What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
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Graumagier
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Graumagier » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:56 pm

I don't see which point you are trying to make. If it should be the "there's a committee, so it's science"-point: That's not a point.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:20 pm

my point is that there is a selection process controlled by the usoc. you cannot just be a part of the olympic medical staff because you want to be

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Graumagier » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:38 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:my point is that there is a selection process controlled by the usoc.

As I stated above: That's not a point. You'd have to proof that the USOC's selection of methods relies strictly on scientific data, which you can't, because there is no scientific data supporting the claims made by chiropractors. And so the USOC's choice does not validate the claims made by chiropractors one bit.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:39 am

what i was saying is that the usoc see's chiropractors as adding something unique and valuable to the medical team - the usoc medical committee selects doctors with a high level of experience and training to bring the best doctors to the olympics so the team has the best chance at winning - they are selecting the best chiropractors as a value added service to make our team more competitive than if chiropractors were not available to the athletes

I do not think that the usoc and the medical committee are full of idiots - so maybe they see something of value that you guys don't

just a thought to consider - maybe you're wrong

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:46 am

the honorable opposition wrote:what i was saying is that the usoc see's chiropractors as adding something unique and valuable to the medical team ...[snipped]

Oh, fer gawd's sake, they could round up the local drug dealers and prostitutes and make the same claim. Nancy Reagen relied heavily on astrologers because she found them invaluable and comforting. Does that somehow validate astrology in your mind?

Seriously dude, what kind of retort is this? :?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:00 am

In today's press:
Court finds chiropractic negligence in manipulation

A new court ruling has again called into question a widely used but controversial chiropractic treatment, concluding that a Newfoundland practitioner made a patient deaf in one ear and caused other debilitating injuries by performing a neck manipulation on him.

More...
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada ... id=2465899


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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:50 am

brauneyz wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:what i was saying is that the usoc see's chiropractors as adding something unique and valuable to the medical team ...[snipped]
... Seriously dude, what kind of retort is this? :?
It's called grasping at straws. He cannot tell us what that "unique and valuable" contribution might be.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:04 pm

JJM wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:what i was saying is that the usoc see's chiropractors as adding something unique and valuable to the medical team ...[snipped]
... Seriously dude, what kind of retort is this? :?
It's called grasping at straws. He cannot tell us what that "unique and valuable" contribution might be.

Nearly three years this thread has been running and T.H.O. has yet to provide proof of the value of his profession. We're entering ultra epic fail zone.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:48 am

the problem is that nothing qualifies as proof in your eyes - everything falls short for some reason - however anything to the contrary - however weak is lauded

not very scientific to have the facts fit your predetermined result

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:01 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:the problem is that nothing qualifies as proof in your eyes - everything falls short for some reason - however anything to the contrary - however weak is lauded

not very scientific to have the facts fit your predetermined result

Weak, very weak. You are trying to prove that cow pie is a type of pizza. When your audience is crows, that might work.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:59 pm

brauneyz wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:what i was saying is that the usoc see's chiropractors as adding something unique and valuable to the medical team ...[snipped]

Oh, fer gawd's sake, they could round up the local drug dealers and prostitutes and make the same claim. Nancy Reagen relied heavily on astrologers because she found them invaluable and comforting. Does that somehow validate astrology in your mind?

Seriously dude, what kind of retort is this? :?

That's not a great analogy. I think what's missing is the measure of what serves the greater good. We allow anyone to pilot dangerous 3-ton wheeled, metal missiles full of explosive fuel through populated areas all the time, and thousands of people die on the roads and highways every year as a result, but no one bans automobiles. Because they are acknowledged to serve a greater good. The same argument is much weaker for fireworks, but they are still legal in many places.

This society has banned more things than the Soviet Union ever did, but to place chiropractic in the same category of hazardous things that should be banned is a bit misguided in my opinion.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:55 pm

landrew wrote:
This society has banned more things than the Soviet Union ever did, but to place chiropractic in the same category of hazardous things that should be banned is a bit misguided in my opinion.

I said nothing of the sort. In fact, a few posts back I specifically said I would not advocate the banning of chiros. (Remember, I'm more of the libertarian anything-goes type when it comes to legalizing things.)

As for my lame analogy, I'll let it stand. There are athletes who would argue that a night of coke snorted off the ass of a hooker brings many unique and valuable assets to the impending game. (See Taylor, Lawrence).

"I want it. I believe in it. I can afford it." Seems like pretty similar claims to me.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:02 pm

landrew wrote:This society has banned more things than the Soviet Union ever did, but to place chiropractic in the same category of hazardous things that should be banned is a bit misguided in my opinion.

I'd love to see both lists you're working from.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:08 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:This society has banned more things than the Soviet Union ever did, but to place chiropractic in the same category of hazardous things that should be banned is a bit misguided in my opinion.

I'd love to see both lists you're working from.

I'm also working on a list of your positive contributions to this forum, as well as a list of your inane chatter and cheap shots. Guess which one is longer?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:58 pm

landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:This society has banned more things than the Soviet Union ever did, but to place chiropractic in the same category of hazardous things that should be banned is a bit misguided in my opinion.

I'd love to see both lists you're working from.

I'm also working on a list of your positive contributions to this forum, as well as a list of your inane chatter and cheap shots. Guess which one is longer?

Bravo, landew, you live down to my expectations.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:41 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:This society has banned more things than the Soviet Union ever did, but to place chiropractic in the same category of hazardous things that should be banned is a bit misguided in my opinion.

I'd love to see both lists you're working from.

I'm also working on a list of your positive contributions to this forum, as well as a list of your inane chatter and cheap shots. Guess which one is longer?

Bravo, landew, you live down to my expectations.

Glad to be of service.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:44 pm

landrew wrote:... but to place chiropractic in the same category of hazardous things that should be banned is a bit misguided in my opinion.
Your opinion is uninformed. Go to http://www.quackwatch.org and its subsidiary http://www.chirobase.org and educate yourself.
brauneyz wrote:I said nothing of the sort. In fact, a few posts back I specifically said I would not advocate the banning of chiros. (Remember, I'm more of the libertarian anything-goes type when it comes to legalizing things.) ...
How do you feel about laws forbidding practicing medicine without a medical license; which is what chiros (by their chiro licenses) are allowed to do? Sure, THO wants us to think (as they all do) that he is not one of those- the flagrant cheats in his trade (and we cannot know); but the bottom line is most chiros provide bogus services at significant cost.

We must deal with the "bottom line" that most chiro customers are likely to encounter: charlatans. When your granny pays in advance for $5,000 worth of "adjustments" (discounted from $7,500 paying at each visit) do you say "Granny, you are a fool and deserved to be fleeced"?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:05 pm

educate yourself at quackwatch and chirobase?

that is like educating yourself on race relations by going to the KKK website

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:14 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:educate yourself at quackwatch and chirobase?

that is like educating yourself on race relations by going to the KKK website

What are you afraid of there? The facts?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:31 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:educate yourself at quackwatch and chirobase? ...
As I recall, in one of your previous (sock puppet) incarnations you promised to critique an article at quackwatch, then you became "too busy." Do you have the time to tell us what is (non-trivially) wrong with one of the articles, now? You seem to have plenty of leisure time at the moment.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:14 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:give me a reason (besides BS) why the olympic medical group would want a chiropractor ? they obviously think that they are of benefit. why would that be??

Only because one or more of the athletes wanted one. If nobody wanted one, the olympic medical group would not assign one -- unless the chiropractor him- or herself has some sort of pull with the committee and wanted to go to watch the games for free with nothing else to do.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:28 pm

oh brother, i only wish i could be as smart and ed-u-ma-kated as youse guys.

thank you no

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:36 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:oh brother, i only wish i could be as smart and ed-u-ma-kated as youse guys.

thank you no

You have only yourself, and your profit-motivated paradigm, to blame for that lack of education.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:17 pm

too bad you don't even know me, my education, my experience, or my motives

you assume too much

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:35 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:too bad you don't even know me, my education, my experience, or my motives

you assume too much

You make yourself obvious too much.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:15 am

you make yourself obvious too much
??

i don't know if i can really respond to that LOL!

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:18 am

As I recall, in one of your previous (sock puppet) incarnations you promised to critique an article at quackwatch, then you became "too busy." Do you have the time to tell us what is (non-trivially) wrong with one of the articles, now? You seem to have plenty of leisure time at the moment.JJM
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actually no - step mom recovering from open heart -

sorry to dissappoint - i think quackwatch is a self serving website for barrett to promote himself and his ideas - nothing more

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:12 pm

...what is (non-trivially) wrong with one of the articles

the honorable opposition wrote:sorry to dissappoint - i think quackwatch is a self serving website for barrett to promote himself and his ideas - nothing more

I don't think people are as interested in Barrett's motivation for writing the articles on Quackwatch so much as they are interested in the quality of the articles and whether you can point out any significant flaws.

Whether Barrett's interested in self-promotion or in protecting the public from quackery might be of interest to some, but the question was regarding the quality of the articles themselves - not Barrett's motivation in writing them.



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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:14 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:
you make yourself obvious too much
??

i don't know if i can really respond to that LOL!

You can't, and you know it.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:54 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:
As I recall, in one of your previous (sock puppet) incarnations you promised to critique an article at quackwatch, then you became "too busy." Do you have the time to tell us what is (non-trivially) wrong with one of the articles, now? You seem to have plenty of leisure time at the moment.JJM
...


actually no - step mom recovering from open heart -

sorry to dissappoint - i think quackwatch is a self serving website for barrett to promote himself and his ideas - nothing more
Best wishes for your stepmom.

What you think about quackwatch is meaningless. You need to show facts. Maybe when you return, you can either show what, specifically, is wrong at quackwatch or what, specifically, you provide that a real, health care professional cannot provide.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:51 pm

For those interested, the UK General Chiropractic Council recently commissioned an ‘independent’ review of the effectiveness of chiropractic. It has finally been published and you can read about it here:
http://www.zenosblog.com/2010/02/the-gccs-plethora/

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:06 pm

Thanks Blue, I looked at the documents:

The first thing I noticed was the standard, chiro "bait and switch" ploy. That is probably why the report is titled "Effectiveness of manual therapies" [italics added] rather than referring to "chiro therapies." You might think this is an evaluation of chiro practices; but it includes manipulation performed by PTs, masseurs, and reflexologists (and, probably, doctors).

The problem is that chiros usually claim superiority and different techniques from those employed by PTs and doctors. Moreover, it illustrates the chiro notion that they can substitute for PTs; for which they lack proper training. When chiros are not detecting and adjusting "subluxations" they are trying to emulate other fields. Note that they often re-name and re-define "subluxation"; but it is all the same.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:42 am

It's also interesting to note that the review's lead author, Gert Bronfort, serves on NCCAM's National Advisory Council for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NACCAM): http://nccam.nih.gov/about/naccam/roster.htm

For those not up to speed with NCCAM, this is what the Skeptics Dictionary has this to say about it:
“We've been waiting for 16 years for the NIH to announce some major breakthrough in health care that has emerged from NCCAM. Unfortunately, most of the "alternative" research is driven by faith, hope, and ideology rather than science. As Dr. Wallace Sampson noted: the NCCAM "is the only entity in the NIH [among some 27 institutes and centers] devoted to an ideological approach to health”….. $2.5 billion spent, no alternative cures found…”

http://www.skepdic.com/NCCAM.html



This is also interesting:
“Dr. Bronfort was recently commissioned by the British General Chiropractic Council to report on the evidence for chiropractic care. The Council and the British Chiropractic Association (BCA) has come under intense public scrutiny and pending litigation due to a large number of false-advertising claims filed against field practitioners. The purpose of the report was to help sort out what can and cannot be claimed about the effectiveness of chiropractic care, particularly manual therapies. The report is expected to be published in a peer-review journal in late 2009 or early 2010.

Drs. Bronfort and Evans [a co-author of the GCC’s Evidence Report] were keynote speakers at the British Chiropractic Association Conference held in Wales, England, in October 2009.”

http://www.nwhealth.edu/nwtoday/research1109.html



Tell your friends.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:31 am

This is quite a revealing account of an undercover trip to a chiropractic clinic in the UK:
http://www.skepticat.org/2010/03/inside ... zards-den/

IMO, it further justifies the heavy criticism that's repeatedly levelled at the chiropractic industry.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Drew » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:22 am

It's scary, only very recently did I discover that Chiropractors are frauds without a shred of evidence. They receive a credible portrayal in the media.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:23 pm

oh brother, what a bunch of fear mongerers -

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby jdc » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:11 am

the honorable opposition wrote:oh brother, what a bunch of fear mongerers -

Welcome back THO. Now you're back, perhaps you would like to point out any significant flaws in the Quackwatch website? (Or tell us what, specifically, chiropractors provide that a conventional healthcare professional cannot provide.)
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:09 am

why bother repeating myself to a delusional audiance?

Quackwatch is run by s. barrett who is on a vendetta against chiropractic and has been dicredited in court on numerous occasions - therefore i believe that he writes with an agenda and just like in court - his conclusions are suspect

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:20 am

http://nhregister.com/articles/2010/03/ ... ractor.txt
" Well, I guess someone needs to clarify all this. The Board of Examiners actually used in their decision several studies that demonstrate a stroke was either unliklely or impossible following cervical manipulation when performed by any provider, not only a chiropractor. At the same time after 4 days of testimony the expert witnesses for the alleged victims groups produced absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever to support their position. None. Only anecdotal stories and personal opinions. How could the Board justify ruling any other way?

It would help if the author of this article either attended the hearings or even read the transcripts to actually understand the facts. Ms. Rexford herself, being a supposed impartial member of the Board appointed by the Governor, should understand that any and all Boards like this must rule on evidence and evidence alone. If as a country we wrote laws based solely on how much money someone has to spend on the media, or how compelling their story might be whether factual or not, we would be vulnerable to scam artists with a hidden agenda. "

" This is the rest of the story:

The four days of hearings were this year, not last year. A story whose backbone is to complain about process and outcome and denigrate once again those involved without getting current comment and viewpoint from them is unconscionable and sloppy.

With regard to Board member Jean Rexford, the real question should be was she paying attention or just doodling on a pad for four days? Her comments are disgraceful and her depictions of the 34 hours of evidentiary hearings and the Findings of Fact session are simplistic, and misleading . Her comments here and in the Courant questions the integrity of and shows contempt for her fellow board members not to mention the couple hundred thousand dollars in expense associated with these hearings. Rexford witnessed testimony and cross examination, and was free to ask her own questions, interrogate witnesses and to confront fellow board members directly.

Instead, she waits until the hearing is over and then goes on a jihad with evergreen victim Janet Levy to allege the Declaratory Ruling process is a sham and was cooked from the beginning. It may suit her purpose to feather her reputation as a patient rights advocate, but it does a disservice to the people of this state, to the profession, patients and to the board. It’s a cheap, ugly, classless shot strikingly similar to the public marketing campaign Levy knows so well. Both of them know the details of the hearing and the individual struggle board members confronted in arriving at a proper decision and none of it is reflected in their comments.

For the record, the board did not consider just one study. It discussed other studies and depended on experts. It did hear from the author of the Cassidy Study, the most comprehensive data to date spanning 10 years as part of a World Health Organization analysis on the issue which found no causation between neck manipulation and stroke. The board looked at current practices and much more. All of this testimony was cross examined by Attorneys Norm Pattis and Jay Malcynski who were given extraordinary latitude.

Further, the board also heard from advocates who provided no scientific evidence to support cause and effect, no studies, no legal rationale. No affadavits. No independent evidence. No related professional experience. They did tell stories though, tragic to be sure who felt chiropractors were to blame. They were well compensated as were a couple more from out of state.

There was also Senator Len Fasano, patron of Rexford’s appointment to the board and Janet Levy in championing her cause and crafting legislation in favor of her demands. He’s an attorney by trade, a member of the CT Bar with its oversight and grievance committee dominated 2:1 by lawyers, provided “what’s the harm” testimony.

Dr. Fellows representing the state medical board, a board dominated by doctors not lay people, also testified that the board supported the change but that board issued its opinion without taking any testimony, no expert witnesses, no cross examination and no studies. They took one vote and no, they never dictate informed consent on any procedure. Zero. Never. They leave it to the doctor patient relationship.

Meanwhile, Norm Pattis, better known for his criminal defense and civil rights work than this type of hearing, is gleefully contemplating going to court. The idea that he would advise otherwise is like asking your barber if you need a haircut, not that Pattis ever has. "
" @Witness- Janet Levy...the evergreen victim. My God that is great writing. I did watch the hearings online, lurking like a troll, and must admit your account was much more factual and complete than the reporter who wrote this story. I'm left wondering why no one has actually investigated these people and how they manipulate everything. They should be held accountable for this scam. Anyone who watched the hearings would have seen a ton of evidence that says a manipulation cannot cause a stroke and absolutely no evidence that says it can. I'm shocked to hear the board members even struggled with their decision after seeing the total mess the alleged victims expert witnesses were.

The only true conspiracy here surrounds how Ms. Rexford could be the one lone vote in favor of a ruling despite there being no evidence to support her opinion whatsoever. Who's the sham? She was impartial or was her vote predetermined? How can she justfiy her vote after sitting through those hearings? Now you say Ms. Rexford was appointed to the chiropractic board of examiners by Sen Fasano? The same Senator that is on a bizarre crusade to slap down the chiropractors. That is too classic!!! These people think they can do this and hide forever? How self-righteous of them.

I guess nothing these people say or do has much integrity behind it, yet no one confronts them. What's up with that? I'm left thinking there is bigger and more sinister agendalurking behind this type of thing. IMHO.

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:25 am

" The likelihood that a chiropractor will be made aware of an arterial dissection following cervical manipulation is approximately 1 in 8.06 million office visits, 1 in 5.85 million cervical manipulations, 1 in 430 chiropractic practice years and 1 in 48 chiropractic practice careers (Haldeman et al. Arterial dissections following cervical manipulation: the chiropractic experience. Canadian Medical Association Journal, October 2, 2001; 165 (7)).

Other possible risk factors for vertebral artery dissection include yoga, ceiling painting, nose blowing, judo, high blood pressure, oral contraceptive use, chronic headaches/migraines, and an existing defect of blood vessels (including association with other diseases such as fibromuscular dysplasia, cystic medial necrosis, and infection). Statistically, females are more prone to VAD (Lang et al. Vertebral Dissection Vertebral Artery, emedicine, 2010).

Research shows that suggest that stroke, particularly vertebrobasilar dissection, should be considered a rare, random and unpredictable complication of any neck movement, including cervical manipulation (Haldeman et al. Stroke, cerebral artery dissection, and cervical spine manipulation therapy. Journal of Neurology, Volume 249, Number 8 / July, 2002).

The take-home message:

Is vertebral artery dissection possible with chiropractic manipulation. Yes.

Is it probable? No.

Analogy:

Is death by plane crash possible? Yes.

Is it probable? No. "
I'm not convinced the manipulation caused your adverse reaction. I understand that you are convinced it did (if you are a real person and not part of VOCA's media game). In these cases where everyone has an opinion, or in this case an agenda, we must rely on the scientific literature which is pretty clear that it might actually be impossible for manipulation to cause a stroke. So where do we go from here? That's pretty simple...the current law already covers the issue so this smear campaign is not needed.

Someting for you and others to consider...Is it possible the forces behind this movement have for their own purposes taken advantage of a few vulnerable individuals who feel they are victims, propped them up, filled them with false and hateful information about chiropractors, manipulated them into becoming anti- chiropractic Zombies and are marching them against all forms of complimentary and alternative medicine? Just so you know, there is more evidence about that being the case than there is a chiro can actually cause a stroke. "
http://nhregister.com/articles/2010/03/19/news/a3-nechiropractor.txt


food for thought for the opinionated people here, the rest of the world may not share your views


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