terms and define the satisfaction conditions.

I suggest you keep your definition it abstract and general, rather than talking about heaven or consciousness. I'd go with something like, "Is there something which survives death?" or "Is there an intrinsic part of me that is not entirely located within my material form?" I dont think it really matters how you scope it in the preliminary stages.

So you frame your question.

Then you turn it into a hypothesis that has satisfaction criteria. This is such an important part of the process but one that most dogmatists will not have gone through. If you cannot say what it would take to convince you of an afterlife then you are not, in my opinion, entitled to reasonably debate or ponder the question.

Once you have defined what successful confirming evidence would look like only then can you get real world and scientific.

You might find it handy to use hoaxes as benchmarks. What I mean by this is, take a possible hoax case, and then ask yourself if this was certainly not a hoax would that evidence be enough to convince me?

The Scoles Manner investigations, for example, are a possible hoax. But, if they were not, that would convince me of an afterlife. There is so much evidence there, I would be swayed.

So to answer your question:

How does evidence not lead to proof?


Firstly, because its so hard to prove some things are not hoaxes or mistakes. I have had an NDE, to this day I do not know if I had external contact or it was just my subconscious. The little indian boy who leads people to his past life body and the murder confesses etc (A fascinating NDA that one) could just be a hoax. Yada Yada.

Secondly there is a deeper nomological aspect where it seems the laws of this universe by definition are going to be different to any other posited reality distinct from this universe and there seems to be a fundamental disjunct contained in any attempt to prove.

The best we can hope for is evidence that confirms, not prooves.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby salomed » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:13 am

Poodle wrote:
salomed wrote:The most enlightened is the most unsure;)


Possibly the most glib and condescending statement you've made in this forum, Salomed.


It is a very ancient idea, not mine.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:23 pm

salomed wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
salomed wrote: ... As a true skeptic it's fine to say, "I do not know". ...


While it is true that we don`t know, we know no more when someone without evidence claims to know.


I am happy to be ignorant of what isn`t known because there is no evidence for it - and obtain great satisfaction when I learn something new because evidence has been found.


I think there is there is evidence confirming an afterlife, for example NDEs and past life memories.

I think there is no evidence disconfirming an afterlife that has any greater explanatory weight than initial materialist assumptions.

I am very skeptical about the existence of an afterlife, I am also very skeptical about people who are certain there isnt one.

There just is no entitlement to such certainty.


There is no need to quote someone when what you are about to write, has no bearing on what they wrote.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:14 pm

salomed wrote:Firstly, to answer your question you need to ask yourself what evidence would convince you of an afterlife?

None. I have had one Woo experience: a very vivid OBE. I mark it down as some kind of brain/alcohol/hormone rush rather than what it definitely "felt" like. I KNOW that what I experience is anecdotal....as in: not to be trusted. IOW: reality is not what I might experience but rather what OTHER PEOPLE can confirm on a regular basis.

To be more directed to your suggestion, whatever the evidence was it would have to be confirmable by others, repeatable, and without any other possible explanations. So....information not known to the observer that is somehow communicated? What does anyone in the afterlife "know" anyway??? they didn't know {!#%@} during their actual lives, how could dying improve that?

I think your hoax example of people finding murder victims or whatever are often cited but never confirmed? Shirley, that can't be your best evidence? Evidence you immediately dismiss should not be considered in the first place.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
salomed wrote:Firstly, to answer your question you need to ask yourself what evidence would convince you of an afterlife?

None. I have had one Woo experience: a very vivid OBE. I mark it down as some kind of brain/alcohol/hormone rush rather than what it definitely "felt" like. I KNOW that what I experience is anecdotal....as in: not to be trusted.

A person who is rational knows his senses can be easily fooled. I've seen both a "ghost" and a "UFO." Can't explain either one, but I know there is a rational explanation. Others were with me both times, and saw exactly what I saw. As you said, anecdotal, and therefore useless as evidence.
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:09 am

salomed wrote:I think there is there is evidence confirming an afterlife, for example NDEs and past life memories.
You keep saying that and keep failing to produce one iota of evidence. Can you see your ongoing problem yet?

salomed wrote:I think there is no evidence disconfirming an afterlife
There is no evidence pixies don't exist. There is no evidence leprechauns don't exist. There is no evidence Santa Claus doesn't exist. You can't prove a negative, you idiot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosoph ... a_negative

salomed wrote: I think there is there is evidence confirming an afterlife, for example NDEs
You are twenty years out of date. Scientist have offered hypotheses for why people think they have NDEs, tested those hypotheses and can now explain NDEs.
How the body creates NDEs and OBEs. / Live Science.
https://www.livescience.com/41128-out-o ... ained.html

salomed wrote:Firstly, to answer your question you need to ask yourself what evidence would convince you of an afterlife?
No you complete moron. You first have to write down a testable hypothesis and then look for evidence to falsify or support that hypothesis. The reason you are a complete clown is that you can't even set out a description of an NDE that isn't self conflicting, and thus can't even set out a hypothesis. You are stuck in the dark ages of fuzzy thinking.

May I remind everyone that Salomed faked evidence in the Shakespeare Sonnet thread, so check everything he posts. :D

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Kamil » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:08 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
salomed wrote:I think there is there is evidence confirming an afterlife, for example NDEs and past life memories.
You keep saying that and keep failing to produce one iota of evidence. Can you see your ongoing problem yet?

salomed wrote:I think there is no evidence disconfirming an afterlife
There is no evidence pixies don't exist. There is no evidence leprechauns don't exist. There is no evidence Santa Claus doesn't exist. You can't prove a negative, you idiot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosoph ... a_negative

salomed wrote: I think there is there is evidence confirming an afterlife, for example NDEs
You are twenty years out of date. Scientist have offered hypotheses for why people think they have NDEs, tested those hypotheses and can now explain NDEs.
How the body creates NDEs and OBEs. / Live Science.
https://www.livescience.com/41128-out-o ... ained.html

salomed wrote:Firstly, to answer your question you need to ask yourself what evidence would convince you of an afterlife?
No you complete moron. You first have to write down a testable hypothesis and then look for evidence to falsify or support that hypothesis. The reason you are a complete clown is that you can't even set out a description of an NDE that isn't self conflicting, and thus can't even set out a hypothesis. You are stuck in the dark ages of fuzzy thinking.

May I remind everyone that Salomed faked evidence in the Shakespeare Sonnet thread, so check everything he posts. :D


Mathew, the thing is that although it's anecdotal, I'm sure that not everyone is intentionally making these things up. Maybe someone really did have an OBE where it felt extremely vivid, and they did pick up info that they believe they couldn't have. I'm not saying it means that they actually have souls that left their bodies, but maybe it did seem very convincing. I'll give you an anecdotal example that seems to me to be very real: it has happened to me at least 9-10 times where I will dream about a random person dying or in trouble, then I wake up the next morning only to hear that they did in fact die. Once I remember I had a dream at 3 am on a Saturday night of an old classmate of mine dying. The next day, I found out that this same classmate that I hadn't thought of in years did actually die at a club at 3 am when I had the dream. This did really happen, and it is totally an anecdote, but I'm not making it up. Even though it has happened more than just once or twice, I am ok with saying I don't know why it occured. Perhaps it was a coincidence, perhaps I dream about a lot of people that don't die so when I dream about someone who does die I subcontiously count the hits and ignore the misses. Maybe the brain has some method of picking this stuff up that we don't know about. It may be something science will unfold in the future. It could be supernatural, but I'm not willing to come to that conclusion yet.

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:48 pm

How many times did you dream about people dying and they did not?
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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:06 pm

Kamil wrote:Mathew, the thing is that although it's anecdotal
That's right. So are encounters with Jesus, Leprechauns, Pixies, aliens from Mars and the Easter Bunny. Anecdotes are not hard evidence of anything.

Kamil wrote:I'm sure that not everyone is intentionally making these things up.
Scientists agree and that's why in the 1990s, experiments started, to determine why people have these feelings. That's why we now know why people think they are experiencing NDEs.
How the Brain Creates Out-of-Body Experiences
https://www.livescience.com/41128-out-o ... ained.html

Kamil wrote: I'm not saying it means that they actually have souls that left their bodies,
No scientist has made that claim and no religious person has ever set out what that claim is, in any detail as a hypothesis. There is no need to do so. We already know the answer through science. :D

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Re: Souls and afterlife seem to be real

Postby salomed » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:19 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
salomed wrote:Firstly, to answer your question you need to ask yourself what evidence would convince you of an afterlife?


None.


There you have it. If there is no evidence that would convince you therefore you cannot possibly begin a journey of reason into the possibility.


I have had one Woo experience: a very vivid OBE. I mark it down as some kind of brain/alcohol/hormone rush rather than what it definitely "felt" like.


I imagine it probably was. But how can you be certain it wasn't?


I KNOW that what I experience is anecdotal....as in: not to be trusted.


I agree. I think experience is a very low quality kind of evidence. What we are looking for, or what I am looking for, is information. Hard Facts, baby.

This is why things like revealing past life murderers or seeing playing cards hidden in EMT rooms would have a much higher value to me.

What does anyone in the afterlife "know" anyway???


I don't know. But I can imagine information which would convince me, you say you cannot not.

I think your hoax example of people finding murder victims or whatever are often cited but never confirmed? Shirley, that can't be your best evidence? Evidence you immediately dismiss should not be considered in the first place.


Please not I have not made any claims here. I was asking what kind of evidence would convince. What caliber. You said none.

Take a case like this:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/681034-3-year-old-remembers-past-life-identifies-murderer-and-location-of-body/

Assuming for a moment that the facts are accurately described, would that not make you question the possibility of an afterlife?

It does me!:)

My all time favorite case study is the Scoles Investigations. It must be an amazing, multiple agent hoax using unknown techniques and information that to this day has not been revealed or the only other alternative I can see is there is something outside of this reality.

If you do watch it, which you should, I think, first have a read of this skeptoid debunking:

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4179

That is the best Dunning (A good benchmark, methinks) can come up with.

Then open your mind for an hour and a half and enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qSEi_sfaSU
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