What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu May 20, 2010 10:18 pm

Skeptagenarian wrote:... If I could crack my back and neck on my own, however, I would have no need to go.
As noted, above in this long thread, chiro for low back pain may be more-or-less as effective as other treatments (providing there are no contraindications).

However, if you let let a chiro snap your neck it can kill you, occasionally; but once is enough.

Blue_Wode
New Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Mon May 24, 2010 10:29 am

I wonder what the chiropractic industry will make of this, which was published by the UK General Chiropractic Council this morning:
GUIDANCE ON CLAIMS MADE FOR THE
CHIROPRACTIC VERTEBRAL SUBLUXATION COMPLEX

The chiropractic vertebral subluxation complex is an historical
concept but it remains a theoretical model. It is not supported by any
clinical research evidence that would allow claims to be made that it
is the cause of disease or health concerns.

Chiropractors are reminded that

 they must make sure their own beliefs and values do not
prejudice the patients’ care (GCC Code of Practice section A3)

 they must provide evidence based care, which is clinical
practice that incorporates the best available evidence from
research, the preferences of the patient and the expertise of
practitioners, including the individual chiropractor her/himself
(GCC Standard of Proficiency section A2.3 and the glossary)

 any advertised claims for chiropractic care must be based only
on best research of the highest standard (GCC Guidance on
Advertising issued March 2010)


May 2010
General Chiropractic Council
44 Wicklow Street
LONDON WC1X 9HL
T: 020 7713 5155
enquiries@gcc-uk.org
www.gcc-uk.org

http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/page_file/g ... y_2010.pdf


Skeptagenarian
New Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 8:41 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Skeptagenarian » Mon May 24, 2010 10:59 am

JJM wrote:
Skeptagenarian wrote:... If I could crack my back and neck on my own, however, I would have no need to go.
As noted, above in this long thread, chiro for low back pain may be more-or-less as effective as other treatments (providing there are no contraindications).

However, if you let let a chiro snap your neck it can kill you, occasionally; but once is enough.


Point noted and accepted, thank you. I knew of this before going. Prior to this my only other option was an expensive surgical procedure that also carried a low risk of fatality and an approximate odds of success amounting to about that of a coin toss.

Blue_Wode
New Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Tue May 25, 2010 11:05 am

A couple of interesting blog posts in relation to the UK General Chiropractic Council's newly released guidance on claims made for the Vertebral Subluxation Complex:

In Memoriam
http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/05/in-memoriam/

Born again, British Chiropractic Association joins skeptics “attack” on chiropractic
http://www.chiropracticlive.com/?p=697

It's obviously an issue that's concerning the chiropractic trade in the US:
"...rumors are that the state regulatory bodies in the US are working on defining chiropractic in a whole new light."

http://researchupdate.mccoypress.net/20 ... px?ref=rss


jdc
New Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:00 pm

I was interested to note that a recent supplement in the Guardian carried a list of non-playing personnel that England took to the World Cup. Oddly enough, there was no chiropractor listed. Back on pages 54 & 55 of this thread, THO was arguing that the presence of a chiropractor on the US Olympic team supporting the athletes was somehow meaningful. If chiropractors are such a boon to sportspeople, then how come England haven't bothered taking one to the World Cup?

</snark>
Blog: http://jdc325.wordpress.com/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/jdc325
Email: 325jdc325 (at) googlemail.com

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:07 pm

jdc wrote:I was interested to note that a recent supplement in the Guardian carried a list of non-playing personnel that England took to the World Cup. Oddly enough, there was no chiropractor listed. Back on pages 54 & 55 of this thread, THO was arguing that the presence of a chiropractor on the US Olympic team supporting the athletes was somehow meaningful. If chiropractors are such a boon to sportspeople, then how come England haven't bothered taking one to the World Cup?

</snark>

Well spotted. I'd forgotten about his claim. :thumbsup:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
True Skeptic
Posts: 10532
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:56 pm

brauneyz wrote:
jdc wrote:I was interested to note that a recent supplement in the Guardian carried a list of non-playing personnel that England took to the World Cup. Oddly enough, there was no chiropractor listed. Back on pages 54 & 55 of this thread, THO was arguing that the presence of a chiropractor on the US Olympic team supporting the athletes was somehow meaningful. If chiropractors are such a boon to sportspeople, then how come England haven't bothered taking one to the World Cup?

</snark>

Well spotted. I'd forgotten about his claim. :thumbsup:


Yes, well ...
The English goalkeeper muffed an easy save and allowed the American team to salvage a 1 - 1 tie.
Now I gotta figure out just what the Yankee chiro DID to that poor goalkeeper ... :scratch:
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29477
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:00 am

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5323#more-5323

No Education? No Training? No License? No Problem!
Published by Jann Bellamy under Acupuncture, Energy Medicine, Herbs & Supplements, Homeopathy, Politics and Regulation
June 7, 2010


When Daniel David Palmer, the inventor of chiropractic, and his acolytes first took up the practice of chiropractic, around the turn of the last century, they were jailed for the unlicensed practice of medicine. If history had left them there, we might not be fighting a continuing battle with the pseudoscience that is “alternative” medicine today.

Unfortunately, the Kansas legislature intervened on the chiropractors’ behalf and passed the first chiropractic practice act in 1913. Over the years, state by state, the notions that subluxations interfere with nerve flow, causing ill health, and that only chiropractors could “correct” these subluxations, thereby restoring health, were incorporated into state law. As well, chiropractors were given a broad scope of practice and allowed to call themselves “doctor.” In 1974, Louisiana’s passage of a chiropractic practice act made chiropractic legal in all 50 states.

. . .

... the laws of both Rhode Island and New Mexico are titled the “Unlicensed Health Care Practice Act.” At least they’re up front about it.

. . .

...As is common with other licensed “alternative” practitioners, unlicensed practitioners can’t perform surgery, prescribe drugs, invade the human body, use medical devices, or practice dentistry. They also cannot manipulate or adjust the articulations of joints or the spine, obviously in deference to the chiropractic lobby.

Then things get really weird.

"THEN" things get really weird?

If you can't perform surgery, prescribe drugs, invade the human body, use medical devices, practice dentistry, or manipulate or adjust the articulations of joints or the spine...what else is left? Psychiatry?

...there is virtually no limitation on what these unlicensed practitioners can do, as long as it falls into “the broad domain of complementary and alternative healing methods and treatments.” Given the facts that (1) these “healing methods” are made up, and (2) some are of fairly recent origin (e.g., cranial sacral therapy), it appears reasonable to conclude that one can simply create a “healing method,” call it “alternative,” and set up shop. The unemployed should take note.

Ohhhh, riiiight! :mrgreen:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Flash
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6001
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:09 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Flash » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:35 am

The aromatherapy. Why pay if it's free in your crapper every morning. :mrgreen:
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

jdc
New Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:13 pm

Deaths after chiropractic: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 2/abstract

Twenty six fatalities were published in the medical literature and many more might have remained unpublished.
Blog: http://jdc325.wordpress.com/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/jdc325
Email: 325jdc325 (at) googlemail.com

User avatar
Monster
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5008
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:57 pm
Location: Tarrytown, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Monster » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:29 pm

There's no way I'm reading the entirety of this thread.

However, I feel like unnecessarily injecting my unwanted opinion on chiropractic.

I had horrendous back pain on a single occassion in college. I got to the point where I could hardly move at all without excruciating pain. I went to the chiropractor and got a few adjustments. It cleared up the back problem.

The benefit most likely came from what is essentially fancy massage. I had the usual adjustments with the popping sounds. I lied on a massaging table with rollers rolling against my back. I had some mild electric shocks on my back while I was being rolled. It was actually quite relaxing.

I went to a different chiropractor years later. I don't remember what my problem was. The chiropractor was an utter quack. And that was the last time I went to a chiropractor.
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:06 pm

If one searches on google for chiropractic, chirobase and skepdic (both critical of chiro) come up on the first page. It has been suggested that that can be changed by logging on to a google account and clicking on the blue stars associated with each site http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpac ... p?id=54777

I suppose we can work against them by logging on and clicking on the stars next to chirobase and skepdic. The procedure is described in the site to which I linked.

jdc
New Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:44 pm

JJM wrote:If one searches on google for chiropractic, chirobase and skepdic (both critical of chiro) come up on the first page. It has been suggested that that can be changed by logging on to a google account and clicking on the blue stars associated with each site http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpac ... p?id=54777

I suppose we can work against them by logging on and clicking on the stars next to chirobase and skepdic. The procedure is described in the site to which I linked.

I saw that article via Twitter (it was actually tweeted by someone who's contributed to this thread, funnily enough). Wrote a wee blogpost about it: http://jdc325.posterous.com/ahh-the-chi ... nt-to-play

Why are Dynamic Chiropractic unhappy? Well, they are worried that if Skepdic and Chirobase appear on the first page of Google results people might "learn about chiropractic from them". The very idea seems to appal Dynamic Chiropractic, so I thought I'd do my bit and link to Skepdic and Chirobase using terms such as chiropractor and chiropractic.
Blog: http://jdc325.wordpress.com/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/jdc325
Email: 325jdc325 (at) googlemail.com

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:18 pm

jdc wrote:I saw that article via Twitter (it was actually tweeted by someone who's contributed to this thread, funnily enough). Wrote a wee blogpost about it: http://jdc325.posterous.com/ahh-the-chi ... nt-to-play
Great, I was going to suggest that.

User avatar
skepticdoc
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:20 pm

Deaths after Chiropractic: A Review of Published Cases

Int J Clin Pract. 2010;64(10):1162-1165. © 2010 Blackwell Publishing

Conclusion: Numerous deaths have occurred after chiropractic manipulations. The risks of this treatment by far outweigh its benefit.

This review is focussed on deaths after chiropractic, yet neck manipulations are, of course, used by other healthcare professionals as well. The reason for this focus is simple: chiropractors are more frequently associated with serious manipulation-related adverse effects than osteopaths, physiotherapists, doctors or other professionals. Of the 40 cases of serious adverse effects mentioned above, 28 can be traced back to a chiropractor and none to an osteopath.[34] A review of complications after spinal manipulations by any type of healthcare professional included three deaths related to osteopaths, nine to medical practitioners, none to a physiotherapist, one to a naturopath and 17 to chiropractors.[35] This article also summarised a total of 265 vascular accidents of which 142 were linked to chiropractors. Another review of complications after neck manipulations published by 1997 included 177 vascular accidents, 32 of which were fatal. The vast majority of these cases were associated with chiropractic and none with physiotherapy.[36] The most obvious explanation for the dominance of chiropractic is that chiropractors routinely employ high-velocity, short-lever thrusts on the upper spine with a rotational element, while the other healthcare professionals use them much more sparingly.[37,38]

In conclusion, numerous deaths have been associated with chiropractic neck manipulations. There are reasons to suspect that under-reporting is substantial and reliable incidence figures do not exist. The risks of chiropractic neck manipulations by far outweigh their benefits. Healthcare professionals should advise the public accordingly.

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:37 pm

Thanks; but that should be Int J Clin Pract. 2010;64(108):1162-1165. The author is Edzard Ernst.

User avatar
skepticdoc
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:11 pm

I just copied and pasted form an e-mail link!

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:55 pm

skepticdoc wrote:I just copied and pasted form an e-mail link!
It looked like it, I wonder where the typo crept in.

There is a good article on chiro today http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6839

Blue_Wode
New Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:19 pm

What's wrong with chiropractors in the news again:
Researchers advise parents not to take children to chiropractors

Medical researchers Professor Shaun Holt and Andrew Gilbey have issued a strong warning against parents taking their children to see a chiropractor for any reason. Many chiropractic practices and organizations, in New Zealand and overseas, advocate routine spinal manipulation in infants and children, for conditions ranging from ear infections, colic and asthma to ADHD and even cancer.

"There is no plausible explanation why high-velocity manipulation of the spine can help children with these medical conditions, it is an extraordinary claim" said Professor Holt. "Given that this is a multibillion dollar industry, the lack of good research that has been undertaken is staggering. There is also evidence that many chiropractors advise against routine childhood immunizations, which is irresponsible.”

Andrew Gilbey said that “there are some serious safety concerns related to the unnecessary use of x-rays and the manipulation of childrens’ spines and so we advise parents to instead consult their family doctor who has been trained to recognize and treat a wide range of medical problems.

-snip-

Holt and Gilbey's advice echoes similar warnings issued by paediatricians overseas. The Australian Medical Association has stated that chiropractic care for children is a waste of money and inappropriate. They advise parents who are worried about any aspect of their children's health to consult a medical doctor.

More...
http://www.infonews.co.nz/news.cfm?id=59215


User avatar
ShadowSot
Poster
Posts: 184
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:15 pm
Custom Title: Monkey

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby ShadowSot » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:17 pm

I got a kick out of a chiropractor that visited work.

He examined me, and then proudly exclaimed that I was right handed.
I am proud to say I am left handed, and in my right mind.
"The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools".

– Thucydides

HUMOR

ah1whiskey
New Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:51 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby ah1whiskey » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:03 am

everything.

tcmdoc
New Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby tcmdoc » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:19 am

I know several great chiropractors, but their education scares me. Half of what chiros study in school is business and marketing. Does anyone else find this a problem?

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:47 pm

tcmdoc wrote:I know several great chiropractors, but their education scares me.
How do you define "great?"

tcmdoc wrote:Half of what chiros study in school is business and marketing. Does anyone else find this a problem?
Yes it is a problem- chiros are fundamentally merchants of snake oil. However, the bigger problem is their ignorance of health care.

tcmdoc
New Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby tcmdoc » Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:35 pm

I define "great" as caring, competent individuals who have treated me and reduced my pain. As in any field, there will be better and worse practitioners. Mind you, I'm never going to let anyone crack my neck or spine, but the tissue manipulations they did on me were like a massage or physio treatment.

Which brings me to physio - apparently none of their manipulations and treatments have been clinically tested. Whoops.

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:40 pm

tcmdoc wrote:I define "great" as caring, competent individuals who have treated me and reduced my pain. As in any field, there will be better and worse practitioners. Mind you, I'm never going to let anyone crack my neck or spine, but the tissue manipulations they did on me were like a massage or physio treatment.
So, you are content to pay extra for a massage. It has already been established that chiros are mere masseurs, with delusions of grandeur.

tcmdoc wrote:Which brings me to physio - apparently none of their manipulations and treatments have been clinically tested. Whoops.
Bollocks! You must have heard this from a chiro. Funny, when chiros are pressed to come up with justification for things they do, they usually cite PT literature (while claiming they are better than PTs).

tcmdoc
New Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby tcmdoc » Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:31 pm

Nope, heard it from an PT/OT. They'll admit it themselves.

I am content to pay for what makes me feel good. An RMT wasn't up to the task.

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:23 pm

tcmdoc wrote:Nope, heard it ["none of their manipulations and treatments have been clinically tested"] from an PT/OT. They'll admit it themselves. ...
"None" really? Let's look at the latest issue of "Physical Therapy" the journal of the American PT Association:
Effects of Traditional Sit-up Training Versus Core Stabilization Exercises on Short-Term Musculoskeletal Injuries in US Army Soldiers: A Cluster Randomized Trial * John D. Childs, et al PHYS THER October 2010 90:1404-1412; published ahead of print July 22, 2010, doi:10.2522/ptj.20090389

Cancer-Related Fatigue and Rehabilitation: A Randomized Controlled Multicenter Trial Comparing Physical Training Combined With Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy With Physical Training Only and With No Intervention * Ellen van Weert, et al PHYS THER October 2010 90:1413-1425; published ahead of print July 22, 2010, doi:10.2522/ptj.20090212

Motor Control Exercises, Sling Exercises, and General Exercises for Patients With Chronic Low Back Pain: A Randomized Controlled Trial With 1-Year Follow-up * Monica Unsgaard-Tøndel, et al PHYS THER October 2010 90:1426-1440; published ahead of print July 29, 2010, doi:10.2522/ptj.20090421
I could continue; but I hope this gives you the idea. Either you misunderstood, or someone was being flip.

On the other hand, the only chiro procedure that has any clinical support is treatment of low back pain, and the evidence is only so-so. Yet they have more than 100 "methods" of treatment.

tcmdoc
New Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby tcmdoc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:06 pm

Sorry, I meant to say double blind tested, which is the definitive exploration in my opinion, although difficult and costly to perform. That is, what would happen to a similar person with a similar injury who did not receive PT. Is there statistical significance between those who just get better on their own, versus those who had PT?

I'm all for stretching and exercise and so on, which both chiros and PTs do. But PTs do some pretty weird stuff themselves.

Just because something has "been done" and hasn't hurt anyone doesn't mean that we should whole heartedly embrace it as a modality. Injuries heal. We've been doing that ourselves for an awfully long time.

And whose clinical support counts? The AMA? I wouldn't trust them one little bit. There are a few fairly clever chiros out there. Anecdotal evidence may be only anecdotal, but those stories add up to a pattern sometimes.

User avatar
Blacksamwell
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:21 am
Custom Title: Buckfutter
Location: Columbia, Missouri, U.S.A.

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blacksamwell » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:13 pm

tcmdoc wrote:Anecdotal evidence may be only anecdotal, but those stories add up to a pattern sometimes.


Our brains are wired for pattern recognition to such an extent that we often see patterns where none really exist. That's why any "pattern" one might point to must be confirmed with testing.

The anecdotal patterns merely suggest avenues for research and testing, by which then real evidence is gathered.

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:49 pm

tcmdoc wrote:... Just because something has "been done" and hasn't hurt anyone doesn't mean that we should whole heartedly embrace it as a modality. ...
Who said we should?

tcmdoc wrote:And whose clinical support counts? The AMA? I wouldn't trust them one little bit. ...
Technically, the AMA does not offer clinical support. However, why wouldn't you trust the AMA when you obviously trust snake oil?

tcmdoc
New Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby tcmdoc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:16 pm

How is stretching snake oil?

tcmdoc
New Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby tcmdoc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:28 pm

Blacksamwell wrote:
tcmdoc wrote:Anecdotal evidence may be only anecdotal, but those stories add up to a pattern sometimes.


Our brains are wired for pattern recognition to such an extent that we often see patterns where none really exist. That's why any "pattern" one might point to must be confirmed with testing.

The anecdotal patterns merely suggest avenues for research and testing, by which then real evidence is gathered.


I agree, pattern recognition is a human wiring issue. But...When does something stop being detection bias and start being fact? What is the threshold number for that?

User avatar
fromthehills
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9890
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:01 am
Location: Woostone

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby fromthehills » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:39 pm

Blacksamwell wrote:
tcmdoc wrote:Anecdotal evidence may be only anecdotal, but those stories add up to a pattern sometimes.


Our brains are wired for pattern recognition to such an extent that we often see patterns where none really exist. That's why any "pattern" one might point to must be confirmed with testing.

The anecdotal patterns merely suggest avenues for research and testing, by which then real evidence is gathered.


Exactly.

I would like to see more studies on placebo, as I often suspect is what is going on with chiropractic. If the anecdotal evidence points to chiropractic working for relief of pain, including my own experience some years ago, why don't we look into placebo more? Not saying as in offering it as treatment, but possibly corner the cause for something testable.

User avatar
Blacksamwell
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:21 am
Custom Title: Buckfutter
Location: Columbia, Missouri, U.S.A.

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blacksamwell » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:48 pm

tcmdoc wrote:I agree, pattern recognition is a human wiring issue. But...When does something stop being detection bias and start being fact? What is the threshold number for that?


There is no threshold number by which you can stack anecdotes and declare them to be empirical evidence.

Scientific study moves beyond detection bias when it constructs a theory and actively tests the theory with experiments. Testing confirms the pattern to be real and not simply detection bias.

tcmdoc
New Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby tcmdoc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:53 pm

There is no threshold number by which you can stack anecdotes and declare them to be empirical evidence.

-Fer sure, but when do you start? When you see it once? Ten times? A hundred?

Scientific study moves beyond detection bias when it constructs a theory and actively tests the theory with experiments. Testing confirms the pattern to be real and not simply detection bias.[/quote]

But when does your hypothesis/ null hypothesis start? That's what I'm asking. How many times to you have to see or experience something before you think it's valid enough to start testing?

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:29 pm

tcmdoc wrote:... How many times to you have to see or experience something before you think it's valid enough to start testing?
In principle, just once- if it is truly startling and compelling (and easy to test). It requires a lot of expertise and experience, though, to choose such a case. And, very likely the expert will be wrong.

tcmdoc
New Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby tcmdoc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:31 pm

Don't forget a lot of money. Especially if it involves experimenting on human beings.

User avatar
Blacksamwell
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:21 am
Custom Title: Buckfutter
Location: Columbia, Missouri, U.S.A.

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blacksamwell » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:57 pm

tcmdoc wrote:That's what I'm asking. How many times to you have to see or experience something before you think it's valid enough to start testing?


If an individual had unlimited resources, they could do so at any time for any reason. They wouldn't even need to see it once to begin.

But if you must convince others to provide the resources for the research, then a compelling argument must be made and that may require more readily apparent patterns.

Blue_Wode
New Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:23 pm

Bearing in mind that the title of this thread is 'What's Wrong With Chiropractors?', here are two very recent blog posts explaining what's wrong with UK chiropractors:

Chiropractors at war with their regulator, the GCC
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2010/11 ... e-gcc.html

Where the evidence leads
http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/11/where- ... nce-leads/

Enjoy.

4sure
BANNED
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby 4sure » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:43 pm

What's wrong with chiropractors? They make more money than they deserve!


Return to “Healthcare”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest