Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for stuff

[Zanders]

For a while I have doubted any psychic or paranormal phenomenon, always finding a rational "logical" explanation for the events instead. But lately I have been finding way too many events that seem unexplainable by conventional scientific logic. Some of the events that I find the hardest to explain are the ones I will link to below.

The first paragraph here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Sw ... c_accounts

And the second one here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedenborg ... Opposition

After that, here are some "miraculous cures", which could be easier to debunk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_ ... 4.91ugorje

There are also many events like this that are non religion specific, I am in no way trying to push anyone's religious beliefs.

Next is something related to a man named "Wallace Fard Muhammad", the man that started "The Nation of Islam" (which barely has anything to do with Islam and is a racist cult) The information he gives is startlingly accurate for a man like him to know so long ago (unless I am misinformed)

""In 1930, when Master Fard Muhammad came, He told us that, “The total area of the land and water of the planet Earth is 196,940,000 square miles.” He said, “The circumference of the planet Earth is 24,896 miles,” and, all of us had to memorize this. “The diameter of the earth is 7,926 miles; the area of land is 57,255,000 square miles; the area of water is 139,685,000 square miles.” He said “The Pacific Ocean covers 68,634,000 square miles and the Atlantic Ocean covers 41,321,000 square miles.”

“The Indian Ocean,” He said, “covers 29,430,000 square miles, and the lakes and rivers cover 1,000,000 square miles. The hills and the mountains cover 14,000,000 square miles; the islands are 1,910,000 square miles; and the deserts are 4,861,000 square miles. Mount Everest is 29,141 feet high, and the producing land is 29,000,000 square miles. The earth weighs 6 sextillion tons—a ‘6' followed by 21 zeros—and is 93,000,000 miles from the sun, traveling at the rate of 1,037 1/3 miles per hour. Light travels at the rate of 186,000 miles per second, and sound travels at the rate of 1,120 feet per second. The diameter of the sun is 853,000 miles.”

We were just students under a Master Teacher who asked us to study. Then, Master Fard Muhammad began to tell us about the distance of the planets and the life that is on the planets. He taught Elijah Muhammad, who was from the cotton fields of Georgia, and, who only went to the fourth grade of school. If you compare what Master Fard Muhammad said in 1930 (now 79 years ago), with the dimensions that the scholars have given, every year they have gotten closer and closer, until now their computations are similar with Master Fard Muhammad's. He is the man Who taught Elijah Muhammad, and came to raise us up from a dead level and make us rulers over those who once ruled us—not by guns and sticks, but by giving us a superior knowledge."


There seem to be many events like this out there, not confirming any specific religion or anything like that. But it certainly raises questions and makes me doubt my once purely rational view of how the world works. There does seem to be some sort of "paranormal" forces out there. I am wondering how these could be explained by any conventional logic, because I am stumped.

[Matthew Ellard]

There seem to be many events like this out there, not confirming any specific religion or anything like that. But it certainly raises questions and makes me doubt my once purely rational view of how the world works. There does seem to be some sort of "paranormal" forces out there. I am wondering how these could be explained by any conventional logic, because I am stumped.

The best way to deal with this is to look at, in depth, the best evidence you have of one paranormal event taking place and then methodically dealing with the rest.   Let us first look at the Swedenborg evidence you offered.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Sw ... c_accounts
The wikipedia article offers as evidence " ..... in 1758 when Swedenborg visited Queen Louisa Ulrika of Sweden, who asked him to tell her something about her deceased brother Augustus William. The next day, Swedenborg whispered something in her ear that turned the Queen pale and she explained that this was something only she and her brother could know about"

I can't say what the exact circumstances of the paranormal activity were exactly in this scenario but it seems to be the old magician's trick of "cold reading".  "Cold reading" is a stage illusion where a magician seems to ask unrelated questions but then throws back at the "mark" (victim, sucker) a piece of detailed information, never mentioned before.  The magician is actually "fishing" for tid bits of information when he asks his question, but human psychology means that the "mark" doesn't perceive this.  Here is a good explanation of this magic trick.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

 The next bit of evidence from Swedenborg's wikipedia page is " July 29, 1759, when during a dinner in Gothenburg, he excitedly told the party at six o' clock that there was a fire in Stockholm (405 km away), that it consumed his neighbour's home and was threatening his own. Two hours later, he exclaimed with relief that the fire stopped three doors from his home. Two days later, reports confirmed every statement to the precise hour that Swedenborg first expressed the information
This is is lovely but a bit scary.  When a lord is out of town and his next door neighbour's house burns down when the lord says it will, it suggests something else is going on rather than "paranormal activity".  (I also remind you that Sweden was a war with Russia in 1759)  However I will follow the views of Kant on this that neither of us can explain what happened and as the experiment cannot be repeated we don't have to.  
.  
May I suggest you search the internet for some more recent example of paranormal activities that you think are hard to explain.   Let us all look at them together.   You seem to be sitting on the fence at the moment which is fine.  Lets see if we can show you the methods we use here when applying skeptical theory and critical thinking ( plus our general knowledge of tricks, illusions and stage magic) Who knows?  You may prove us wrong!

[Zanders]

I doubt the other psychic claims, it was just the vision of the fire that fascinated me. If you read more about Emanuel Swedenborg it is highly unlikely that he would set anyone's house on fire. Also, the fire started a long time after he was gone, so I don't see how he could have had it planned. He did not predict the fire, he just turned pale and started worrying when the fire started, and was somehow able to sigh in relief when it went out, knowing just how far away it was from his house.

[Matthew Ellard]

I doubt the other psychic claims, it was just the vision of the fire that fascinated me. If you read more about Emanuel Swedenborg it is highly unlikely that he would set anyone's house on fire. Also, the fire started a long time after he was gone, so I don't see how he could have had it planned. He did not predict the fire, he just turned pale and started worrying when the fire started, and was somehow able to sigh in relief when it went out, knowing just how far away it was from his house.

Well I'm not saying he did it.  I'm suggesting that it is more probable that he was aware that someone else was going to do it, than the paranormal theory that a burning house sent him a psychic message.   The jails are full of arsonists who pay other people to burn down houses while they have an alibi elsewhere.  There are no tested examples of psychic messages.  I am applying Occam's razor.

This is why I asked you to look at modern examples.  It allows us to look in depth at what happened or is happening.  

[OlegTheBatty]

I doubt the other psychic claims, it was just the vision of the fire that fascinated me. If you read more about Emanuel Swedenborg it is highly unlikely that he would set anyone's house on fire. Also, the fire started a long time after he was gone, so I don't see how he could have had it planned. He did not predict the fire, he just turned pale and started worrying when the fire started, and was somehow able to sigh in relief when it went out, knowing just how far away it was from his house.

Well I'm not saying he did it.  I'm suggesting that it is more probable that he was aware that someone else was going to do it, than the paranormal theory that a burning house sent him a psychic message.   The jails are full of arsonists who pay other people to burn down houses while they have an alibi elsewhere.  There are no tested examples of psychic messages.  I am applying Occam's razor.

This is why I asked you to look at modern examples.  It allows us to look in depth at what happened or is happening.  

Exactly.
In the fire example, we have no way of determining if we have all the pertinent facts. Almost anything can be made to seem paranormal if key facts are withheld, or otherwise missing. By citing a current example, there is an opportunity to actually investigate; in the Swedenborg examples, one can only speculate.

[Zanders]

Very true. I will dig for some more information on this event and see if I can get any details that would point more in either direction. Hopefully there is more information and writing on the event from the time. Thanks for the responses.

[Zanders]

Here is a little more detail on the event

http://newearth.org/frontier/esfire.html

It appears that the specifics he gave were confirmed, but this story could still be fake, since nobody from that time can confirm or deny any of it. I will continue to look for actual documented evidence of this.

[Matthew Ellard]

It appears that the specifics he gave were confirmed, but this story could still be fake, .

Well at least we have discovered "motive" for Swedenborgs statement concerning the fire at a party.  
they were curious to meet with a man who claimed to be able to see into the spiritual world, began to write accounts of Swedenborg and his habits

I don't think you will have much luck finding more information as it is so old and in Sweden.  It may be worth doing a search on Emmanuel Kant as he made a comment about this event at the time.  I'd try google combinations of "Kant" and "Swedenborg" and words like paranormal.  Unfortunately the internet tends to have gaps for less popular issues.  

[A-number]

Not to mess with Master Matthew, I just wanted to let the OP know that he/she might want to take a look at Kabbalah on the side of his/her rational research. I attended a lecture last week and it seem that what we perceive is only 1% vs. that which we don't, which is considered by Kabbalists as the unseen world and that is 99 % of of the flow stream of life. Kabbalah will help you understand lot that seem impossible and for lack of finding The origin to it, some of us classify it under a politically correct umbrella which easily compatible with the physical/ visible.
Don't be afraid to check it out as many great minds have studied it such as Newton, Pythagoras, Edison, Einstein, etc.

[Zanders]

I would like to add that the claims I posted about Wallace Fard Muhammad have been debunked elsewhere, so please ignore them.

[A-number]

Trust me brother/sister, anything that muslimists have to say or claim I have no interest in it whatsoever.

[Zanders]

Trust me brother/sister, anything that muslimists have to say or claim I have no interest in it whatsoever.

Well, in truth the group that this man started are not really Islam. They are more of an odd racist cult that embraces parts of Islam. Look up "The Nation of Islam" on wikipedia for more information on that, it's pretty freaky. Also, as I stated earlier his "miraculous knowledge" was debunked.

[A-number]

Well, in truth the group that this man started are not really Islam. They are more of an odd racist cult that embraces parts of Islam.

"Parts of islam" (I say this for them not you), as if any of it is rose-y.

Look up "The Nation of Islam" on wikipedia for more information on that, it's pretty freaky. Also, as I stated earlier his "miraculous knowledge" was debunked.

Muslims are racist and discriminating when in their turf. They might, when abroad, claim they are not in order to apeal to any potential recruit but in truth, they are.

[Zanders]

Well, in truth the group that this man started are not really Islam. They are more of an odd racist cult that embraces parts of Islam.

"Parts of islam" (I say this for them not you), as if any of it is rose-y.

Look up "The Nation of Islam" on wikipedia for more information on that, it's pretty freaky. Also, as I stated earlier his "miraculous knowledge" was debunked.

Muslims are racist and discriminating when in their turf. They might, when abroad, claim they are not in order to apeal to any potential recruit but in truth, they are.

I will take your word for it, since I have read that you were involved in the community for over 40 years. but anyway, let's not make this thread in to a discussion of Islam. I have researched it quite a bit in the past and I also have many reasons that make me (no offense to any Muslims here) dislike it.

Here are some excerpts from Immanuel Kant's writing on Swedenborg and the fire, along with some other interesting information.

http://www.newtheism.com/papers/W.Woofe ... nities.htm

[Matthew Ellard]

Here are some excerpts from Immanuel Kant's writing on Swedenborg and the fire, along with some other interesting information.

http://www.newtheism.com/papers/W.Woofe ... nities.htm

Well researched!   I didn't think you would find anything.  

I have read through the excerpts.  Obviously Kant was in a bit of a pickle in that he was an honest logical man who could not explain, nor offer explanations for the events.  His later anti-Swedenborg work does not discredit Swedenborg but seems more of Kant generally dismissing paranormal activity in the face of logic..

I don't know if this gives us any more insight in 2010 into what happened more than 200 years ago.  However it is interesting reading how Kant reacted as it was similar to some of the posts here left by skeptics.  

Do you want to keep concentrating on Swedenborg?  

[Bunyip]

If there is no apparent explantion for a thing, I think the most rational explanations are; my own ignorance (the most likely explanation) or 'we don' know yet'

Jumping to the conclusion of say the paranormal or some convoluted conspiracy theory based on the oxymoron 'common sense' is a secular equivalent of ' the god  of the gaps'. (argument from ignorance)

To debunk claims of  the paranormal ,use scientific method: Observation based evidence and repeatability.Unverified written accounts are not reliable as a general  rule. The older they are the less reliable they are likely to be.  Human beings ARE gullible,and DO deceive themselves and others.

It's worth noting that no one has managed to claim one of the various large cash prizes offered for proving psychic abilities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Examples :

Saint Joseph of Cupertino,the levitating saint.

 Saint Joseph of Cupertino (Italian: San Giuseppe da Copertino) (June 17, 1603 – September 18, 1663) was an Italian saint. He was said to have been remarkably unclever, but prone to miraculous levitation and intense ecstatic visions that left him gaping.[1]  In turn, he is recognized as the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, people with a mental handicap, test takers, and weak students. He was canonized in the year 1767.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Copertino


Daniel Dunglas Home a C19th  'psychic' whom eyewitnesses swore they saw levitate, go horizontal, float out of a narrow opening in a window, stand upright outside the window and return.

Daniel Dunglas Home (pronounced 'Hume') (March 20, 1833 – June 21, 1886) was a Scottish Spiritualist, famous as a physical medium with the reported ability to levitate to a variety of heights, speak with the dead, and to produce rapping and knocks in houses at will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dunglas_Home



The Cottingley Fairies: Photos of faires which fooled thousands of people ,including  Arthur Conan Doyle who wrote a book on the events called "The Coming Of The Fairies" (two movies were recently made,2008-09 I think)

 The Cottingley Fairies appear in a series of five photographs taken by Elsie Wright and Frances Griffiths, two young cousins who lived in Cottingley, near Bradford  in England. In 1917, when the first two photographs were taken, Elsie was 16 years old and Frances was 10. The pictures came to the attention of writer Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who used them to illustrate an article on fairies he had been commissioned to write for the Christmas 1920 edition of The Strand Magazine. Conan Doyle, as a Spiritualist, was enthusiastic about the photographs, and interpreted them as clear and visible evidence of psychic phenomena. Public reaction was mixed; some accepted that the images were genuine, but others believed they had been faked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottingley_fairies

Spontaneous  human combustion;

 Spontaneous human combustion (SHC) is a name used to describe alleged cases of the burning  of a living human body without an apparent external source of ignition. While there have been about 200 cited cases[1]  worldwide over a period of around 300 years, most of the alleged cases are characterized by the lack of a thorough investigation, or rely heavily on hearsay and oral testimony. In many of the more recent cases, where photographic evidence is available, it is alleged that there was an external source of heat present (often cigarettes), and nothing occurred "spontaneously."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneou ... combustion

[Zanders]

If there is no apparent explantion for a thing, I think the most rational explanations are; my own ignorance (the most likely explanation) or 'we don' know yet'

Jumping to the conclusion of say the paranormal or some convoluted conspiracy theory based on the oxymoron 'common sense' is a secular equivalent of ' the god  of the gaps'. (argument from ignorance)

To debunk claims of  the paranormal ,use scientific method: Observation based evidence and repeatability.Unverified written accounts are not reliable as a general  rule. The older they are the less reliable they are likely to be.  Human beings ARE gullible,and DO deceive themselves and others.

It's worth noting that no one has managed to claim one of the various large cash prizes offered for proving psychic abilities.

Very good, there really are lots of things that people just don't understand. And it fools even the brightest of people. But I find it harder to fake getting information of a distant event while it was happening. Of course, that could be later additions to the story the more people told it.

[Thylacine]

Of course, that could be later additions to the story the more people told it.

With several billion people living on the planet, millions of unlikely coincidences happen to them each day — most prosaic and of no interest. Interesting stories of peculiar happenings, however, have a way of becoming exaggerated as people repeatedly tell them. I suspect that if you had been there, knew the entire story and were privy to all the facts, the Swedish story (and all or most of the others) wouldn't seem nearly as miraculous or far-fetched.

[Laz]

yep- in short, don't believe everything you hear.

[Zanders]

On a different forum and got many  good responses and explanations as well. For anyone that wants to see some more comments and answers to questions in this thread, check out this link. They bring up some good stuff on the Swedenborg one.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=180282

Also, if anybody else has any other "paranormal" accounts that they find hard to explain, I would like it if you posted them here in this thread.

[jenthehero]

It is a magic trick. There is lots of b.s. in plain sight and anyone with a brain can read the debate and see the conflicts and deceptions.

Hint don't listen to people like Matt or any of the regulars on here, most are deceptive puppets with no debate only trickery and the usual dark games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSpkLk0vYmk

Trick one, fraudulent conveyance of facts
Trick two control the debate (delete or moderate)
Trick three call it conspiracy or crazy.... like there has never been a conspiracy in the life of man.
Ignore
control media....

It is all real and obvious

[Zanders]

It is a magic trick. There is lots of b.s. in plain sight and anyone with a brain can read the debate and see the conflicts and deceptions.

Hint don't listen to people like Matt or any of the regulars on here, most are deceptive puppets with no debate only trickery and the usual dark games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSpkLk0vYmk

Trick one, fraudulent conveyance of facts
Trick two control the debate (delete or moderate)
Trick three call it conspiracy or crazy.... like there has never been a conspiracy in the life of man.
Ignore
control media....

It is all real and obvious

Your post seems a little off subject. The posts made in this thread were directed at the questions I asked, Matthew Ellard and others gave a skeptical analysis and logical explanations for the event in question. Your sudden Alex Jones link seems like spam to me

Also, can anyone give me some other stories or rumors of clairvoyance similar to the Swedenborg fire event? Even if they were to be hoaxes, I want some other events that is similar.

[vanderpoel]

You didn't think of the sudden reappearance of jenthehero as a psychic event?

[A-number]

Also, can anyone give me some other stories or rumors of clairvoyance similar to the Swedenborg fire event? Even if they were to be hoaxes, I want some other events that is similar.

I read off a serious book in my book a story of this guy who was on a boat from somewhere in Australia to somewhere else (I forgot the details), while on his journey, he had this frightening dream of a bloody guy holding a sword at him and just staring at him I think, He had the dream or nightmare I must say 2 or 3 nights in row while on that boat. Next stop, he got off though his trip was supposed to continue on to another port. Once that boat left that port he got off, it has never been heard from again! He was the only survivor of that boat and the commercial ship was big one for that time, which means it had probably a good couple of hundred people at least. If I remember correctly, the story happened in early 1900's but I might be wrong. I don't have enough time to google and find its documentation through news papers and such and I don't have the book anymore. But I will try to search it once I have couple of mns.
I personally have had quite few experiences that prove to me that the paranormal is a part of our lives, each and everyone has access to the weird and unexplained's realm, it's just that some have it activated while others dormant or consciously suppressed.

This said, I do value and sincerely respect anything that Matthew has to say. This post is not to discredit his input in any shape or form.

[Zanders]

Hey A-number, can you please unblock me so I can send you private messages? There was a misunderstanding and the reason you blocked me wasn't actually what I said. I would really like to clear that up.

[A-number]

Hey A-number, can you please unblock me so I can send you private messages? There was a misunderstanding and the reason you blocked me wasn't actually what I said. I would really like to clear that up.

Mary is the Mother of My Lord and that's that brother . It's not negociable   . And just as I already told you via pm, I believe that she, along with Jesus, is Sinless. Somebody else called her what you have before you to me on this forum, that didn't advance their cause. Furthermore. It is against forum rules to open a second account. The one from which you contacted me 2wice after I blocked you? I know. I am "stupid", "dumb", "idiotic" and "all of the other names". But Mary is remaining where she is at on my personal map   . There is nothing to discuss about that. And your belief does not bother me a bit, so be at peace, I just refuse to let it intoxicate my mind. And that is my right.

In regard to the thread, I am going to ck that book on the library and give you more infor about that happening because I personally find it remarkable to say the least.

[Zanders]

Hey A-number, can you please unblock me so I can send you private messages? There was a misunderstanding and the reason you blocked me wasn't actually what I said. I would really like to clear that up.

Mary is the Mother of My Lord and that's that brother . It's not negociable   . And just as I already told you via pm, I believe that she, along with Jesus, is Sinless. Somebody else called her what you have before you to me on this forum, that didn't advance their cause. Furthermore. It is against forum rules to open a second account. The one from which you contacted me 2wice after I blocked you? I know. I am "stupid", "dumb", "idiotic" and "all of the other names". But Mary is remaining where she is at on my personal map   . There is nothing to discuss about that. And your belief does not bother me a bit, so be at peace, I just refuse to let it intoxicate my mind. And that is my right.

In regard to the thread, I am going to ck that book on the library and give you more infor about that happening because I personally find it remarkable to say the least.

Again, you show that you did not read what I said right. I never insulted Mary, go read again and pay closer attention. I never insulted Mary, I insulted Ishtar. I was just talking about the catholic version. What you are doing is rather petty and childish, because I never insulted you or your beliefs, you just ran away because of a misunderstanding. Also, I mainly wanted you to pm some info on that experience you had. Let's drop that subject, because you apparently don't understand what I meant, and just have you send me the info on your experience, because I find it really fascinating. You make the mistake of imputing motives and assuming I don't believe you at all, that is not the case. I hope that you will understand that I didn't say or mean what you thought I did, and try to talk to me one last time. Blocking out any opinion you don't agree with is a very childish thing to do, and won't get anyone anywhere.

[Matthew Ellard]

It is a magic trick. Hint don't listen to people like Matt or any of the regulars on here, most are deceptive puppets with no debate only trickery and the usual dark games.

So "Matt and his fellow skeptic regulars use "magic tricks"?  Isn't that a bit odd for skeptics to use "magic tricks".   ( "Hey Pyrrho..watch me pull a wooist out of my hat!" )   Even better we only use trickery and "dark games".  So I am the leader of the forces of darkness?......fantastic....finally a bit of recognition for my hard work!

[jenthehero]

Ya, I guess Randi the king skeptic also confessed magician is weird. Sorry the truth in your face is so painful.

In case you are not converted I will gladly start a thread and explain the trickery used in a pretend debate on their part... Don't worry you can see if you open your eyes.

The truth will illuminate this hack darkness of the puppet crew. It is easy.

Start a thread, I will show you.

Name calling is usually reserved for the final battle, they will call stacks and stacks of information conspiracy but you will see the conflicts and the deception and know this rotten fruit comes from a bad tree.

What a peach.

[Zanders]

Ya, I guess Randi the king skeptic also confessed magician is weird. Sorry the truth in your face is so painful.

In case you are not converted I will gladly start a thread and explain the trickery used in a pretend debate on their part... Don't worry you can see if you open your eyes.

The truth will illuminate this hack darkness of the puppet crew. It is easy.

Start a thread, I will show you.

Name calling is usually reserved for the final battle, they will call stacks and stacks of information conspiracy but you will see the conflicts and the deception and know this rotten fruit comes from a bad tree.

What a peach.

Feel free to derail my thread with it. You have my attention and curiosity now.

[Blacksamwell]

[...]The truth will illuminate this hack darkness[...]

Okay, I Googled it, but didn't get any meaningful result.

What is "hack darkness"?

Thanks,

[landrew]

Of course, that could be later additions to the story the more people told it.

With several billion people living on the planet, millions of unlikely coincidences happen to them each day — most prosaic and of no interest. Interesting stories of peculiar happenings, however, have a way of becoming exaggerated as people repeatedly tell them. I suspect that if you had been there, knew the entire story and were privy to all the facts, the Swedish story (and all or most of the others) wouldn't seem nearly as miraculous or far-fetched.

I don't believe in anything paranormal, but the vastness of the unexplained is forever being underestimated.  I can't account for all the unexplained things which seem to be ubiquitous in our world, (like some skeptics are wont to do) but I see no reason why all the explanations couldn't lie somewhere within the vastness of that ocean to which we are still ignorant.

[Pyrrho]

"It's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Richard Feynman

[Zanders]

With several billion people living on the planet, millions of unlikely coincidences happen to them each day — most prosaic and of no interest. Interesting stories of peculiar happenings, however, have a way of becoming exaggerated as people repeatedly tell them. I suspect that if you had been there, knew the entire story and were privy to all the facts, the Swedish story (and all or most of the others) wouldn't seem nearly as miraculous or far-fetched.

I don't believe in anything paranormal, but the vastness of the unexplained is forever being underestimated.  I can't account for all the unexplained things which seem to be ubiquitous in our world, (like some skeptics are wont to do) but I see no reason why all the explanations couldn't lie somewhere within the vastness of that ocean to which we are still ignorant.

Some stuff I am finding recently makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't need to get so anxious or uneasy with these things, but I do.

[landrew]

"It's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Richard Feynman

So it wasn't swamp gas after all?

[vanderpoel]

"It's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Richard Feynman

That's why his marriage lasted.

[jenthehero]

It is such a crock. Think about it, if ghosts were real, you could explain it .... it is a shift in the time space, and the spirit can linger in this field energy bla bla bla. Lock ness is a plureduritheron it is stupid.

What has to be changed is to admit when wrong, and obvious deception should be called out. I.E. fluoride in drinking water....Mercury in fillings....

*******Just quoted in Time Magazine:"As much as 90% of physicians' medical knowledge has been found to be substantially or completely wrong. In fact, there is a 1 in 12 chance that a doctor's diagnosis will be so wrong that it causes the patient significant harm."

[A-number]

Again, you show that you did not read what I said right.

You don't seem to be able to read yourself right, so why are you shocked that I "can't"? you shouldn't.

[Zanders]

Again, you show that you did not read what I said right.

You don't seem to be able to read yourself right, so why are you shocked that I "can't"? you shouldn't.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. Nothing I wrote should have been confusing. I even showed it to other people and they understood what I meant. You seem to have comprehension problems, maybe it is due to your judgmental and stubborn attitude. I'm curious, what messages has Jesus been giving to you? because you certainly aren't acting very enlightened. Anyway, this conversation is turning out to be like talking to a brick wall. Sad, I expected better from you.

I would appreciate it if we could just ignore all of this and start from scratch. I just want to talk to you about your experiences, becasue I find them fascinating and have been looking in to a lot of stories like this. I am not an atheist and I don't refuse to except paranormal events. But I bet you don't want to waste any time on me, since you apparently already know everything about me. Isn't there a verse in the Bible that reads" Judge not, lest you be judged"? Thanks a lot. At least I tried to be polite and clear up the misunderstanding without insulting you. This just adds another person to my list of stuck up and rude Christians. Also, the overabundance of smileys really makes you look less credible.

BACK ON TOPIC

I would like to focus on Swedenborg some more now. Please read through the thread I am about to post below, and the wikipedia page I am going to link to.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=180282

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_church

Based on this information, I would like people to point out flaws, or reasons why this is nothing special. I am rather disturbed by this, and would like some good points that expose flaws in him and his theology,

[A-number]

Again, you show that you did not read what I said right.

You don't seem to be able to read yourself right, so why are you shocked that I "can't"? you shouldn't.

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

If you had a better comprehension than the one I have you'd stop harrassing me with long posts I already told you I have no interest in. Now go enroll in some English 101 if you are that ahead !