What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:35 pm

landrew wrote:If the government outlawed everything that's potentially bad for you, imagine living in a rubber room.
Without your dope.

One day, I hope, you'll post something that makes sense. Until then, I've saving them for my comedy album.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:51 pm

I'm saying they shouldn't pretend to heal illnesses.


actually what they say is that they change the body to allow the body to heal itself

technically they do not heal any illnesses and do not pretend to

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:57 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:
I'm saying they shouldn't pretend to heal illnesses.


actually what they say is that they change the body to allow the body to heal itself

technically they do not heal any illnesses and do not pretend to

Bull pucky. You know they do, and I think the only reason you're defending them so much is you're one of them or related to one.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:02 pm

Big Pharma isn't the panacea of all knowledge about the human body. Anyone is free to disagree with anything they want, but unless the philosophies of chiropractic are wrong at their core, and can be proven to be dangerous overall to human well being, the government has no right denying such choice to all its citizens.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:06 pm

landrew wrote:Big Pharma isn't the panacea of all knowledge about the human body. Anyone is free to disagree with anything they want, but unless the philosophies of chiropractic are wrong at their core, and can be proven to be dangerous overall to human well being, the government has no right denying such choice to all its citizens.

And witch doctors if people want them. And human sacrifices to insure the crops come in. :roll:
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:43 pm

Bull pucky. You know they do, and I think the only reason you're defending them so much is you're one of them or related to one.


look it up

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:53 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:
Bull pucky. You know they do, and I think the only reason you're defending them so much is you're one of them or related to one.


look it up

Should I search by your family name?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:08 am

Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:Big Pharma isn't the panacea of all knowledge about the human body. Anyone is free to disagree with anything they want, but unless the philosophies of chiropractic are wrong at their core, and can be proven to be dangerous overall to human well being, the government has no right denying such choice to all its citizens.

And witch doctors if people want them. And human sacrifices to insure the crops come in. :roll:

That's ridiculous beyond your usual level.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:10 am

landrew wrote:Big Pharma isn't the panacea of all knowledge about the human body.
You use that word "panacea"- I don't think it means what you think it means. Ignoring that, I think you meant to offer a (childish) straw-man.

landrew wrote:Anyone is free to disagree with anything they want, but unless the philosophies of chiropractic are wrong at their core ...
Health care does not depend on "philosophy" my childish friend. The facts are that chiro is built on an illiterate philosophy which has been shown to be factually incorrect. Pretend to be a scholar and look at the first few pages of this thread and read the references embedded therein. Then, you can argue for the existence of subluxations and Innate Intelligence from a base of misunderstanding rather than ignorance.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:20 am

Gawdzilla wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:
I'm saying they shouldn't pretend to heal illnesses.


actually what they say is that they change the body to allow the body to heal itself

technically they do not heal any illnesses and do not pretend to

Bull pucky. You know they do, and I think the only reason you're defending them so much is you're one of them or related to one.
Actually, he is a chiro. When he started posting here, under another 'nym, he pretended to be an MD. But, it is true that "what [we] say is that [we] change the body to allow the body to heal itself" [fixed it for you]. They think it is a clever way of avoiding a concrete assertion. However, it is also a testable claim. "technically they do not heal any illnesses and do not pretend to" [italics added] "Technically" is a weasel word that they think absolves them of responsibility. No true chiro would make a claim of "healing;" but not healing takes hundreds of visits.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:22 am

landrew wrote:That's ridiculous beyond your usual level.
That doesn't sound like your usual, neutral self. Have you abandoned your fear and jumped to a front-loaded conclusion?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:25 pm

landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:Big Pharma isn't the panacea of all knowledge about the human body. Anyone is free to disagree with anything they want, but unless the philosophies of chiropractic are wrong at their core, and can be proven to be dangerous overall to human well being, the government has no right denying such choice to all its citizens.

And witch doctors if people want them. And human sacrifices to insure the crops come in. :roll:

That's ridiculous beyond your usual level.

So I'm finally catching up with you?

Chiro is simply voodoo in a cheap suit.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:26 pm

JJM wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:
I'm saying they shouldn't pretend to heal illnesses.


actually what they say is that they change the body to allow the body to heal itself

technically they do not heal any illnesses and do not pretend to

Bull pucky. You know they do, and I think the only reason you're defending them so much is you're one of them or related to one.
Actually, he is a chiro. When he started posting here, under another 'nym, he pretended to be an MD. But, it is true that "what [we] say is that [we] change the body to allow the body to heal itself" [fixed it for you]. They think it is a clever way of avoiding a concrete assertion. However, it is also a testable claim. "technically they do not heal any illnesses and do not pretend to" [italics added] "Technically" is a weasel word that they think absolves them of responsibility. No true chiro would make a claim of "healing;" but not healing takes hundreds of visits.

"The best way to lie is tell the truth, then shut up."
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:30 pm

However, it is also a testable claim. "technically they do not heal any illnesses and do not pretend to" [italics added] "Technically" is a weasel word that they think absolves them of responsibility.



so being factual is something that others use to weasel out of things? i thought you guys lived and died by facts

for the record then medicine technically does not heal you either, the ortho the reconstruced my shoulder did not heal me - just changed the situation in there allowing the body todo the actual healing

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:36 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:
However, it is also a testable claim. "technically they do not heal any illnesses and do not pretend to" [italics added] "Technically" is a weasel word that they think absolves them of responsibility.



so being factual is something that others use to weasel out of things? i thought you guys lived and died by facts

for the record then medicine technically does not heal you either, the ortho the reconstruced my shoulder did not heal me - just changed the situation in there allowing the body todo the actual healing

They healed my cancer, they healed my malaria, etc. A chiro would have given me a back massage and told me I was cured.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:44 pm

now you are ranting and not really making much sense

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:15 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:now you are ranting and not really making much sense

You wish, at least. You KNOW that chiropractic doesn't heal anything. "First hand" we might say. Doesn't that conflict you at all?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:47 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:
However, it is also a testable claim. "technically they do not heal any illnesses and do not pretend to" [italics added] "Technically" is a weasel word that they think absolves them of responsibility.
so being factual is something that others use to weasel out of things? ...
Yes, you are being factual in that you don't heal anything. It is weaseling because you don't do anything else, useful, for unhealthy people. It is simple to test your claims to be once-removed and enhance the body's ability to heal itself; but there is no good evidence that you do.

the honorable opposition wrote:for the record then medicine technically does not heal you either, the ortho the reconstruced my shoulder did not heal me - just changed the situation in there allowing the body todo the actual healing
Wow, how ignorant. Gawd is right, medicine can, and often does, heal otherwise fatal illnesses. Medicine can also paliate the effects of illnesses. Chiropracty has not contributed anything to those abilities (aside from being equivalent to massage for low back pain).

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:55 am

heal otherwise fatal illnesses.


ok i'll bite, what is medicine doing to actually "heal" the body outside of killing off infections and replacing parts with artificial ones

give me examples where the body itself is not directly involved with the healing process doing things that are beyond what the doctors are doing to heal itself

might be an interesting thing to talk about

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:01 am

They healed my cancer, they healed my malaria, etc. A chiro would have given me a back massage and told me I was cured.

so be more specific what did they do to "cure" the malaria or the cancer

i'm glad that you don't have these and these are outside the scope of manual medicine by the way

are you free from cancer totally with no chance of remission? that would be cured i guess

malaria is an infection so that part can be killed but what happened to the areas damaged by the infection or the cancer or the treatment? did they "heal" from the treatment or did your body do something on it's one to complete the healing process?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:02 am

You wish, at least. You KNOW that chiropractic doesn't heal anything. "First hand" we might say. Doesn't that conflict you at all?


i think you need to be more specific and knowlegable about how the body heals itself even after being helped by doctors

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:23 am

I promised myself I wasn't going to get drawn into this, but the screaming inside my head is deafening... :banghead:

HO, is it your position that chiropractic can heal/treat cancer, malaria, etc.?

And/or do you claim that traditional medicine (that means MD) cannot?

I would also be interested to know if you think chiro can treat/manage (since you cannot prescribe medication) diabetes, eczema, pneumonia, hypertension, burst appendix, atherosclerosis ... shall I go on?

Honestly, other than a wonderfully expensive massage, just what are you claiming you can do?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:38 am

HO, is it your position that chiropractic can heal/treat cancer, malaria, etc.?


boy are you way off track - try re- reading the post

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:39 am

http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochr ... tract.html

this came to me in an email - so i cannot give you the website it is from
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:42 am

you did not answer the question posed gawdzilla

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:32 am

the honorable opposition wrote:HO, is it your position that chiropractic can heal/treat cancer, malaria, etc.?


boy are you way off track - try re- reading the post

I have re-read it many times and I do not understand your position. Would you care to restate it for me? I do not have the time or inclination to read all 47(?) pgs. of this thread. Thanks.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:08 am

the honorable opposition wrote:
heal otherwise fatal illnesses.

ok i'll bite, what is medicine doing to actually "heal" the body outside of killing off infections and replacing parts with artificial ones ...
Okay, my irony-meter just exploded. You are asking "Aside from all the things that medicine can heal and chiropracty cannot, what is the difference?" You even shortened it, medicine is not just treating infections and artificial parts. The difference between knowledge and ignorance is "ignorance" is unlimited.

Keep on snapping necks, and include your customers in your prayers.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:11 pm

first off, i am not saying that chiropractic be used for cancer or malaria - never did

what i am saying is that most medical cures are not really healing the body

it's like saying fertilizer grows a plant - not really you give the plant nutrients and the plant grows the plant

like i said try reading up on the bodies healing processes and then talk to me about how medicine cures the body - the body is doing most if not all the work when you look at it from start to finish

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:34 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:
heal otherwise fatal illnesses.


ok i'll bite, what is medicine doing to actually "heal" the body outside of killing off infections and replacing parts with artificial ones

give me examples where the body itself is not directly involved with the healing process doing things that are beyond what the doctors are doing to heal itself

might be an interesting thing to talk about

3D conformal radiation killed my prostate cancer. Anyone without a close view of their own prostate would see other examples.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:56 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:... what i am saying is that most medical cures are not really healing the body ... like i said try reading up on the bodies healing processes and then talk to me about how medicine cures the body - the body is doing most if not all the work when you look at it from start to finish
Now you have exploded my new irony meter! What gall, a chiropractor telling us to learn about healing. I am speechless, reduced to an emoticon :doh:

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:30 pm

finally

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:31 pm

A body-wide syndrome caused by an infection called sepsis is a leading cause of death in hospital intensive care units, striking 750,000 people every year and killing more than 215,000. Sepsis is a serious public health problem, causing more deaths annually than heart disease. The most severe form of sepsis occurs when bacteria leak into the bloodstream, spilling their poisons and leading to a dangerous condition called septic shock. Blood pressure plunges dangerously low, the heart has difficulty pumping enough blood, and body temperature climbs or falls rapidly. In many cases, multiple organs fail and the patient dies.

Despite the obvious public health importance of finding effective ways to treat sepsis, researchers have been frustratingly unsuccessful. Kevin Tracey of the North Shore-Long Island Jewish Research Institute in Manhasset, New York, has identified an unusual suspect in the deadly crime of sepsis: the nervous system. Tracey and his coworkers have discovered an unexpected link between cytokines, the chemical weapons released by the immune system during sepsis, and a major nerve that controls critical body functions such as heart rate and digestion. In animal studies, Tracey found that electrically stimulating this nerve, called the vagus nerve, significantly lowered blood levels of TNF, a cytokine that is produced when the body senses the presence of bacteria in the blood. Further research has led Tracey to conclude that production of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine underlies the inflammation-blocking response. Tracey is investigating whether stimulating the vagus nerve can be used as a component of therapy for sepsis and as a treatment for other immune disorders.
http://publications.nigms.nih.gov/medbydesign/chapter2.html

i thought this was interesting in noting nervous system involvment with an immune response

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:36 pm

Healing
The body has an amazing ability to heal. The body heals fractured bones in three steps.

1) Inflammation: The site of the injury swells. The inflammation is caused by an increased amount of blood flow. The body increases blood flow to the area to bring immune system cells to the area. The cells remove damaged tissue from the area.

2) Repair: After the injured area is cleaned out of damaged tissue, the body starts building external callus. External callus is a temporary growth of bone structure. At first the external callus is weak and prone to injury. As the external callus grows, it calcifies and becomes stronger. The external callus stabilizes the injury site.

3) Restoration: After the external callus is formed, the body works on building brand new bone. The body absorbs the external callus as it builds fresh new bone.

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4709745_fractured-finger-heal.html

and the doctor does what in this process?? re-align the bone if necessary so it heals straight and bandage it so it is supported

my point again -does this treatment actually heal the injury or is the body doing the healing on it's own?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:52 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:... i thought this was interesting in noting nervous system involvment with an immune response
Let me guess, you imagine you can get in on that action by adjusting subluxations and improving the flow of II.
the honorable opposition wrote:... my point again -does this treatment actually heal the injury or is the body doing the healing on it's own?
[italics added] WTF?? The point remains that you cannot remedy any condition and MDs can. They also brought us disease prevention methods such as public health (sanitation), aseptic techniques and vaccinations. Chiros did not contribute to disease prevention, cure or palliation- the chiropractic hat trick.

Face it- the bilateral vertebral-artery dissection is chiro's only "gift" to humanity.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:10 pm

JJ, how you've managed to put up with this nonsense for 4 yrs. and 50 pgs. is unbelievable. If I believed in saints, I'd nominate you. :award:



Why does, "I help the body heal itself" sound so much like "You don't believe in god because you just won't let yourself"? :scratch:
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:08 am

Face it- the bilateral vertebral-artery dissection is chiro's only "gift" to humanity.


wrong again- check your research

i love jjm - nevers answers a direct question and always so polite

the conversation was that chiro's were bad because they did not heal anything, and my point was that in reality docs dealing with joints and muscles don't really heal anything - they change the situation and allow the body to heal itself

so for jjm and the short bus crew - it's a really stupid thing to say that chiro's don't heal anything because no docs dealing with these things heal anything

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:21 am

the honorable opposition wrote:so for jjm and the short bus crew ...{snipped}

It's a good thing I'm not much of a squealer, because I find this line incredibly offensive. And you consider yourself a professional? :shock:
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:23 am

Conclusion. VBA stroke is a very rare event in the population. The increased risks of VBA stroke associated with chiropractic and PCP visits is likely due to patients with headache and neck pain from VBA dissection seeking care before their stroke. We found no evidence of excess risk of VBA stroke associated chiropractic care compared to primary care.


once again from http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/pa ... e=abstract

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:28 am

It's a good thing I'm not much of a squealer, because I find this line incredibly offensive. And you consider yourself a professional?



sorry i should have said slow on the uptake, have you seen what your crew calls me on a regular basis - and you are offended by "short bus"?

have you heard the one about the pot and kettle

it would be nice if the moderator cleaned up the offensive language and verbal abuse of the skeptics -

many people here cannot have a discussion without intensely attacking the person - guess that shows the strength of the argument

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:28 am

the honorable opposition wrote:
Face it- the bilateral vertebral-artery dissection is chiro's only "gift" to humanity.


wrong again- check your research

i love jjm - nevers answers a direct question and always so polite

the conversation was that chiro's were bad because they did not heal anything, and my point was that in reality docs dealing with joints and muscles don't really heal anything - they change the situation and allow the body to heal itself

so for jjm and the short bus crew - it's a really stupid thing to say that chiro's don't heal anything because no docs dealing with these things heal anything

And one mega-weasel for you. :pats on head:
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