What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
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vanderpoel
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby vanderpoel » Sat May 23, 2009 4:58 am

the honorable opposition wrote:so what exactly so interesting about the UK article - same old stuff - referencing dubious websites as information sources

I'm surprised that no-one has come to the defense of Dr. Barrett?

I'm surprised that all the great minds here have not really answered the question I posed?

Your statements have question marks but do not require answers.
Your question does not have a question mark and was already answered by you.
Obviously not requiring a great mind.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue May 26, 2009 12:40 am

Woo, slow down there cowboy! That is alot to take in all at once :D

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby vanderpoel » Tue May 26, 2009 2:28 am

the honorable opposition wrote:Woo, slow down there cowboy! That is alot to take in all at once :D

:mrgreen:
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue May 26, 2009 3:37 pm

"Chiropractic in the News" http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=474
Caring clinicians can be found in chiropractic, in homeopathy, in every kind of quackery, and in scientific medicine, with the advantage that the scientific clinician can also provide effective evidence-based treatments.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue May 26, 2009 6:18 pm

yet another reference for a skeptic website.

As we all know, skeptic websites cannot be used to support a skeptic viewpoint on this board.

The same rules should apply to all of us, right JJM?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Tue May 26, 2009 6:26 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:yet another reference for a skeptic website.

As we all know, skeptic websites cannot be used to support a skeptic viewpoint on this board.

The same rules should apply to all of us, right JJM?

Ya know, HO, I don't think JJ claimed this was a reference. I believe he just posted a link, an opinion piece by Harriet Hall, MD, which actually is a very critical analysis of Gen. Becky Whats-her-name touting chiropractic. The General has zero qualifications to discuss the merits of chiro, but 'just loves it and thinks everyone should have it built into their health plan'. Yikes! :shock:

That's all. Calm down and reload. :D
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue May 26, 2009 7:17 pm

the honorable opposition wrote: {snipped embarrassing ... what?}
The same rules should apply to all of us, right JJM?
Yes, you just have to show how it is wrong. I will leave you to that task- without holding my breath.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue May 26, 2009 7:30 pm

JJM wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote: {snipped embarrassing ... what?}
The same rules should apply to all of us, right JJM?
Yes, you just have to show how it is wrong. I will leave you to that task- without holding my breath.


"I'm right, and to prove it, here's someone who agrees with me."
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Tue May 26, 2009 7:55 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
JJM wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote: {snipped embarrassing ... what?}
The same rules should apply to all of us, right JJM?
Yes, you just have to show how it is wrong. I will leave you to that task- without holding my breath.


"I'm right, and to prove it, here's someone who agrees with me."

Really. If everyone would just agree with me, it'd go a lot more smoothly here. :lol:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby vanderpoel » Tue May 26, 2009 8:06 pm

brauneyz wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
JJM wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote: {snipped embarrassing ... what?}
The same rules should apply to all of us, right JJM?
Yes, you just have to show how it is wrong. I will leave you to that task- without holding my breath.


"I'm right, and to prove it, here's someone who agrees with me."

Really. If everyone would just agree with me, it'd go a lot more smoothly here. :lol:

Wouldnʻt that be braun nozing? :wink:
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue May 26, 2009 8:08 pm

brauneyz wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
JJM wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote: {snipped embarrassing ... what?}
The same rules should apply to all of us, right JJM?
Yes, you just have to show how it is wrong. I will leave you to that task- without holding my breath.


"I'm right, and to prove it, here's someone who agrees with me."

Really. If everyone would just agree with me, it'd go a lot more smoothly here. :lol:


You are so right, my dear!
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue May 26, 2009 8:10 pm

vanderpoel wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
JJM wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote: {snipped embarrassing ... what?}
The same rules should apply to all of us, right JJM?
Yes, you just have to show how it is wrong. I will leave you to that task- without holding my breath.


"I'm right, and to prove it, here's someone who agrees with me."

Really. If everyone would just agree with me, it'd go a lot more smoothly here. :lol:

Wouldnʻt that be braun knowzing? :wink:

fixt
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Tue May 26, 2009 8:10 pm

vanderpoel wrote:
brauneyz wrote:Really. If everyone would just agree with me, it'd go a lot more smoothly here. :lol:

Wouldnʻt that be braun nozing? :wink:

The eyz have it. Rulz iz rulz. :lol:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby vanderpoel » Tue May 26, 2009 8:25 pm

brauneyz wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:
brauneyz wrote:Really. If everyone would just agree with me, it'd go a lot more smoothly here. :lol:

Wouldnʻt that be braun nozing? :wink:

The eyz have it. Rulz iz rulz. :lol:

Eye zee :roll:
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed May 27, 2009 1:45 am

Yes, you just have to show how it is wrong. I will leave you to that task- without holding my breath.


oh brother, same rules apply to u as to me - or you can ditch your rules and let the discussion move forward

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed May 27, 2009 1:47 am

i'm sorry, i really should just agree with JJM and same all the work. He's right you know! Why can't we just see it immediately? I should just have him explain everything to me and I can be a success in life.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed May 27, 2009 4:22 am

oh and to answer a previous snide remark, i only made 97 posts out of all of the ones made here

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed May 27, 2009 4:29 am

whereas jjm made over 1400 posts in about 50 different topics - amazing how he can be an expert in so many areas at the same time

people rag on me - i just return the facts and ask questions

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed May 27, 2009 6:44 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:{snip} people rag on me - i just return the facts and ask questions
No, you don't return reliable "facts" and your questions are inane. And then, you reject answers on an ad hoc basis.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu May 28, 2009 2:59 am

No, you don't return reliable "facts" and your questions are inane. And then, you reject answers on an ad hoc basis.JJM


Of course this is your opinion. You reject reliable evidence and reject using a little common sense. My questions are posed to make you think a little about healthcare and the choices people have to make based on the present choices available. You regect even giving an honest attempt to give some thought into an answer.
You are rude and ill mannered, and do not debate information presented. You have a point of view to put across and stack the deck with your "rules".

You want to make rules - then live by them when you present information to the board

no wonder many people seem to have you on their ignore list.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu May 28, 2009 8:34 pm

Here is an interesting analysis by Professor Ernst

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... actic.html

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby HghrSymmetry » Sat May 30, 2009 5:53 pm

I'd be more impressed if you came up with some original thoughts, ...*snip*...

Somewhat ironic...coming from one who obsesses over the same subject year in and year out.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:53 am

"Adverse Effects of Chiropractic" http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=509
There is a very good chance that you will feel worse after seeing a chiropractor.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:15 pm

JJM wrote:
There is a very good chance that you will feel worse after seeing a chiropractor.

No "happy ending?" :(
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:37 pm

Gord wrote:
JJM wrote:
There is a very good chance that you will feel worse after seeing a chiropractor.

No "happy ending?" :(

You're in the wrong subforum if you're lookin' for that. :wink:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:35 pm

brauneyz wrote:
Gord wrote:No "happy ending?" :(

You're in the wrong subforum if you're lookin' for that. :wink:
That's right (the technical term is "full release).

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:56 am

JJM wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
Gord wrote:No "happy ending?" :(

You're in the wrong subforum if you're lookin' for that. :wink:
That's right (the technical term is "full release).

Oh, right! Like in Sweden!

I saw that report on the Daily Show....
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:42 am

you leave for awhile and this place gets weirder

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:00 am

the honorable opposition wrote:you leave for awhile and this place gets weirder

I hadn't noticed....
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:25 pm

Outside the US, osteopaths are no more informed than chiros; but they think they are. Here is part of an opinion piece in a UK osteopath magazine:

Chiropractic Method of investigation

1. Start with a Conclusion

2. Propose Theory.

Only theories that support the conclusion should be considered. Little or no attempt should be made to test or disprove the proposed theory.

3. Collect Supporting Evidence

One single example of supporting evidence is sufficient, even if there are thousands of examples of evidence that do not support or contradict the theory. Only "supporting" evidence is considered.

4. Reject Modify or Retain Evidence.

If the evidence is undeniably proved to be faulty, then reject it and find some evidence that does support the Theory. The Theory is not normally rejected at this point because only one example of supporting evidence is required to justify the theory. Contradictory evidence is ignored.

If forced to abandon a theory then claim that you didn't believe it all along and that false Chiropractors proposed it. Propose another Theory that supports your conclusion. Go to step 2

Golden Rule:- Conclusion is always the same regardless of evidence or the theory.

Corollary:- For Straight Chiropractors. No evidence at all is required to support a conclusion.

The Scientific method is designed to discover the truth and eliminate falsehoods, lies, ignorance and misunderstanding.

The Chiropractic method is self delusional. It can never uncover a falsehood or prove a truth. It only reinforces existing perceptions of the truth.

The Chiropractic Method is simply Blind Faith and has no bearing on truth whatsoever.

The scientific method: - base your conclusions on observations/evidence.

The chiropractic method: - base your observations/evidence on your conclusions.

This approach clearly draws parallels with the debate from 2006 on The Scientific Method of investigation Vs The Creationist Method of investigation?

See half-way down the page:
http://www.sacralmusings.com/forum/topi ... %3A25592&p age=2

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:43 am

of course I am assuming that you mean the weirdness, I always feel the love here

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:02 am

Review conclusions by Ernst and Canter regarding spinal manipulation refuted
Authors: Gert Bronfort, Mitchell Haas, David Moher, Lex Bouter, Maurits van Tulder, John Triano, Willem J J Assendelft, Roni Evans, Simon Dagenais, Anthony RosnerIn the April 2006 issue of the Journal of Royal Society of Medicine, Ernst and Canter authored a review of the most recent systematic reviews on the effectiveness of spinal manipulation for any condition. The authors concluded that, except for back pain, spinal manipulation is not an effective intervention for any condition and, because of potential side effects, cannot be recommended for use at all in clinical practice. Based on a critical appraisal of their review, the authors of this commentary seriously challenge the conclusions by Ernst and Canter, who did not adhere to standard systematic review methodology, thus threatening the validity of their conclusions. There was no systematic assessment of the literature pertaining to the hazards of manipulation, including comparison to other therapies. Hence, their claim that the risks of manipulation outweigh the benefits, and thus spinal manipulation cannot be recommended as treatment for any condition, was not supported by the data analyzed. Their conclusions are misleading and not based on evidence that allow discrediting of a large body of professionals using spinal manipulation.
Chiropractic & osteopathy. 01/02/200602/2006; 14:14.
ISSN: 1746-1340
DOI: 10.1186/1746-1340-14-14

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:12 am

Effective management of low back pain: it’s time to accept the evidence
Pran Manga, Douglas E Angus, and William R Swan
Abstract
Low back pain is a ubiquitous and economically costly problem. Unfortunately, the clinical management of low back pain is not yet well understood. Chiropractic management of back pain, long the black sheep of back care, has undergone a transition and is now a more respected and understood alternative to conservative medical care, itself under increased scrutiny due to unsatisfactory outcomes and unacceptable iatrogenic side effects. The substantial amount of clinical and related research on the effectiveness of manipulation for low back pain is summarized here from a larger study, divided into randomized control trials, case-control trials, meta-analyses and descriptive studies. The chiropractic management of low back pain is found to be a more effective way of dealing with this medical, social and economic problem. It is suggested that greater utilization of chiropractors be encouraged such that the “right people are doing the right things at the right time”.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:23 am

the honorable opposition wrote:Review conclusions by Ernst and Canter regarding spinal manipulation refuted
Let me help you with that: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... d=16887028
Some chiropractors don't like what Ernst and Canter wrote.
So, they wrote an opinion-piece that was (shockingly) printed in one of their fanzines. They follow standard chiropractice, as outlined above
Chiropractic Method of investigation

1. Start with a Conclusion

2. Propose Theory.

Only theories that support the conclusion should be considered. Little or no attempt should be made to test or disprove the proposed theory.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:31 am

the honorable opposition wrote:Effective management of low back pain: it’s time to accept the evidence
Pran Manga, Douglas E Angus, and William R Swan
In college, we teach kids how to properly cite an article.

If you read what I have written, it is agreed that "manipulation" may be as effective as other treatments (e.g., massage) for low back pain; hence the conclusion that chiros are masseurs with delusions of grandeur.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:24 am

So, they wrote an opinion-piece that was (shockingly) printed in one of their fanzines.


This can be said about all the "research" pulled off the skeptic sites and the opinion posted about chiropractic research above

what's good for the goose

why o why JJm do you think that the rules don't apply to you also??

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:38 pm

In England, chiropractors make false claims about their ability to treat things such as asthma and colic. Somebody documented more than 500 chiros making such claims and filed complaints with the appropriate agencies. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=145176 This got the McTimoney Chiropractic Association (MCA) to advise all their members to take down their internet sites, stop handing out MCA brochures, stop calling themselves doctors (under British law, they are not) and be wary of strangers phoning or dropping in and asking about unsupportable treatments. Fortunately, most of the chiro web-sites, including the MCA's, were archived before they were taken down.

Imagine a health professional who has to worry about being investigated, and won't answer questions. "Doctor, I just moved to town and need someone to help with asthma." Doctor "I can't comment on that." What do chiros have to hide that doctors don't? I know- unsupported claims for treatments.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:52 pm

isn't randi.org a skeptic site?? so according to your logic JJM, I should consider all information on that site as tainted and useless

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:21 pm

Here is an excellent article http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... ?full=true by E. Ernst in New Scientist. The opening paragraph makes an excellent point:
FOR many people, chiropractic appears almost mainstream. Some chiropractors even call themselves "doctor". In the UK, chiropractors are regulated by statute, and in the US they like to be seen as primary care physicians. It is therefore understandable if people hardly ever question the evidential basis on which this profession rests.
[italics added]

ETA: Ernst has recently started a blog, registration to read it is free http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/section.asp?navcode=961

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:01 pm

The British Chiropractic Association (BCA) has released the evidence they think supports their claims for efficacy of chiropractic in certain pediatric illnesses (e.g., colic, asthma). http://www.dcscience.net/?p=1775 After 114 years, they only came up with 29 articles, and some were totally irrelevant (padding). Of the relevant articles, none is compelling. Tiny, uncontrolled and unblinded studies pass for evidence in chiro-ville.

The BCA is suing scientist Simon Singh for libel for saying there is not one jot of evidence supporting their claims for treating colic, and the BCA's list of "evidence" proves that, to a scientist. However, courts are not reliable venues to decide scientific matters. Apparently, the BCA is finding that it is expensive to sue someone (worse, in England if you lose you have to pay the defendant's legal fees).

ETA: see also this http://www.layscience.net/node/598
and this http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2009/0 ... -evidence/


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