What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
JJM
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:26 pm

landrew wrote:Be careful of using consensus as proof. Opinions can be bought and sold for a price, but I think if you wanted to put the legitimacy of Chiropractic up to a public vote it would soundly win.
Your first sentence is a warning about the appeal to popularity, and your second is an appeal to popularity. Hmmm. Would you submit ID-Creationism to a public poll to determine its validity? On a technical topic a public vote is useless. Maybe that is just me.

landrew wrote:The laws of malpractice and fraud are well defined, and until the entire discipline of Chiropractic falls under those definitions, it's here to stay, whether Big Pharma wants it or not.
If the laws are well-defined, then chiro must fall under them. Those laws may define them as excluded; but no, there are cases where chiros have been successfully sued for malpractice and fraud; so your statement makes no sense. Chiro is here to stay because of the unwashed masses in Congress and state legislatures who can make many people happy for free by approving chiro because of public support.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:31 pm

landrew wrote:
jdc wrote:
landrew wrote:Be careful of using consensus as proof. Opinions can be bought and sold for a price, but I think if you wanted to put the legitimacy of Chiropractic up to a public vote it would soundly win.

The laws of malpractice and fraud are well defined, and until the entire discipline of Chiropractic falls under those definitions, it's here to stay, whether Big Pharma wants it or not.

You've missed my point. It's over here ------------------->

The only points I ever tried to make are summed up above.

Hm. Here's what I was trying to say in the above post: You have missed my point. You have misunderstood what I have written.

To expand: My point was not that "lots of people criticise chiropractic therefore they must be right" - my point was that quite apart from the bogus debate over NCAHF / Barrett being "a paid lobby instrument for big business" (a hollow sham of a debate, based on absolutely bugger all), there are many others criticising the claims of chiropractors who have not even been smeared by alt med advocates. That was the point that you missed. Even if Barrett / NCAHF were funded by Evil Big Pharma (or whoever), there are plenty of others criticising chiropractic. Some of these I know, with 100% certainty, are not being funded by anyone - not Big Pharma, not anyone. You can attempt to dismiss Barrett / NCAHF by repeating baseless assertions made by others and already refuted - but that will not help you. Even if you dismiss Barrett / NCAHF on the basis of, well, absolutely nothing, you still must deal with the valid criticisms made by others.

I expect chiropractors and other advocates of alternative medicine to cherry-pick evidence and to mistake a collection of anecdotes for data (it's what they do best, frankly), I hadn't quite expected alt med advocates to base their position on groundless speculation and mud flinging. Have you considered playing the ball rather than the man? I think it makes for a better debate.

Engage with the criticism and argue against the points being made rather than dismissing critics by smearing them - and we might have something to discuss.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:45 pm

landrew wrote:... Any guesses why there's no "Quackwatch" article on Wikipedia? Here's a hint: they don't want the introspection.
Where do you get your information? A True SkepticTM would have checked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:56 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:... Any guesses why there's no "Quackwatch" article on Wikipedia? Here's a hint: they don't want the introspection.
Where do you get your information? A True SkepticTM would have checked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch

Ha, priceless.

I took a look at the nomination for deletion - the person who wanted the page to be deleted seemed to be complaining about the page being favourable to Quackwatch. So, er, probably not Barrett et al then...
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:24 pm

jdc wrote:
JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:... Any guesses why there's no "Quackwatch" article on Wikipedia? Here's a hint: they don't want the introspection.
Where do you get your information? A True SkepticTM would have checked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch

Ha, priceless.

I took a look at the nomination for deletion - the person who wanted the page to be deleted seemed to be complaining about the page being favourable to Quackwatch. So, er, probably not Barrett et al then...

I challenged JJM's use of Quackwatch as a legitimate source. I searched Wikipedia for "Quackwatch" and found no such article. A google search for "Quackwatch" also did not show a Wikipedia article. The fact that the article is being removed and reinstated on Wikipedia does nothing for it's credibility.

JJM's incessant tactic of turning every challenge to his claims around to put all the burden of proof on the other side to "prove" him wrong is wearing very thin.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:48 pm

landrew wrote:
jdc wrote:
JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:... Any guesses why there's no "Quackwatch" article on Wikipedia? Here's a hint: they don't want the introspection.
Where do you get your information? A True SkepticTM would have checked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch

Ha, priceless.

I took a look at the nomination for deletion - the person who wanted the page to be deleted seemed to be complaining about the page being favourable to Quackwatch. So, er, probably not Barrett et al then...

I challenged JJM's use of Quackwatch as a legitimate source. I searched Wikipedia for "Quackwatch" and found no such article. A google search for "Quackwatch" also did not show a Wikipedia article. The fact that the article is being removed and reinstated on Wikipedia does nothing for it's credibility.

JJM's incessant tactic of turning every challenge to his claims around to put all the burden of proof on the other side to "prove" him wrong is wearing very thin.


If a hypothesis is falsifiable, it is subject to investigation by the scientific method. If it cannot be falsified, it is outside the purview of science.
As you have pointed out many times, science cannot prove anything true, it can only prove a hypothesis is false. If you disagree with an assertion, apply good skepticism and falsify it. If you can.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:59 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
landrew wrote:
jdc wrote:
JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:... Any guesses why there's no "Quackwatch" article on Wikipedia? Here's a hint: they don't want the introspection.
Where do you get your information? A True SkepticTM would have checked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch

Ha, priceless.

I took a look at the nomination for deletion - the person who wanted the page to be deleted seemed to be complaining about the page being favourable to Quackwatch. So, er, probably not Barrett et al then...

I challenged JJM's use of Quackwatch as a legitimate source. I searched Wikipedia for "Quackwatch" and found no such article. A google search for "Quackwatch" also did not show a Wikipedia article. The fact that the article is being removed and reinstated on Wikipedia does nothing for it's credibility.

JJM's incessant tactic of turning every challenge to his claims around to put all the burden of proof on the other side to "prove" him wrong is wearing very thin.


If a hypothesis is falsifiable, it is subject to investigation by the scientific method. If it cannot be falsified, it is outside the purview of science.
As you have pointed out many times, science cannot prove anything true, it can only prove a hypothesis is false. If you disagree with an assertion, apply good skepticism and falsify it. If you can.

I received a letter from my cellphone provider in 1993, urging me not to be concerned about all the talk of "cellphones causing cancer," and that they were intending to fund research to "prove" that not to be the case. Needless to say, I didn't find that letter to be the least bit reassuring.

I should add that the power levels of cellphones today are a tiny fraction of what they were in those days, but the issue still hasn't gone away.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:41 pm

landrew wrote:I challenged JJM's use of Quackwatch as a legitimate source. I searched Wikipedia for "Quackwatch" and found no such article. A google search for "Quackwatch" also did not show a Wikipedia article. ...
A google search immediately led me to the wiki quackwatch article which you claimed did not exist; it has nothing to do with the validity of quackwatch, just your ability to be factual and the need for you to cite sources.

Don't mistake my point- I think you want to do things correctly, you just are in over your head in this matter. I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:13 pm

JJM wrote: I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.

Now there's a claim, just begging to be falsified.
I'll get back to you on that.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:25 pm

landrew wrote:
JJM wrote: I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.
Now there's a claim, just begging to be falsified. I'll get back to you on that.
I won't hold my breath ...

Meanwhile, there is great news from England- the British Chiropractic Association has dropped their libel suit against Simon Singh!

Two years ago he published an opinion piece in a newspaper saying they have no evidence for the benefit of chiro in childhood conditions such as colic, asthma, etc. Yesterday they conceded that those claims are unfounded. http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1853

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:56 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:
JJM wrote: I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.
Now there's a claim, just begging to be falsified. I'll get back to you on that.
I won't hold my breath ...

Meanwhile, there is great news from England- the British Chiropractic Association has dropped their libel suit against Simon Singh!

Two years ago he published an opinion piece in a newspaper saying they have no evidence for the benefit of chiro in childhood conditions such as colic, asthma, etc. Yesterday they conceded that those claims are unfounded. http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1853


I'd be a lot happier if the BCA said that they had dropped the suit because Singh was right.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:04 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:I'd be a lot happier if the BCA said that they had dropped the suit because Singh was right.
I agree, however- here is their statement: http://www.chiropractic-uk.co.uk/gfx/up ... 202010.pdf

Notice that they "accept" Simon's statement that he had not accused them of dishonesty. The flip side of that is Simon accused them of not knowing what they are doing. I wonder if they accept that ...

I await Simon's book.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:25 pm

This is not an unfounded assertion (as JJM would label it) that Quackbusters is a fraudulent organization which serves the Big Pharma lobby.

Rather, it is more than reasonable doubt against his default stance that "there's no reason to doubt that what Quackbusters says, stands as true unless proven different."

http://www.encognitive.com/node/1213
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:09 am

landrew wrote:This is not an unfounded assertion (as JJM would label it) that Quackbusters is a fraudulent organization which serves the Big Pharma lobby.

Rather, it is more than reasonable doubt against his default stance that "there's no reason to doubt that what Quackbusters says, stands as true unless proven different."

http://www.encognitive.com/node/1213
So, Landy found a site on the Web that agrees with him! True SkepticsTM know what that means- there's a site on the Web that agrees with him. It is all neatly typed, it must be true, no need to check facts ... Wait, there are no citations; but it is a scholarly work that refers to the author of the other opinions (Tim Bolen) who served Landy so well in the past. The same source of his "knowledge" that Dr. Barrett lost his medical license and that there is no Wiki page for Quackwatch. Didn't you notice that your new source propagates the fallacy that Barrett lost his medical license? That would have been an easy fact for you to check. What would a True SkepticTM have done?
landrew wrote:
JJM wrote:I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.
Now there's a claim, just begging to be falsified. I'll get back to you on that.
No you won't, at least not in the way of a True ScientistTM who would read and comment on the factual material at www.quackwatch.org .

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat May 08, 2010 12:11 am

landrew wrote:
JJM wrote: I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.

Now there's a claim, just begging to be falsified.
I'll get back to you on that.

:roll: Bump! Where is your analysis?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sat May 08, 2010 4:32 am

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:
JJM wrote: I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.

Now there's a claim, just begging to be falsified.
I'll get back to you on that.

:roll: Bump! Where is your analysis?

The conflict is more important than the argument with you.

Same analysis as always.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat May 08, 2010 11:11 am

landrew wrote:
JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:
JJM wrote: I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.

Now there's a claim, just begging to be falsified.
I'll get back to you on that.

:roll: Bump! Where is your analysis?

The conflict is more important than the argument with you. [Whatever that means, JJM]

Same analysis as always.
So, you concede that you cannot find anything wrong- I knew you would.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sat May 08, 2010 4:54 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:
JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:
JJM wrote: I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.

Now there's a claim, just begging to be falsified.
I'll get back to you on that.

:roll: Bump! Where is your analysis?

The conflict is more important than the argument with you. [Whatever that means, JJM]

Same analysis as always.
So, you concede that you cannot find anything wrong- I knew you would.

OK, you win, here's a banana. That's all you're ever interested in, so I won't waste any more time arguing with you.

I don't care if you declare victory, because it's always under your own special terms of reference anyway. Have a nice day.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat May 08, 2010 9:29 pm

landrew wrote:... OK, you win ... I won't waste any more time arguing with you. ...
Great! I hope that means that in the future you will just bring in reliable information, and keep quiet when all you have is nonsense about gray boxes and X=0 and biases and fear and instant dismissal of anecdotes and ... and ... (sorry, I've lost track of all the cliches you've generated).

The fact is www.quackwatch.org is the most comprehensive source of factual material concerning so-called CAM on the Internet.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Sun May 09, 2010 5:22 am

landrew wrote:...here's a banana. That's all you're ever interested in....

This from the guy with the monkey avatar. :nuts:
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sun May 09, 2010 7:14 am

Gord wrote:
landrew wrote:...here's a banana. That's all you're ever interested in....

This from the guy with the monkey avatar. :nuts:

Chimps are not monkeys!
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Sun May 09, 2010 7:30 am

landrew wrote:
Gord wrote:
landrew wrote:...here's a banana. That's all you're ever interested in....

This from the guy with the monkey avatar. :nuts:

Chimps are not monkeys!

Eat a banana!
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sat May 15, 2010 1:31 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:
JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:
JJM wrote: I reiterate, if you want to discredit quackwatch you have to cite serious mistakes published at that site. I know they don't exist.

Now there's a claim, just begging to be falsified.
I'll get back to you on that.

:roll: Bump! Where is your analysis?

The conflict is more important than the argument with you. [Whatever that means, JJM]

Same analysis as always.
So, you concede that you cannot find anything wrong- I knew you would.

So... after all the claims about Quackwatch we have no valid criticism of the information on the site? And no evidence to support the smears against Barrett and NCAHF.

As I said earlier:
The allegation that NCAHF and/or Barrett are "a paid lobby instrument for big business" seems to be baseless...
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sat May 15, 2010 2:15 pm

jdc wrote:The allegation that NCAHF and/or Barrett are "a paid lobby instrument for big business" seems to be baseless...

Here's a pretty big effort to make a case against Quackwatch:
http://www.encognitive.com/node/1213

Now, you can either dismiss it all wholesale as a non-credible source, or you can refute each of it's claims, one by one.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Pyrrho » Sat May 15, 2010 2:20 pm

landrew wrote:
jdc wrote:The allegation that NCAHF and/or Barrett are "a paid lobby instrument for big business" seems to be baseless...

Here's a pretty big effort to make a case against Quackwatch:
http://www.encognitive.com/node/1213

Now, you can either dismiss it all wholesale as a non-credible source, or you can refute each of it's claims, one by one.

No, the question is not whether we can refute the claims. The question is where they can support each and every one of their claims and conspiracy theories with examinable evidence.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sat May 15, 2010 2:22 pm

What's wrong with chiropractors? Well, here's an example: http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2010/05/14/ ... or-autism/

Discover Chiropractic have sent out a newsletter with the heading "Chiropractic and Autism: Studies Give Hope". The two studies cited are (1) what seems to be an unsystematic review and (2) a paper that doesn't mention blinding, fails to state the hypothesis of the authors in the abstract, reports on a study with only 14 subjects, has no control group, relies on evaluation by parents, and does not comment on the reliability and validity of the evaluation checklist used. A commenter on my blog also wondered "whether the x-rays could be ethically justified".
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Pyrrho » Sat May 15, 2010 2:30 pm

I will add here the usual statement about logical fallacies, in particular the perennial favorite, argumentum ad hominem. For example, attacks on Steven Barrett's character do not validate "alternative" medical treatments. Diverting the argument to refuting slander and libel distracts from the main question: is there any scientific medical basis for chiropractic treatments? The same applies to "alternative" medical treatments: the question is whether or not these treatments meet stringent tests for safety and efficacy, not whether or not people who question their safety and efficacy have lost court cases or are subject to personal attacks because they have done so.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Pyrrho » Sat May 15, 2010 2:34 pm

landrew wrote:
jdc wrote:The allegation that NCAHF and/or Barrett are "a paid lobby instrument for big business" seems to be baseless...

Here's a pretty big effort to make a case against Quackwatch:
http://www.encognitive.com/node/1213

Now, you can either dismiss it all wholesale as a non-credible source, or you can refute each of it's claims, one by one.

Regarding the author of the article you linked, here is Barrett's response.

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/bolen.html

I suggest we keep the discussion focused on the medical issues, and avoid sidetracking into the libel pit.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sat May 15, 2010 2:55 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
landrew wrote:
jdc wrote:The allegation that NCAHF and/or Barrett are "a paid lobby instrument for big business" seems to be baseless...

Here's a pretty big effort to make a case against Quackwatch:
http://www.encognitive.com/node/1213

Now, you can either dismiss it all wholesale as a non-credible source, or you can refute each of it's claims, one by one.

Regarding the author of the article you linked, here is Barrett's response.

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/bolen.html

I suggest we keep the discussion focused on the medical issues, and avoid sidetracking into the libel pit.

I'd just to make my last word on this subject, that I'm skeptical of the pure motives being expounded by Quackwatch.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Pyrrho » Sat May 15, 2010 3:03 pm

landrew wrote:I'd just to make my last word on this subject, that I'm skeptical of the pure motives being expounded by Quackwatch.

Okay, but surely you do realize that Quackwatch motives are not relevant to the question of safety and efficacy of chiropractic and other "alternative" treatments.

http://www.quackwatch.org/00AboutQuackw ... ssion.html

Sources of Income

The total cost of operating all of our sites and research activities runs between $7,000 and $10,000 per year. Quackwatch has never had any salaried employees. It operates with minimal expense, funded mainly by small individual donations, commissions from sales on other sites to which we refer, and profits from the sale of publications. If its income falls below what is needed for the research, the rest comes out of Dr. Barrett's pocket. Except for the sales commissions, neither Quackwatch nor Dr. Barrett have any financial tie to any commercial or industrial organization.


http://www.quackwatch.org/00AboutQuackw ... nding.html

Many people wonder whether Quackwatch is a "front" for the American Medical Association, the pharmaceutical industry, the "medical establishment," or whomever else they might not like. Nearly every week I get e-mails accusing me of this—and worse. Quite frankly, the idea is preposterous.

* I have no financial tie to any commercial or industrial organization.
* My viewpoints are not for hire. Even if they were, none of my imaginary funders would actually have a reason to hire me.
* Standard medicine and "alternative medicine" do not actually compete for patient dollars. Well-designed studies have shown that most "alternative" methods are used in addition to—rather than instead of—standard methods.
* The total cost of operating our many Web sites is approximately $7,000 per year. If donations fall below what is needed, the rest comes out of my pocket.


Must be lying, I guess.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sat May 15, 2010 3:08 pm

landrew wrote:
jdc wrote:The allegation that NCAHF and/or Barrett are "a paid lobby instrument for big business" seems to be baseless...

Here's a pretty big effort to make a case against Quackwatch:
http://www.encognitive.com/node/1213

Now, you can either dismiss it all wholesale as a non-credible source, or you can refute each of it's claims, one by one.

I'm not sure how one goes about refuting a claim that is totally unsupported. The website has lots of quotes about Barrett and quotes purporting to be from Barrett - but no references. I can't chase up the quotes to see if they can be verified, because I don't know where they came from. If they have evidence, then they should provide it. Perhaps this should go on the list at Evidence Or STFU: http://evidence-stfu.blogspot.com/

When legal blogger Jack of Kent discusses court rulings, he links to them. For example, here: http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2010/05/ ... libel.html This means that I can see the original text for myself. Why doesn't the website you link to do likewise?

It's perhaps also worth noting Ben Goldacre's take on people who don't link to sources:

http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/risk-factors-for-being-a-gigantic-waste-of-sp wrote:1. linking to primary sources. i include newspapers here, especially, as the biggest offenders: if you don't link to primary sources, press release, academic journal, whatever, you're basically dead to me. this is especially true for commentators: when they don't link to the argument they claim to be responding to, so many times i've silently bet myself that they're strawmanning it, had a hunt, and then been proved right, often enough that these days i generally just discount people outright if they don't link to the argument they say they're responding to.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sat May 15, 2010 3:16 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
landrew wrote:I'd just to make my last word on this subject, that I'm skeptical of the pure motives being expounded by Quackwatch.

Okay, but surely you do realize that Quackwatch motives are not relevant to the question of safety and efficacy of chiropractic and other "alternative" treatments.

http://www.quackwatch.org/00AboutQuackw ... ssion.html

Sources of Income

The total cost of operating all of our sites and research activities runs between $7,000 and $10,000 per year. Quackwatch has never had any salaried employees. It operates with minimal expense, funded mainly by small individual donations, commissions from sales on other sites to which we refer, and profits from the sale of publications. If its income falls below what is needed for the research, the rest comes out of Dr. Barrett's pocket. Except for the sales commissions, neither Quackwatch nor Dr. Barrett have any financial tie to any commercial or industrial organization.


http://www.quackwatch.org/00AboutQuackw ... nding.html

Many people wonder whether Quackwatch is a "front" for the American Medical Association, the pharmaceutical industry, the "medical establishment," or whomever else they might not like. Nearly every week I get e-mails accusing me of this—and worse. Quite frankly, the idea is preposterous.

* I have no financial tie to any commercial or industrial organization.
* My viewpoints are not for hire. Even if they were, none of my imaginary funders would actually have a reason to hire me.
* Standard medicine and "alternative medicine" do not actually compete for patient dollars. Well-designed studies have shown that most "alternative" methods are used in addition to—rather than instead of—standard methods.
* The total cost of operating our many Web sites is approximately $7,000 per year. If donations fall below what is needed, the rest comes out of my pocket.


Must be lying, I guess.

I do know that public records show a great deal of money from Big Pharma pouring into Quackwatch before they stopped disclosing that information. He can say anything he wants if there's no way to check the facts.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat May 15, 2010 3:54 pm

landrew wrote:I do know that public records show a great deal of money from Big Pharma pouring into Quackwatch before they stopped disclosing that information. ...
That is a claim- cite your evidence.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Sat May 15, 2010 4:13 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:I do know that public records show a great deal of money from Big Pharma pouring into Quackwatch before they stopped disclosing that information. ...
That is a claim- cite your evidence.

He can show you, but then he'd have to kill you. :D
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sat May 15, 2010 4:16 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:I do know that public records show a great deal of money from Big Pharma pouring into Quackwatch before they stopped disclosing that information. ...
That is a claim- cite your evidence.

So, these public records... can you link to them? If not, can you tell us how the public can access them? Actually, if you "know that public records show a great deal of money from Big Pharma pouring into Quackwatch", then you must have seen them - so perhaps you can pass them on? Do you still have copies of these public records? My email address appears at the bottom of each of my posts, so if you can't upload the documentary evidence to this forum please feel free to email it to me. I'm sure if you only have the paper copies, someone will let you use their scanner and you can send me a PDF.

I look forward to seeing your evidence.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sat May 15, 2010 5:02 pm

jdc wrote:
JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:I do know that public records show a great deal of money from Big Pharma pouring into Quackwatch before they stopped disclosing that information. ...
That is a claim- cite your evidence.

So, these public records... can you link to them? If not, can you tell us how the public can access them? Actually, if you "know that public records show a great deal of money from Big Pharma pouring into Quackwatch", then you must have seen them - so perhaps you can pass them on? Do you still have copies of these public records? My email address appears at the bottom of each of my posts, so if you can't upload the documentary evidence to this forum please feel free to email it to me. I'm sure if you only have the paper copies, someone will let you use their scanner and you can send me a PDF.

I look forward to seeing your evidence.

Like Pyrrho said, it's better not to risk sidetracking into the libel pit.

I withdraw my comments. Claim victory all you like.

I'm finished with this thread.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sat May 15, 2010 5:13 pm

landrew wrote: Like Pyrrho said, it's better not to risk sidetracking into the libel pit.

I withdraw my comments. Claim victory all you like.

So, just to be clear - are there no public records that I can access that support your earlier statements?

landrew wrote: I'm finished with this thread.

We'll see. I can't tell you the number of times that I've seen that comment before on internet forums and, almost invariably, I've seen the person return. Personally, I hope you do come back - I'm enjoying this thread. Do please remember to back up assertions with evidence, though.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat May 15, 2010 5:14 pm

landrew wrote:I'd just to make my last word on this subject, that I'm skeptical of the pure motives being expounded by Quackwatch.
landrew wrote:I do know that public records show a great deal of money from Big Pharma pouring into Quackwatch before they stopped disclosing that information. ...
landrew wrote:I'm finished with this thread.
Again?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Sat May 15, 2010 6:20 pm

The chiropractic subluxation (1895–12 May 2010) R.I.P.


Obituary: The death of the subluxation
http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/05/obitua ... bluxation/

UK General Chiropractic Council acknowledge that terms such as joint misalignment or dysfunction have the same meaning as subluxation. Simply using different terminology is not a get out clause:
http://skepticbarista.wordpress.com/201 ... ch-part-2/

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Skeptagenarian » Mon May 17, 2010 4:20 pm

I have many discs in my spine which become herniated (very painful) plus degenerative disc disease (daily aches and pains). I had to eventually be referred up to Emory Spine Center in Atlanta for treatment.

"Cracking" the bones in my spine alleviates the pain associated with herniated discs. I can't crack my back and neck on my own so I pay someone to do it. As far as any other claims the chiropractor makes about his services, I've made it pretty clear that I'm there for treatment when needed, not including chiropractic as part of a scheduled routine or lifestyle. He's fine with that.

What I found odd was that at Emory, they staff acupuncturists and chirpractors. Even though it may be "woo" they seem to be under the impression that whatever alleviates pain has to be beneficial, even if it simply amounts to placebo. It probably also helps in reducing the number of narcotic prescriptions being issued.

I have no other opinion of chiropractic other than it helps me for my particular set of problems. If I could crack my back and neck on my own, however, I would have no need to go.


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