Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

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Shen1986
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Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Shen1986 » Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:34 pm

This guy came into my skeptic radar today. I therefore decided to have a look at him. This is just part 1 I will look on his OBE stories later on:

Graham Nicholls claims that he has many verified OBEs where he claims this:

Veridical cases[edit]

Nicholls also claims to have had several veridical out-of-body experiences.[11] In his books, articles and in recent videos published he gives examples of his out-of-body experiences that have been witnessed and confirmed by others. The videos feature the witnesses describing what they saw and recorded in notes at the time of the OBEs supporting Nicholls version of events. He also outlines an example of a claimed objective OBE in his October 2011 article for the journal of The Institute of Noetic Sciences.[12]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Nicholls

So I decided to look at him.

1. Problem is that his childhood shows he was a avid believer and when he had a OBE:

Nicholls's background is working class London, where he was brought up in the often difficult circumstances of the inner city. He describes a harrowing mugging incident, and hanging out with delinquent youths in his teens, yet he clearly possesses a highly sensitive and spiritually-inclined temperament. His first psychic experience occurred as a child when he awoke one night feeling a powerful sense of energy all around him. He found himself getting out of bed and going into the corridor outside, where he encountered an unfamiliar tall figure staring intently at him.

I looked up to find that the energy continued to flow in every direction and even the doorway in which the figure stood seemed to extend out into another place or time.... Although my fear held me to the spot, there was also a feeling that something very important and transformative was taking place. The fear came from me, not from anything the apparition had done. In fact it had more of the feeling of a messenger or guide than of anything negative...

The more I looked into the eyes of the tall ethereal figure the more I felt like I was being given something. Looking back now, even without appealing to mystical explanations for what took place, it is clear that I was opened to a new and life-changing avenue of enquiry in my life.

At age twelve he started to have the frequent sense of floating a few feet above the ground, and sometimes woke from sleep to find himself briefly looking at the sky above him, as if he was somehow seeing through walls. Later he discovered Janet Lee Mitchell's book Out-of-Body Experiences, and spent several months trying to induce one by means of complex visualisations. Eventually he succeeded:
I had not been lying there long when an almost violent surge shot through my body, like all the effort of the previous months had built up into a single transformative moment. I opened my eyes to the realisation that I was floating above my body like a translucent reflection of myself. Currents of energy seemed to pulse and flow throughout my shimmering form, and although I could barely move, and only side-to-side as if a pole extended from my head to my feet, the intensity of what was happening gave me a deep sense of freedom.


Looking down, his body appeared grey and stony, almost statuesque. His 'second' body was 'luminous and radiating, and seemed to add a slight hue to the room.

It took a while to learn how to move, and longer still to reach beyond the confines of his home. He found that organic objects, such as trees, seemed to vibrate on a subtler frequency to concrete and glass, which, counterintuitively, seemed more energised. But the frequencies seem to shift; sometimes living things seem 'almost unbearably luminescent' while at other times they appear dull and almost invisible.

He began experimenting with ways to push himself to more distant locations, using techniques such as meditation and yogic breathing. Physical exhaustion, he found, is an ideal condition in which to have an OBE. On one such occasion, during a trip to the New Forest, he witnessed
the most vivid and intense colour cascading around me. As I became used to the intensity of the scene I could make out trees and countryside with a level of detail that my physical eyes had never achieved... The leaves of plants seemed to glisten with light and as I focused on their surface my eyes seemed to look deep into them giving a sense of the life and fertility flowing through their delicate structures... I felt ecstatic travelling over the treetops with a sense of total peace and freedom; everything was alive and transfused with light.

Some incidents provided veridical details. In one of the first, he found himself looking down at a street near Paddington in North London. Going down to street level he focused on a sign outside a restaurant that listed the day's specials, and going to check it later found it to be exactly as he had seen it while in an out-of-body state. This persuaded him it was not just a hallucination. (I'd need more details to be convinced of this myself, but if confirmed, it's the kind of thing that refutes the implication in Blackmore's single experience, where the details she observed turned out not to conform with the facts.)

Some of his experiences turned out to be precognitive, but not in a good way. He describes witnessing the 1999 Soho pub bombing, an event that actually took place five days later, and also the 2005 underground train bombings, viewing one of the attacks near Liverpool Street a year before it happened. He describes these experiences as being suffused with a cerulean-blue light, which he now takes as an indication that it is likely to be precognitive.

Such incidents nurtured Nicholls's gradual spiritual development, although more by seeking knowledge and experience rather than following any particular religion or ideology. He started holding workshops, and developed innovative methods of bringing on an OBE. He especially favours immersive techniques, such as the ganzfeld, not necessarily to create OBEs, but to help nurture the conditions for experiences to occur.


Taken from: http://monkeywah.typepad.com/paranormal ... ience.html

Here is even more about his past:

Graham Nicholls was born in the Paddington district of central London into a working-class family. He states that during his early life he was surrounded by crime and social problems, but that the influence of literature, art, science and spiritual philosophies helped him to look beyond the limitations of this environment.[4][5]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Nicholls

This shows he had a troubled childhood and spiritual books helped him to cope with that like it is written above. This can have a big impact on a person. I know people who had harsh lives and became believers thanks to this because religion gave them power to overcome this hard reality but this again does not prove that religion is true. A lie can help but it is still a lie.

2. Problem with the author he does not like skeptics:

He makes some useful comments on sceptical disbelief. In the case of Susan Blackmore's single experience, the fact that she was able to go on communicating with other people who were present in the room at the time suggests to him that it was a hallucination - unsurprising, since it was brought on by smoking a joint at a party.

He doesn't think much either of the Swiss neurophysiologist Olaf Blanke, who simulates OBE-type experiences by using virtual technology and claims this proves it is all in the mind. Blanke's view has been uncritically accepted by much of the media - a pity, as he has merely shown that the brain can be tricked or manipulated, so that it becomes confused about the position of the body or limbs in space. That tells us little if anything about full out-of-body experiences, which he has not demonstrated, as NDE specialist Dr Peter Fenwick also points out.


Taken from: http://monkeywah.typepad.com/paranormal ... ience.html

3. Problem: He makes excuses about why verdical components are hard to get:

October 3rd, 2012, 02:30 PM
Graham_Nicholls
Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 25


Quote: Originally Posted by Michael Larkin
Thanks very much for posting this, Graham. It seems to me that the veridical aspect you mention is ripe for scientific testing, though I seem to recall in the interview that you mentioned having an OBE to order in experimental conditions might pose problems.

How far can OBE-ers go geographically? Are they limited to places that they have actually been in ordinary waking life? Could they, for example, go to a specified locked room somewhere and observe the contents?

I guess what I'm getting at is, could an experimenter set up such a secure room containing known objects, and invite OBE-ers to go there at their own convenience, and then report back?

The issue of veridical evidence is a very important one, and one that I don't think is as simple as an object/sign in a secure location. I think this kind of research or understanding is based on certain assumptions, largely put forward by the 'astral projection' literature. These assumptions include the idea that all OBEs are of a consistent quality, that they are inducible at will at any time, and that they are fully controllable. It seems clear to me from my own experience that OBEs are highly veridical, but none of the assumptions above are true. Let me outline a powerful OBE and then discuss it in more detail and how I think the research could go.

During a meeting with 4 others present I induced an OBE using a version of my own G-Technique that resulted in me standing on the corner of Old Compton Street in London. I have no recollection of travelling there and in fact was moving through a natural environment moments before. I did not direct where I went or how long I stayed etc. I stood there seeing in a cerulean blue (there was no floating or flying in the experience) until an explosion burst out from the right hand side of the street around 100 metres away. I remember seeing a man run passed me towards the explosion and the general chaos, before a feeling like a wave of emotion hit me ending the visual component of what was happening. I then felt like I was in a kind of void until I slowly became aware of one of the members of the group bringing me back, as it were, to this reality.

Minutes after this I told the group what I had seen and that it was precognitive. 5 days later an explosion on Old Compton Street did take place as I'd described to the 4 witnesses to my OBE and recorded in my diary.

Now this, as far as I am aware, is one of the only experiences in which an OBE resulted in a precognition and was witnessed as it took place. It also obviously offers very strong support for OBEs having veridical elements. But could I or anyone else do this on command? Unfortunately not, these are heightened experiences. Like any area of the 'paranormal' these things happen at moments when the conditions are right, not whenever we want.

Trying to do these kinds of things in the laboratory would, no doubt, result in something of the statistical significance of remote viewing, due to controllability factors and probably due to this over focusing on targets as part of research. Do people often describe signs/pictures and the like in OBEs? Rarely, so why do we use this methodology? It is interesting to me that we assume we are dealing with 'sight', I suspect something more complex is at play.

It seems to me that we should work with the experiences and use a protocol something in line with what Andrew Paquette mentioned in his recent Skeptiko interview, looking at the experiences within the context in which they occur.

Pim Van Lommel expressed scepticism towards the AWARE project to me for similar reasons, we need to look at the experiences people are having.

I hope that gives an understanding of where I'm coming from,

Graham
Last edited by Graham_Nicholls; October 3rd, 2012 at 03:45 PM.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post118768

Here we can see the excuse he made:

Now this, as far as I am aware, is one of the only experiences in which an OBE resulted in a precognition and was witnessed as it took place. It also obviously offers very strong support for OBEs having veridical elements. But could I or anyone else do this on command? Unfortunately not, these are heightened experiences. Like any area of the 'paranormal' these things happen at moments when the conditions are right, not whenever we want.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post118768

It can be found also here:

http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... ast-3.html

4. Problem: He already received criticism:

Skepticism[edit]

In the October 2012 issue of The Psychologist, the journal of the British Psychological Society, a review of Navigating the Out-of-Body Experience by Graham Nicholls, criticised him for failing “to take into account psychometric properties (e.g. reliability and validity)” in the questionnaire section of the book. The reviewer went on to state that the book “does not meet the standards required by professional psychologists”.[13]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Nicholls

5. Problem: He does not want to apply to the 1 Million Dollar Challenge because he believes it is a hoax which is odd to me. I think he is just a chicken:

Well known skeptic and critic of parapsychology James Randi also responded to an article about Nicholls that appeared in 2011 asking why those mentioned in the article, including Dean Radin, Rupert Sheldrake, Michael Persinger, and Graham Nicholls have not applied for the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. Nicholls penned a response to Randi expressing doubts towards Randi’s honesty, scientific credibility, and the limits of a single test to explore issues such as the existence of OBEs.[11]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Nicholls

6. Problem: He is working with Rupert Sheldrake a known woo master:

As part of his inquiry into psi and human consciousness, in 2009 he began working on a series of telepathy experiments in a joint project with controversial scientist Rupert Sheldrake. The resulting data formed part of Rupert Sheldrake’s research as director of the Perrott-Warrick project, administered by Trinity College, Cambridge.[11]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Nicholls

7. Problem: He has strange believes and knows little about science itself because he then would not have these believes:

Nicholls claims to have had out of body experiences (OBEs) since the age of approximately twelve years old.[9] These experiences led him to study many aspects of parapsychology.[10] In 2009 Nicholls outlined his experiences and ideas relating to OBEs in an article that appeared in Kindred Spirit magazine. In the article he makes it clear that he believes mainstream science will eventually fully embrace psi, or psychical perceptions as natural, rather than supernatural or paranormal.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Nicholls

8. Problem: He has his own workshops and produced books. It smells a lot like woo and that he is after the money:

Yet I realise now that I've treated the out-of-body experience from a research perspective, not from a practical one, as something that might be exciting - and spiritually educational - to actually do. When Graham Nicholls, an out-of-body expert, got in touch to invite me to one of his workshops last year, I was tempted, but it seemed like a big leap to take.

Now Nicholls has sent me his new book to review, about how to induce OBEs. I soon realised it would make no sense without reading his first one, Avenues of the Human Spirit, which tells how he first started having these experiences. So this post is by way of comment on both.


Taken from: http://monkeywah.typepad.com/paranormal ... ience.html

These are described in some detail in his new book, Navigating the Out of Body Experience: Radical New Techniques. Other approaches include relaxation, visualising, massage, movement, physical exhaustion, and so on. He also discusses the of geometric patterns and other visual symbols, similar to those used by occultists, and there are sections on related topics, such as healing, nutrition (he is a keen vegan), sleep, exercise and sex. A substantial appendix gives a variety of methods in a step-by-step form for readers to follow.


Taken from: http://monkeywah.typepad.com/paranormal ... ience.html

Navigating the Out-of-body Experience is published on April 8. Details of Graham Nicholls's workshops here.


Taken from: http://monkeywah.typepad.com/paranormal ... ience.html

9. Problem: He is even doing art in OBE style so he is after the money:

Art career[edit]

Since the early 1990s Nicholls has developed artistic works that explore subjects such as sensory deprivation, hypnosis, and psi abilities.[5] Nicholls had his first solo show at a gallery run by James Fuentes in New York City in July, 1999 and in 2004 developed many of his psychological ideas into an interactive virtual reality installation called The Living Image. The installation was a collaboration between Graham Nicholls, 3D designer Roma Patel, and site-specific artist Trudi Entwistle at London's Science Museum, much of which was based upon Nicholls life and locations from his childhood. The project was the subject of an academic study into the impact of virtual reality and installation art, the details of which were later published in two books dealing with scenography and performance.[6][7] Technology and science, such as that used in The Living Image project, take a central role in his artistic output, his virtual web projects being considered internationally recognized by the Handbook of the economics of art and culture.[8]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Nicholls

10. Problem: He claims OBEs are not like dreams:

Graham_Nicholls
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Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 25


Quote: Originally Posted by teagueblue
Hello Graham,

Could you talk a little bit more about why you think the OBE and the lucid dream are unique from one another? I'm curious how in your experience the two have differed. Do you feel that there are certain types of experiences that can be had in one, but not in the other?

Thanks,

Chuck

Sure, they are different in virtually every sense I can think of, I'll list some below:

1) My OBEs virtually never occur during sleep.
2) No REM state, unlike most dreams.
3) Sensory awareness heightened (more vivid) or structured differently (colours etc) to dreams and waking reality.
4) Perceptions highly veridical, or consistent with 'consensus reality', unlike dreams.
5) Other than floating, and time being non-linear to some degree, the laws of nature remain constant, unlike in many dreams.
6) Recall is often stronger than a general memory after the experience (consistent with NDE accounts), unlike dreams in which recall is often hard.
7) No psychological elements to do with with my day-to-day life, unlike my dreams.
8) Physical components, such as energy sensations, and other physical sensations, often before and after the OBE.
9) A heightening of energy after the OBE, I rarely notice anything like this in a dream. This can go on for hours even days.
10) A total sense of knowing the experience was real beyond any dream I have ever had, actually sometimes even beyond this reality. (Consistent with NDE accounts)

I hope that gives a basic run down, there are more differences, but I think those are the main ones.

Graham

PS I think that many people describe their OBEs as being consistent with dreams because that's probably what they are. It doesn't however follow that every OBE fits this concept.
Last edited by Graham_Nicholls; October 3rd, 2012 at 11:54 AM.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post118752

This is false:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21783

11. Problem: He believes in strange things because he claims that OBEs are consciousness based but he jumps to supernatural:

October 3rd, 2012, 10:00 AM
Graham_Nicholls
Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 25


Hi Alex,
I think there are a few elements to the issue of the supernatural in OBEs. The first problem is that several of the other writers you refer to consider OBEs and lucid dreams to be the same thing - I do not. If they are the same thing then the huge variety of things that one may experience in a dream enter our understanding of OBEs - this is a problem to me. I tend to lean towards the idea they are in fact a separate strata of experience (mine are closer to NDE descriptions than dreams). Still I and others experience things at times that seem within the category of the 'spiritual', which I don't have an issue with, I consider myself spiritual in the sense of growth, awareness and seeing there are levels beyond Newtonian physics and a closed minded view of Quantum Mechanics. But I am not a supernaturalist, in that I believe the best explanations we have at this point are consciousness based, rather than supernaturally based. For example the entities that many see in OBEs/NDEs vary greatly in cultural/religious and other contexts, now from this we can come to the conclusion that all of those entities exist (which would seem illogical, they can't all be correct), or we can look at them as interpretations of the experience, or total hallucinations. I tend to lean toward the middle option. In OBEs other kinds of filtering problems do occur, such as objects in a room or other factors that are not present in our everyday understanding of the world. Now we can jump to ideas like multiple universes in which these experiences are taking place, or evoke Occum Razor and take the simplest explanation that they are facets of our consciousness, as I do.

So to sum up, I feel that my experiences, work with students and research all support the idea that we are dealing with an extended consciousness, that is largely veridical, but that can and does filter things dependent upon what it already understands, and the limitations of what the experience can produce.

I hope that clarifies how I've come to view things this way. But I am of course open to changing my mind the moment I find a better explanation. However, let's not fall for the 'God of the gaps'.

Graham
Last edited by Graham_Nicholls; October 3rd, 2012 at 10:03 AM.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post118737

Conclusion so far:

The author is not valid. He makes strange claims and was criticized so far he is a woo master. I will look on the videos later on.
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Whitedude » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:03 am

I think you have pretty much nailed it. He had a bad childhood and this OBE stuff is like a spiritual fantasy for him probably as a coping mechanism.

As Wikipedia reports:

Findings have shown in specific cases that paranormal belief acts as a psychodynamic coping function and serves as a mechanism for coping with stress. Survivors from childhood sexual abuse, violent and unsettled home environments have reported to have higher levels of paranormal belief. A study of a random sample of 502 adults revealed paranormal experiences were common in the population which were linked to a history of childhood trauma and dissociative symptoms. Research has also suggested that people who perceive themselves as having little control over their lives may develop paranormal beliefs to help provide an enhanced sense of control.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal#Psychology

He contradicts himself when he says he is invoking "Occum [sic] Razor." He is certainly not taking the most simple explanation which is the OBE has a psychological explanation. Instead he believes consciousness extends outside of the body.

Just checked out his book Navigating the Out-of-Body Experience: Radical New Techniques on amazon. You can get a preview of it. Absolute woo. There's chapters that mention the OBE to meet multidimensional astral spirits, chakra endorsement and all kinds of new age nonsense.

Look at his chapter two he has a section called "Contributing factors in Psi Success" and "How Remote Viewing and Near-Death Experiences Relate to OBEs". In that chapter he also writes a load of quantum woo about how quantum physics apparently disproves materialism.

He has a chapter called "Skeptics and the Out-of-body experience" yes but it's only two pages long! He dismisses the skeptical arguments on two pages out of the entire book. He claims skeptics are not open-minded but he isn't is he? He like most believers deliberately ignores evidence against his beliefs. In Chapter six he claims the Ganzfeld experiments are evidence for psi. They are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_experiment

Chapter of 8 of his book is dedicated to subtle bodies. Chapter nine is about spiritual "vibrations". There's also other chapters endorsing vibrational healing and precognition. No critical coverage at all. He just accepts any new age nonsense as factual.

Can it get any worse? Yes it does, it turns out Nicholls is also a spiritualist who believes in "summerland" and that reports from mediums about the spirit world are accurate.

Now before I checked the bibliography of the book I said in my mind I bet Douglas Baker's book on astral projection is in the bibliography. I was right! It's the second book on his list.

Baker's book was published in 1977, I read it years ago. It is a "woo-classic". It's an early OBE book that talked about subtle bodies, astral realms, and meeting spirits during the OBE, "vibrational" states etc.

Basically Nicholls is just regurgitating crack pottery from 40 years ago. It really gets boring after a while because most new age or paranormal books that support the OBE are like this. They have no new arguments just the same nonsense repeated over and over with a different lay out and cover art. :lol:
I am not longer posting on this forum. Too busy in real life with other interests.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Shen1986 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:34 pm

His book Navigating the Out-Of-Body Experience is total woo. It is written by the same people who all are believers. Nothing new because in his acknowledgements he would like to acknowledge these people:

- The Society for Psychical Research
- Monroe Institute
- The Institute of Noetic Sciences
- International Associate for Near-Death Studies

He thanks them for their resources and research.

He also thanks:

- Alex Tsakiris
- Peter Fenwick
- Jeffrey Long
- Rupert Sheldrake
- Dean Radin

Its all can be seen in the Acknowledgements section. It can be seen here:

http://books.google.sk/books?id=cUMY4GF ... CC0Q6AEwAA

He claims that despite what skeptics are claiming OBEs are becoming stronger and stronger - page 10 - Chapter 1.

Seen here: http://books.google.sk/books?id=cUMY4GF ... CC0Q6AEwAA

I will post more when I will find more sources to this.. So far what I read it is the same old story like Whitedude has written with even the same people behind it. Geez this is never getting old? All of those New Age types are connected with each other and work for each other. Nothing more to say here.

More on Graham Nicholls. No wonder here is a believer:

Graham Nicholls is an English author, artist and expert on out-of-body experiences (OBEs). His exploration of these areas began when as a twelve year old boy he had a series of fleeting experiences of floating a few feet above the ground. Around a year later he heard the term ‘out-of-body experience’ for the first time. This led him to buy a scientific book on the subject and six months later intentionally leave his body for the first time.

Shortly after, as a part of his growing interest in spirituality, he became vegetarian, having already committed himself to abstain from tobacco, alcohol and recreational drugs at the age of just ten years old. A few years later he traveled to India for the first time and explored the practice of yoga and came into contact with Jainism, which with its focus on non-violence left a lasting impression on him.


Taken from: http://www.grahamnicholls.com/about/

Here we can see it in black:

His exploration of these areas began when as a twelve year old boy he had a series of fleeting experiences of floating a few feet above the ground. Around a year later he heard the term ‘out-of-body experience’ for the first time. This led him to buy a scientific book on the subject and six months later intentionally leave his body for the first time.

Shortly after, as a part of his growing interest in spirituality, he became vegetarian, having already committed himself to abstain from tobacco, alcohol and recreational drugs at the age of just ten years old. A few years later he traveled to India for the first time and explored the practice of yoga and came into contact with Jainism, which with its focus on non-violence left a lasting impression on him.


Taken from: http://www.grahamnicholls.com/about/

No wonder it happened in the age of 12 years old in puberty. It is known that in puberty when a person is searching for his identity and in this age a person is looking for himself and second in this age a person is open to woo and is thinking about death, life and spiritual things. This is normal. There was also a research done on this and also I became a believer in that age because I was fascinated with these things because they are cool and trendy.

This even more shows that he is a believer:

Due to his growing awareness of science and technology he also began working with areas that examine psychical experience in an objective and rational way. This led him to become a member of the Society for Psychical Research and to correspond with Dean Radin, Tom Campbell, Dr. Peter Fenwick, Dr. Jeffery Long and others. He has also organised and conducted a series of telepathy experiments with author and biologist Rupert Sheldrake.


Taken from: http://www.grahamnicholls.com/about/

He is has published articles for the Journal of The Institute of Noetic Sciences:

Out-of-Body Experiences: In Search of the Truth – Noetic Now
October 5, 2011 By Graham Nicholls Leave a Comment

An article exploring my years of exploration into the truth of out-of-body experiences first published in the Journal of The Institute of Noetic Sciences. IONS was founded in 1973 by Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell, the sixth person to walk on the moon.


Taken from: http://www.grahamnicholls.com/2011/10/o ... oetic-now/

He had a lecture in the Society for Psychical research:

LECTURE - OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCES- In Search of the Truth - GRAHAM NICHOLLS
In this talk Graham Nicholls will outline the journey he has been on over the last 25 years to rationally understand the nature of his out-of-body experiences. After drawing upon both proponent and sceptical interpretations of the OBE he will discuss why he feels that the veridical elements of some experiences suggest that OBEs are not hallucinations or bodily illusions.

Graham Nicholls is the author of Avenues of the Human Spirit, and Navigating the Out-of-Body Experience. He speaks widely on issues related to spirituality, ethics, art and parapsychology at venues including Cambridge University, The Theosophical Society, and The Science Museum. For more information on his writing, events and OBE coaching please visit: http://www.grahamnicholls.com


Taken from: http://www.spr.ac.uk/main/civicrm/event ... et=1&id=48

He was talking in the Theosophical Society:

He speaks widely on issues related to spirituality, ethics, art and parapsychology at venues including Cambridge University, The Theosophical Society, and The Science Museum.


Taken from: http://www.spr.ac.uk/main/civicrm/event ... et=1&id=48

He also had a article in the Noetic science journal. I know I mentioned above but it is even on wikipedia:

He also outlines an example of a claimed objective OBE in his October 2011 article for the journal of The Institute of Noetic Sciences.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Nicholls

So what to tell this person is a woo believer. Nothing more.
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:50 am

Hi, I approach it from a different angle, more psychology based recognising that our minds are very complex...

Nicolls claims to have several witnesses in regards to the UK pub bombing prediction that he says he saw when in OBE state few days ahead of it occurring. It is my understanding that only one of those witnesses testified to it publicly, what about the others? What if he had an experience of something, returned from it and said some vague, general 'blah' and after the bombing he chose to interpret it as what occurred... while the rest of the witnesses do not feel the same way about his interpretation? He can definitely make the audience listen to him because of his well spoken and peaceful nature and I think that is genuine. In terms of the financial motives, sure, if you committed your life to researching such phenomena you gotta survive of it, but I think this is more a consequence of pursuing his passion rather than one day deciding 'I can't be bothered to work like normal people let's become a con artist' if you know what I mean...

Don't get me wrong, I think people who report having OBEs, NDEs, 'shamanic experiences' or even alien encounters genuinely believe these are 'real' phenomena (especially if the world listens to them in awe) but that may not be different from people with schizophrenia believing that the voices in their heads are actual people. I recommend this book btw https://www.richmclean.com.au/books - That's the thing about mental phenomena, they are very convincing for the one who ones that mind...

I speculate OBEs etc. are a form of dissociation due to traumas in life. The term 'trauma' can be
many things, it does not necessary need to be anything horrific straight the way. After all OBE is literally a dissociation from the self (body). In psychology there is this theory about sub-personalities/alter egos that get formed in the subconscious, generally due to trauma and lack of integration. It is a very much a theory but feels right to me in the absence of conclusive evidence otherwise. This is just a nice simple summary of it http://innatewisdomconnection.com.au/ab ... ing-trauma and one a bit more in debth for those who are interested https://www.omicsonline.org/trauma-and- ... ?aid=12096
I actually have spent one of the long rainy weekends listening to the recordings from the Monroe Institute from https://www.monroeinstitute.org/free-audio-downloads and despite it being fascinating I thought it was just a confirmation of the multiple egos theory. The participants would achieve certain 'focus levels' (similar to trance in hypnotherapy) and then they would change voices or even accents believing that they stepped aside and other beings took over. Those 'other entities' were claiming to occupy the same body and they were claiming to be more ‘advanced’ and having access to advanced knowledge, however, they have never answered any direct questions in regards to it. In each case they would navigate their way out of answering direct questions by needing to go or saying that they WILL provide it (later). ’Miranon’s story is a typical example of it. I suspect that is because none of the multiple egos those participants hold have a greater intellectual capacity than the actual person (if that make sense), and that in itself is the evidence that we are dealing with one, incredibly complex, subconscious system of one human being. This is an area that some skilled psychoanalysts need to start looking at before we will have more of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UINhAjB2ry4 Psychoanalysts used to say that majority of society are neurotic as we do not process stuff, just push it down into the subconsciouses if it does not agree with our idea of ourselves or our reality... who knows how that could manifest...and OBE, alien abduction? I may be totally wrong (I would love to be, as nihilism is depressing) but at at this time this is my view.

I am looking forward to your responses. :-)

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:50 pm

Hi, Mara! Welcome to the forum. :wave:

Mara wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think people who report having OBEs, NDEs, 'shamanic experiences' or even alien encounters genuinely believe these are 'real' phenomena (especially if the world listens to them in awe) but that may not be different from people with schizophrenia believing that the voices in their heads are actual people.
I concur. The skeptic would not believe such an experience was "real," since it's illogical. I offer as proof the fact that I've suffered from hypnagogic hallucinations. One hallucination was a 6-foot-tall insectile creature standing next to my bed, and my first thought upon seeing it was, "I must be hallucinating. You can't be real, since it would violate the square-cube law."

One intensive sleep study later, I was diagnosed with fractured sleep stages caused by chronic pain. Once prescribed the appropriate medication, the hallucinations stopped occurring. The only time I had a moment of doubt was when the hallucination was not monstrous, but human, since it's remotely possible that a human being might be in my bedroom at night. Even then, I instantly noticed my dogs were not barking, so I dismissed it.

Mara wrote:Psychoanalysts used to say that majority of society are neurotic as we do not process stuff, just push it down into the subconsciouses if it does not agree with our idea of ourselves or our reality... who knows how that could manifest...and OBE, alien abduction? I may be totally wrong (I would love to be, as nihilism is depressing) but at at this time this is my view.
I agree with you here, too. I learned a long time ago to take time for introspection, forcibly dragging my "demons" out into the light for self-analysis. It's not easy to be honest with yourself...unless you accept the fact that you're human and, thus, make mistakes. And that's perfectly ok, as long as you learn from them.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:41 pm

nothing wrong there ...a bad childhood often leads to obe experiences...struggles are often chosen to force a soul to search for meaning and purpose..." a soul only evolves from suffering'' ---is a core teaching ...it is only from suffering that people usually search for answers....finding answers to our existence is the purpose for us being here......I too have been out of body and had strange experiences and precognitive dreams that came true...dramatic events are often precognitive because of the shock value and high energy they provoke...you can't learn about our multi-dimensional existence without strange experiences.....it is how it works...scientists and doctors have obes....they are real...
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:50 pm

gorgeous wrote:." a soul only evolves from suffering'' ---is a core teaching ..
of whom? :lol:

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:17 am

Sure, but you know... scientists and doctors have OBEs because they are also just humans despite their profession. I don’t think there is multidimensional reality, there is just our mind trying to survive in a nihilistic world. We have a complex survival skill to trick ourselves into believing there is more to life so we don’t end up with a mass suicide.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:47 am

Hello, and thank you, nice to talk to some people who are not defensive. I am trying to figure out the quoting system so bear with me...

[quote="Nikki Nyx"]One hallucination was a 6-foot-tall insectile creature standing next to my bed, and my first thought upon seeing it was, "I must be hallucinating. You can't be real, since it would violate the square-cube law."

One intensive sleep study later, I was diagnosed with fractured sleep stages caused by chronic pain. Once prescribed the appropriate medication, the hallucinations stopped occurring."

I think that is fascinating from a psychological point of view. An "insectile creature" is often reported by people with so called alien abductions as the mandit, mantis and the Indigenous people in central Australia call it the Mamoo. It suppose to be 'a medical alien responsible for healing' I am in Australia and I actually have some Indigenous friends who remember their traditional legends. I am thinking more that this must be some time of an archetype in our minds that we have been caring for generations. Maybe the psych have some type of a blue print or it's just something our brain does under specific conditions such as when there is a health issue (like chronic pain) hence the assumption it's a healing creature. I wish this was properly studied.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:55 am

Mara wrote:Hello, and thank you, nice to talk to some people who are not defensive. I am trying to figure out the quoting system so bear with me...
Click the quote this message, using the inverted commas button and look at the way the brackets work. Generally this is automatic for the entire post you are quoting from.
Forum member's name wrote: Their words


In general, the forum members have read the scientific understanding of OBE's.

How the Brain Creates Out-of-Body Experiences
https://www.livescience.com/41128-out-o ... ained.html



Mara wrote: I am in Australia.
I'm in Sydney. There are about three or four Aussies who are regular posters.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:20 am

Mara wrote:Hello, and thank you, nice to talk to some people who are not defensive. I am trying to figure out the quoting system so bear with me...

Nikki Nyx wrote:One hallucination was a 6-foot-tall insectile creature standing next to my bed, and my first thought upon seeing it was, "I must be hallucinating. You can't be real, since it would violate the square-cube law."

One intensive sleep study later, I was diagnosed with fractured sleep stages caused by chronic pain. Once prescribed the appropriate medication, the hallucinations stopped occurring.


I think that is fascinating from a psychological point of view. An "insectile creature" is often reported by people with so called alien abductions as the mandit, mantis and the Indigenous people in central Australia call it the Mamoo. It suppose to be 'a medical alien responsible for healing' I am in Australia and I actually have some Indigenous friends who remember their traditional legends. I am thinking more that this must be some time of an archetype in our minds that we have been caring for generations. Maybe the psych have some type of a blue print or it's just something our brain does under specific conditions such as when there is a health issue (like chronic pain) hence the assumption it's a healing creature. I wish this was properly studied.

To add to Matthew instructions, use [/quote] to end the excerpt(s) you pick, and begin additional ones with [quote] (use same end bracket). Also explore the menu at the top of the 'Full Editor' when you reply, lots of goodies there. ;)


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Welcome to SSF, Mara. 8-)
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mara wrote:Hello, and thank you, nice to talk to some people who are not defensive. I am trying to figure out the quoting system so bear with me...
Click the quote this message, using the inverted commas button and look at the way the brackets work. Generally this is automatic for the entire post you are quoting from.

In general, the forum members have read the scientific understanding of OBE's.

How the Brain Creates Out-of-Body Experiences
https://www.livescience.com/41128-out-o ... ained.html

Mara wrote: I am in Australia.
I'm in Sydney. There are about three or four Aussies who are regular posters.


Thanks heaps Matthew!

My background is both as I changed careers at some point. I have done humanities and the so call hard sciences. I have worked in counselling, behaviour change programs and trauma informed practice. On personal level I respect philosophy that keeps me going with these interests.

I am up tropical north at the moment but have been traveling for a while now. Sydney has some interesting people!

The psychology area has a lot to offer but the issue is that due to political climate the psych has moved onto Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) approaches and left the psycho-dynamic and psychoanalysis modalities behind. I think we need to recognise that often traumas belong to the irrational and emotional part of the brain (the right brain) and the assumption that human beings can 'think themeless out' of emotional pain by adjusting thoughts in their minds etc. is naive and selling those who suffer short. We are way more complex than that.

In U.S. they are trailing MDMA assisted psychotherapy by organisations such as MAPS http://www.maps.org/research/mdma These trails are approved by FDA. The results are very good and that is for cases defined as 'stubborn' (due to ethics approval requirements). Individuals who have explored years of conservative therapies with no positive results are seeing very good results with just two sessions. Some of the testimonials use phrases along the lines of 'it was like a waterfall of pain poured out of me' MDMA and other substances known as psychedelics dissolve the 'ego' - the fear boundary that is in our conscious mind and prevents accessing what hides in the sub-conscious. I suspect sub-conscious has a vast amount of information and storage of emotional memory that has been ignored for way too long. To me understanding, the so called 'right brain' relationship between the conscious and subconscious and phenomena such as OBEs and alien abductions are closely related and fascinating!

Btw in Melbourne there is an organisation https://www.prism.org.au trying to do what MAPS do in U.S.

Looking forward to many discussions with you!

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:27 am

Mara wrote: My background is both as I changed careers at some point. I have done humanities and the so call hard sciences. I have worked in counselling, behaviour change programs and trauma informed practice. On personal level I respect philosophy that keeps me going with these interests.
I started off in Anthropology. I'm now a retired production accountant and manager in the Entertainment industry. My dad was a member of the Australian Skeptics and psychiatrist in the RAAF and private practice. He ran a 100 bed psych hospital in Sydney and was censor for the RANZCP.

Mara wrote: In U.S. they are trailing MDMA assisted psychotherapy by organisations such as MAPS

Dad used to give patients Sandoz LSD! I forgot the reason. It was something to do with talk therapy.
LSD.jpg
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mara wrote: My background is both as I changed careers at some point. I have done humanities and the so call hard sciences. I have worked in counselling, behaviour change programs and trauma informed practice. On personal level I respect philosophy that keeps me going with these interests.
I started off in Anthropology. I'm now a retired production accountant and manager in the Entertainment industry. My dad was a member of the Australian Skeptics and psychiatrist in the RAAF and private practice. He ran a 100 bed psych hospital in Sydney and was censor for the RANZCP.

Mara wrote: In U.S. they are trailing MDMA assisted psychotherapy by organisations such as MAPS

Dad used to give patients Sandoz LSD! I forgot the reason. It was something to do with talk therapy.
LSD.jpg



Ha! Your life must have been interesting! Anthropology is great. I believe the Indigenous of the world have had a very good understanding of psychology simply because they lived in such close proximity with each other, observing each others from birth till death, they were not focused on distractions the way we are. We forgot who we are. There is so much emphasis on regularly exercising but so little on maintaining our mental health. Generally people seek help when things get very bad. The Indigenous had rituals, practices that were all focused on processing traumas as they occurred...a bit like going to the gym on a weekly basis :-) Many of the traumas get forgotten by people but the affects continue and manifest in people's behaviour. It usually starts with an adult recognising that it is strange how they respond to something and they have no idea why. This is where the quest for recovering the past starts. Sometimes it's very difficult to uncover something that could have just occurred once, when a person was 2 years old for instance, but that something is like a stain on the canvas of the mind that always bothers the person as it's unprocessed.

I have been interested in the topic of consciousness studies for almost 10 years now. I have read a lot including some very controversial stuff that you can find on Skeptiko.com but in the end I have taken a 360 degree turn to the rational world sort of speaking. I worry about what the New Age is doing to people's understanding. I even saw some ridiculous videos in U.S. with mothers who have pale children with blue eyes coming forward stating that they gave birth to half aliens who will save the world...and the audience is mesmorised with is how blue their eyes are! I hope we won't end up with another wave of 'superior race' like the one Hitter was trying to convince people of... People will always cling to anything that gives them higher meaning and power.

The mainstream have ignored the subconscious for too long but I am hoping the world is changing now.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Gord » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:53 am

:wave: Welcome to our nuthouse, Mara.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:56 am

Gord wrote::wave: Welcome to our nuthouse, Mara.


Haha! Thanks Gord. It sounds like a place for me :D :mrgreen:

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:04 am

On a separate note guys...

Has there ever been anyone who committed half of his/her life propagating this idea that OBEs/NDEs/UFO contacts are real (by writing books, charging people money for workshops etc.) and THEN, with time, realised that they were wrong, and stated that publicly? I wonder, if that's a done deal, once you in it - that's it, there is no way back regardless own intelectual /emotional growth... If that was me I would worry about facing all sorts of accusations and requests for refunds...I actually have no idea how would the consumer law treat that... Good, I have never charged anyone for my philosophical sweats ;-)

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:14 am

That's actually an interesting question. From what I've seen, sincere believers are rather restrained and it's usually the hucksters and charlatans who make calculated deception a business. And they'd only denounce it if that would be more lucrative than their initial scam.
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:21 am

scrmbldggs wrote:That's actually an interesting question. From what I've seen, sincere believers are rather restrained and it's usually the hucksters and charlatans who make it a business of calculated deception. And they'd only denounce it if that would be more lucrative than their initial scam.


What if a sincere believer changed their beliefs years later... It could be a bit like joining a cult for a while and then gaining freedom again. People break out sometimes.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:41 am

Mara wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:That's actually an interesting question. From what I've seen, sincere believers are rather restrained and it's usually the hucksters and charlatans who make it a business of calculated deception. And they'd only denounce it if that would be more lucrative than their initial scam.


What if a sincere believer changed their beliefs years later... It could be a bit like joining a cult for a while and then gaining freedom again. People break out sometimes.

They do. And most likely would not have to worry about any consumer laws.
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:00 am

I hope I am not double posting as I am trying again with this post.

Since the evidence for verification of OBEs is marginal and the premonitionary (I don't think that's an actual term but you get me lol) experiences have such a poor verification and confirmation by others rate, and allegedly only occur in whatever the 'heightened state' means (by the way, did Nicholls ever explain why and how was he 'heightened' during his adult OBE five days prior to Soho bombing? Can the state of 'heightening' be induced?) I will stick to Darwinism and understanding such as from gestalt psychology. With that in mind, I will park this old but good video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3c-V7cFrXw The first 5 minutes clarify things, it's not a hardcore materialsim but it's also not an airy-fairy new age, just a survival mechanism.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:19 am

mara------“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.”
― Albert Einstein ------------------------------------- “If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”
― Nikola Tesla -------------------------------------------------"If quantum mechanics hasn’t profoundly shocked you, you haven’t understood it yet. Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.” -― Niels Bohr, Essays 1932-1957 on Atomic Physics and Human Knowledge
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:20 am

Here's a Visual Guide to the 10 Dimensions of Reality - Ultraculture



https://ultraculture.org/blog/2014/12/1 ... s-reality/



Dec 16, 2014 - According to superstring theory, there are at least 10 dimensions in the universe (M-theory actually suggests that there are 11 dimensions to spacetime; bosonic string theories suggest 26 dimensions).
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:16 am

Thank you Gorgeous,

I just would like to point out that you quoted few guys, two human beings that got few things right (maybe, to the extent we still do not know) but it does not mean they got it all correct - Do you realise that? What power do those quotes have in your life? In other words, how much power have you given to those human beings (just human beings) in your personal understanding of reality, and why? These are the questions sceptic should always start with.

I am aware of the energy/frequency, multi-universe and multi-dimensions based theories, which are exactly that 'theories'. If you read my previous posts this is something I have been reading and researching for almost 10 years, while educating myself through universities so I have a correct understanding of what I am questioning in the first place, which by the way, many New Agers do not do. It has been a very long time since those quotes have been spoken… at some point even the most converted New Agers will start asking for actual tangible proof, people will not be just hoping forever, the clock is ticking.

Personally, I think the issue is that people like Sheldrake, Nicolls, Tom Campbell etc, Pim van Lommel have made such a huge leap in their conclusions from hardcode materialism to hardcode panpsychism - yet, there is plenty of grey area in between.

Firstly, mainstream is not as hardcode materialism based as what people like Sheldrake claim. I feel sorry for him, as he must have lived and worked during some difficult times when humans were responding to religion and in order to do that they went to the other extreme. In a way, this is his trauma that he got stuck on. Even Dawkins published correction to his 'The God Delusion' apologising that his concept of a 'selfish gene' came across as having anthropocentric characteristics yet that was not his goal, he never subscribed to social Darwinism for instance. Sheldrake literally has spent his entire life fighting his imaginary interpretation of mainstream - sad when you think about it.

If you actually read any peer reviewed journals in sciences there will be a specific hypothesis, limitations to the study, and discussions, because proper scientists understand that reality is always greater and more complex than any theory, simply because no two moments are ever the same, we can only derive patterns. However, that does not mean we straight the way need to jump to airy-fairy, chakra woo, alien world explanations. In philosophy of science the empiricism and epistemology are equally important. Psychology is a component of epistemology as scientists are humans.

A simple example:
Imagine, you are a parent that is trying to explain numbers to a child who has not had exposure to any mathematics yet. You are trying to explain the concepts of 'one', 'two' and 'zero'. Typically, a parent will take two apples, sit at the table with a child, and say 'Here you have two apples, honey' Then the parent will hide one apple under the table and say 'Now you have one apple' and then the parent will hide that apple under the table as well and say 'Now you have zero apples' - Do you knows what the child will do? Look under the table and say '…but mum/dad, there are two apples under the table!' - that is because every definition in the human language and theory we have developed till date is contextual. Zero of what? When? - these are the questions the child ponders in their simple way even if they cannot articulate it yet.

Reality will always be greater than any man made theory, there will always be exceptions. An exception to Newtonian physics is quantum theory BUT it does not mean that one replaces the other, or is more valid than the other, it just means that the reality is complex and dynamic.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:51 am

I am wondering if anyone here has had any interest in Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's work? I actually gave the Emperor's New Mind a go, there is a summary of it on you tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVq39QbFQXE not the best quality video tho.

Hameroff's arguments regarding paramecium, and psylosibin studies are good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUVot-4GPM and
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/con ... -hierarchy

Saying that, I read his article https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4513001188 in which he makes this statement:

"2.2. Conscious moments and computation

Consciousness has often been argued to be a sequence of discrete moments. William James [27] described the “specious present, the short duration of which we are immediately and incessantly sensible” (though James was vague about duration, and also described a continual ‘stream of consciousness’). The “perceptual moment” theory of Stroud [28] described consciousness as a series of discrete events, like sequential frames of a movie (modern film and video present 24 to 72 frames per second, 24 to 72 Hertz, ‘Hz’). Consciousness is also seen as sequences of discrete events in Buddhism, trained meditators describing distinct “flickerings” in their experience of pure undifferentiated awareness [29]. Buddhist texts portray consciousness as “momentary collections of mental phenomena”, and as “distinct, unconnected and impermanent moments that perish as soon as they arise”. Buddhist writings even quantify the frequency of conscious moments. For example the Sarvaastivaadins [30] described 6,480,000 “moments” in 24 hours (an average of one “moment” per 13.3 ms, 75 Hz), and some Chinese Buddhists as one “thought” per 20 ms (50 Hz)."

I thought this was interesting and went on and checked the references in regards to those Buddhist meditators and they are not exactly quality - one of them (number 29) is just 'Tart CT. Personal communication and information gathered from “Buddha-1 newsnet”; 1995.'

I would love more info on it!

Should I start a new thread?

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:53 pm

people have experienced the other dimensions themselves...scientist will too eventually...the govt has trained people in obe's...they know it's real....and Mara...can you prove you exist or have a mind? no one here has been able to do that...they must all be imaginary ....
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:16 pm

Can you please point me to the research that shows people have in fact experienced OBEs as an objective phenomena? 10 years for me and I can only find theories and very marginal, open to interpretations experimental results such as through Sheldrake or IONS. Why are they only marginal, why not concrete by now? I actually know a person who gets OBEs and he himself believes they are illusionary. Many people have OBEs and do not fall for the New Age mambo jumbo.

Yes, pick up the most basic book on introduction to psychology, psychology of life, child psychology or psychology of aging that will present you with vast number of experiments showing how the mind makes a real objectively measurable impact. A classic one are cases of suicide i.e. an animal (human) with an inherent instinct to survive overrides it because of what the mind makes him/her believe in. Eating disorders are evidence of the impact of the mind as well where people actually die of starvation in the name of incorrect perception and understanding, cases of brainwashing when a person goes against own interests in the name of the mind processes such as a suicide bomber - religion exists in the minds as well etc. Psychology knowledge is used everyday in marketing and advertising becouse it works, the entire industries behind consumerism are based on understanding how our minds work, the results are measurable and statistically collected every day unlike with OBEs.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:25 pm

can you show me a mind? what evidence do you want for obes? I've asked what evidence would prove to doubters that God exists...they have never answered...
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:42 pm

I will explain this again. Your body as a matter exists objectively, the mind does not, but it makes impact on your decisions in regards to what you will do with that body of yours just as a difference between a person who lives a normal life and a person who gets brainwashed by a terrorist group and blows oneself up - they both have bodies but their minds have different processes, in the philosophy of logic that is called deduction. Do you understand the difference between a person who is a vegetable in the hospital, and someone optimally healthy functioning every day, interacting with people? My argument has been that OBEs are in the mind that is subjective. I am arguing those who are trying to believe that OBEs are outside of the mind and objective. If you are saying that OBEs are on the same level of objectivity like the mind then we can call them a mental state just as schizophrenia, eating disorder, dreams or suicide ideations, nothing more. People like Nicolls say that OBEs are objectively measurable that is he actually accesses an objective information through OBEs and he quotes his research with Sheldrake and Dean Radin as evidence, yet those findings are marginal and open to interpretation.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:49 pm

no evidence obes are mental state...show evidence....what evidence do you want for obes?..where exactly is the mind?
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:05 pm

I suspect I want the same what most of the sceptics want - I would like a demonstration (not a story or a theory) of a person having an OBE where that person accesses information that is not avalible to them (from another location or future such as, say lottery numbers) while recorded on a camera in a lab with scientists not a bunch of friends who do not feel like coming forward to confirm it AND I would like the results to be concrete, verifiable not marginal, say 8 out of 10. I want those people to show as how they do it not tell us about it after they have done it and ask we just believe them.

In regards to the mind I have explained it already. When a ‘mind sick’ person commits a suicide they are objectively dead today, tomorrow, forever.

All the best.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:21 pm

where is proof of a mind? you would say that person on the future had a lucky guess...I have had dreams of future events..the death of Michael Jackson and of a hurricane that developed months before they happened as well as events in my own life...it's real...
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:32 pm

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Mara » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:08 pm

I would say Gorgeous that it’s a very nice story but that’s it. Why don’t you pop into your OBE state tonight and visit me, you can post on this forum tomorrow how I look for example, or anything for that matter? There you go a simple, cheap and efficient way to prove your super skills :-D

In terms of the mind questions I don’t think you are registering the answers.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:35 pm

Mara wrote:Hello, and thank you, nice to talk to some people who are not defensive. I am trying to figure out the quoting system so bear with me...
No worries! BB Code is similar to HTML in that it requires enclosing tags, like this:

Code: Select all

[quote="Nikki Nyx"]No worries![/quote]
...which will appear like this:
Nikki Nyx wrote:No worries!


Nesting quotes are a bit trickier and slightly counterintuitive. Basically, the tag that corresponds to the last quote in the nest comes first, like this:

Code: Select all

[quote="Nikki Nyx"][quote="Mara"]I am trying to figure out the quoting system so bear with me...[/quote] No worries![/quote]
...which will appear like this:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Mara wrote:I am trying to figure out the quoting system so bear with me...
No worries!
It does take some getting used to, especially if you're quoting a quote. I still screw it up and have to search for missing tags. :mrgreen:

Mara wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:One hallucination was a 6-foot-tall insectile creature standing next to my bed, and my first thought upon seeing it was, "I must be hallucinating. You can't be real, since it would violate the square-cube law."

One intensive sleep study later, I was diagnosed with fractured sleep stages caused by chronic pain. Once prescribed the appropriate medication, the hallucinations stopped occurring."
I think that is fascinating from a psychological point of view. An "insectile creature" is often reported by people with so called alien abductions as the mandit, mantis and the Indigenous people in central Australia call it the Mamoo. It suppose to be 'a medical alien responsible for healing' I am in Australia and I actually have some Indigenous friends who remember their traditional legends. I am thinking more that this must be some time of an archetype in our minds that we have been caring for generations. Maybe the psych have some type of a blue print or it's just something our brain does under specific conditions such as when there is a health issue (like chronic pain) hence the assumption it's a healing creature. I wish this was properly studied.
That's fascinating! Although, I didn't get the impression of healing from my insectile hallucination, but menace. It looked like it had been designed by H.R. Giger after a three-day bender. *shudder*
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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:38 pm

gorgeous wrote:nothing wrong there ...a bad childhood often leads to obe experiences...struggles are often chosen to force a soul to search for meaning and purpose..." a soul only evolves from suffering'' ---is a core teaching ...it is only from suffering that people usually search for answers....finding answers to our existence is the purpose for us being here......I too have been out of body and had strange experiences and precognitive dreams that came true...dramatic events are often precognitive because of the shock value and high energy they provoke...you can't learn about our multi-dimensional existence without strange experiences.....it is how it works...scientists and doctors have obes....they are real...
(font="Poltergeist") It's back! (/font) Are you going to show us your OBE vacation slides? :wgrin:
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"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:00 pm

Mara wrote:The psychology area has a lot to offer but the issue is that due to political climate the psych has moved onto Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) approaches and left the psycho-dynamic and psychoanalysis modalities behind. I think we need to recognise that often traumas belong to the irrational and emotional part of the brain (the right brain) and the assumption that human beings can 'think themeless out' of emotional pain by adjusting thoughts in their minds etc. is naive and selling those who suffer short. We are way more complex than that.
I've found the principles of Dialectic Behavior Therapy (DBT) to be much more useful than CBT, since it's based in neural plasticity. I have a 40-year history of Major Depressive Disorder, but no class of antidepressants has ever worked for me. Tricyclics make me feel dissociative and emotionless. SSRIs work only temporarily, then cause a rebound effect. SNRIs increase suicidal ideation to a frightening degree. And I can't take MAOIs because I have orthostatic hypotension. But the principles of DBT have been quite effective.
DBT specifically focuses on providing therapeutic skills in four key areas. First, mindfulness focuses on improving an individual's ability to accept and be present in the current moment. Second, distress tolerance is geared toward increasing a person’s tolerance of negative emotion, rather than trying to escape from it. Third, emotion regulation covers strategies to manage and change intense emotions that are causing problems in a person’s life. Fourth, interpersonal effectiveness consists of techniques that allow a person to communicate with others in a way that is assertive, maintains self-respect, and strengthens relationships.
It has some similarities to CBT, and at least one scholarly study asserts that CBT reduces depressive symptoms while DBT reduces anxiety symptoms. However, since anxiety is a large part of depression, managing anxiety is paramount, IMO, since it's the root cause of depressive episodes. (Managing anxiety, for me, also has the benefit of decreasing the level of chronic pain from fibromyalgia and myofascial pain disease. It doesn't do much for the RA pain, unfortunately.)
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:21 pm

gorgeous wrote:can you show me a mind?
Yes. A functional MRI will show the brain's response to sensory stimuli, and that response is different for everyone, so it's not merely a functional organ response, but based on the whole (the mind) being greater than the sum of its parts (the various brain structures). It's been conclusively proven by repeated experimentation that consciousness is created by the claustrum; it's the "conductor" and the various brain structures comprise the "orchestra."
gorgeous wrote:what evidence do you want for obes?
The conclusions of a peer-reviewed empiric experiment (longitudinal and double blind) that proves the phenomenon is real.
gorgeous wrote:I've asked what evidence would prove to doubters that God exists...they have never answered...
Yes, we have. Here's one process by which you might prove god exists:
• Convince him/her/it to materialize.
• Request the performance of a miracle.
• Rule out any/all scientific explanations for both materialization and miracle.
I await your evidence with bated breath.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:59 pm

Mara, to Gorgeous, wrote:Can you please point me to the research that shows people have in fact experienced OBEs as an objective phenomena?
You won't get any coherent answer from Gorgeous. Gorgeous was a cult member of he late 1960s "Seth the wise alien spirit" channelling cult created by Jane Roberts. Like all remaining members of that cult, Gorgeous is in his 70s and quite senile. He simply copies and pastes rubbish from the cult's website.

Gorgeous's posts are limited to drive by propaganda, repeating "Seth is real", "Alien Lizard overlords are real", "The illuminati is real", "remote viewing is real" and so on. Gorgeous doesn't know what half these claims even mean anymore and will never go into more depth.

I don't think we have had anything new or even a newly structured sentence from Gorgeous, for almost five years.

Gorgeous wrote:Seth has said we have multiple selves in other dimensions, all part of us...

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=28815&p=620611&hilit=seth#p620611

Gorgeous wrote:planets don't exist ...an illusion ---------Seth-----"Your planetary systems exist at once, simultaneously, both in time and in space.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=28955&p=621572&hilit=seth#p621572

Gorgeous wrote:Seth has said everything has consciousness...even a table...all part of God ...so it makes sense....

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=28341&p=620323&hilit=seth#p620323

Gorgeous wrote:Seth took over Jane Robert's body to speak with her vocal chords...and when people have nde's at times they have seen low grade spirits take over the bodies of drunks

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=28765&p=613470&hilit=seth#p613470

Gorgeous is kept here by the skeptics because, sometimes he says something so stupid, it is incredibly funny.

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Re: Graham Nicholls OBE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:35 pm

nik you would say it was a mirage or other , not God...miracles have been verified and confirmed by doctors... mara.the brain is not the mind...what section of the brain is the mind exactly?...not labeled 'mind' on any diagram of the brain.... ----------Location of the mind remains a mystery | New Scientist



https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... a-mystery/
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