call for debaters

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JO 753
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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:01 am

Cadmusteeth wrote:JO, your conclusions about how these UFOs could be alien space are purely inductive (based on speculation without further evidence and explanation).


Sumtimez thats the best you get in the real world. The alternativ, dismissing the witnessez az idiots, duznt alwayz work.

You can skip to 00:37 to get the explanation. (I can give more time stamps if anyone wants them)


Hard to do wen the video iznt 37 minits long.

Good example uv explaineration. He duznt solve the mystery, he just goez strate to pure speculation. And offering a rare creature az an alternativ to a UFO & alien without accounting for the fireball iz about az lame az you can get. (I skipped sum chunks, so sorry if he did try to explain the fireball)
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Cadmusteeth » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:07 am

But he did account for the fireball though. :|
It was seen from two other states.
Edit: He starts explaining it at 16:11 and it lasts until 18:30.
Last edited by Cadmusteeth on Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:43 am

OK, watched it.

He duz not account for it. He toks about it and the assumtion that it wuz a meteor. Explaineration.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby xouper » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:53 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:. . . If flying saucers existed, and they existed in the numbers that the nut cases claim, then their existence would have been proved long ago.


Maybe so, maybe not.

How do you intend to prove your assertion that "their existence would have been proved long ago"?

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Re: call for debaters

Postby Cadmusteeth » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:15 pm

JO 753 wrote:OK, watched it.

He duz not account for it. He toks about it and the assumtion that it wuz a meteor. Explaineration.

I think you and I saw two different things.
How exactly did you expect him to account for it given the lack of evidence? (Other than eyewitness accounts in poor conditions.)

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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:14 pm

Find the meteorite!
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:27 pm

TEnginist wrote:A helicopter can stop quickly without violating the laws of physics and without destroying itself

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:[A helicopter] has to be within ground effect to "hover" or stop quickly (sic) without losing altitude.

TEnginist wrote:So, then, a helicopter can hover and stop quickly.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Note the "(sic)". That was a reference to Einsteinian Relativity. Quickly compared to earth known technology..... not quick compared to observed UFO phenomenon. Looks like you will grab and promote anything at all.

Poor form.
Er...I didn't write any of that. So...FIFY. :mrgreen:
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:42 pm

JO 753 wrote:Racoon lojik continuez.
It's not "raccoon logic" to expect the claimant to prove his claim with scientific evidence.

JO 753 wrote:You cant claim sumthing iz impossibl by the lawz uv fiziks kuz you dont know them all and sum uv the wunz you think you no are rong.
Prove it.

JO 753 wrote:And sins I hav dispelled the root uv all sientific objectionz to alien vizitorz, the burden uv proof iz yourz.
You most certainly have not dispelled even a single scientific objections. You have taken anecdotal narratives and jumped to the conclusion "alien visitors," a viewpoint that is neither scientific nor skeptical. You might as well have jumped to the conclusion "god." Or "faeries."

JO 753 wrote:You need to proov that the witnessez were mistaken. Incredulity iz extreeeemly weeeek evidens.
Nope. You know full well that anecdotal narratives are NOT scientific evidence. And if YOU are relying on them, then YOU need to have evidence to support them. I am not claiming that incredulity is evidence; I am stating that a skeptic's ground state, in the absence of evidence, should be incredulity, NEVER blind faith.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:23 am

Cadmusteeth wrote:JO, your conclusions about how these UFOs could be alien space are purely inductive (based on speculation without further evidence and explanation).

I'm going to go off on a slight tangent to present a video that shows in part how perceptions can be fooled:
(There's mention of a UFO in the video but it's brief)
https://youtu.be/QE9pEBEZk4Q
I watched the whole thing. He did a fantastic job of analyzing the case, I thought. Fairly close to the beginning, the original witness' drawings made me think both "meteor" and "barn owl sitting on a tree stump with branches." After the description of "hissing" and "gliding," I was nearly positive that's what it was.

Of course, my confirmation bias is that I'll see wildlife in the woods. Funny, I always do. :mrgreen:
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: call for debaters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:26 am

JO 753 wrote:OK, watched it.

He duz not account for it. He toks about it and the assumtion that it wuz a meteor. Explaineration.

He absolutely does account for it six ways from Sunday. Astronomers had been tracking the damn thing, and it was seen from three different states: WVA, PA, and MD.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: call for debaters

Postby Cadmusteeth » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:37 am

JO 753 wrote:Find the meteorite!

I poked around and it's most likely that it burnt up in earths atmosphere. But Dude, the fact it was reported as a fireball hints that it was a meteorite cause, they burn entering our atmosphere do to friction. They have to be pretty big to survive landing at all. (if they haven't broken apart on impact that is.)

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Re: call for debaters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:41 am

There are well over 7 billion people on planet Earth. If only one person in a million has a rush of blood to the head each year and identifies an inoccuous mundane light in the sky as an alien space ship, that is more than 7,000 alien spaceships reported each year. How many people think that fewer than one in a million people are deluded ?

And yet Jo thinks that a few hundred "sightings " over many decades represents proof.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:46 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:It's not "raccoon logic" to expect the claimant to prove his claim with scientific evidence.


'If I cant understand it, it duznt exist' iz racoon lojik. But not all racoonz, just the wunz mashed up on the road.

Prove it.

Incomplete and contradictory, therefor you dont get to say 'impossible'.

You most certainly have not dispelled even a single scientific objections.


I most sertainly hav.

The entire objection iz based on the claim that lite speed can not be exeeded or even reached thus the vast distansez between starz iz an impassable barrier. Turnz out that LS iz a matter uv perpsectiv and the basic assumtion that the vizitorz had to start frum sum distant solar system with the intention to arrive here iz groundless.

Nope.


Yep.

The reports uv reliable witnessez iz all we shoud expect to ever get considering the likelyhood that the alien tek iz never going to be handed over to us intentionally or aksidentally. (yet maybe sum haz been) Nothing to take into a lab. So on either side uv the balans we hav astounded military pilots & other reliable witnessez vs Mr. Armchair Sientist Skeptic who wuznt there. That = eyewitness accounts vs jak skwot.

Then therez the little matter uv the massiv decadez long cover-up program. Wut evidens haz been hidden from us?
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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:52 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:He absolutely does account for it six ways from Sunday. Astronomers had been tracking the damn thing, and it was seen from three different states: WVA, PA, and MD...


'...and a spase ship coud not possibly......'

See your problem yet?
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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:04 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:There are well over 7 billion people on planet Earth. If only one person in a million has a rush of blood to the head each year and identifies an inoccuous mundane light in the sky as an alien space ship, that is more than 7,000 alien spaceships reported each year. How many people think that fewer than one in a million people are deluded ?

And yet Jo thinks that a few hundred "sightings " over many decades represents proof.


I never sed 'proof'.

There are obvious misreprezentationz in your argument.

We arent tokking about the entire population uv barely more than monkeyz.

We arent tokking about only lites in the nite sky.

I hav never denied that there are nuts, con men, bleevrz, wooists, drug addicts and plain honest mistakes by ordinary peepl.

You are making the bold claim that all UFO reports can be explained by ordinary objects and events. 100%!
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:26 am

Jo

I certainly am. There is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. As I told you, my required standard of evidence is a scientific paper published in a reputable and peer reviewed journal. None exist. Yet there are scientists by the hundreds of thousands who would give their right arm to be the author of such a paper.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:49 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:There is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.


Incorrect. I can name 3 rite now:

1. Reliable witnessez hav reported seeing objects that were neither natural nor made by us. Many reports involv multiple witnessez and sum hav radar verification.

2. There iz undeniabl proof that the goverment haz conducted a cover up. Proof that there iz sumthing to cover up.

3. A. There are trillionz & trillionz uv starz, many or most with planets, that hav existed for billionz uv yirz, so the oddz that we are the only tek produsing beingz to ever arize iz virtually zero. Oddz are that we hav been preseeded by countless otherz by countless millenia. B. Oddz are we are relatively dimwitted and most uv theze otherz achieved spase travel much sooner in their history than we did and didnt stop developing their tek wuns they reached spase.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:10 am

Jo

On your three reasons.

1. Research has shown just how easily eye witnesses are led astray.
2. Conspiracy theories do not cut it. Almost every one is total bull-shit. Secrets on that scale are never kept. We know that a secret shared by two may be betrayed. The more people who share a secret the higher the probability of betrayal. If the number exceeds 10, the probability of betrayal approaches 100%.
3. Ever heard of the rare earth hypothesis? Look it up on Wiki. It makes more sense than your idea.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:53 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
1. Research has shown just how easily eye witnesses are led astray.


By your own admission, tending to normalize thingz.

2. Conspiracy theories do not cut it. Almost every one is total bull-shit. Secrets on that scale are never kept.


BIG secret: Relijion iz a crock! Yet how many are there and how many peepl are in on them? Wen conspirasyz are big enuf, they bekum immune to facts & lojik. Look at global warming denial. How many peepl are in on that? Want sumthing smaller that still lasted for decadez? GM Led Conspirasy or how about GM'z streetcar conspirasy. Way more than 10 peepl involved in all uv theze.

3. Ever heard of the rare earth hypothesis? Look it up on Wiki. It makes more sense than your idea.


And its your fave speculation bekuz its wut you want to beleev.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:13 pm

Alien visitors is not probable because the entities from such societies would be insulted to have their tax dollars spent in such a low return venture.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:03 pm

Jo

When conspiracies become big enough, they do not become immune to facts and logic. But the reality is that when irrational belief in conspiracies becomes big enough, that belief becomes immune to facts and logic.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:17 pm

JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:It's not "raccoon logic" to expect the claimant to prove his claim with scientific evidence.
'If I cant understand it, it duznt exist' iz racoon lojik. But not all racoonz, just the wunz mashed up on the road.
Except that's not what's happening here. Several of us have asked for evidence; none has been provided except anecdotal narrative unsupported by facts. So your viewpoint—"I have no evidence except a series of widely disparate witness statements and a will to believe."—isn't logic at all.

JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:You most certainly have not dispelled even a single scientific objections.
I most sertainly hav.

The entire objection iz based on the claim that lite speed can not be exeeded or even reached thus the vast distansez between starz iz an impassable barrier. Turnz out that LS iz a matter uv perpsectiv and the basic assumtion that the vizitorz had to start frum sum distant solar system with the intention to arrive here iz groundless.
First, that's not the principle on which my objection is based. Second, that's only ONE scientific objection; it's not remotely ALL of them.

JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Nope.
Yep.
Nope. (No idea what this is from, since you failed to quote the relevant part of the discussion.)

JO 753 wrote:The reports uv reliable witnessez iz all we shoud expect to ever get considering the likelyhood that the alien tek iz never going to be handed over to us intentionally or aksidentally.
Your assumption has no basis in fact or logic. And I object to the adjective "reliable."

JO 753 wrote:So on either side uv the balans we hav astounded military pilots & other reliable witnessez vs Mr. Armchair Sientist Skeptic who wuznt there. That = eyewitness accounts vs jak skwot.
Not true. We have also millions of people with 8- and 12-megapixel cameras capable of video who habitually upload fantastically clear evidence of eclipses, meteor showers, tornados, hurricanes, lightning strikes, and tons of other phenomena that occur in the atmosphere...but all such "evidence" of "UFOs" is blurry, grainy, and shakier than Cloverfield. It's interesting that this same technology failure occurs with "evidence" of Bigfoot, Nessie, and various other cryptids, as well as ghosts, spirits, demons, and various other supernatural apparitions. Quite interesting.

Various dashcam footage of the Chelyabinsk meteor of 15 February 2013...all crisp, clear, and steady as a rock. All clearly a meteor. (No, I don't know why lots of Russians seem to have dashcams. Maybe we should too.)
https://youtu.be/dpmXyJrs7iU

Also, I have another question to ask you and other "believers." People have taken photos of what they claim to be alien craft, and the objects vary wildly in shape, size, movement, and detail. Examples:
Ok, I could keep going here with spheres, ovoids, pyramids, Romulan Birds of Prey, etc. But I do have a point: Do you really believe that uncounted races of extraterrestrial species are observing, visiting, and/or interfering with Earth? Based on the plethora of widely disparate "UFO" designs, if these were real alien craft, then it certainly doesn't seem to be merely one alien race. Given the likelihood that life requires certain elements to develop, evolutionarily-speaking, what are the odds that a dozen or more alien species chanced to discover Earth and all decided to come pay us a visit?

JO 753 wrote:Then therez the little matter uv the massiv decadez long cover-up program. Wut evidens haz been hidden from us?
:roll: "Three can keep a secret if two are dead." You already know the illogic involved in a "massive, decades-long, cover-up program." Tens of thousands of people can't keep their mouths shuts for decades. Also, here's a great touchstone for conspiracy theories: Do wealthy people benefit from it? If not, then it's probably BS.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:18 pm

JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:He absolutely does account for it six ways from Sunday. Astronomers had been tracking the damn thing, and it was seen from three different states: WVA, PA, and MD...


'...and a spase ship coud not possibly......'

See your problem yet?

No, because you insist on not bothering to quote the relevant parts of the conversation. I'm not scrolling back to reread the entire thread in order to respond to you. Help a sista out, brutha.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:45 pm

We'v been arguing the UFO thing here from the beginning and I dont no how many timez I'v repeated the same stuff, so it haz gotten old for me. There are the unmovable True SkepticsTM who wont buj a mm no matter wut facts & lojik you throw at them and then there a few who can reconsider their own beleefs.

Wich type woud you rather be?
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Re: call for debaters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:50 pm

Are you willing to budge Jo?

be specific.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:05 pm

Sure. Read sum uv the many other UFO thredz. There were a few storyz that I admitted were not alien vehiclez after seeing the evidens.

I'm even on the fens now about the Foenix Lites case.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:08 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:He absolutely does account for it six ways from Sunday. Astronomers had been tracking the damn thing, and it was seen from three different states: WVA, PA, and MD...


'...and a spase ship coud not possibly......'

See your problem yet?

No, because you insist on not bothering to quote the relevant parts of the conversation. I'm not scrolling back to reread the entire thread in order to respond to you. Help a sista out, brutha.


The problem iz that a vehicle coud also appear az a fireball streaking across 3 states.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:10 pm

Jo

My position is clear cut.
My standard of evidence I consider acceptable is a scientific study of material evidence, published in a peer reviewed and reputable journal such as 'Science ' or 'Nature ' . I do not consider anything that probably comes from delusions, errors, or hoaxes as acceptable evidence. Nor anything that relates to bull-shit conspiracy theories.

Where are those scientific papers ?

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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:29 pm

How many timez hav you repeated that? You hav yet to address the objectionz to it.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:41 am

There is no valid objection.
If you, or anyone else, insists on superstition being true, you need to provide good evidence. Or as Sagan said :"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. " i have merely stated what kind of evidence is acceptable.

Again, delusions, hoaxes, and errors of perception are not acceptable.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:51 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:There is no valid objection.


Youv lost the debate wen thats the best you can do. :)
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Re: call for debaters

Postby Cadmusteeth » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:36 pm

This isn't a debate, this is a discussion. If the goal is finding the truth then anecdotal evidence and imagining possibilities are not enough on their own. No matter how sincere or smart the people who are advocating the concept. They can be mistaken just as much as anyone else. And to absolve them of any negative criticism undermines discussion of the topic.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:49 pm

If the Aliens do not want to be generally "known"............. shouldn't we respect their wishes????

.............I mean, I don't want our first encounters to be speciest!!!
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Re: call for debaters

Postby JO 753 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:59 pm

They can sue me!
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Re: call for debaters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:29 pm

JO 753 wrote:They can sue me!

THATS probably the reason they don't want to be generally known. It might establish jurisdiction.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby gorgeous » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:59 pm

9 Huge Government Conspiracies That Actually ... - Business Insider



www.businessinsider.com/true-government ... es-2013-12
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:10 pm

Not that huge. Just profit for the involved for-profit industries. Business as usual.
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Re: call for debaters

Postby TEnginist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:31 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:...as Sagan said :"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. " i have merely stated what kind of evidence is acceptable.

It seems clear that “extraordinary” in “extraordinary evidence” can only mean “unusually strong,” but what does the “extraordinary” in “extraordinary claims” mean?

The “extraordinary” in “extraordinary claims” cannot mean simply “out of the ordinary,” since many such claims don’t require unusually strong evidence; for instance:

Your trusted friend tells you, “We had an extraordinary year. Our company’s sales grew by over 500% in 2016.” Or, “It was bazaar; if we took longer than five minutes in the bathroom, we had to give our manager an explanation.”

And, “extraordinary” in “extraordinary claims” cannot mean “out of the ordinary in my experience,” (or “shocking,” etc.) since many such claims don’t require unusually strong evidence; for instance:

Your trusted friend calls you and says, “Mom passed away last night.” You don’t need to be see a scientific paper in order to believe the claim.

But “extraordinary” in “extraordinary claims” might mean “improbable.” In fact, this seems to be the only meaning that makes sense in this context. So “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” can only mean:

“Improbable claims require unusually strong evidence.”

I agree with the disambiguated aphorism. So I see the issue as resolving to these questions:

(1) Is the claim that some UFOs are manifestations of otherworldly visitors improbable? (2) Can eyewitness testimony (for instance, reports from multiple respectable witnesses) ever constitute unusually strong evidence?

Lance, do you agree that these two questions constitute the crux of the argument?

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Re: call for debaters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:50 am

Answers, yes and no.

Yes to the first. No indications of aliens ever existed before the 20th century, and the first such claims followed upon the development of a large body of fiction about aliens. Emphasize the word fiction.

No to the second because it is really, really easy to fool eye witnesses. Just think of the crop circle fiasco in Britain where a few students with boards and rope created patterns as a hoax, which had even the BBC fooled.

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Re: call for debaters

Postby TEnginist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:58 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Answers, yes and no.

I am interested to hear your answers to the two questions, but my question was, Do you agree that these two questions constitute the crux of the argument?


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