Ancient Aliens

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:34 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:You can find nitpicky little anomalies in some of the eyewitness testimony, contradictions, physically impossible occurrences and whatnot but that's all you got. .


Yes, but that is all I have to do. The burden of proof in 'way out' beliefs is upon the believer. If someone thinks the UFO's are little grey men from outer space in flying saucers, then it is up to them to prove it. It is not my duty to disprove it.

This has been the case in good science ever since there was such a thing as good science. When Wegener proposed continental drift, it was a 'way out' theory, and he and his fellow believers had to gather enough strong evidence to convince the establishment. Since he was correct, it happened.

If UFOs are extraterrestrials, then the evidence will be found to prove it. So far, the evidence simply seems to show there are a hell of a lot of deluded people in this world.

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:21 am

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:You can find nitpicky little anomalies in some of the eyewitness testimony,
You haven't offered us any eyewitness testimony at all, remember?

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:So what if one eyewitness was wrong?
It means you must look for complimentary evidence, something that you have also failed to provide one example of, for UFOs



Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:So what if UFO events that we once thought were real were thoroughly investigated and determined to be rumor?
There is not one UFO case than anyone thinks is "real" and you are unable to post one example, because you know you can't find one example of a "real" UFO.
:D

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Gord » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:02 am

stormbay wrote:As our universe is part of a multidimensional reality--

Do you mean, apart from the obvious three?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Gord wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Thousands of eyewitnesses have witnessed alien space craft.

I will here and now claim outright that no one has ever witnessed an alien space craft, and invite everyone and anyone to disprove me if they can.

The problem is, no one can.


Read a book:
Flying Saucers Have Landed. (Revised Edition). Adamski, George (& Desmond Leslie).
Inside the Spaceships. Adamski, George.
Flying Saucers Farewell. Adamski, George.
Many Mansions. Adamski, George.
Flying saucers have arrived! Adler, Bill, Edited by Jay David.
Letter To The Air Force On Ufos. Adler, Bill, Edited By.
Gods Of The New Millennium. Alford, Alan F.
The Saucer Seeker. Allan, Bob.
Spacecraft From Beyond Three Dimensions. Allen, Wm Gordon.
Overlords And Olympians. Allen, Wm Gordon.
Flying Saucers From Mars. Allingham, Cedric.
New Atlantis. The Secret Of The Sphinx. Amery, Colin.
Two Nights To Remember. Anderson, Carl.
Circular Evidence. Andrews, Colin. (& Pat Delgado).
Crop Circles. The Latest Evidence. Andrews, Colin. (& Pat Delgado).
Extraterrestrials Among Us Andrews, George C.
MUFON Field Investigator's Manual Andrus, Jr. Walter H.
The Coming Of The Saucers. Arnold, Kenneth (& Ray Palmer).
The Search For Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence. Ashpole, Edward.
At Last The Chariots Message. Augustus, Petrus.
The Saucers Speak. Bailey, Alfred C. (& George Hunt Williamson).
The Occult Significance Of U.F.O'S. Baker, Douglas M., Dr
A Young Persons Guide To Ufos. Ball, Brian.
UFOs The Final Answer Barclay, David and Barclay, Therese Marie, eds.
Ufos The Final Answer. Barclay, David And Therese Marie. Edited By.
Schwa Barker, Bill
They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers. Barker, Gray.
Gray Barker'S Book Of Saucers. Barker, Gray.
The Silver Bridge. Barker, Gray.
Gray Barker At Giant Rock. Barker, Gray.
Gray Barker'S Ufo Annual 81. Barker, Gray.
M.I.B. The Secret Terror Among As. Barker, Gray.
The Year Of The Saucer. Gray Barker'S Ufo Annual -1983. Barker, Gray.
Gray Barker'S Book Of Adamski. Barker, Gray.
Flying Saucers At Edwards Afb. Barker, Gray.
The Strange Case Of Dr. M. K. Jessup. Barker, Gray. Edited By.
Gray Barker'S Ufo Annual -1983. Barker, Gray. The Year Of The Saucer.
Ultimate Encounter. Barry, Bill.
Ball Lightning and Bead Lightning Barry, James Dale
Crop Circles - Harbingers Of World Change. Bartholomew, Alick.
Close Encounters Of An Australian Kind. Basterfield, Keith.
The Fire Came By. Baxter, John and Tomas Atkins.
Ufo. Beckley, Tim with Milt Machlin.
Strange Encounters Beckley, Timothy Green
MJ-12 and the Riddle of Hangar 18 Beckley, Timothy Green.
Pleidian Science And New Age Technology. Bell, Dr Fred.
Flying Saucers And The Three Men. Bender, Albert K.
UFOs, ETS & visitors from space Berger, Melvin.
The Roswell Incident. New York: Grosset & Dunlap, 1980. Berlitz, Charles and William L. Moore
Out there : the government's secret quest for extraterrestrials Blum, Howard, 1948-
The World's Most Amazing UFO Visits Blundell, Nigel-
The Crack in the Universe Bourret, J.-C.
First Contact: The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence Bova, Ben, and Preiss, Byron, ed.
The Humanoids Bowen, Charles (ed.)
Cosmic Voyage: A Scientific Discovery of Extraterrestrials Visiting Earth Brown, Courtney
Beyond the four dimensions : reconciling physics, parapsychology, and UFOs Brunstein, Karl A.
UFO Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery. Vol. 1: Comparative Study of Abduction Reports. Bullard, Thomas Edward
UFO's and diamagnetism; correlations of UFO and scientific observations Burt, Eugene H., 1927-
Sky Crash: A Cosmic Conspiracy. Butler, Brenda, Dot Street, and Jenny Randles.
Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind: Alien Abductions, UFO's, and the Conference at MIT Byran, C.D.B
"Area 51" Viewer's Guide Campbell, Glenn
UFO's: The Fact or Fiction Files Canadeo, Anne
UFOs and related subjects : an annotated bibliography Catoe, Lynn E.
Exploring the unknown : great mysteries reexamined Cazeau, Charles J. and Stuart D. Scott, Jr.
The UFO Book: Encyclopedia of the Extraterrestrial Clark, Jerome
The Unidentified Clark, Jerome and Coleman, Loren
The UFO Encyclopedia, Volume 1: UFOs in the 1980s Clark, Jerome.
The UFO Encyclopedia, Volume 2: The Emergence of a Phenomenon: UFOs from the Beginning through 1959. Clark, Jerome.
The ancient visitors Cohen, Daniel.
UFOs Over Canada: Personal Accounts of Sightings and Close Encounters. Colombo, John Robert.
Final Report of the Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects Condon, Edward U. and Daniel S. Gillmor (ed.).
Report on Communion: An Independent Investigation of and Commentary on Whitley Strieber's Communion. Conroy, Ed
Behold A Pale Horse Cooper, Milton William
Sourcebook Project Corliss, William (ed.)
UFOs: A Manual for the Millenium Cousineau, Phil
UFOs, MJ-12, and the Government; A Report on an Investigation of UFO Crash Retrievals Crain, T. Scott, Jr., and Grant Cameron
Silent Invasion: The Shocking Discoveries of a UFO Researcher Crystall, Ellen
In Advance of the Landing: Folk Concepts of Outer Space Curran, Douglas
Flying saucers: an analysis of the Air Force Project blue book special report no. 14, including the CIA and the saucers Davidson, Leon, 1922-
Flying Saucers Close Up Dean, John W.
Celestial Teachings: The Emergence of the True Testament of Jmmanuel (Jesus). Deardorff, James W.
Circular evidence : a detailed investigation of the flattened swirled crops phenomenon Delgado, Pat.
Earthlights Devereau, Paul
The Bible and flying saucers Downing, Barry H., 1938-

None of your books have managed to counter my claim.
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"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Gord » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:08 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:You have to disprove every UFO sighting and explain what was actually seen if you want say that nobody has ever seen a UFO. Your failure to even attempt an alternate explanation is why you guys aren't taken seriously.

No, UFOs are seen every day. You can't disprove UFOs. They are an obvious fact of life.

My claim was that no one has ever seen an alien space craft. An alien space craft would NOT be a UFO.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by digress » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:51 am

Fire in the Sky is an alien abduction movie that is based on a true story!!

Dear Aliens,

It's obvious you have technologies far greater than the thick coke bottle glasses on my face that can see the glare that is your ship whizzing by in broad daylight, but you cannot fool me~! You think you surveil us? Well, think again stupid aliens because we surveil you! That's right. Don't you dare make a move. We've got thick coke bottle glasses glaring all over the planet at your sun-glare stealth technology! I'll get you with my camera lens you slimy creeps~ Then we'll see who's teh real smart life-form. You.. You BIG Dummies!!~~

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:08 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:You can find nitpicky little anomalies in some of the eyewitness testimony, contradictions, physically impossible occurrences and whatnot but that's all you got. .


Yes, but that is all I have to do. The burden of proof in 'way out' beliefs is upon the believer. If someone thinks the UFO's are little grey men from outer space in flying saucers, then it is up to them to prove it. It is not my duty to disprove it.

This has been the case in good science ever since there was such a thing as good science. When Wegener proposed continental drift, it was a 'way out' theory, and he and his fellow believers had to gather enough strong evidence to convince the establishment. Since he was correct, it happened.

If UFOs are extraterrestrials, then the evidence will be found to prove it. So far, the evidence simply seems to show there are a hell of a lot of deluded people in this world.

Really? If an eyewitness makes a tiny mistake or exaggerates a little bit, or maybe embellishes his description of a UFO with a bit of hyperbole, you will reject the whole testimony as unreliable? You're applying the fallacy of Falsus in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus. A person may give a statement that contains elements of truth and elements of fantasy. Overall that person's statement, on its own, might not be credible. But a good UFO researcher can separate the wheat from the chaff--relying on the parts of the statement that sound credible and can be corroborated with other witnesses and discarding all the fantastical parts.

And you need to define what you consider to be 'way out.' What is there about intelligent life evolving on another planet that is technologically advanced enough to transport itself to this planet that is so 'way out'?
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:14 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:You can find nitpicky little anomalies in some of the eyewitness testimony,
You haven't offered us any eyewitness testimony at all, remember?

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:So what if one eyewitness was wrong?
It means you must look for complimentary evidence, something that you have also failed to provide one example of, for UFOs



Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:So what if UFO events that we once thought were real were thoroughly investigated and determined to be rumor?
There is not one UFO case than anyone thinks is "real" and you are unable to post one example, because you know you can't find one example of a "real" UFO.
:D

Why don't you start by looking at the mufon database at: http://mufoncms.com/cgi-bin/report_hand ... earch_page? Try to find one report that you have any reason besides your own personal incredulity to believe is false.
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:18 am

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:Really? If an eyewitness makes a tiny mistake or exaggerates a little bit, or maybe embellishes his description of a UFO with a bit of hyperbole, you will reject the whole testimony as unreliable?
No Mary, you compare the witness statement with other complimentary evidence. You have been told this twenty times and you are simply too stupid to get it.

Give us your best example of a "UFO eyewitness testimony" so we can show you how this works.


Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:But a good UFO researcher can separate the wheat from the chaff--relying on the parts of the statement that sound credible and can be corroborated with other witnesses and discarding all the fantastical parts.
Can you give an example? Are you talking about Ian Ridpath's systematic destruction of UFO eyewitness statements?

You don't actually know any UFO cases do you?
:D

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Cadmusteeth » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:36 pm

I used that site that site that Mary posted up and it's more of a search engine for an archive.
I used it and and got an event (among others) that happened months ago it said this:
2015-01-17
4:45AM Glowing object came down out of the sky, and it appeared to slow down before it would have made impact with earth. Las Vegas, NV, US

Doesn't seem reliable, does it?

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:17 pm

Mary

There is no fallacy in my skepticism of those who claim UFOs are aliens. My skepticism is based on the shaky level of evidence. If the evidence were stronger, then we could have a solid basis for debate.

You should realise that lights in the sky are not a basis for belief in ET on Earth. I have seen them myself, more than once, and in each case a little thought determined the mundane cause of those lights. Solid evidence would be something more like a bit of alien DNA, or a piece of alien technology. Even a video of a space craft would be insufficient. I have seen a superb such video, taken showing an alien space craft from out of the ISS window. The only problem was that it was an exercise in video fakery set by a university that was teaching video techniques.

As an example, did you ever hear of 'foo fighters'? These were lights in the sky seen by night bomber crews during WWII, and were then explained as being experimental Nazi aircraft. More recently, researchers have found this phenomenon can be replicated by getting pilots and crew to look for extended periods at instrument lights at night and then look out a window. An after image from those lights leaves the people absolutely certain they were seeing UFOs.

Lots of researchers have studied the thousands of UFO reports, and found that they were all either readily explainable using mundane explanations, or else explainable using a blend of optical illusions and the human tendency to malleable perception and malleable memory, or else they were hoaxes.

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:07 pm

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:You can find nitpicky little anomalies in some of the eyewitness testimony,
Matthew Ellard wrote:You haven't offered us any eyewitness testimony at all, remember?


Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:So what if one eyewitness was wrong?
Matthew Ellard wrote: It means you must look for complimentary evidence, something that you have also failed to provide one example of, for UFOs



Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:Why don't you start by looking at the mufon database at: http://mufoncms.com/cgi-bin/report_hand ... earch_page? Try to find one report that you have any reason besides your own personal incredulity to believe is false.
No Mary, We all know that you haven't actually looked at the MUFON database yourself . We all know that you don't know any credible UFO cases at all and that's why you are simply unable to nominate one example to support your stupid claims.

You are simply a stupid cult follower, whose old cult has collapsed, so you are looking for a new cult to join and so you are pretending to be a "UFO expert". In reality you know nothing about the subject at all!

:D

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:59 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:You can find nitpicky little anomalies in some of the eyewitness testimony,
Matthew Ellard wrote:You haven't offered us any eyewitness testimony at all, remember?


Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:So what if one eyewitness was wrong?
Matthew Ellard wrote: It means you must look for complimentary evidence, something that you have also failed to provide one example of, for UFOs



Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:Why don't you start by looking at the mufon database at: http://mufoncms.com/cgi-bin/report_hand ... earch_page? Try to find one report that you have any reason besides your own personal incredulity to believe is false.
No Mary, We all know that you haven't actually looked at the MUFON database yourself . We all know that you don't know any credible UFO cases at all and that's why you are simply unable to nominate one example to support your stupid claims.

You are simply a stupid cult follower, whose old cult has collapsed, so you are looking for a new cult to join and so you are pretending to be a "UFO expert". In reality you know nothing about the subject at all!

:D

I wonder what our dear Matthew will say about this testimony. Here's a summary of the startling testimony of Betty and Barney Hill--two people who were actually taken aboard a UFO: "The Hills had been forced to stop their car by a landed spaceship and its crew who compelled their captives to board their vessel. Their kidnappers were small greyish-coloured men who seemed to be conducting a scientific investigation of earthlings. After performing a strange, bumbling but painful and degrading medical examination of the Hills (using technology which seems archaic now, such as the chart recorders the Hills’ vital signs were plotted on), the alien’s leader showed Betty a star map. The alien, who spoke English, told her that the map showed trade and exploration routes between stars and that our Sun and the aliens’ home star were marked on it (he pointed out roughly where he and his crew came from). The abducting aliens intended that the Hills would be unable to remember their ordeal, presumably using their advanced technology to block the couple’s memories. The dazed Hills were released and allowed to go on their way while the spaceship disappeared into the dark starry sky."

Their experience is corroborated by a man named Petro who went aboard a UFO voluntarily but was persuaded to escape at the last moment so he could tell his tale:

"I was one of the first inside the transport chamber. This gave me the opportunity to look around and take in the surroundings. The room itself was sparse. It was not too small, square shaped, roughly five meters along each wall. Large enough to hold the seven to eight hundred people who I had seen enter before the last transport. The atmosphere in the dimly lit chamber was tense and depressing. It was only minutes away before we were to launch. No memory, no trace of any of us would remain.

Suddenly a few girls, naked and in the full bloom of youth, came up to me. They stood in front of me without a word, gazing at me deep in thought and shaking their heads uncomprehendingly. At last one of them plucked up courage and spoke to me: 'We understand that you have chosen to travel to the alien home planet with us of your own free will, and we have come to tell you that we think your decision pointless: for it helps no one.' She went on: 'We must go, but you still have a chance to save your life. You have to return to the town and tell everybody about our last hours,' she commanded. 'You have to explain to them that they must free themselves from any illusions. They ought to fight, that's better than dying helplessly on a strange planet.

I was surprised and strangely moved by her cool and calm detachment in the face of her uncertain future, and also by her sweetness. Before I could make an answer to her spirited speech, the girls took hold of me and dragged me protesting to the door of the transport chamber. There they gave me a last push which made me land bang on the ground just as the ship began to slowly lift from the ground."


So we have two seperate eyewitness accounts that describe being taken aboard an alien space craft. Not all of the details corroborate. But there's nothing implausible about either account that would cause us to reject the testimony as unreliable. And, both accounts converge on the fact that the witnesses were taken aboard an alien spacecraft and the both agree that it was a fearful, potentially traumatizing event.
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:21 am

Still insufficient evidence. In the old days, people told stories about being abducted by witches and demons. Today they tell stories about being abducted by aliens. Same old, same old!

Humans are fallible. They are insane. Tell lies. Perpetrate hoaxes. Or get thoroughly deluded.

As I said before, evidence needs to be strong and credible. Like alien DNA or some new alien technology no one has seen before. So far, no such thing has ever been seen.

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Betty and Barney Hill / Mary's best documented UFO

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:55 am

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:Here's a summary of the startling testimony of Betty and Barney Hill--two people who were actually taken aboard a UFO:


You poor boy. You copied the story from a UFO fan website which removed the full quotes and actual timeline, concerning the Hills .

Firstly, you forgot to mention that the Hills didn't actually remember anything at all and "only started to remember" when under psychotherapy. It was a couple years later that Barney Hill started to describe "aliens" that he actually saw on a Twilight Zone episode called The Bellero Shield"on February 10, 1964. In fact Barney directly claimed to talk to the aliens "through their eyes" which was the story line in that episode. Barney's story changed and became more elaborate as he talked to media.

You then state that the Betty's star map ( The aliens use printed maps which is very funny) is dead accurate and this is further evidence. Unfortunately this is not true at all. The map was totally inaccurate and a journalist made up that story about it being accurate. The Hill star map “recollection” and “correlation” are bogus.

You are probably totally unaware that the Hills story has been fully debunked systematically, by most skeptic magazines.
http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=156

So, here you are again, empty handed, claiming that UFO and aliens are heavily documented but unable to provide one example.

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:34 am

It's fun to watch Barney's blarney increase as he was co-opted into Betty's story. He was basically forced to agree with her BS to save his marriage. Once that barrier was broken, of course, he spouted the party line faithfully.
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:39 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Read a book:
Flying Saucers Have Landed. (Revised Edition). Adamski, George (& Desmond Leslie).
...
...
...
...
The Bible and flying saucers Downing, Barry H., 1938-


How very odd, Mary - I appear to have precisely the same collection of UFO material as do you. And I mean precisely. Isn't that strange?

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by stormbay » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:01 am

Gord wrote:
stormbay wrote:As our universe is part of a multidimensional reality--

Do you mean, apart from the obvious three?
.


No our viewable universe is 3 dimensions, but within that, are many other dimensional realities. On our own earth there are innumerable dimensional realities and you can view them in action every moment of the day, by just going outside and viewing nature, even in urban area's.

Some claim we are a 4 dimensional universe, by adding time, but time is a human concept and has no reality within the universe outside humans concepts. What to us is a millennium, in the universe, is way shorter than a sub nano second.

Out side our viewable universe, are probably an unlimited number of different dimensional realities, dark matter and dark energy are probably in that category, as are the insides of black holes. It's all conjecture really, just like all astrophysics is, because we really don't have a clue and are just guessing. If we didn't make guesses, we wouldn't get anywhere, so today we think we are right about something and to tomorrow we will find out we are wrong. That's what's so good about evolution, you make a discovery one day and the next you debunk it, with a better discovery.

The claim nothing can exceed the speed of light is slowly being debunked, simply because we have evolved beyond the simple misunderstanding. They are currently working with photonic booms, which are just like sound barrier booms, but happen when the something breaking the light speed barrier. I've always wondered why they could claim nothing can go faster than light, when it's obvious that's putting limits on reality and every day their cosmological theories go out the window, when they find something that just doesn't fit with their theories and that happens almost daily.

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:07 am

stormbay wrote:
Gord wrote:
stormbay wrote:As our universe is part of a multidimensional reality--

Do you mean, apart from the obvious three?
.


No our viewable universe is 3 dimensions, but within that, are many other dimensional realities. On our own earth there are innumerable dimensional realities and you can view them in action every moment of the day, by just going outside and viewing nature, even in urban area's.

Some claim we are a 4 dimensional universe, by adding time, but time is a human concept and has no reality within the universe outside humans concepts. What to us is a millennium, in the universe, is way shorter than a sub nano second.

Out side our viewable universe, are probably an unlimited number of different dimensional realities, dark matter and dark energy are probably in that category, as are the insides of black holes. It's all conjecture really, just like all astrophysics is, because we really don't have a clue and are just guessing. If we didn't make guesses, we wouldn't get anywhere, so today we think we are right about something and to tomorrow we will find out we are wrong. That's what's so good about evolution, you make a discovery one day and the next you debunk it, with a better discovery.

The claim nothing can exceed the speed of light is slowly being debunked, simply because we have evolved beyond the simple misunderstanding. They are currently working with photonic booms, which are just like sound barrier booms, but happen when the something breaking the light speed barrier. I've always wondered why they could claim nothing can go faster than light, when it's obvious that's putting limits on reality and every day their cosmological theories go out the window, when they find something that just doesn't fit with their theories and that happens almost daily.


You're making this {!#%@} up as you go along. No - really - you are.

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:23 am

Well, looks like you highlighted the right sentence, Poodle.

It's all conjecture really...because we really don't have a clue and are just guessing.


Sez stormbay. :-P
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:20 am

stormbay wrote:The claim nothing can exceed the speed of light is slowly being debunked, simply because we have evolved beyond the simple misunderstanding. They are currently working with photonic booms,
Photonic booms have nothing to do with things travelling faster than the speed of light.

"If you sweep a laser pointer across the Moon fast enough, you can create spots that actually move faster than light. Anyone can do it........When a superluminal sweep occurs, it typically starts with a flash that may reveal previously unknown three-dimensional information about the scattering object. .......Flashes, dubbed “photonic booms” because they are directly analogous to sonic booms, may be detectable on the Moon, on passing asteroids......"

Try reading articles before making up stories.
:D

Flashes from Faster-than-Light Spots May Help Illuminate Astronomical Secrets
http://www.mtu.edu/news/stories/2015/ja ... crets.html

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by HghrSymmetry » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:45 am

stormbay wrote: I've always wondered why they could claim nothing can go faster than light, when it's obvious that's putting limits on reality and every day their cosmological theories go out the window, when they find something that just doesn't fit with their theories and that happens almost daily.


Relativity still hasn't "gone out the window". Of course, it's not the "final theory", but it seems to work fairly well so far.

The phenomenon is possible only because the spots contain no mass and so cannot only move faster than light, but decelerate past the speed of light without violating Einstein’s theory of special relativity.

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:16 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Mental model

What would be likely to happen if we did have aliens visit us?

Imagine an alien civilisation orbiting a star only 100 light years away. About 1000 years ago, they get a report from a robot drone telling them that an interesting life form seems to be achieving intelligence in planet Earth. So they decide to send some of their people to check it out.

For a start, they would not be able to travel faster than light, since that breaks one of the strongest and most basic laws of physics.

Do you have any reason except for your own personal incredulity to believe that traveling faster than the speed of light violates any laws of the physical universe?

Lance Kennedy wrote:In fact, they are likely to be unable to go faster than about one tenth light speed. This means they will take 1000 years to get here. So they have just arrived.

To travel for 1000 years keeping their people alive means a giant ship. To hide it, they would need to keep it a long way from Earth - perhaps as far away as Mars, and painted black. To survey the Earth, they would need to send robot drones. An advanced civilisation would have the technology to make them really small.

So there is the alien mother ship roughly in Mars orbit, and a billion robot drones watching us and reporting back, all disguised as insects. No one here on Earth would suspect a thing. So this idea of documented visits by aliens is so much bullsh*t. Even if they were here, we would not know.

Maybe thats why nobody can prove aliens haven't visited Earth.
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:22 am

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote: Do you have any reason except for your own personal incredulity to believe that traveling faster than the speed of light violates any laws of the physical universe?
There is no evidence that anything goes faster than the speed of light at all. Do you have some?
:D

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote:So there is the alien mother ship roughly in Mars orbit, and a billion robot drones watching us and reporting back, all disguised as insects. No one here on Earth would suspect a thing.
Apart from having normal earthly DNA shared with other bugs in the same genus.

Do you know what DNA is Mary?

:D

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Re: Betty and Barney Hill / Mary's best documented UFO

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:Here's a summary of the startling testimony of Betty and Barney Hill--two people who were actually taken aboard a UFO:


You poor boy. You copied the story from a UFO fan website which removed the full quotes and actual timeline, concerning the Hills .

Firstly, you forgot to mention that the Hills didn't actually remember anything at all and "only started to remember" when under psychotherapy. It was a couple years later that Barney Hill started to describe "aliens" that he actually saw on a Twilight Zone episode called The Bellero Shield"on February 10, 1964. In fact Barney directly claimed to talk to the aliens "through their eyes" which was the story line in that episode. Barney's story changed and became more elaborate as he talked to media.

You then state that the Betty's star map ( The aliens use printed maps which is very funny) is dead accurate and this is further evidence. Unfortunately this is not true at all. The map was totally inaccurate and a journalist made up that story about it being accurate. The Hill star map “recollection” and “correlation” are bogus.

You are probably totally unaware that the Hills story has been fully debunked systematically, by most skeptic magazines.
http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=156

So, here you are again, empty handed, claiming that UFO and aliens are heavily documented but unable to provide one example.

Yes, maybe the Hill's were excitable. Or maybe they were speaking figuratively, not literally. That's why we can't rely on just their story alone. It needs to be corroborated. Fortunately, we have the testimony from Petro--testimony which you, Mr. Doubting Thomas, have accepted as credible--that corroborates the essential element of the Hill's story. They both say they were taken aboard an alien spacecraft.

So who cares if most of what the Hills said has been proven false? Do you have any evidence that UFO scholars have relied on the Hill testimony?
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote: Do you have any reason except for your own personal incredulity to believe that traveling faster than the speed of light violates any laws of the physical universe?
There is no evidence that anything goes faster than the speed of light at all. Do you have some?
:D

Fallacy of incredulity. Prove to me that there's no evidence of anything traveling faster than the speed of light.

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote:So there is the alien mother ship roughly in Mars orbit, and a billion robot drones watching us and reporting back, all disguised as insects. No one here on Earth would suspect a thing.
Apart from having normal earthly DNA shared with other bugs in the same genus.

Do you know what DNA is Mary?

:D

Do you know the difference between what I write and what somebody else writes that I respond to?
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:59 am

Mary Q Contrary the holocaust denier wrote:Prove to me that there's no evidence of anything traveling faster than the speed of light.
I don't have lift a finger. You are claiming there is evidence of things that go faster than the speed of light......so name this "evidence".

You are also claiming Einstein is wrong. Show my your mathematics to show this error.


So Mary, last week you said that no one would fake UFO documents, as you could not see any point. I then linked you to a direct quote from your holocaust denial cult leader, Ernst Zundel, where he states exactly why he fakes UFO reports. Did you read it?
:D

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Re: Betty and Barney Hill / Mary's best documented UFO

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:05 am

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier cult member wrote:So who cares if most of what the Hills said has been proven false?
Amusingly, You are the person who brought the Hills up as your "best evidence".

Mary have you actually ever read one book about UFO's? What is its title?



Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier cult member wrote:Do you have any evidence that UFO scholars have relied on the Hill testimony?
What is a "UFO scholar"? Can you name such a person? Do you mean Ian Ridpath?

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:25 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Still insufficient evidence. In the old days, people told stories about being abducted by witches and demons. Today they tell stories about being abducted by aliens. Same old, same old!

Well, witches and demons are a bit offtopic for this discussion. But the evidence for the existence of witches and demons is even stronger (if that is possible) than the evidence for UFOs. Of course, eyewitnesses are plentiful enough to give us a moral certainty that UFOs exist. But witchcraft scholars have the records of people who confessed in open court to practicing witchcraft. So we know not only that witches exist, but we know many of their habits such as flying through the air on brooms or turning themselves into toads.

Humans are fallible. They are insane. Tell lies. Perpetrate hoaxes. Or get thoroughly deluded.

As I said before, evidence needs to be strong and credible. Like alien DNA or some new alien technology no one has seen before. So far, no such thing has ever been seen.

You've been watching too much CSI. Not everything is proven through DNA.

And you're starting to sound like one of those creationists who demands to a "missing link" fossil to prove evolution. When scientists do find a missing link between two different species of animals, the creationist says "a ha! You found fossil (C) which is a link between fossil (A) and fossil (E) but now I demand you show me the link between fossil (A) and (C) and between (C) and (E)!"

Eyewitnesses describe a "new alien technology" like a flying saucer and now you're demanding to see yet another new alien technology that no one has ever seen before. Eyewitnesses have described a multitude of alien spacecraft. Some are saucers. Some are dots. Some are metallic. Some are points of light. Some are solo. Some of them are in groups. How many "new" UFOs do you need to have documented?
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Re: Betty and Barney Hill / Mary's best documented UFO

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:34 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier cult member wrote:So who cares if most of what the Hills said has been proven false?
Amusingly, You are the person who brought the Hills up as your "best evidence".

Mary have you actually ever read one book about UFO's? What is its title?



Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier cult member wrote:Do you have any evidence that UFO scholars have relied on the Hill testimony?
What is a "UFO scholar"? Can you name such a person? Do you mean Ian Ridpath?

No. I never said the Hills was my best evidence. I think Petro is actually better evidence because he is clearly a very credible eyewitness who gives us a very moving account of what happens aboard an alien spacecraft.

But even Petro's story contain implausible elements that gave us a reason to dismiss everything he said, we couldn't. That's because Petro and the Hills both say they were aboard a UFO. So we know that much is true. Who cares what else is in the statement? We just ignore it.
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Re: Betty and Barney Hill / Mary's best documented UFO

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:24 am

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier cult member wrote:No. I never said the Hills was my best evidence.
Then why did you give it as an example of documentation supporting aliens in UFOs?
:D

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier cult member wrote:.....That's because Petro and the Hills both say they were aboard a UFO. So we know that much is true. Who cares what else is in the statement? We just ignore it.
We don't know that is true at all.

1) There is no complimentary evidence of any nature to support their claims,
2) They did not undertake any rigorous skeptical or adversarial interrogation, as allowed, say, in a court, to determine the veracity or inconsistencies in their accounts.
3) Their recovered memories are years after the event (The Hills)
4) There is strong evidence of fabrication. ( The Star map)
5) The Outer Limits storyline pre-dates the recovered memories, suggesting plagiarism,
6) The story is not plausible to a "reasonable person" under any standard.
7) Humans make up stories.


You really should read the Le Penseur thread. He claimed he was captured many times and taken by intelligent aliens, in a UFO, to a secret base. He really believed we were listening and got over-confident.....gave too much detail.....started adding bits......forgot to remember the dates...... .In the end, he realised that he had no explanation how he returned each time from the secret alien base. He then methodically deleted every one of his own posts.

"They're here. the're Grey. Get used to it" Thread
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12815
viewtopic.php?p=190542#p190542
The story starts
viewtopic.php?p=190669#p190669
(Le Penseur deleted every one of his posts or replaced his posts with gibberish. You have to read his words in the responding post's quote. It also starts and stops a bit before heating up. The last link quotes his basic story.)

Do you think Le Pensier is plausible, in his witness testimony, under your standards?

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Re: Betty and Barney Hill / Mary's best documented UFO

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:48 am

Good News Mary. Here is another member describing UFOs that chase him, when he hoses his tent. His name is Kevin Puppos.

Kevin Sees UFO Daytime FLEET ! WITNESS and Impressions.....
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10301&p=136233&hilit=kevin#p135768

How do you assess his "documented" testimony?
:D

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by stormbay » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:56 am

Poodle wrote:
stormbay wrote:
Gord wrote:
stormbay wrote:As our universe is part of a multidimensional reality--

Do you mean, apart from the obvious three?
.


No our viewable universe is 3 dimensions, but within that, are many other dimensional realities. On our own earth there are innumerable dimensional realities and you can view them in action every moment of the day, by just going outside and viewing nature, even in urban area's.

Some claim we are a 4 dimensional universe, by adding time, but time is a human concept and has no reality within the universe outside humans concepts. What to us is a millennium, in the universe, is way shorter than a sub nano second.

Out side our viewable universe, are probably an unlimited number of different dimensional realities, dark matter and dark energy are probably in that category, as are the insides of black holes. It's all conjecture really, just like all astrophysics is, because we really don't have a clue and are just guessing. If we didn't make guesses, we wouldn't get anywhere, so today we think we are right about something and to tomorrow we will find out we are wrong. That's what's so good about evolution, you make a discovery one day and the next you debunk it, with a better discovery.

The claim nothing can exceed the speed of light is slowly being debunked, simply because we have evolved beyond the simple misunderstanding. They are currently working with photonic booms, which are just like sound barrier booms, but happen when the something breaking the light speed barrier. I've always wondered why they could claim nothing can go faster than light, when it's obvious that's putting limits on reality and every day their cosmological theories go out the window, when they find something that just doesn't fit with their theories and that happens almost daily.


You're making this {!#%@} up as you go along. No - really - you are.


Not really,

"Biggest myth in the universe busted? The lightspeed barrier can appear to be broken thanks to 'photonic booms', claims scientist"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ntist.html

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:32 am

The Daily Mail? :lol:

Besides, you appear to have missed this in the bullet points ... "The effect is only a trick - but it could reveal hidden details". That's sort of important.

The speed of light is not actually the 'speed of light' - c is the speed at which all massless particles travel. Being massless, they can (and do) travel as fast as it's possible to travel. To debunk this (slowly or as quick as you like), you must show the error in Einstein's maths and then (as Einstein's equations are solvable in positive and negative scenarios) show that the Principle of Causality (causes come before effects) is a load of tosh.

Off you go, then.

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Harte » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:58 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I wonder what our dear Matthew will say about this testimony. Here's a summary of the startling testimony of Betty and Barney Hill--two people who were actually taken aboard a UFO:

I wonder what our dear Mary will say about the documented fact that Betty originally described these ETs as looking like Jimmy Durante.

Image
Also, how did the topic of "Ancient Aliens" become one about modern UFO sightings?

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Monster » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:11 pm

stormbay wrote:No our viewable universe is 3 dimensions, but within that, are many other dimensional realities. On our own earth there are innumerable dimensional realities and you can view them in action every moment of the day, by just going outside and viewing nature, even in urban area's.

I don't understand this. What am I supposed to see in nature that is evidence of more than 3 spatial dimensions?
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:29 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:You can find nitpicky little anomalies in some of the eyewitness testimony,
Matthew Ellard wrote:You haven't offered us any eyewitness testimony at all, remember?


Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:So what if one eyewitness was wrong?
Matthew Ellard wrote: It means you must look for complimentary evidence, something that you have also failed to provide one example of, for UFOs



Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denial cult member wrote:Why don't you start by looking at the mufon database at: http://mufoncms.com/cgi-bin/report_hand ... earch_page? Try to find one report that you have any reason besides your own personal incredulity to believe is false.
[color=#000080]No Mary, We all know that you haven't actually looked at the MUFON database yourself . We all know that you don't know any credible UFO cases at all and that's why you are simply unable to nominate one example to support your stupid claims.


I gave you several credible eyewitnesses both in this discussion and elsewhere. You have failed to prove any of them unreliable. So I'll nominate Petro once again. Tell me why you have any reason to dismiss him:
"I was one of the first inside the transport chamber. This gave me the opportunity to look around and take in the surroundings. The room itself was sparse. It was not too small, square shaped, roughly five meters along each wall. Large enough to hold the seven to eight hundred people who I had seen enter before the last transport. The atmosphere in the dimly lit chamber was tense and depressing. It was only minutes away before we were to launch. No memory, no trace of any of us would remain.

Suddenly a few girls, naked and in the full bloom of youth, came up to me. They stood in front of me without a word, gazing at me deep in thought and shaking their heads uncomprehendingly. At last one of them plucked up courage and spoke to me: 'We understand that you have chosen to travel to the alien home planet with us of your own free will, and we have come to tell you that we think your decision pointless: for it helps no one.' She went on: 'We must go, but you still have a chance to save your life. You have to return to the town and tell everybody about our last hours,' she commanded. 'You have to explain to them that they must free themselves from any illusions. They ought to fight, that's better than dying helplessly on a strange planet.

I was surprised and strangely moved by her cool and calm detachment in the face of her uncertain future, and also by her sweetness. Before I could make an answer to her spirited speech, the girls took hold of me and dragged me protesting to the door of the transport chamber. There they gave me a last push which made me land bang on the ground just as the ship began to slowly lift from the ground."
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Poodle » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:00 pm

"... It was not too small, square shaped, roughly five meters along each wall. Large enough to hold the seven to eight hundred people who I had seen enter before the last transport ..."

25 square metres for 700 to 800 people? That's 28 to 32 people per square metre. You think that credible?

Not to mention naked girls (of course), stilted dialogue and a writing style which stinks of fiction rather than reportage. Just how gullible are you?

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by stormbay » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:30 pm

Monster wrote:
stormbay wrote:No our viewable universe is 3 dimensions, but within that, are many other dimensional realities. On our own earth there are innumerable dimensional realities and you can view them in action every moment of the day, by just going outside and viewing nature, even in urban area's.

I don't understand this. What am I supposed to see in nature that is evidence of more than 3 spatial dimensions?


It's more dimensional understanding, when we look out into space because of our dimensional perception, we see distance as being the problem with investigation. But this could be because of our dimensional understanding and not fact.

An ant sees life through different dimensional eyes and can't perceive human existence and how it operates. To an ant, to travel 10 kilometres would probably take it many many life times. During that time it would encounter mountains huge rivers, impassable obstacles, large predators and many other obstacles. In an ants mind this could be equated to a human travelling across the universe at their believed highest possible speed an ant can travel at using it's best technology.

However if that ant were to climb upon the vehicle of a human, it would cover the 10 klms in minutes, and probability not notice what is associated with it's travel. The ant would not see it's viewable universe as we do because of it's dimensional understanding and we may face the same situation. To exceed light speed, all we may have to do is hitch a ride on another dimensional type of vehicle or energy source.

The awareness of all mobile living beings, depends on their dimensional understanding and you can see that in all living things to some degree. It may not be the most scientific appraisal of dimensional understanding, but is shows how we could easily be wrong about our belief in light being the fastest thing in the universe.

If we look at our universe as an ant looks at its. Then it may well be that light is one of the slowest things in the universe and presently, like the ant we are incapable of understanding or even seeing transporting energies that would solve our dilemma of cosmic travel.

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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Monster » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:48 pm

stormbay wrote:
Monster wrote:
stormbay wrote:No our viewable universe is 3 dimensions, but within that, are many other dimensional realities. On our own earth there are innumerable dimensional realities and you can view them in action every moment of the day, by just going outside and viewing nature, even in urban area's.

I don't understand this. What am I supposed to see in nature that is evidence of more than 3 spatial dimensions?


It's more dimensional understanding, when we look out into space because of our dimensional perception, we see distance as being the problem with investigation. But this could be because of our dimensional understanding and not fact.

An ant sees life through different dimensional eyes and can't perceive human existence and how it operates. To an ant, to travel 10 kilometres would probably take it many many life times. During that time it would encounter mountains huge rivers, impassable obstacles, large predators and many other obstacles. In an ants mind this could be equated to a human travelling across the universe at their believed highest possible speed an ant can travel at using it's best technology.

However if that ant were to climb upon the vehicle of a human, it would cover the 10 klms in minutes, and probability not notice what is associated with it's travel. The ant would not see it's viewable universe as we do because of it's dimensional understanding and we may face the same situation. To exceed light speed, all we may have to do is hitch a ride on another dimensional type of vehicle or energy source.

The awareness of all mobile living beings, depends on their dimensional understanding and you can see that in all living things to some degree. It may not be the most scientific appraisal of dimensional understanding, but is shows how we could easily be wrong about our belief in light being the fastest thing in the universe.

If we look at our universe as an ant looks at its. Then it may well be that light is one of the slowest things in the universe and presently, like the ant we are incapable of understanding or even seeing transporting energies that would solve our dilemma of cosmic travel.

I have a problem with your terms here. It looks like you want to say "perspective" rather than "dimension".
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Re: Ancient Aliens

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:52 pm

Mary

You really are coming across as being a very gullible person.
Did you ever watch the TV program called "House"? While it is fiction, there is one thing I really like. The lead character, Dr. Gregory House, has this frequent saying : "people lie". In spite of the fact that this is a story only, that saying is so correct, and anyone who forgets it is doomed to fallacy.

People lie. Remember that. People lie deliberately. People lie accidentally. People lie because they made a mistake. People lie because they are insane. People lie because they are perpetrating a hoax. People lie for kindness. People lie out of mischief. But overall, you can guarantee that people will tell lies, lies, and more lies.

Stories of UFO encounters must be considered to be lies unless proven otherwise. After all, what is more likely? That an alien from another star system, many light years away, with the technology to travel those vast distances, should come here in secret and immediately reveal themselves through carelessness and stupidity? Or is it more likely that someone tells a lie?

Come on Mary. Are you so idiotic that you blindly believe people who tell porkies?

You listed George Adamski as a reference. Are you aware that he was revealed decades ago as a fraudster and scam artist? His photos of 'flying saucers' were faked, and the method used was pathetically simple. For example. One of his photos of a flying saucer against a blue sky was a rubbish tin lid thrown spinning in the air and photographed.

Fraudsters and scam artists like him are everywhere. I remember reading about Bigfoot and finding that several groups of people had admitted strapping on plywood 'paws' and stamping around to leave Bigfoot footprints. Others had admitted putting on gorilla suits and getting themselves videoed as a fake Bigfoot to carry out a hoax.

UFO cases are no different. They fall into three groups.
1. The sincere people who see lights in the sky and fail to understand that they have a mundane explanation.
2. The fraudsters who make up all sorts of stories to gain attention, and sometimes to scam money off people.
3. Those who are plain nuts.

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