What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:29 am

Massive medical fraud exposed: pharmaceutical company paid doctors to prescribe drugs and run sham clinical trials
http://www.naturalnews.com/001298_drugs ... anies.html

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:36 am

42% of people believed they had personally experienced a medical mistake (NPSF survey)
44,000 to 98,000 deaths annually from medical errors (Institute of Medicine)
225,000 deaths annually from medical errors including 106,000 deaths due to "nonerror adverse events of medications" (Starfield)
180,000 deaths annually from medication errors and adverse reactions (Holland)
20,000 annually to 88,000 deaths annually from nosocomial infections
2.9 to 3.7 percent of hospitalizations leading to adverse medication reactions
7,391 deaths resulted from medication errors (Institute of Medicine)
2.4 to 3.6 percent of hospital admissions were due to (prescription) medication events (Australian study)


food for thought - where is the outrage and venom against the medical profession for directly causing the deaths of these people? no controversy here as to the cause

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/mistakes/common.htm

in case you are having trouble with the numbers more people are dying from medical errors than chiropractic "strokes" and yet you people get so worked up over this

wouldn't addressing the BIG problem save more lives ?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:19 am

the honorable opposition wrote:why bother repeating myself to a delusional audiance?

Quackwatch is run by s. barrett who is on a vendetta against chiropractic and has been dicredited in court on numerous occasions - therefore i believe that he writes with an agenda and just like in court - his conclusions are suspect
Then it should be trivial for you to write a critique of a major article by Dr. Barrett.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:54 am

waste of time he has been disparaged enough don't u think

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:57 am

waste of time he has been disparaged enough don't u think


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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:06 am

http://en.allexperts.com/e/s/st/stephen ... ontroversy and litigation

[[Copyrighted content removed by Pyrrho]]

*
like i said why should i do it, it's been done rather well already - the only people who think barrett is credible apparently live here
Last edited by Pyrrho on Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Copyrighted content removed.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:24 am

the honorable opposition wrote:... * like i said why should i do it, it's been done rather well already - the only people who think barrett is credible apparently live here
Why am I not surprised that you cannot distinguish personal attacks from scientific critique?

We get it- you think Dr. Barrett is a bad man, a real meanie.

We also get that neither you nor any of your co-workers can show how his scientific criticisms of your methods are wrong (because he is right).

Maybe you should try explaining what it is chiros can do, that doctors cannot, for the Olympics. After all, you brought up that topic so you should be responsible for it.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:51 am

what you don't get is that because of his bias his work is going to be tainted - intentionally or unintentionally

he may not be a bad man - who cares if he is. he is a sham. his website is a sham and anyone "scientist" who cannot see that is blind

JJm automatically dismisses any research done by a chiropractor or printed in a peer reviewed chiropractic journal out of hand because it was done by a chiropractor - therefore it is bad

why should barrett get any better treatment when he is obviously a wack job

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:28 am

i guess barrett is right because jjm says he is - he is THE authority on the subject

birds of a feather.......

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:26 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:what you don't get is that because of his bias his work is going to be tainted - intentionally or unintentionally
This reminds me of the Uncle Remus story where the character won't admit to being illiterate. When asked to read something, he proclaims "I can write readin'; but I can't read writin'". I get that you think his work must be tainted, I also get that you cannot demonstrate it (for the good reason that Barrett is right). Your "education" in chiro is not predicated on critical thinking.


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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Pyrrho » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:29 am

Yet again, "the honorable opposition" has ignored forum rules regarding the posting of copyrighted content, and I have locked his account indefinitely. The content will be removed; the link will remain.

When such content is available elsewhere on the web, you may post a very brief portion and a link to where the rest exists online. This forum is not intended for the republishing of material that exists elsewhere on the web. I treat all such content as copyrighted content and will continue to take actions in that regard as necessary.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:59 am

JJM wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:what you don't get is that because of his bias his work is going to be tainted - intentionally or unintentionally
This reminds me of the Uncle Remus story where the character won't admit to being illiterate. When asked to read something, he proclaims "I can write readin'; but I can't read writin'". I get that you think his work must be tainted, I also get that you cannot demonstrate it (for the good reason that Barrett is right). Your "education" in chiro is not predicated on critical thinking.

If you think Barrett is right, you'd better read ho's quackbusters link.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:05 pm

landrew wrote:If you think Barrett is right, you'd better read ho's quackbusters link.
If you think Barrett is wrong- you can choose an article at quackwatch and show how it is substantially wrong. So, you have another challenge to walk away from.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:38 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:If you think Barrett is right, you'd better read ho's quackbusters link.
If you think Barrett is wrong- you can choose an article at quackwatch and show how it is substantially wrong. So, you have another challenge to walk away from.

I'm not prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is a member of such a dubious organization, as you instruct. I think you've already walked away from your obligation to verify the validity of your sources.

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/WisconsinW ... ese_so.htm
http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.or ... p2001b.htm
http://www.worldwidehealthcenter.net/articles-269.html
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:39 pm

landrew wrote:I'm not prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is a member of such a dubious organization, as you instruct. I think you've already walked away from your obligation to verify the validity of your sources. ...
I guess it isn't fair to ask you to comment on technical matters. Since you replied with propaganda, science is clearly not your forte. I have definitely verified quackwatch, it is the best source of information on Alt Med on the internet. Unfortunately, the articles tend to be a bit technical for people without a science educaton.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:43 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:I'm not prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is a member of such a dubious organization, as you instruct. I think you've already walked away from your obligation to verify the validity of your sources. ...
I guess it isn't fair to ask you to comment on technical matters. Since you replied with propaganda, science is clearly not your forte. I have definitely verified quackwatch, it is the best source of information on Alt Med on the internet. Unfortunately, the articles tend to be a bit technical for people without a science educaton.

I sense you backing away from a feared result. Any guesses why there's no "Quackwatch" article on Wikipedia? Here's a hint: they don't want the introspection.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby ibh111142 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:51 pm

Am I the same? Have I just been lucky with the odd chiropractor that does not claim to cure heaven and earth. The last MD I went to diagnosed spurs on my neck vertebrae, said it was incurable, left me in crippling pain with advic to take an over the counter pain killer. It didn't work. But four or five sessions at the chiro did. Is it that the way we assess their capability is faulty? Are the standards that are set correct? Lets face it, if it works why knock it? In engineering we have a saying that if it looks right it probably is. Same here if it works right it probably is right.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:16 pm

The whole thing is stupidly ridiculous when you think about it.

People have been going to chiropractors for ages, and it's just market economics that they wouldn't still be around if they weren't helping people.

People are injured under both medical doctors and chiropractors, and legal eagles do a fine job of going after malpractice wherever they see it. Fraud laws are adequate to prosecute someone who is trying to make a quick buck at a patient's expense.

If a small portion of the energy being devoted to promote giving someone the right to smoke their brains out, or not pay their taxes were diverted to allowing someone the freedom of choice for seeing a chiropractor instead of a medical doctor, the whole issue would be mostly moot. It amazes me why someone thinks they have something to gain by telling people what to do with their money and their bodies.

The fact that Big Pharma doesn't like anyone messing with their turf, suggesting that patented drugs aren't the answer to every problem, is no reason for everyone to jump on the anti-chiropractic bandwagon. The fact that Quackwatch is a creature of that lobby only muddies the waters much more than necessary.

Since when should we make our decisions based on how much money someone has spent to change your mind?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:35 pm

ibh111142 wrote:... Have I just been lucky with the odd chiropractor that does not claim to cure heaven and earth. The last MD I went to diagnosed spurs on my neck vertebrae, said it was incurable, left me in crippling pain with advic to take an over the counter pain killer. It didn't work. But four or five sessions at the chiro did. Is it that the way we assess their capability is faulty? Are the standards that are set correct? Lets face it, if it works why knock it? In engineering we have a saying that if it looks right it probably is. Same here if it works right it probably is right.
We have another saying- anecdotes are not data. Anecdotes (testimonials) such as yours may be a reason to investigate something; but they do not carry much weight as evidence.

In the particular story you tell, one cannot say what would have happened if you had gone to a chiro, a masseur, a reiki master, or nobody at all.

Have you been lucky in your selection of chiro? Probably. In 2004 a major survey of chiros, by chiros, found that 90% believe in the fictional chiro subluxation and 70% think it is involved with visceral diseases. (“How chiropractors think and practice” William P. McDonald et al “Seminars in Integrative Medicine” 2004 V.2 #3 92-98). Indeed, 20% think that all illness is due spinal misalignment.


You can read a lot about chiro at www.quackwatch.org and its sub-site www.chirobase.org Also, go to http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ and find chiro among the categories on the right side of the page.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:15 pm

landrew wrote:People have been going to chiropractors for ages, and it's just market economics that they wouldn't still be around if they weren't helping people.

People went to quacks who bled them dry for centuries (actually, probably thousands of years). If bloodletting wasn't helping these people, then why didn't market economics lead to the end of bloodletting as a panacea? I think it is at least partly because people are lousy are figuring out what works and what doesn't.

We are all irrational (and I'm including skeptics in this blanket assertion) at times - and in the area of medicine there is plenty of opportunity for the taking of irrational decisions and the mistaking of coincidence or correlation with causation.

Imagine 300 people receiving bloodletting or chiropractic for asthma. 100 of them improve, 100 of them worsen, and 100 of them get no better and no worse. Another group of 300 receive no treatment and show similar results. The treatment is clearly having no effect, but the 100 people who coincidentally improve following treatment erroneously (but understandably) conclude that it worked.

In reality, people are more likely to try a treatment when their symptoms are at their worst. Whatever they try (or even if they try nothing), the natural course of a self-limiting (symptoms worsening, then improving - before disappearing altogether) or fluctuating (symptoms going up, down, up, down, etc...) condition will likely mean their symptoms improve following the treatment.

Say I have a cold and take a homeopathic remedy around the third or fourth day when I feel particularly rough, my symptoms ease over the next day or two and have almost completely disappeared by the seventh day. This is the natural course of a cold, and my symptoms would have eased whether I took the remedy or not - but the recovery following treatment looks like it is connected to the treatment.

I think that your assertion is incorrect and should probably read: People have been going to chiropractors for ages, and it's just market economics that they wouldn't still be around if people didn't think they were helping. People think that horseshoes are lucky and hang them on their doors - it doesn't mean it is true, but it means that people selling "lucky" nick-nacks such as horseshoes will always have a market for their products.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:18 pm

jdc wrote:
landrew wrote:People have been going to chiropractors for ages, and it's just market economics that they wouldn't still be around if they weren't helping people.

People went to quacks who bled them dry for centuries (actually, probably thousands of years). If bloodletting wasn't helping these people, then why didn't market economics lead to the end of bloodletting as a panacea? I think it is at least partly because people are lousy are figuring out what works and what doesn't.

We are all irrational (and I'm including skeptics in this blanket assertion) at times - and in the area of medicine there is plenty of opportunity for the taking of irrational decisions and the mistaking of coincidence or correlation with causation.

Imagine 300 people receiving bloodletting or chiropractic for asthma. 100 of them improve, 100 of them worsen, and 100 of them get no better and no worse. Another group of 300 receive no treatment and show similar results. The treatment is clearly having no effect, but the 100 people who coincidentally improve following treatment erroneously (but understandably) conclude that it worked.

In reality, people are more likely to try a treatment when their symptoms are at their worst. Whatever they try (or even if they try nothing), the natural course of a self-limiting (symptoms worsening, then improving - before disappearing altogether) or fluctuating (symptoms going up, down, up, down, etc...) condition will likely mean their symptoms improve following the treatment.

Say I have a cold and take a homeopathic remedy around the third or fourth day when I feel particularly rough, my symptoms ease over the next day or two and have almost completely disappeared by the seventh day. This is the natural course of a cold, and my symptoms would have eased whether I took the remedy or not - but the recovery following treatment looks like it is connected to the treatment.

I think that your assertion is incorrect and should probably read: People have been going to chiropractors for ages, and it's just market economics that they wouldn't still be around if people didn't think they were helping. People think that horseshoes are lucky and hang them on their doors - it doesn't mean it is true, but it means that people selling "lucky" nick-nacks such as horseshoes will always have a market for their products.

Well, put me down as someone who's skeptical of the opinion that all chiropractors all frauds who are trying to profit dishonestly.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:36 pm

landrew wrote:Well, put me down as someone who's skeptical of the opinion that all chiropractors all frauds who are trying to profit dishonestly.

I would be skeptical of that opinion too. I would actually be very surprised if all chiropractors were frauds or guilty of deliberate dishonesty. It seems more likely to me that chiropractors genuinely believe they are helping people (even though, in most cases, they are probably not). I would argue that not only are their patients irrational when it comes to chiropractic, but that the practitioners themselves are also irrational.

For an example - look at the evidence presented by the BCA ("the plethora"). Here, Martin Robbins looks at the plethora and concludes by noting that:
In short then, the 'plethora' of evidence provided by the BCA is pathetically inadequate. How much of this is due to ignorance, delusion or dishonesty is hard to say; my experiences dealing with other alternative medicine practitioners in the past suggests that they often genuinely believe that evidence supports their case even when it clearly doesn't, and that there's a element of misunderstanding about that.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:36 pm

Worth linking to this on Simon Singh and the British Chiropractic Association, I think: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/ap ... el-victory
Following today's ruling, Singh's comments are recognised by the court as a matter of opinion which did not imply that the BCA was being consciously dishonest.

The ruling, by England's two senior judges, the lord chief justice of England and the master of the rolls, together with Lord Justice Smedley, was scathing of the way the BCA began libel proceedings against Singh rather than taking up the Guardian's offer of a right to reply. It acknowledged that the action had a "chilling effect on public debate" which it described as a "surprising consequence of laws designed to protect reputation".

It said the BCA's actions had created the "unhappy impression" that "it is an endeavour by the BCA to silence one of its critics".


(Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, I did a quick search of the forum and couldn't see it being discussed.)
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:54 pm

jdc wrote:
landrew wrote:Well, put me down as someone who's skeptical of the opinion that all chiropractors all frauds who are trying to profit dishonestly.

I would be skeptical of that opinion too. I would actually be very surprised if all chiropractors were frauds or guilty of deliberate dishonesty. It seems more likely to me that chiropractors genuinely believe they are helping people (even though, in most cases, they are probably not). I would argue that not only are their patients irrational when it comes to chiropractic, but that the practitioners themselves are also irrational.

Even if what we say were only partly true, society would owe the honest chiropractors (and I believe the vast majority to be honest) the right to be protected from powerful financial interests with a vested interest in removing them from society for the purposes of forming a virtual monopoly in health care.

I think there is ample evidence that such forces are at work.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:21 pm

landrew wrote:
jdc wrote:
landrew wrote:Well, put me down as someone who's skeptical of the opinion that all chiropractors all frauds who are trying to profit dishonestly.

I would be skeptical of that opinion too. I would actually be very surprised if all chiropractors were frauds or guilty of deliberate dishonesty. It seems more likely to me that chiropractors genuinely believe they are helping people (even though, in most cases, they are probably not). I would argue that not only are their patients irrational when it comes to chiropractic, but that the practitioners themselves are also irrational.

Even if what we say were only partly true, society would owe the honest chiropractors (and I believe the vast majority to be honest) the right to be protected from powerful financial interests with a vested interest in removing them from society for the purposes of forming a virtual monopoly in health care.

I think there is ample evidence that such forces are at work.

Ah, so it's a conspiracy. I see. Given that you claim there is "ample evidence" that such forces are at work, I expect that you will be able to share some of this evidence with us. Let's see your evidence then...
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:34 pm

jdc wrote:Ah, so it's a conspiracy. I see. Given that you claim there is "ample evidence" that such forces are at work, I expect that you will be able to share some of this evidence with us. Let's see your evidence then...

If you care to scroll back a bit, I posted ample evidence to be at least skeptical of the fact that some anti-chiropractic groups are purely directed by a desire to protect the public interest.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:30 pm

landrew wrote:Even if what we say were only partly true, society would owe the honest chiropractors (and I believe the vast majority to be honest) the right to be protected from powerful financial interests with a vested interest in removing them from society for the purposes of forming a virtual monopoly in health care.

I think there is ample evidence that such forces are at work.
That is shocking! Can you tell us the evidence or would "they" hunt you down? In other words, I bet you are going to back away from that claim.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:55 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:Even if what we say were only partly true, society would owe the honest chiropractors (and I believe the vast majority to be honest) the right to be protected from powerful financial interests with a vested interest in removing them from society for the purposes of forming a virtual monopoly in health care.

I think there is ample evidence that such forces are at work.
That is shocking! Can you tell us the evidence or would "they" hunt you down? In other words, I bet you are going to back away from that claim.

Face it, you ran away from this discussion when it became clear that Quackbusters is a paid lobby instrument for big business. Now that you sneaking back, don't try to assert that I am making any claims other than being skeptical the original assertion that "all chiropractors are quacks."

Your tactics of putting all burden of proof on the other side to defend nonexistent claims which are just anything contrary to what you say, are wearing very thin in here.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:18 pm

landrew wrote:I think there is ample evidence that such forces are at work.
... Can you tell us the evidence or would "they" hunt you down? In other words, I bet you are going to back away from that claim.[/quote]
Face it, you ran away from this discussion when it became clear that Quackbusters is a paid lobby instrument for big business.[/quote]You never offered any convincing information to show that quackwatch is a paid lobby. If it were, that still wouldn't mean that their information is inaccurate, and no True SkepticTM would claim otherwise.

The "information" you linked consists of two commentaries by crackpot Tim Bolen (and another anonymous one). Bolen lies- for example, note how he refers to Dr. Barrett (variously) as 'delicensed' and 'unlicensed' which is something a True SkepticTM might have tried to verify. According to the medical board, Barrett's license status is "active-retired." http://www.licensepa.state.pa.us/Detail ... id=528406&

landrew wrote:Now that you sneaking back, don't try to assert that I am making any claims other than being skeptical the original assertion that "all chiropractors are quacks."
A quack is a person who claims knowledge of health care but lacks such knowledge. That describes chiros. Quacks need not be frauds.

landrew wrote:Your tactics of putting all burden of proof on the other side to defend nonexistent claims which are just anything contrary to what you say, are wearing very thin in here.
I made a claim that the information at quackwatch is essentially correct. The onus is on you to show me that I am wrong, a PR hack posting lies about Barrett doesn't settle the technical question.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:49 pm

I'm tired of these circular arguments with you. Anyone who disagrees with your verdicts, you assume is making some extraordinary claim. Your incessant demands for "how many sides in a circle" type of questioning is pointless and tiring.

I've made my points more than enough times in this thread, and more repetition won't make a bit of a difference to you, so all I can suggest is that you go back and read it for once with comprehension.

If you still think I am defending fraudulent claims after that, I'll have to cut you loose.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:24 pm

clear that Quackbusters is a paid lobby instrument for big business

Just to pick up on this point - is Quackbusters an actual organisation or is it a term used to describe people who criticise alternative medicine?

If it is the former, I have to say I have yet to find them. Searching for Quackbusters on Google brings up links to (a) alt med advocates dismissing sceptics as being part of some conspiracy and (b) a Warner Brothers film.

If it is the latter (i.e., a term used to describe people who criticise alternative medicine), then I guess I would qualify as a Quackbuster. I, though, am not paid by big business - or indeed paid by anybody - to criticise alternative medicine.

I've written plenty of articles criticising chiropractors, homeopaths, and food supplement salesmen. My most recent post detailed my chiropractic activism and the Singh-BCA case.

I've also written about the practices of Big Pharma. For example: here (a post about Big Pharma being a marketing-driven industry), here (discussion of the waste of resources re "me-too drugs"), and here (where I quoted Ben Goldacre describing the “dodgy behaviour”, the “$600 billion pharma industry”, and the publication bias made clear by a paper in the New England Journal of Medicine).

The people I know of who could be described as "Quackbusters" for their writings on alternative medicine are most emphatically not part of a paid lobby instrument for big business. Can you provide examples of Quackbusters who are?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:24 pm

I'm not here to defend any claims, and I'm tired of constantly being asked to do so. I expressed doubt in some of the many assertions being made in this thread. I have posted all my rationale and evidence sufficient to my challenges, which I only claim casts doubt on those assertions, nothing more. Anyone can scroll back to refer to what I've already said.

I'm not impressed by the tactic that tries to assert it's position by apparently sewing up all opposition by placing all burden of the doubt on the other side to "prove me wrong." There are no default assertions in science, as there may be in a court of law.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:12 pm

landrew wrote:I'm not here to defend any claims, and I'm tired of constantly being asked to do so.
A True skepticTM stands proudly ready to do so.

landrew wrote:I expressed doubt in some of the many assertions being made in this thread. I have posted all my rationale and evidence sufficient to my challenges, which I only claim casts doubt on those assertions, nothing more. Anyone can scroll back to refer to what I've already said.
But having done so, I find that no True ScientistTM would find your evidence persuasive. As a True ScientistTM you should know that a PR screed from an adversary in litigation is suspect; moreover, you should know that an analysis of the scientific merit of said literature is called-for.

landrew wrote:I'm not impressed by the tactic that tries to assert it's position by apparently sewing up all opposition by placing all burden of the doubt on the other side to "prove me wrong."
A True ScientistTM knows that a naked claim such as "dowsing works" (which you have made) demands supporting evidence- which you could not supply and so you recanted to some (uncertain) extent. However, a claim that "Dowsing works, and here is the evidence," requires a response to the evidence, supplied. The evidence you supplied (anecdote) does not impress a True ScientistTM.

landrew wrote:There are no default assertions in science, as there may be in a court of law.
What are "default assertions" and where is the support that they are not found in science?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:56 pm

landrew wrote:I'm not here to defend any claims, and I'm tired of constantly being asked to do so. I expressed doubt in some of the many assertions being made in this thread. I have posted all my rationale and evidence sufficient to my challenges, which I only claim casts doubt on those assertions, nothing more. Anyone can scroll back to refer to what I've already said.

I'm not impressed by the tactic that tries to assert it's position by apparently sewing up all opposition by placing all burden of the doubt on the other side to "prove me wrong." There are no default assertions in science, as there may be in a court of law.

One minor point to make and then I'm off...

Landrew, jdc is rather new here, with only a few dozen posts. He's asked you specifically for evidence you claim to have provided previously. Seems only fair that you point him in the right direction since he did ask nicely. If you are as confident of your position I would think you'd be anxious to show that and perhaps bring someone else on board. Just a thought...
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:45 pm

OK, I think this post might contain links to the evidence that's already been posted:
landrew wrote:
JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:If you think Barrett is right, you'd better read ho's quackbusters link.
If you think Barrett is wrong- you can choose an article at quackwatch and show how it is substantially wrong. So, you have another challenge to walk away from.

I'm not prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is a member of such a dubious organization, as you instruct. I think you've already walked away from your obligation to verify the validity of your sources.

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/WisconsinW ... ese_so.htm
http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.or ... p2001b.htm
http://www.worldwidehealthcenter.net/articles-269.html

Right: http://www.quackpotwatch.org/WisconsinW ... ese_so.htm tells us who the Quackbusters are. NCAHF & Barrett. Let's see: http://www.ncahf.org/about/history.html says:
Several writers have falsely claimed that NCAHF was started by the American Medical Association (AMA) and is financially supported by the drug industry. [...] Other than the common bond among those who believe that medical care should be based on science, NCAHF has no organizational ties to either organized medicine or the pharmaceutical industry. Nor has it ever received financial support from them. In fact, NCAHF is openly critical of the failure of organized medicine to take a more proactive consumer protection role and believes that medical discipline needs strengthening. NCAHF is also very critical of drug companies that market supplements, homeopathic products, and herbal products that are worthless, questionable, and/or unsafe. When pharmaceutical companies have marketed these products deceptively, NCAHF has exposed such activities and incurring the wrath of vitamin trade groups.


The other links don't seem to refer to any new suspects, so I assume that the Quackbusters are Barrett and the NCAHF (who we've already looked at).

The allegation that NCAHF and/or Barrett are "a paid lobby instrument for big business" seems to be baseless - or can you provide evidence that one or both of the named suspects are as you describe?

It is perhaps also pointing out that NCAHF and Barrett are responsible for only a small proportion of the worldwide condemnation of the dubious claims made by some chiropractors. A Google search of the badscienceblogs site finds 67 results. There are 33 posts on my blog tagged "chiropractic". I reckon Zeno has 57 posts on chiropractic: http://www.zenosblog.com/tag/chiropractic/page/6/ Try googling BCA +plethora for more blogs dismantling chiropractic claims. All those critics, and yet the only ones smeared by unfounded allegations of being "a paid lobby instrument for big business" are Barrett and NCAHF. I say "smeared", because that's what I think has happened - the making of baseless allegations against a group and an individual. Unless you can provide evidence, of course - in which case, I am all ears.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:53 pm

Be careful of using consensus as proof. Opinions can be bought and sold for a price, but I think if you wanted to put the legitimacy of Chiropractic up to a public vote it would soundly win.

The laws of malpractice and fraud are well defined, and until the entire discipline of Chiropractic falls under those definitions, it's here to stay, whether Big Pharma wants it or not.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:58 pm

landrew wrote:Be careful of using consensus as proof. Opinions can be bought and sold for a price, but I think if you wanted to put the legitimacy of Chiropractic up to a public vote it would soundly win.

The laws of malpractice and fraud are well defined, and until the entire discipline of Chiropractic falls under those definitions, it's here to stay, whether Big Pharma wants it or not.

You've missed my point. It's over here ------------------->
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:21 pm

jdc wrote:
landrew wrote:Be careful of using consensus as proof. Opinions can be bought and sold for a price, but I think if you wanted to put the legitimacy of Chiropractic up to a public vote it would soundly win.

The laws of malpractice and fraud are well defined, and until the entire discipline of Chiropractic falls under those definitions, it's here to stay, whether Big Pharma wants it or not.

You've missed my point. It's over here ------------------->

The only points I ever tried to make are summed up above.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.


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