What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:23 pm

JJM wrote:
JJM wrote:
JJM wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:... in combination with existing US studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, ...
Why don't you point us to the high quality studies that compare chiropractic treatment for neck pain vs. safer treatments? You have just linked to a puff-piece that was commissioned to make chiro look good. I will see what is in that document. ...
I am still waiting for the quality research supporting chiro in neck treatment. I found this that reviews such studies and finds them too be too poor quality to recommend neck snaps: http://www.bestbets.org/bets/bet.php?id=195
Comment(s): Virtually all of these studies are flawed and the numbers tiny. In particular there are no powerful studies comparing best conventional treatment with best alternative treatments. ...

Clinical Bottom Line: Chiropractic therapy is associated with improvement in neck symptoms but there is no evidence to show whether this improvement is greater or worse than that obtained with conventional treatment.
Bump- Where is the quality data for the efficacy of neck snaps?
ETA:
the honorable opposition wrote:http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/124/6/1067 delayed onset pain after trauma has been widely described in the literature ...
Where is your data that chiropracty can identify and safely treat those conditions?
Bump

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:12 pm

does anyone here believe that kirk cameron is a reliable spokesman for anyone or anything?

ernst has an agenda as shown by the numerous rebuttals to his work from MDs and Manual Medicine practitioners

look it up

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:27 pm

Patient's sign a consent to treat form in a chiropractors office just like in every other doctor's office that outlines potential risks to treatment and other types of care available

this is a requirement of every HMO and malpractice insurance carrier - so patient's know what they are getting into and make the choices that they feel is appropriate

you guys really don't know what you are talking about most of the time

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:32 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:does anyone here believe that kirk cameron is a reliable spokesman for anyone or anything?

ernst has an agenda as shown by the numerous rebuttals to his work from MDs and Manual Medicine practitioners

look it up

Kirk is typical of the creationist. And they're the most vocal kind of theist in the US. If you don't like that, get rid of him.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:33 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:Patient's sign a consent to treat form in a chiropractors office just like in every other doctor's office that outlines potential risks to treatment and other types of care available

this is a requirement of every HMO and malpractice insurance carrier - so patient's know what they are getting into and make the choices that they feel is appropriate

you guys really don't know what you are talking about most of the time

So it's okay to kill your patient's if you have a waiver? No wonder you like chiro.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:41 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:ernst has an agenda as shown by the numerous rebuttals to his work from MDs and Manual Medicine practitioners

look it up

Why don't you provide us with the references? Meanwhile, let's not forget that over 15,000 MDs and scientists indirectly support Ernst's work through their show of support for Simon Singh, Ernst's Trick or Treatment? Alternative Medicine on Trial co-author, who is being sued for libel for daring to publicly criticise chiropractic practices in the British press.

With regard to the rebuttals of Ernst's work by manual medicine practitioners, let's not forget that they have their livelihoods to protect. It's something that Canter and Ernst pointed out in their reply to criticisms of their 2006 Systematic Review of Systematic Reviews of Spinal Manipulation:
...it is worth noting that most of the commentators are affiliated with chiropractic or osteopathic organizations, while neither of us is on the payroll of an interested party.

http://web.archive.org/web/200709270226 ... anters.pdf

Last edited by Blue_Wode on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:50 pm

look up the references - do i have to do all your work for you?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:52 pm

let's not forget that over 15,000 MDs and scientists indirectly support Ernst's work through their show of support for Simon Singh, Ernst's Trick or Treatment? Alternative Medicine on Trial


wow indirect support - that is pretty heady stuff

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:59 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:Patient's sign a consent to treat form in a chiropractors office just like in every other doctor's office that outlines potential risks to treatment and other types of care available

this is a requirement of every HMO and malpractice insurance carrier - so patient's know what they are getting into and make the choices that they feel is appropriate

you guys really don't know what you are talking about most of the time

Presumably you aren't aware of the following surveys which suggest that large numbers of chiropractors aren’t obtaining informed consent from their patients:
Consent: its practices and implications in United Kingdom and United States chiropractic practice

Results from this survey suggest a patient’s autonomy and right to self-determination may be compromised when seeking chiropractic care. Difficulties and omissions in the implementation of valid consent processes appear common, particularly in relation to risk.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum


Consent or submission? The practice of consent within UK chiropractic

Results suggest that valid consent procedures are either poorly understood or selectively implemented by UK chiropractors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... s=15726031


Indeed, if you watch the following short video clip (3 mins 12 secs) which outlines Sandra Nette’s harrowing experience at the hands of a chiropractor in Canada, you’ll learn that she didn’t get the chance to make an informed choice about her treatment:
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/class-a ... #clip59878

It's also interesting to note that on January 5th and 6th, 2010, the Connecticut State Board of Chiropractic Examiners will be holding a hearing to determine if chiropractors should be required to inform patients of the risks and have them sign off on it before they undergo any treatment:

'Young Mom Dies After a Chiropractic Adjustment'
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_n ... adjustment

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:14 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:Patient's sign a consent to treat form in a chiropractors office just like in every other doctor's office that outlines potential risks to treatment and other types of care available
"Consent" is not enough for an unproven procedure, rather "informed consent" is required. In the case of the neck snap, tell them that it can cause a stroke and nobody knows how likely that is and the benefit of the snap is unproven. In essence, it is an experimental procedure.

the honorable opposition wrote:look up the references - do i have to do all your work for you?
When you make a claim that many qualified people dispute Ernst, it is incumbent on you to provide the evidence. That is the rule. When you claim that chiro is (safe and) effective for neck pain, likewise. I don't make the rules, I just follow them.

As a practical matter, I state that there is no evidence for either of your assertions. I cannot produce a lack of evidence. You see, you must support your assertions that (rigorous) evidence exists; to be fair, I know you cannot.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:47 am

For the patient’s consent to be valid, you, the doctor, need to review with the patient the six basic elements that should be included on an informed consent form. These six elements are:

1. The patient’s diagnosis/condition and the proposed treatment, modality, or procedures for correction;

2. The relevant risks and benefits of the proposed treatment, modality, or procedures;

3. Alternative treatment or procedures that are available to the patient and the relative risks, benefits, and uncertainties related to each alternative;

4. The risk and/or benefits of not receiving or undergoing any treatment or procedure;

5. The assessment of the patient’s understanding of the information provided; and

6. The acceptance by the patient to undergo the recommended treatment, modality, or procedure.

In addition, the patient needs to be competent and the consent must be voluntary in order to be valid.

How much information does a full informed consent form need? Three basic standards determine the amount. The most consistent of the three standards is the “reasonable patient standard.”

This standard requires sufficient information that the average patient would need to know and understand in order to be an informed participant in the decision. You are not required to make the patient a mini-chiropractor; you just have to provide enough information so that the average person would say, “I get it and understand the risks involved.”

The other two major standards are the “reasonable physician” and “subjective” standards.

Both have properties that make them less advantageous than the reasonable patient standard. I mention them to alert you that your specific state may have one of them as the standard you need to follow.

Review your state statutes or legal case law to identify which standard is appropriate in your specific case.

To further protect yourself if a liability claim should occur with a patient, document the oral communication process and file the document in the patient’s records.

Include in this documentation that you:

1. Met face to face with the patient;

2. Reviewed each of the components listed above with the patient;

3. The information reviewed is contained within the informed consent form;

4. The patient was competent and understood the information; and

5. The patient voluntarily signed the associated informed consent form.


sorry my bad - i meant to say "informed consent"

this is how it works and how it is supposed to be done at minimum - informed consent is an ongoing process

how many of you have had "informed consent " the last time they were prescribed medication?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:07 am

the honorable opposition wrote:how many of you have had "informed consent " the last time they were prescribed medication?

I get a thick packet of information with each and every prescription.

Saying medical doctors "are just as bad" doesn't make chiroquackers look any better, BTW.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:21 am

i get a thick packet of information with each and every prescription.

Saying medical doctors "are just as bad" doesn't make chiroquackers look any better, BTW.


aren't we quick on the trigger - that is not what i am saying and getting a packet of info in not "informed consent"

the doctor is supposed to go over risks and benefits with you in the office and should have you sign off on it

so if the chiropractors do the same thing as the medics - they are "more" bad than them ??

could it be that they are both doing what is considered the standard of practice in their area - perfect or not

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:25 am

cool, i just put JJm on my ignore list!

as far as the current reseach notes, the people who supposedly got strokes because of manipulation walked into the office and sought treatment because they were already had arterial dissections going on in the first place

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:27 am

the honorable opposition wrote:
i get a thick packet of information with each and every prescription.

Saying medical doctors "are just as bad" doesn't make chiroquackers look any better, BTW.


aren't we quick on the trigger - that is not what i am saying and getting a packet of info in not "informed consent"

the doctor is supposed to go over risks and benefits with you in the office and should have you sign off on it

so if the chiropractors do the same thing as the medics - they are "more" bad than them ??

could it be that they are both doing what is considered the standard of practice in their area - perfect or not

My, don't we make assumptions. The first time I get a med the doctor goes over it with me. And everytime I get a refill, the packet of information, much more extensive than I could get in one office visit, is included.

And chiroquackers are taking money under false pretenses, so they are "more" bad than doctors.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:36 am

My, don't we make assumptions. The first time I get a med the doctor goes over it with me. And everytime I get a refill, the packet of information, much more extensive than I could get in one office visit, is included.

And chiroquackers are taking money under false pretenses, so they are "more" bad than doctors


once again that is not "informed consent" to the level that it is supposed to be done and documented

talking about a-sue-me indians again?? taking money under false pretenses? that is a pretty big assumption there yourself

guess all the manual therapists are in the same boat there - they all be bad

do you guys really think that the rest of the world is really filled with idiots and you guys are the "chosen ones" (maybe that is too religious in conotation) - if you chose not to believe in something ie. God, fine, your choice ,but it seems to me that most skeptics here are really pretty nasty and berating to anyone who disagrees with them

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:37 am

the honorable opposition wrote:do you guys really think that the rest of the world is really filled with idiots

We go by what comes by.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:51 am

i guess that is a yes then - so I guess you consider yourself more "all knowing" or should I say "god - like" than the rest of us

kind of funny when you think about it

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:02 am

the honorable opposition wrote:kind of funny when you think about it

I find arrogance funny.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:14 am

you must get a good belly laugh every morning in the mirror then -LOL!!

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:16 am

the honorable opposition wrote:you must get a good belly laugh every morning in the mirror then -LOL!!

I once told a guy I could cure him of his pacificism in 15 seconds or less.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:32 am

ok - i'll give you that one, that is funny

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:49 am

the honorable opposition wrote:as far as the current reseach notes, the people who supposedly got strokes because of manipulation walked into the office and sought treatment because they were already had arterial dissections going on in the first place

Aren't chiropractors trained to know when neck manipulation is contraindicated? That would include being able to identify a stroke in progress. One can only presume that you are not aware of the following:
Recent reports produced by chiropractors argue that the incidence of stroke among persons who have had neck manipulation is “…to the same order of magnitude as that occurring in the general population,”[4] and that there is “…no evidence of excess risk of VBA [vertebrobasilar artery] stroke associated with chiropractic care compared with primary care.”[7] But these reports fail to distinguish strokes caused by trauma to the vertebral arteries of young healthy people from the type of strokes that occur among predisposed persons, especially the elderly. No consideration is given to the possibility that many strokes caused by neck manipulation may go unreported. When patients seek medical care for paralytic symptoms caused by release of a blood clot that was formed days or weeks earlier by neck manipulation, for example, a connection between neck manipulation and stroke may not be made. Such strokes may then be reported by primary care physicians who are unaware of preceding trauma caused by neck manipulation, thus sparing chiropractors of any blame.

The most recent chiropractor-headed study of the association between chiropractic visits and vertebrobasilar artery stroke, based on billing records, concluded that strokes associated with chiropractic neck manipulation occur because patients with headache and neck pain caused by vertebrobasilar dissection seek chiropractic care for relief of symptoms: “The increased risks of VBA stroke associated with chiropractic and PCP [primary care physician] visits is likely due to patients with headache and neck pain from VBA dissection seeking care before their stroke.”[7] In other words, the report implies that a chiropractor is not to be blamed for making an incorrect diagnosis and then manipulating the neck of a patient who presents the symptoms of a stroke in progress. It goes without saying, however, that it is the responsibility of the chiropractor to recognize symptoms of stroke before manipulating the patient’s neck, especially if the chiropractor practices independently or portrays himself or herself as a primary care physician.

More...
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1037


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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:44 am

We really need a smilie that say "My mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with facts."
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:06 pm

Aren't chiropractors trained to know when neck manipulation is contraindicated? That would include being able to identify a stroke in progress. One can only presume that you are not aware of the following


however if you read it - you will note that the patient presents with headache and neck pain - strokes can initially present with ONLY these signs and symptoms

what else presents with headache and neck pain ??? lets see - headaches and mechanical neck pain - things that are treated with manual medicine daily

so if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck we should all assume it is a chicken?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Blue_Wode » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:28 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:
Aren't chiropractors trained to know when neck manipulation is contraindicated? That would include being able to identify a stroke in progress. One can only presume that you are not aware of the following


however if you read it - you will note that the patient presents with headache and neck pain - strokes can initially present with ONLY these signs and symptoms

what else presents with headache and neck pain ??? lets see - headaches and mechanical neck pain - things that are treated with manual medicine daily

In which case shouldn't you be erring on the side of caution and not using neck manipulation when other safer options exist?
Spinal manipulation for neck pain is a treatment with unknown benefits and unknown harm. Because of this and the fact that serious risks are on record, a responsible risk–benefit assessment cannot ignore the risks and cannot come out in favour of spinal manipulation. Remember the supreme law in medicine: first do no harm. Other therapies for neck pain exist, e.g. exercise, which are supported by at least as good evidence for benefit and which are at the same time free of significant risks. The inescapable recommendation based on the best evidence available today is to use exercise rather than spinal manipulation as a treatment for neck pain.

http://beta.medicinescomplete.com/journ ... a06d01.htm


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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:58 pm

"In which case shouldn't you be erring on the side of caution and not using neck manipulation when other safer options exist?""

considering the recent studies show that there is no increased risk, and manipulation has shown to be effective in specific cases and is commonly used by PT's and DO's besides Chiropractors - shouldn't the good practitioner use what he / she feels is going to get the response desired in the quickest period of time?

how long do you want to be in pain?

does clinical experience mean anything? this is the other thing that drives the doctor's judgment as to what is appropriate

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:04 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:... does clinical experience mean anything? ...
No.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:50 pm

JJM wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:... does clinical experience mean anything? ...
No.

It's just as meaningful as "old wives' tales". Subjective data.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:17 pm

good thing you are not a doctor then, clinical experience is extremely important to any practitioner - that is why doctor's go through a residency and internships

aren't these still a part of becoming a doctor?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:52 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:good thing you are not a doctor then, clinical experience is extremely important to any practitioner - that is why doctor's go through a residency and internships

aren't these still a part of becoming a doctor?

Clinical experience and clinical trials, on Earth anyway, are two different things. How is it where you're at?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:13 pm

Do some mechanics screw up a car repair? Do some of those cars crash? Are sometimes people killed? Same thing with medical doctors, pilots, pharmacists etc.

I don't hear anyone calling for their professions to be banned. People make mistakes.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:19 pm

landrew wrote:Do some mechanics screw up a car repair? Do some of those cars crash? Are sometimes people killed? Same thing with medical doctors, pilots, pharmacists etc.

I don't hear anyone calling for their professions to be banned. People make mistakes.

Do mechanics know how cars work? Is the tailpipe connected directly to the rearview mirror?

When your car dies, do you have a funeral?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:32 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:Do some mechanics screw up a car repair? Do some of those cars crash? Are sometimes people killed? Same thing with medical doctors, pilots, pharmacists etc.

I don't hear anyone calling for their professions to be banned. People make mistakes.

Do mechanics know how cars work? Is the tailpipe connected directly to the rearview mirror?

When your car dies, do you have a funeral?

Are you saying that chiropractors don't understand the human skeleton?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:38 pm

landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:Do some mechanics screw up a car repair? Do some of those cars crash? Are sometimes people killed? Same thing with medical doctors, pilots, pharmacists etc.

I don't hear anyone calling for their professions to be banned. People make mistakes.

Do mechanics know how cars work? Is the tailpipe connected directly to the rearview mirror?

When your car dies, do you have a funeral?

Are you saying that chiropractors don't understand the human skeleton?

I'm saying they shouldn't pretend to heal illnesses. They should admit they're glorified massage therapists. What's so hard to understand about that?
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:57 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:When your car dies, do you have a funeral?

Are you saying that chiropractors don't understand the human skeleton?

I'm saying they shouldn't pretend to heal illnesses. They should admit they're glorified massage therapists. What's so hard to understand about that?

I'm saying if people are willing to pay for it, it's not for the government to say it's bad for you. Same as the, tobacco, alcohol or dope arguments, remember?
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:00 pm

landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:When your car dies, do you have a funeral?

Are you saying that chiropractors don't understand the human skeleton?

I'm saying they shouldn't pretend to heal illnesses. They should admit they're glorified massage therapists. What's so hard to understand about that?

I'm saying if people are willing to pay for it, it's not for the government to say it's bad for you. Same as the, tobacco, alcohol or dope arguments, remember?

Okay, let's deregulate everything. Traffic laws, they're restrictive and demanding. If I want to pass a stopped school bus at 85 mph, why shouldn't I?

Sheesh.
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JJM
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:05 pm

landrew wrote:Do some mechanics screw up a car repair? ... People make mistakes.
If your car is backfiring, would you go to a caropractor who will x-ray and adjust your drive shaft? Why do you persist posting on topics you don't understand?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:18 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:Do some mechanics screw up a car repair? ... People make mistakes.
If your car is backfiring, would you go to a caropractor who will x-ray and adjust your drive shaft?

If he gets near my drive shaft he'd get slapped. :lol:
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:30 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:When your car dies, do you have a funeral?

Are you saying that chiropractors don't understand the human skeleton?

I'm saying they shouldn't pretend to heal illnesses. They should admit they're glorified massage therapists. What's so hard to understand about that?

I'm saying if people are willing to pay for it, it's not for the government to say it's bad for you. Same as the, tobacco, alcohol or dope arguments, remember?

Okay, let's deregulate everything. Traffic laws, they're restrictive and demanding. If I want to pass a stopped school bus at 85 mph, why shouldn't I?

Sheesh.

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