What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun May 17, 2009 10:15 pm

[quoteAnd you cannot refute the evidence that chiro is a cult that offers sham health-care.][/quote]

already did that , you just have a problem with it

there appears to be evidence that evidence based medicine is cultish in itself - go figure

guess it just depends on who you talk to

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun May 17, 2009 10:23 pm

JJM - I really don't care if I prove anything to your satisifaction, I'm offering a different viewpoint on the same information you have

I also have my feet based in reality. You should visit sometime, it's not a bad place.

By the way JJM - what are your credentials? Are you someone with education and merit or just some dude at a computer with nothing better to do on a Sunday

Me, I'm just taking beer break from re-doing my daughter's room.

off topic, I was just wondering on the skeptic view of marriage. The evidence would lean that it is most likely bound for failure and the side effects can be very damaging to oneself and even deadly. It would seem to me that getting married would be an act of faith and belief in another person to love you forever and stand by you through thick and thin. Can skeptics make this leap of faith?

Just curious as I don't know any real skeptics, just one agnostic who is a pathologist.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Sun May 17, 2009 10:50 pm

Some day you may see the light of reason...

Until then, namaste...

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun May 17, 2009 11:14 pm

the light of reason?

interesting choice of words - I don't seem to be the unreasonable one here

should I say that perhaps someday you will be touched by the Holy Spirit?

we all have our own gods, man made or divine

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby vanderpoel » Sun May 17, 2009 11:41 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:off topic, I was just wondering on the skeptic view of marriage. The evidence would lean that it is most likely bound for failure and the side effects can be very damaging to oneself and even deadly. It would seem to me that getting married would be an act of faith and belief in another person to love you forever and stand by you through thick and thin. Can skeptics make this leap of faith?

Just curious as I don't know any real skeptics, just one agnostic who is a pathologist.

Check out the "Maine Gay Marriage Bill" elsewhere on this forum.
I has plenty of views on marriage.
As far as "getting married would be an act of faith and belief in another person to love you forever and stand by you through thick and thin" I think youʻre lumping too many questions in one sentence.

When I asked my wife, (a recovering Catholic), 30 years ago if she loved me and wanted to marry me, she answered that there are many reasons to get married besides love and the promise to "stand by you through thick and thin".

That was agreeable and it showed me that her recovery was going well.
After all, getting married on faith alone is as silly as faith itself. :mrgreen:
My back hurts just thinking of that.

Speaking of which and getting back to the OP I like to point out that a woman can lay on her back longer than a man on his knees.

Iʻm no doctor or a chiropractor, but I know how to fix that. :wink:
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Sun May 17, 2009 11:47 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:the light of reason?

interesting choice of words - I don't seem to be the unreasonable one here

should I say that perhaps someday you will be touched by the Holy Spirit?

we all have our own gods, man made or divine


I have the impression you are in the wrong forum...

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Sun May 17, 2009 11:56 pm

skepticdoc wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:the light of reason?

interesting choice of words - I don't seem to be the unreasonable one here

should I say that perhaps someday you will be touched by the Holy Spirit?

we all have our own gods, man made or divine


I have the impression you are in the wrong forum...

Only an impression? Maybe you have map for the HO to lead him back into the light? :D
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 2:33 am

When I asked my wife, (a recovering Catholic), 30 years ago if she loved me and wanted to marry me, she answered that there are many reasons to get married besides love and the promise to "stand by you through thick and thin".


duh, of course there are more reasons to get married that what I listed, but think about it, it really is a leap of faith in the other person to make that kind of committment.

it's not like we are vulcuns or something and always do the logical scientific thing with relationships otherwise there would be no divorce.

I just find it interesting that someone who is purely a skeptic would go down that road.

I agree that catholicism has it's issues but at the core it is a set of rules to live by so that we can all get along better, along with the whole God thing


Sorry for the diversion, but who better to ask than you guys (gals) right?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 2:36 am

And please, the forum nazi's could lighten up a bit, you did not see me make a stink when you guys went off topic a while back.

I think all you guys could use a scotch and a smoke. That is my plan tonight. Cigar not cigarettes for me.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Mon May 18, 2009 2:44 am

the honorable opposition wrote:the light of reason?

interesting choice of words - I don't seem to be the unreasonable one here

should I say that perhaps someday you will be touched by the Holy Spirit?

we all have our own gods, man made or divine


This explains a lot, if you believe in the "Holy Spirit", you might as well believe in Chiropracty, it is a faith issue, not Science.

BTW, cigars are not any healthier than cigarettes, you may absorb more nicotine, the little that you inhale is more concentrated...

All the "Gods" are made by men, if you have evidence to the contrary, please bring it forth (in another thread/topic!)...

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby vanderpoel » Mon May 18, 2009 3:48 am

the honorable opposition wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:When I asked my wife, (a recovering Catholic), 30 years ago if she loved me and wanted to marry me, she answered that there are many reasons to get married besides love and the promise to "stand by you through thick and thin".
duh, of course there are more reasons to get married that what I listed, but think about it, it really is a leap of faith in the other person to make that kind of committment.

Since you were referring to: "an act of faith and belief", I assume that youʻre using it to mean "an act of religious persuasion and judgment".
What I consider a leap of faith is to commit to a procreative relationship based on the fallacies of a religious doctrine administered by celibate men dressed like undertakers.
I agree that catholicism has it's issues but at the core it is a set of rules to live by so that we can all get along better, along with the whole God thing

I you mean with "we" al those who believe in "the whole God thing" then I agree. You all need a set of rules to live by, to keep paying for the wayward life styles and legal entanglements of celibate men in dark robes. :twisted:
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 4:35 am

BTW, cigars are not any healthier than cigarettes, you may absorb more nicotine, the little that you inhale is more concentrated...


I don't think that one or 2 a year is a health hazard, just a nice treat.

What makes you think we are all catholic? I happen to be Lutheran and my pastor is married with 2 kids.

If you think about it Luther was kind of a skeptic with the catholic church although not as full blown as you guys.

I think vanderpool has some latent issues with the catholic church, maybe you need someone to talk it out with, or is counseling a bunch of hooey too?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 4:38 am

Is there a skeptic viewpoint on counseling? and if so how do you guys work through problems that you can't get a handle on if you rule out counseling, psychiatry and religious guidence?

just curious again, doing laundry with the scotch and yes i know that alcohol is bad for me, but not in small doses

thank you for your concern by the way, it is very touching and a surprise from this board

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby vanderpoel » Mon May 18, 2009 4:40 am

the honorable opposition wrote:
BTW, cigars are not any healthier than cigarettes, you may absorb more nicotine, the little that you inhale is more concentrated...


I don't think that one or 2 a year is a health hazard, just a nice treat.

What makes you think we are all catholic? I happen to be Lutheran and my pastor is married with 2 kids.

If you think about it Luther was kind of a skeptic with the catholic church although not as full blown as you guys.

I think vanderpool has some latent issues with the catholic church, maybe you need someone to talk it out with, or is counseling a bunch of hooey too?

"Your Honor, I object: my issues with the Catholic church are not latent" :mrgreen:
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 4:45 am

http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/Abstract/1996/12150/Low_Back_Pain__A_Primary_Care_Challenge.3.aspx


Primary care investigators studying back pain face at least three important challenges. One is to identify more efficient diagnostic strategies that will alleviate doctors' and patients' anxieties. Second is to develop a better theory to explain the large majority of episodes of nonspecific low back pain. At present, competing theories generate competing and conflicting treatments, generating frustration among patients and loss of credibility for clinicians. Third, we need better science, with greater methodologic rigor in the evaluation of the many nonsurgical treatments used for back pain in the primary care setting.


So, if Medicine does not have a handle on non-specific lower back pain, where do you go for help?

Step away from the theories and reterect and give me a good answer and the reasoning behind it, apply some of this to real life

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 4:49 am

CONCLUSIONSThere are flaws in the design of most studies. The pooled odds ratio must be interpreted with caution because the trials at issue, including the high quality trials, did not use identical outcome measures. The results of the 26 randomised trials that have been carried out to date, suggest that NSAIDs might be effective for short-term symptomatic relief in patients with uncomplicated low back pain, but are less effective or ineffective in patients with low back pain with sciatica and patients with sciatica with nerve root symptoms.

http://ard.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/56/4/214

So if there are flaws in the design of most studies, then we can pick most studies apart and say they are useless? This does not seem to leave much less to work with then does it ?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 4:52 am

Study Design. Systematic review.

Objective. To systematically assess benefits and harms of nonsurgical interventional therapies for low back and radicular pain.

Summary of Background Data. Although use of certain interventional therapies is common or increasing, there is also uncertainty or controversy about their efficacy.

Methods. Electronic database searches on Ovid MEDLINE and the Cochrane databases were conducted through July 2008 to identify randomized controlled trials and systematic reviews of local injections, botulinum toxin injection, prolotherapy, epidural steroid injection, facet joint injection, therapeutic medial branch block, sacroiliac joint injection, intradiscal steroid injection, chemonucleolysis, radiofrequency denervation, intradiscal electrothermal therapy, percutaneous intradiscal radiofrequency thermocoagulation, Coblation nucleoplasty, and spinal cord stimulation. All relevant studies were methodologically assessed by 2 independent reviewers using criteria developed by the Cochrane Back Review Group (for trials) and by Oxman (for systematic reviews). A qualitative synthesis of results was performed using methods adapted from the US Preventive Services Task Force.

Results. For sciatica or prolapsed lumbar disc with radiculopathy, we found good evidence that chemonucleolysis is moderately superior to placebo injection but inferior to surgery, and fair evidence that epidural steroid injection is moderately effective for short-term (but not long-term) symptom relief. We found fair evidence that spinal cord stimulation is moderately effective for failed back surgery syndrome with persistent radiculopathy, though device-related complications are common. We found good or fair evidence that prolotherapy, facet joint injection, intradiscal steroid injection, and percutaneous intradiscal radiofrequency thermocoagulation are not effective. Insufficient evidence exists to reliably evaluate other interventional therapies.

Conclusion. Few nonsurgical interventional therapies for low back pain have been shown to be effective in randomized, placebo-controlled trials.
http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/Abstract/2009/05010/Nonsurgical_Interventional_Therapies_for_Low_Back.15.aspx

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 5:11 am

ok , so what do you do? automatically get surgery for back pain?

Controversies in Management: The case for spinal fusion is unproved
James Wilson-MacDonald, consultant orthopaedic surgeon a
a Spinal Unit, Nuffield Orthopaedic Centre, Oxford OX3 7LD

Back pain affects about 80% of the population at some time in their life, and it is generally agreed that most people are best treated conservatively. Most episodes of acute back pain will settle either spontaneously or with treatment, but in a few people the pain does not resolve and they may be considered for spinal fusion.

Spinal fusion was originally developed for the treatment of tuberculosis, poliomyelitis, and scoliosis. Because it seemed successful for treating back pain arising from these conditions, it was assumed that any mechanical back pain could be successfully treated with spinal fusion. More than 20000 lumbar spinal fusions are performed annually in the United States, and there is a direct relation between the number of spinal operations performed in any one area and the number of orthopaedic and neurosurgeons


So now we have one study saying that conservative treatment doesn't work and only surgery does, but another stating that " it is generally agreed that most people are best treated conservatively". Seems contradictory to me.

"More than 20000 lumbar spinal fusions are performed annually in the United States, and there is a direct relation between the number of spinal operations performed in any one area and the number of orthopaedic and neurosurgeons" A contibutor noted that chiropractors were out to bilk gullible patients and that they always do manipulation for any problem. Seems to me that this article states that if you go to a surgeon then you will go get surgery.

It seems to me that these doctors are just doing what they know works in their opinion, chiropractors manipulate, surgeons operate and both think that they will cure the patient ( with some success hopefully).

Why should a population need more surgery just because there are more surgeons?

Back to my question, What do you do when you have serious debilitating non specific back pain?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 5:12 am

Incidence of Failed Back Surgery Syndrome

An estimated 10-40 percent of people undergoing back surgery are affected


Not a good statistic if surgery is the only treatment with any real science behind it.

So what do you do ?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby vanderpoel » Mon May 18, 2009 5:14 am

the honorable opposition wrote:Is there a skeptic viewpoint on counseling? and if so how do you guys work through problems that you can't get a handle on if you rule out counseling, psychiatry and religious guidence?

just curious again, doing laundry with the scotch and yes i know that alcohol is bad for me, but not in small doses

thank you for your concern by the way, it is very touching and a surprise from this board

There is no skeptic viewpoint. Skepticism is a process.
The process is very therapeutic.

Since there is no skeptic viewpoint, your follow-up question: "and if so how do you guys work through problems that you can't get a handle on if you rule out counseling, psychiatry and religious guidence?" :roll: is moot.

See how easy that was? Wake up your dormant Lutheran skepticism and join us,
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Mon May 18, 2009 7:22 am

the honorable opposition wrote:Is there a skeptic viewpoint on counseling? and if so how do you guys work through problems that you can't get a handle on if you rule out counseling, psychiatry and religious guidence?


I don't know about you, but I take my medicine and get plenty of rest and exercise.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon May 18, 2009 9:12 am

the honorable opposition wrote:{snip} So, if Medicine does not have a handle on non-specific lower back pain, where do you go for help?
I know the answer to this ... don't tell me ... not a homeopath, not an astrologer, not a grocer from Davenport who invented silly notions about subluxations and Innate. We have already established that there is no reliable support for Palmer's fantasies. I know- a masseur!!

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 11:18 am

and your research to back this up? Bear in mind that it needs to have the same rigorous research that you expect of chiropractic or any other treatment.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon May 18, 2009 4:14 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:and your research to back this up? Bear in mind that it needs to have the same rigorous research that you expect of chiropractic or any other treatment.

Am I reading this as "prove me wrong?"
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon May 18, 2009 7:24 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:and your research to back this up? Bear in mind that it needs to have the same rigorous research that you expect of chiropractic or any other treatment.
As I have said, this is a long thread and all the relevant information I have has been posted. If you have something new, it is incumbent on you to provide it. After several years of your current incarnation (and the sock puppets) I have a feeling you are played-out. I honestly don't understand why you persist. Are you hoping I will justify your business? Does your conscience bother you? Can't you make a living as a masseur who makes no diagnostic or curative claims?

Wait, I know, chiros don't make curative claims. Thus, when your ministrations are useless, you can say that you never promised anything.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 8:11 pm

so what is the deal with the "chemist, librarian" thing? Seems like an interesting combination of career choices. How did you begin your quest in the chemical / library vocation? It would be interesting to know something about the person behind the disembodied typing and how you became to be such a renowned skeptic.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon May 18, 2009 8:20 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:so what is the deal with the "chemist, librarian" thing? {snip}
So, what is the deal with the ignorant (unable to provide credible references) chiropractor thing?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 8:23 pm

Massage Therapy for Low Back Pain
In one study (9), massage was compared with a placebo (sham laser). Massage was found to be superior to the placebo treatment. In the other seven trials, massage was compared with various active treatments. These studies showed that massage was superior to relaxation (10), acupuncture (11) and education (11); massage was equal to corsets (6,7) and exercises (9); massage was inferior to spinal manipulation (6,7,12,13) and transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) (14). The single German study showed that acupressure/pressure point massage techniques provided more pain relief than classical (Swedish) massage (8).





http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/4/2/165

Interesting to note that massage was inferior to spinal manipulation

Beneficial Effects for Subacute and Chronic Non-specific Low Back Pain

The Cochrane review concluded that massage therapy may be beneficial for patients with subacute and chronic non-specific LBP, particularly when combined with exercises and education. They also noted that the results of one high quality study showed that the benefits of massage last as long 1 year following the end of active treatment (11). The benefit obtained from massage exceeded that achieved from relaxation, education or acupuncture. However, the beneficial effects may be less than that provided by spinal manipulation or TENS. The Cochrane Review noted that there is insufficient evidence regarding the effects of massage on acute back pain and on specific forms of massage for chronic LBP.



Effectiveness of Massage Therapy for Neck Pain Remains Unclear

The authors of the previous work concluded that acupuncture appears to be effective in the short-term for chronic neck pain, it should be noted that by the 3-month follow-up, acupuncture was no more effective than massage or sham laser acupuncture on most outcome measures. Unfortunately, the study did not include direct comparisons between the massage and sham laser conditions. Therefore, it is not possible to determine whether massage was superior to a placebo condition. An unpublished master's thesis (29) has been cited in a recent meta-analysis as providing support for the longer-term effects of massage on pain (30). These studies were included in a very recent Cochrane Review on massage for mechanical neck disorders (31), which also included a broad array of interventions such as traditional Chinese massage, ischemic compression, self-administered ischemic pressure using a J-knob cane, and occipital release, among others. The review authors noted that many of these approaches were of questionable value. The review concluded that no practice recommendations could be made since the effectiveness of massage for neck pain remains unclear.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 8:25 pm

So how again is massage therapy superior to other treatment protocols?

So if massage therapy does not hold up to the rigors of science ,
What do you do when you have severe back pain?

Still waiting on a answer to a real life question, Give me an answer that holds up to scrutiny if you can

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon May 18, 2009 8:56 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:So how again is massage therapy superior to other treatment protocols? {snip}
I did not say it was superior. Why can't you supply usable (clearly traceable) citations?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Mon May 18, 2009 9:07 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:So how again is massage therapy superior to other treatment protocols?

So if massage therapy does not hold up to the rigors of science ,
What do you do when you have severe back pain?

Wait, wait, JJ, I know this one! Let me answer please. :beg:

Massage is not a science, therefore we don't hold it to any rigors. How exactly would you test "Hmmmm, that feels good?" I don't know of any masseuses who promise to cure me of anything. And if I met one, I'd laugh for falling for it. Go ahead now. Your turn. Cite something really brilliant from the Journal of Massage. :roll:

Admittedly, I have not read all 41 pgs. of this thread, but I don't recall JJ ever telling someone not to get a massage and I am quite certain that he has already answered your question re: back pain. Complex, but common condition that frequently (that means many, but not all) is alleviated by rest, heat/ice, analgesics, strengthening/stretching, patience and education. Oh yeah, spring for a massage while you're at it.

I take it from the inside jokes you guys have been at this awhile. :wink:
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon May 18, 2009 9:13 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:{snip} What do you do when you have severe back pain?
It usually resolves, spontaneously, in a short time (days). That's the meat and potatoes for chiros- "See- you came immediately to me and I fixed it." The fact that it would resolve, unattended, is elided.

Nonetheless, I await your reliable evidence that your ministrations are better than simply waiting. Seriously, are you conflicted about scamming people and hope to find validation here?

I see Brauneyz interceded with an insightful comment.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 11:04 pm

I did not say it was superior. Why can't you supply usable (clearly traceable) citations?


I assumed that you considered it superior because the choice you went for.

I have included web pages with the quotes or the quotes have the source information in the quote. Sorry if your computer reseach skills are laking.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 11:06 pm

It usually resolves, spontaneously, in a short time (days). That's the meat and potatoes for chiros- "See- you came immediately to me and I fixed it." The fact that it would resolve, unattended, is elided.


Yes and no to this, the majority of back pain does, I am talking about the 20% that does not resolve.

How do you treat it? Still waiting for a good answer

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon May 18, 2009 11:13 pm

Complex, but common condition that frequently (that means many, but not all) is alleviated by rest, heat/ice, analgesics, strengthening/stretching, patience and education. Oh yeah, spring for a massage while you're at it.


Massage is fine but does it really do any good for non-specific back pain that is not spontaneously resolving. Should it really be the treatment of choice and why?

If you have been reading - All treatments seem to have their failings and need research to support them.

So my question, as a skeptic, and reading the reseach that exists, and knowing that all therapies are shown to be invalid in one study or another, what kind of treatment would you get that stands up to skeptical scrutiny for non specific back pain that is not self resolving?

Chances are whatever you chose, I can find a source that disagrees with you.

So what do you do ? Nothing ? Because no therapy has been really proven to the standards you are asking? If you do chose something - Why? and back it up with real peer reviewed studies as has been requested of me.

I am looking for a real answer and real proof

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue May 19, 2009 1:31 am

Conclusions
* People with back pain do not represent a
homogenous population (age, gender, etiology
of back pain, degree of chronicity, expectations,
etc.), making it difficult, if not impossible, to
compare like with like when assessing the
meaning of different research papers focusing
on back pain.
* People performing manipulation have hugely
varied levels of skill and training, and use a
wide variety of manipulative techniques, even
when these are labelled similarly, creating
obstacles to comparison of like with like.
* Randomized clinical trials are probably not the
ideal tool for measuring methods such as
manipulation for the reasons outlined, making
a meta-analysis of such trials a less than
accurate means of establishing the value of this
treatment method.
* When appropriately selected using the ‘‘clinical
prediction rule’’ (see discussion relating to Flynn
et al., 2002 in Liebenson’s response above),
patients show a very high positive response to
manipulation (up to 95% success rate).
* Lack of proof of efficacy does not prove a
method is ineffective, only that proof is lacking.
http://www.bethesdaphysiocare.com/professionals/pdf/jbmt_lowback_domm04.pdf

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue May 19, 2009 8:48 am

the honorable opposition wrote:
{snip} Why can't you supply usable (clearly traceable) citations?


I have included web pages with the quotes or the quotes have the source information in the quote. Sorry if your computer reseach skills are laking.
My research skills are not laking, professionals provide full citations; amateurs are vague.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue May 19, 2009 8:55 am

the honorable opposition wrote:
It usually resolves, spontaneously, in a short time (days). That's the meat and potatoes for chiros- "See- you came immediately to me and I fixed it." The fact that it would resolve, unattended, is elided.


Yes and no to this, the majority of back pain does, I am talking about the 20% that does not resolve.

How do you treat it? Still waiting for a good answer
The proper question is "How do you treat it that is better than letting it resolve in the long run, or surgery?" The answer is that you don't know if your methods are superior to massage, or, at least, you and your ilk have not published a proper, definitive study.

JJM
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue May 19, 2009 9:15 am

the honorable opposition wrote:Massage is fine but does it really do any good for non-specific back pain that is not spontaneously resolving. Should it really be the treatment of choice and why?
Well, it is inexpensive and the provider does not have delusions about being able to diagnose problems on a par with a health professional.

the honorable opposition wrote:{snip} Chances are whatever you chose, I can find a source that disagrees with you.
Duh. That doesn't support chiropracty. In addition, one needs to be able to evaluate published research.

the honorable opposition wrote:So what do you do ? Nothing ? Because no therapy has been really proven to the standards you are asking? {snip}
So, if one has an intractable problem the solution is what- homeopathy, chiropracty, faith healing, psychic surgery? Any old thing lacking proof? There's a puddle in Lourdes, France, that the catholics like. If they like it, it must work, no?

JJM
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue May 19, 2009 9:29 am

the honorable opposition wrote:{snip}
* Lack of proof of efficacy does not prove a method is ineffective, only that proof is lacking.
http://www.bethesdaphysiocare.com/professionals/pdf/jbmt_lowback_domm04.pdf
An article in the "Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies" that ends with a tautology, that's what I call definitive medical literature. Not.


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