Lakeland - people raised from dead

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clivedurdle
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Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Tue May 20, 2008 9:17 pm

No one interested in people being raised from the dead?

One case I think - this is fourth hand - involves a child who died but was kept on heart lung until they operated to remove organs who then woke up.

I saw last night on God TV praying for a woman with polio and nothing happening!

http://www.revivallakeland.org/

THREE MORE RAISED FROM THE DEAD THIS WEEK!!!
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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by surrounded » Tue May 20, 2008 10:50 pm

O.M.G :lol:

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Wed May 21, 2008 9:44 pm

Come on everyone, I am a long time iidber and I came here because I could not understand why this is not getting torn to shreds!

Has no one tracked down these people claiming they have been raised from the dead and interviewed them?

This is serious! We might have to accept jeebus into our hearts (OK, I was a pentecostal xian once so I probably won't be let back in!)

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Wed May 21, 2008 9:52 pm

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243375

Suddenly, out of no where three osprey’s (they look just like small eagles) fly over the infield carrying fish in their mouths! The crowd screams!!! The crowd begins to chant – JESUS, JESUS, JESUS! we couldn’t control them! (Osprey, common name applied to a cosmopolitan hawk. The bird, which is about 60 cm (about 24 in) long, is dark brown above and white, variably streaked with brown, below; its head is white with a dark brown masklike cheek patch. The osprey feeds only on fish, and is often called fish hawk.)
OMG, I am converting right now. How else but by God's power would three, not one, not two, but three birds that eat FISH be seen anywhere on Earth?

The wing span is 24 inches, and there are 24 elders around the throne of God in heaven, repent you vile sinners!!


In the early days of the Toronto Blessing (http://www.christianweek.org/stories...o24/story2.htm)
people's fillings were being turned into gold.
Apparently...

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Chachacha » Wed May 21, 2008 10:13 pm

Sorry, clivedurval, I'm not a mythbuster nor a 'we have to save these people from themselverser'. If people are foolish enough to believe that someone is in Lakeland, Florida raising the dead, let them dig up all their dead loved ones and bring them to Lakeland.

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Wed May 21, 2008 11:06 pm

Chachacha wrote:Sorry, clivedurval, I'm not a mythbuster nor a 'we have to save these people from themselverser'. If people are foolish enough to believe that someone is in Lakeland, Florida raising the dead, let them dig up all their dead loved ones and bring them to Lakeland.


But surely skepticism (scepticism?) cannot be neutral - by being sceptical you automatically mythbust.

And by discussing these matters we do save people from themselves.

It sounds like you are working on an assumption that asking a question is not like throwing a pebble in a pond - there are always ripples with whatever we do.

And yes I do think the whole point of asking questions is to get others to ask questions themselves. It is very dangerous for all our health to allow people to fester and spread stuff like this. we have a public health duty here to be sure the sewers are working properly!

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Chachacha » Thu May 22, 2008 12:22 am

clivedurdle wrote:
Chachacha wrote:Sorry, clivedurval, I'm not a mythbuster nor a 'we have to save these people from themselverser'. If people are foolish enough to believe that someone is in Lakeland, Florida raising the dead, let them dig up all their dead loved ones and bring them to Lakeland.


But surely skepticism (scepticism?) cannot be neutral - by being sceptical you automatically mythbust.

And by discussing these matters we do save people from themselves.

It sounds like you are working on an assumption that asking a question is not like throwing a pebble in a pond - there are always ripples with whatever we do.

And yes I do think the whole point of asking questions is to get others to ask questions themselves. It is very dangerous for all our health to allow people to fester and spread stuff like this. we have a public health duty here to be sure the sewers are working properly!



Ask away, Dude! I will just have to live with the ripple effect of my non-effort to save people from themselves. If I lived near Lakeland, I'd be concerned about people bringing the festering, dead bodies of their loved ones to town, but other than that, nope, don't care. You will find plenty of skeptics who are bound and determine to beat religious beliefs out of people. I'm not one of them.

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Thu May 22, 2008 8:26 am

OK, but what about an anthropological interest in these fascinating critters?

These be strange beasties here, equally fascinating as nessie and big foot, but this time real!

:)

(and observable every night on the godchannel!)

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Thu May 22, 2008 8:30 am

Now there are possibilities here - revival meetings in a graveyard?

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by landrew » Thu May 22, 2008 9:52 am

It's been a fearful notion for centuries; waking from the dead after being buried. Some people even specified in their wills to be buried with a bell at the grave site with a rope going down into the coffin. This was to allow the potentially awakened former corpse to pull the rope and ring the bell so that he could be dug up again.

I suppose all this skepticism about being dead or not had it's origins from stories about people who mysteriously came alive after being declared dead. I think the embalming profession has found many ways to eliminate this fear, such as removing the organs before burial to make sure the person is quite dead and "stays buried."
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Thu May 22, 2008 9:51 pm

In some ways belief in resurrection is a result of their belief systems.

These are pentecostals - I am ex - who believe strongly it is the Holy Spirit doing these things. Genesis talks of Adam being made of clay and receiving the breath of God.

Breath and spirit seem to be interchangeable - last breath, spirit leaving him.

So, are we witnessing logic based on false premises? The Holy Spirit or breath of God is moving around, some of it getting into dead bodies is to be expected, therefore revival will have people raised from the dead.

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Chachacha » Thu May 22, 2008 11:32 pm

clivedurdle wrote:Now there are possibilities here - revival meetings in a graveyard?


Well, Rev. Hagee's preaching about the bones in the graveyard standing up and then .... something about Hitler. He lost me there.

Well, that's not really true, he never had me! :lol:

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Pyrrho » Fri May 23, 2008 12:48 am

Here's the story of a woman who allegedly had even developed rigor mortis and had flatlined, yet woke up after they removed the tubes, etc. and the family was saying their goodbyes.

http://www.newsnet5.com/health/16363548/detail.html
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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by jcity » Fri May 23, 2008 2:00 am

clivedurdle wrote:OK, but what about an anthropological interest in these fascinating critters?

These be strange beasties here, equally fascinating as nessie and big foot, but this time real!

These are very pathetic creatures but I'm laughing anyway.
"When someone says 'there ought to be a law...', there probably oughtn't." Penn Jillette

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Major Malfunction » Fri May 23, 2008 11:15 am

Pyrrho wrote:Here's the story of a woman who allegedly had even developed rigor mortis and had flatlined...

One wonders if she would have done so well without mechanical life support, for 17 hours, but with all-powerful faith alone?

I suppose, only TEH LEWARD knows.
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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Fri May 23, 2008 11:57 am

I am very puzzled by the doctors saying they do not understand why she is alive when it is reported that

They rushed her to a West Virginia hospital. Doctors put Thomas on a special machine which induces hypothermia. The treatment involves lowering the body temperature for up to 24 hours before warming a patient up.


This is an example of the latest treatments! The boundaries between life and death are being redefined.

NEXT May, several hundred neurologists and philosophers will gather in the resort of Varadero, Cuba, for the fifth International Symposium on the Definition of Death. At first sight, defining death might not seem like something that requires much scientific or philosophical attention. Look more closely, though, and the line between life and death is rapidly becoming increasingly fuzzy.
“The line between life and death has become increasingly fuzzy”

The problem started some 40 years ago with the invention of ventilators - machines that keep lungs breathing and hearts pumping even after the brain has suffered extensive damage. This raised for the first time the question of whether people could or should be treated as dead simply because their brain is dead. One set of philosophers argues that the destruction of the frontal lobes, with the memories and personality they encode, is enough to declare someone dead. This definition includes those in a "permanent vegetative state" - permanently unaware, but with enough brain function left to breathe unaided. Others resist the idea of brain death altogether and insist that the heart must stop beating before a body can be treated as dead. The compromise "whole-brain-death" position, which has been written into law in most of the industrialised world, is that a person can only be declared dead if almost all brain function has been irreversibly destroyed.



http://www.newscientist.com/channel/hea ... alth_rss20

Death is an active process. After 15 minutes, many of our cells give off complicated biochemical signals that trigger their self-destruction, so one thing we can figure out is how to undo this death message. I think that's something we can do chemically. Cooling the body can protect the cells, although nobody knows how, so learning how to do this more quickly will be important. We're also trying to develop other therapies that will allow us to communicate better with cells.

So the death message causes the cell to shut down?

It's more than that - some cells blow up. The intense reintroduction of oxygen to oxygen-starved cells makes some cells actively explode. It is a program, like the Star Trek self-destruct sequence, and we've only just begun to learn about it. Other cells respond by quietly committing suicide. When cells die, they don't just run out of gas, they flip a series of switches that set off a self-destruct sequence and each cell kills itself in a very active and intentional way.
“When some cells die, they explode. It's like the Star Trek self-destruct sequence”

What provokes the death message?

There are competing chemical pathways in cells. We normally live with a few death signals and a few life signals that usually stay in balance. When the blood flow stops - a process called ischaemia - the death signals start to increase. The life signals try to keep up, but we've learned that the way we restore oxygen when we restart blood flow actually flips the balance so the death signals dominate.

So giving oxygen in resuscitation is actually a bad thing?

Giving oxygen can be a double-edged sword. You've got to have oxygen, but it has some positive effects and some negative effects. It was a big surprise when we first learned this. We grew cardiac cells that actually started to beat, and then we took their oxygen away. They stopped beating and just sat there. They didn't look too healthy but they didn't look dead. Then we gave the cells back their normal oxygen and under the intense conditions of reperfusion, they suddenly exploded.

We wrote it up and sent it to a journal, but they rejected it immediately, saying it couldn't be true. So we did more tests and were eventually able to publish our findings. It sparked our whole line of research into what we call reperfusion injury - the idea that giving the cells oxygen can kill them.

How can you improve that situation?

It may come down to new drugs and devices, as well as figuring out where exactly the death signals are coming from and somehow stopping them.

I think of the cell as being booby-trapped for death and there's actually an important reason for this. There are cells all the time that we have to kill off - old cells that aren't working too well, malignant cells that we don't want to grow into a cancer, infected cells that we don't want infecting the rest of the body. There's no way to have multicellular life without having very active death pathways. So we think that after ischaemia there's a response that tells more cells to die. If we can temporarily put that on hold, we can make significant headway.

How can you stop cells dying after ischaemia?

We can work on how we give oxygen and we can learn more about how mitochondria handle oxygen. A point of real surprise for me was when many indicators started to point to mitochondria as being not the organelles of energy, as I thought they were, but the organelles that control death. Many of us grew up thinking that mitochondria provide energy for the cell, but it turns out that one of their most important functions is cell death. That's a very new understanding. There are actually scientists who say that of the two functions - death and energy production - the more important one is death.

One of the differences between our, eukaryotic, cells and bacteria, which are prokaryotic, is that bacteria lack mitochondria. If you're a bacterium, what is your goal in life? To be two cells. What cells in our body are sort of like that? Cancer cells. So in many ways, cancer is a very natural thing, it's a throwback to the way our cells behaved before they had mitochondria.


http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opi ... brink.html

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Major Malfunction » Fri May 23, 2008 1:09 pm

*Writes in will*

Do no remove from life support. Do not donate organs. Occasionally poke.
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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Chachacha » Fri May 23, 2008 2:03 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:*Writes in will*

Do no remove from life support. Do not donate organs. Occasionally poke.


:lol:

It's a whole new ballgame, eh?

But you forgot "Pray a lot". Everyone knows that dead people only come back when people pray a lot. :beg:

But, you also make a good point - this will be another reason for people not to be designated organ donars. :(

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Chachacha » Fri May 23, 2008 2:15 pm

clivedurdle wrote:I am very puzzled by the doctors saying they do not understand why she is alive when it is reported that: "They rushed her to a West Virginia hospital. Doctors put Thomas on a special machine which induces hypothermia. The treatment involves lowering the body temperature for up to 24 hours before warming a patient up." This is an example of the latest treatments! The boundaries between life and death are being redefined.


Well said. Too bad the doctor they quoted didn't say it, but who knows how many doctors they had to talk to get that response? The report was about a "miracle" from God - not a "miracle" of modern medicine. :wink:

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Major Malfunction » Fri May 23, 2008 3:05 pm

Chachacha wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:Do not donate organs.
...this will be another reason for people not to be designated organ donars. :(

Don't be sad... You don't want my organs.

I've done a good job ensuring they're of no use to anyone but me.

You should pray you don't get my gibblets!
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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by Chachacha » Fri May 23, 2008 8:43 pm

*Insert Homer Simpson face here* Ymmmmmmm, giblets.

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Sat May 31, 2008 7:13 pm

It is allegedly sixteen people raised from the dead now!

Should we give up and advise governments to close down all health services?

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Re: Lakeland - people raised from dead

Post by clivedurdle » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:14 pm

The R-complex is named for the most advanced part of the brain higher mammals share with reptiles. It is responsible for rage[1], xenophobia[1], and basic survival fight-or-flight responses[1]. Often, the R-Complex can override the more rational function of the brain and result in unpredictable, primitive behavior in even the most sentient of creatures, humans included. A well developed and healthy neo-cortex can monitor R-Complex activity in sentient beings. The Reptilian complex is the most ancient part of a very successful brain scheme, evolutionarily speaking.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_brain

Are we witnessing a further example of how to access the reptillian complex of the human brain? Why are the neurologists, sociologists and psychologists not looking in detail at this fascinating human behaviour?

Where are the conferences, the textbooks, the exam questions?