Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

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Shen1986
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Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby Shen1986 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:49 am

Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

I decided to make a skeptical look on this NDE because it contains a OBE:

On June 21, 1973, at the age of 19, Pastorelli had a near-fatal car accident which led to a near-death experience that literally changed how he was living, in a very dramatic way. He describes it as follows: "Late in the afternoon I was goin' about 90 mph. It smashed right into the driver's door. It hit me so hard it actually knocked the shoes off my feet. My car rolled over about four times on this big highway and the next thing I knew I was in intensive care with a collapsed lung. Every one of my ribs was shattered. I had lacerations to my head and face, and my kidneys, spleen and gall bladder were all ruptured. I was a mess. I was in excruciating pain. Then, in the next second, there was no pain. Suddenly I realized I was out of my body. I was floating above myself, looking down at my unconscious body lying in the hospital emergency room with my eyes closed. I could see tubes down my nose and throat. I knew I was dying and I thought, 'Well, this must be death.' I even saw a priest giving me the last rites. But it was the most peaceful feeling in the world. Then I saw my father starting to faint out of grief. Two nurses grabbed him and sat him down in a chair across the room. When I looked down and saw my father's pain it had an effect on me. I firmly believe that at that moment I made a decision to live, not die. The next thing I knew I was waking up back in my body. Later, in the recovery room, when I was fully conscious, I told my father what had happened, his fainting and all. He was astounded."

By August that year, everything had changed for Pastorelli. "After almost dying, things like a secure job and pension suddenly became meaningless ... A goal like acting -- which I thought was unattainable -- became the only thing I focused on. If I hadn't had the accident, I'd probably be dead or just sleepwalking through life ... It was my destiny to have that accident." he says. "I felt such freedom. I realized there's a soiul and eternal life, that part of you can't die, that the soul keeps recycling until we reach a point of bliss. I sound like Gandhi -- I mean, Gandherelli, don't I?"


Source: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/r ... s.html#a05

The problems of this NDE are these:

1. Problem: This is a lie according to wikipedia because he did not change:

On June 21, 1973, at the age of 19, Pastorelli had a near-fatal car accident which led to a near-death experience that literally changed how he was living, in a very dramatic way.


Source: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/r ... s.html#a05

He did not change on the contrary he started to take drugs AFTER the NDE:

Pastorelli acquired a narcotic habit in his early twenties prior to his acting career, which he overcame, but which he would relapse into throughout his later life.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pastorelli

2. Problem: Before he had a NDE he was boxing it could have a effect on his NDE:

He initially intended a career as a professional boxer, but had to abandon the sport due to injuries sustained in a near-fatal high-speed car crash at the age of 19 (he later claimed that he had a "near death" experience at this time, and that he had experienced himself looking down from above upon his body in a hospital bed with his father at the bedside overcome with grief).


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pastorelli

3. Problem: The whole NDE sounds like it was taken from a movie which is normal because it comes from a actor:

Robert Joseph Pastorelli (June 21, 1954 – March 8, 2004) was an American actor.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pastorelli

Robert PastorelliThe late Robert Pastorelli (1954--2004) acquired a reputation as a skilled character actor in the 1980s and 1990s in films such as Outrageous Fortune (1987), Beverly Hills Cop II (1987), Dances with Wolves (1990), Eraser (1996), and Michael (1996). His big break in television came in the role of the gruff but lovable house painter "Eldin Bernecky" on the series Murphy Brown, and he stayed with the show for seven seasons from 1988 to 1994.


Source: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/r ... s.html#a05

4. Problem: The OBE does not sound very convincing as a actor or a person who lived during the era of a TV he knows how a emergency looks like. The only thing that is worth mentioning to debunk is that his father was fainting when this happened but that is nothing special actually. His father loved him deeply according to this and every parent would faint when when his loved child was in danger of life. Also he could have overheard it, they were in the same room. The nurses were calming his father down and they were talking to his father and he could have overheard this and his brain created a scenario from this:

Then, in the next second, there was no pain. Suddenly I realized I was out of my body. I was floating above myself, looking down at my unconscious body lying in the hospital emergency room with my eyes closed. I could see tubes down my nose and throat. I knew I was dying and I thought, 'Well, this must be death.' I even saw a priest giving me the last rites. But it was the most peaceful feeling in the world. Then I saw my father starting to faint out of grief. Two nurses grabbed him and sat him down in a chair across the room. When I looked down and saw my father's pain it had an effect on me. I firmly believe that at that moment I made a decision to live, not die. The next thing I knew I was waking up back in my body. Later, in the recovery room, when I was fully conscious, I told my father what had happened, his fainting and all. He was astounded."


Source: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/r ... s.html#a05

5. Problem: Pastorelli during his NDE was called a priest that gave him his last rites that means he was a Christian but after his NDE he claims that there is reincarnation:

By August that year, everything had changed for Pastorelli. "After almost dying, things like a secure job and pension suddenly became meaningless ... A goal like acting -- which I thought was unattainable -- became the only thing I focused on. If I hadn't had the accident, I'd probably be dead or just sleepwalking through life ... It was my destiny to have that accident." he says. "I felt such freedom. I realized there's a soiul and eternal life, that part of you can't die, that the soul keeps recycling until we reach a point of bliss. I sound like Gandhi -- I mean, Gandherelli, don't I?"


Source: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/r ... s.html#a05

6. Problem: The biggest problem is that after his NDE Pastorelli did not change at all like he claimed. A person who was in heaven and knows there is life after death does not behave this way. I believe this person would be a change person and that completely. It seems that the argument between him and his girlfriend caused her death:

In the evening of March 15, 1999, during an incident at his Hollywood home, Pastorelli's 25-year-old girlfriend, Charemon Jonovich, was killed by a gunshot to the head. During the authorities' investigation that followed, Pastorelli testified that in the midst of an argument between the two of them, she suddenly produced a handgun and killed herself. The incident was investigated as an accident or suicide, and the Los Angeles Coroner's Office declared the cause of death undetermined.[6]


Second he returned to drugs and was on drugs after his NDE:

Pastorelli was found by his assistant at his home in Hollywood, CA on March 8, 2004. His assistant dialed 911. First Responders attempted to revive Pastorelli. Investigators found evidence of an overdose at the scene.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pastorelli

Pastorelli acquired a narcotic habit in his early twenties prior to his acting career, which he overcame, but which he would relapse into throughout his later life.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pastorelli

7. Problem: How a person who was in heaven and claims eternal life can suffer from depression that his girlfriend died? It gives no sense at all because he would meet her in the next life no?:

He died of an accidental heroin overdose in 2004. Sources say Pastorelli, 49, previously battled heroin addiction and had been depressed since the suicide of his girlfriend, Charemon Jonovich.


Source: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/r ... s.html#a05

Conclusion: This NDE is nothing special at all. The OBE is easily explained. The only thing which is very interesting is what I claimed long before that NDEs do not change you. You do not become more spiritual like the NDE crowd is claiming in their books. Here is a prime example that it does no happen.
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:53 pm

he did change his career choice, he had a bigger perspective....addiction is a lifelong struggle, not easily controlled.....he seemed to be a Christian but saw a bigger picture of reincarnation...common in obe's and nde's....it used to be taught in Christianity.....after nde's depression is common....glorious life there, stuggles still here....they prefer to be there again...Jung was depressed after his nde...people who have amazing encounters with the Virgin Mary miss the glory of that experience and some become depressed...she told some she would help them with that.....many actors have nde's like everyone else.....who are you to say it was nothing special at all???????,,,,,,,,to him it was very special and real....you will learn...how easily can you explain your existence???.....because you don't believe it doesn't mean a thing....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:06 pm

As always, Shen, your research and logical reasoning are spot on.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:15 pm

gorgeous wrote:he did change his career choice, he had a bigger perspective....addiction is a lifelong struggle, not easily controlled.....he seemed to be a Christian but saw a bigger picture of reincarnation...common in obe's and nde's....it used to be taught in Christianity.....after nde's depression is common....glorious life there, stuggles still here....they prefer to be there again...Jung was depressed after his nde...people who have amazing encounters with the Virgin Mary miss the glory of that experience and some become depressed...she told some she would help them with that.....many actors have nde's like everyone else.....who are you to say it was nothing special at all???????,,,,,,,,to him it was very special and real....you will learn...how easily can you explain your existence???.....because you don't believe it doesn't mean a thing....

Sweetie, one of the reasons no one bothers to read your posts is that you refuse to write in standard English. Your wall of text, quoted above, is hard on the eyes. Your sentences are not capitalized and do not end with full stops. You don't use paragraphs at natural breaks. And you don't provide links to evidence when you should. Now, look at my rewrite of your post, below, and notice how much easier it is to read.
He did change his career choice; he had a bigger perspective. Also, addiction is a lifelong struggle, and not easily controlled. (LINK to medical study on addiction)

He seemed to be a Christian, but saw the bigger picture of reincarnation, which is common in OBEs and NDEs. It used to be taught in Christianity. (LINK to Christianity teaching reincarnation)

After NDEs, depression is common: glorious life there...struggles here. They prefer to be there again. Jung was depressed after his NDE. (LINK to Jung's NDE and depression) People who have amazing encounters with the Virgin Mary miss the glory of that experience, and some become depressed. She told some she would help them with that.

Many actors have NDEs...just like everyone else. Who are you to say it was nothing special? To him, it was very special...and real. You will learn. How easily can you explain your existence? Because you don't believe, it doesn't mean a thing.

See?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:42 pm

they read it...and they know it's right...they can't dispute it...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:22 pm

Nope. I only read it to rewrite it.

I took RC catechism all the way through confirmation. Reincarnation was NOT taught.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:05 pm

references to reincarnation were removed from the bible
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:28 pm

gorgeous wrote:references to reincarnation were removed from the bible


Great! Now if they would just remove references to Christinsanity...

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:00 pm

gorgeous wrote:references to reincarnation were removed from the bible

The burden of proof is on you, dear. Link, please (and not another dead one).
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby gorgeous » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:22 pm

Emperor responsible for ban on rebirth doctrine - Share International



www.share-international.org/archives/ag ... annned.htm



------------------------In the year 553, quite independently of the Pope, Justinius had the teachings of the church father Origen (185-253) banned by a synod. Origen had spoken out in unmistakable terms on the question of the repeated incarnations of the soul:


"Each soul enters the world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defects of its past lives. Its place in this world is determined by past virtues and shortcomings." De Principalis.

"Is it not more in accordance with common sense that every soul for reasons unknown — I speak in accordance with the opinions of Pythagoras, Plato and Empedokles — enters the body influenced by its past deeds? The soul has a body at its disposal for a certain period of time which, due to its changeable condition, eventually is no longer suitable for the soul, whereupon it changes that body for another." Contra Celsum."
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:06 pm

gorgeous wrote:references to reincarnation were removed from the bible
The old testament is from 200BC. The "Q" document which forms the New Testament Gospels is from 80-120AD. The oldest complete bible (which still exists) is from 330AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

gorgeous wrote: In the year 553, quite independently of the Pope, Justinius had the teachings of the church father Origen........
That can't be right can it Gorgeous. The Bible is 200 years older than this.

You really can't do basic mathematics can you?
:lol:

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Re: Robert Pastorelli NDE a skeptical look

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:30 pm

gorgeous wrote:Emperor responsible for ban on rebirth doctrine - Share International
http://www.share-international.org/arch ... annned.htm

------------------------In the year 553, quite independently of the Pope, Justinius had the teachings of the church father Origen (185-253) banned by a synod. Origen had spoken out in unmistakable terms on the question of the repeated incarnations of the soul:

"Each soul enters the world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defects of its past lives. Its place in this world is determined by past virtues and shortcomings." De Principalis.

"Is it not more in accordance with common sense that every soul for reasons unknown — I speak in accordance with the opinions of Pythagoras, Plato and Empedokles — enters the body influenced by its past deeds? The soul has a body at its disposal for a certain period of time which, due to its changeable condition, eventually is no longer suitable for the soul, whereupon it changes that body for another." Contra Celsum."

Er...no. You're confusing the Eastern concept of reincarnation with Origen's concept of Apokatastasis, which is not the same thing at all.
His position on the literal resurrection of physical bodies is difficult, but in both the Contra Celsum and On First Principles, Origen affirms some form of bodily resurrection, but eschews the notion that earthly bodies will be raised, on account of their gross materiality. Origen believes that all spirits will be finally rescued and glorified, each in the form of its individual life, in order to serve a new epoch of the world when sensuous matter disappears of itself. Yet he constrained himself from breaking entirely with the distinct celestial hopes and representations of Paradise prevalent in the Church. He represents a progressive purification of souls, until, cleansed of all clouds of evil, they should know the truth and God as the Son knew him, see God face to face, and attain a full possession of the Holy Spirit and union with God. The means of attainment of this end were described by Origen in different ways, the most important of which was his concept of a purifying fire which should cleanse the world of evil and thus lead to cosmic renovation. By a further spiritualisation, Origen could call God himself this consuming fire. In proportion as the souls were freed from sin and ignorance, the material world was to pass away, until, after endless eons, at the final end, God should be all in all, and the worlds and spirits should return to a knowledge of God; in Greek this is called Apokatastasis.


Next, it isn't even certain that the condemnation of Origen was even ratified.
While Patriarch Mennas of Constantinople condemned Origen and a form of apocatastasis at the Synod of Constantinople (543), experts are divided whether the Second Council of Constantinople (the Fifth Ecumenical Council) in 553 ratified the condemnation authentically as "It is [only] certain that the council opened on 5 May, 553, in spite of the protestations of Pope Vigilius, who though at Constantinople refused to attend it, and that in the eight conciliary sessions (from 5 May to 2 June), the Acts of which we possess, only the question of the Three Chapters is treated."


Moving on, while Justinian was orthodox (Nicaean) and believed the empire could not be truly united unless it was united in faith, he also recognized the reality of his political situation: that his task was to reconquer the western half of the Holy Roman Empire. Thus, it also behooved him to be a good politician...and he frequently issued doctrinal compromises.

Lastly, the Fifth Ecumenical Council had to do with a rift between those who believed Jesus Christ was fully divine, and those who believed he was separately both divine and human. The Council condemned the above mentioned Three Chapters, which professed the latter belief. Origen was barely a footnote.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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