The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

A skeptical look at medical practices
bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:05 pm

Phoenix76 wrote: Pretty obvious that food and nutrition is one of my pet subjects, and I just love to get into debates, and arguments, on the issue. Truth is, very few of the studies done over the years can show much more than association, and quite obliquely some of them. Few have been able to show causation. One study done, I think, by Ancel Keys, was called the Seven Nations Study. Trouble was, he studied around 24 different nations and selected the seven that most closely followed his preconceived ideas. The Mediteranean Diet is another that was a pack of BS. This study was done in the 1950's, still not long after WW11, and the countries were still very short of meat supplies. That should have made the study invalid straight up, but it was published to support a very low meat diet, high in fruit and vegetables etc (Carbs).

Enough of my rantings.

Good on you. One of my fav subjects too..... although not compelling for a variety of reasons. We spend a lot of our time involved with "food." Eating for everyone. Then cooking, growing, etc. I think early school kiddies should get an intro on the subject. So BASIC.... and yet I didn't think of it until my 40's. Food, Sleep, Sex, Finance, Growing Old....so many BASIC subjects that are left to the vagaries of environment. i wonder how much "benefit" could really be experienced with some formal education??

No study can "prove" causation....but that subject has been correlated to death. I thought the deal with the Med Diet was indeed that it changed from what it was right after WW2 and the main import actually was portion size??? I know...boring even hurtful subject.

I think the large cross cultural studies are VERY interesting and COMPELLING about what life styles/diet and exercise provide what results. Put skinny starving Mexicans on a processed food diet and they all get fat and heart disease like the good old Gringo.

I think a religious/spiritual life style based on FOOD would have a lot of rewarding aspects to it.
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Nikki Nyx
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:38 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Nikki said:
I've never refused tasting wild game of any type
. Spot on Nikki. We don't have the range of wild game here in Oz, but certainly Kangaroo, Water Buffalo, Crocodile (very yummy), Rabbits, Emu, haven't gone for snake as yet but would probably try it.
Yep! I forgot I've also tried rabbit, ostrich (farmed, obviously), bison (also farmed), and beaver (probably hunted illegally). All were delicious. My daughter says alligator is good, and my dad has had snake (tastes like chicken...lol).

Phoenix76 wrote:
We are not our ancestors; our genetics and lifestyle are completely different. Eating the way they ate will not provide us with their health.
Quite right Nikki. But one of the Paleo arguments against grain and dairy is that our genetics have not changed sufficiently for our bodies to properly use these foods. Another food group they recommend against are legumes, again suggesting our bodies don't react too kindly to them.
Science would disagree with them there. Lactose intolerance is no longer the norm for humans, but a "disorder." And we certainly have no problem absorbing nutrients from whole milk and milk products.

If the Paleo argument against grain is based on gluten, then I would point out that most grains are gluten-free: rice, corn, oats, quinoa, millet, wild rice...

Lastly, if a Paleo diet person attempted to take away my cheese, yogurt, whole grain crackers, pasta, etc., then I would be forced to go Paleo on him with a club made from a fallen branch. :mrgreen:

Phoenix76 wrote:
Unless you actually have Celiac, are allergic to gluten, or have a metabolic disorder involving gluten, you don't have "gluten intolerance."
Again quite correct. But again one of the arguments for avoiding grains and dairy. With dairy, one of their arguments is that of all the animal world, humans are the only ones that drink milk after we are weaned.
Based on that argument, we should immediately decimate our cities, towns, and rural communities and all build nests in the trees, burrows in the ground, etc...since we are the only animals that build buildings. We should also abandon modern medical care, since we are the only animals that brush our teeth, correct our vision and hearing, inoculate to prevent and medicate to treat illness, etc. We're the only animals that wear artificial clothing too, so that ought to be fun when the snow flies. :roll:

Phoenix76 wrote:
It's commonly said that red meat is "bad for you,"
Another typical lie manifested by the medical and pharma industries and all based on very dubious studies done in the past. Actually red meat is the best source of digestible iron for humans. Our bodies find it very easy to use as compared to vegan alternatives. And the argument about the cholesterol in meat is the greatest lie of all times. Of course it has cholesterol, so do eggs - the greatest little vitamin pill available to us. See, dietary cholesterol has little or no effect on our serum cholesterol. I've had a stand up argument with a Doctor on this issue, and the Doctor was wrong. She obviously was not keeping up on her journals but just listening to vested interests hoping for her to push more of their poisonous drugs.
The vested interests are what keep us ill...never "cured," constantly sick, and forever in need of treatment. Even with multiple diagnoses, I only have two prescriptions (three if you count medical cannabis), because my first question when a prescription is recommended is, "What lifestyle changes would counteract the condition and make this prescription unnecessary?"

For example, I had a brief issue with HBP for which my doc immediately wanted to prescribe a beta blocker. I said, "That's not a good idea given my history." She maintained they were perfectly safe. I said, "I have orthostatic hypotension, fibromyalgia, migraines, depression, and sleep disorders. You want to prescribe a drug that causes low blood pressure, muscle cramps, headaches, increased depression, nightmares, and hallucinations? No. I guarantee you I will get my BP back to normal within six months." And I did...by reducing/dealing with stress, eating smaller meals more frequently, establishing a normal sleep schedule, and emotion regulation. Needless to say, she was impressed. I got the idea that most of her patients are not interested in making changes in their lifestyle, and would rather take the prescription, believing it to be a magic bullet.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:43 pm

Just read there is a new forth type of chocolate: "red". due to hit the market in 6 months.

New food. That is nice.

Regular, milk, and white...... now red.
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Phoenix76
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:04 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Just read there is a new forth type of chocolate: "red". due to hit the market in 6 months.

New food. That is nice.

Regular, milk, and white...... now red.


Already happening here in Oz. In fact was just on the morning show on TV. Trouble is, it appears to be only milk chocolate rather than say 85% cocoa. Haven't had a chance to look at the ingredients. But I'm sure it will be a hit if it isn't too expensive.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:24 am

Nikki said:

I got the idea that most of her patients are not interested in making changes in their lifestyle, and would rather take the prescription, believing it to be a magic bullet.


Perhaps they are interested in changing, Nikki, but it all gets too hard for most people, so it is easier to just take another pill.

As for the Paleo Diet, it really seems to be just a variation of the Atkins Diet which was misinterpreted by many, including doctors etc, though again they probably had a vested interest elsewhere.

I mean, I have no problem with one of the main thrusts of Paleo which is to enjoy meat and good saturated fats whilst getting your carbs from fruit and veg. There is a similar diet called Banting which has originated (at least these days) in South Africa. And here in Oz we have a lady, Christine Cannau(?), who promotes a high fat, low carb diet.

What they all seem to be saying is that you can eat a high fat low carb diet, or a high carb, low fat diet, but not both. It makes sense because your body only needs x amount of energy to operate efficiently. What most don't realize, and the medical industry won't tell you, is that all excess carbs beyond your daily need, are stored in your body cells as fat. So add to those excess carbs a load of high fat foods, and you quickly have an obesity problem. Like many things - too much of a good thing is no longer a good thing.

And as a closing thought. You do not have to ingest any carb whatsoever. Your body will convert other foods into the glucose it needs to operate. As I've said before, it is a fascinating subject.

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:20 am

As always, balance is the key. No idiotic radical diets. As for fats and carbs, both ideas of no fat or no carb are idiotic.

As I said before, one key to good diet is variety. That includes a variety of fats. Not too much of any kind. Also a variety of carbs, though only those with a good admixture of fiber. As the British National Health recommends, at least ten different fruits and vegetables each day. Also a few mixed nuts. Also a variety of animal protein. Though only in moderate amounts.

Milk and milk products are fine. So is gluten for most of us. While those with celiac disease genuinely must avoid gluten, that makes up only 1% of the population. There are people who claim not to have celiac disease, but to have " gluten sensitivity. " That is total bulldust. There is no such thing. But there is another condition that a lot of people mistake for gluten sensitivity. It is called FODMAP sensitivity. The materials that trigger this are found in small amounts in wheat products, and in slightly larger amounts in members of the onion family. If a person can eat half a slice of bread witthout problems, they do not have celiac, and definitely not gluten sensitivity. But if larger amounts, or onions cause problems, they may have FODMAP sensitivity.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:48 am

Lance said:

As always, balance is the key. No idiotic radical diets. As for fats and carbs, both ideas of no fat or no carb are idiotic.


Just to be clear Lance, I said that the body doesn't need you to eat any carbs, I did not say that one should necessarily abstain from either.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I eat a high fat, low carb diet. It appears to suit my metabolism, my genome if you wish, quite well. But importantly, my carbs intake is from fruit and veg. I'm the chief cook in our house and I'm old fashioned. See I still adhere to the good old "meat & three". But that is not always three, it can be four or five.

And that can come in different forms. Like tonight we had curried sausages. That included 2&1/2 sausages each, plus four different veges, and I use coconut cream in my curry. And just for interest sake, the veges were cauliflower, carrots, zucchini and sweet potato.

So please understand that whilst I might prattle on about different diets or diet recommendations, doesn't mean that I follow them or agree with them. But I do enjoy the discussion and debate of different dietary habits. And I especially enjoy researching past and present studies into dietary subjects and then being able to discredit some or all of their claims.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Phoenix

I use coconut cream in curries also, but not too often, since coconut is saturated fat and too much is not good for you. Sausages in our house are venison, low fat varieties. We are not paranoid about saturated fat, and we eat moderate amounts, but not too much. My wife is very fond of white rice, and I disapprove of that since it is pure starch with no nutrients and no fiber. So we eat it, but in smaller amounts. A high fat diet is not healthy. Even if much is polyunsaturated. If nothing else, it is fattening. Balance is always the key.

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:30 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Just read there is a new forth type of chocolate: "red". due to hit the market in 6 months.

New food. That is nice.

Regular, milk, and white...... now red.
Callebaut's process is proprietary, so I couldn't find out even its percentage of cacao, but I did find this statement:
Barry Callebaut, a giant Swiss chocolate producer, has introduced what it describes as a new type of chocolate made from "Ruby" cocoa beans. The company introduced its creation at an event in Shanghai, describing it as naturally red and fruity.

"The fourth type in chocolate offers a totally new taste experience, which is not bitter, milky or sweet, but a tension between berry-fruitiness and luscious smoothness," it said in a statement.
I buy my dark chocolate from Callebaut (70.something % cacao) in 11-pound blocks, then divide them into 1-pound sections and vacuum seal them, storing them in my pantry. I bought the last block in December 2016 and just opened the last section...it's just as perfect as the day I bought it. We've used it for truffles, brownies, hot cocoa, cakes, cookies, candies, chocolate-covered pretzels, etc. It's a beautiful product.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:41 am

Phoenix76 wrote:Nikki said:
I got the idea that most of her patients are not interested in making changes in their lifestyle, and would rather take the prescription, believing it to be a magic bullet.
Perhaps they are interested in changing, Nikki, but it all gets too hard for most people, so it is easier to just take another pill.
Perhaps some are, but there are trends that indicate that a few people are attempting to pretend their medical issues are "normal" and "healthy" and don't require treatment. One of these groups has members who insist it's perfectly healthy to be morbidly obese, and that they don't require medical treatment or lifestyle changes. They group together and attack anyone who disagrees with their deluded belief. I refrain from engaging them, not wishing to push them into heart attacks. But I can't help but wonder what will happen when they start having joint pain; liver, kidney, and pancreas issues; heart disease; diabetes; etc.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Nikki Nyx
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:56 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Phoenix

I use coconut cream in curries also, but not too often, since coconut is saturated fat and too much is not good for you. Sausages in our house are venison, low fat varieties. We are not paranoid about saturated fat, and we eat moderate amounts, but not too much. My wife is very fond of white rice, and I disapprove of that since it is pure starch with no nutrients and no fiber. So we eat it, but in smaller amounts. A high fat diet is not healthy. Even if much is polyunsaturated. If nothing else, it is fattening. Balance is always the key.
I'm considering getting the meat grinder and sausage casing attachments for my Kitchen Aid. For the most part, I find pre-made sausages much too greasy. While I fully admit that a sausage requires fat, I don't believe I should need to pour off the fat multiple times whilst crisping them up in a pan!

If I make my own, I can control the amount of fat, as well as the type of meats and flavor profiles. For example, I'll bet a chicken sausage flavored with ginger root, garlic, scallion, sesame oil, and soy sauce would be delicious. Once the grinding was done, I'd mix in chopped water chestnuts and shredded daikon and carrots by hand. Or a pork tenderloin sausage (to keep it lean) flavored with fresh sage, then mix in chopped Granny Smith apples, onions, walnuts, and dried cranberries. The possibilities are endless.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:56 am

Hmmm, Nikki

Send me some of them sausages. They sound delicious !

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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:04 am

The possibilities are endless and joy for joy: pork shoulder or pork picnic cuts of meat go on sale for one dollar a pound: cheaper than chicken if not on sale as well. Of note...pork shoulder "usually" has the correct meat to fat ratio just as it comes, to vary as you desire per taste. I use a hand crank cast iron grinder available at most thrift stores for $10. Usually make free form patties...why bother with the casings? I hate to fiddle when cooking. My favorite so far has been the garlic apple combo..... makes me want to try for something weird like pineapple mango??????

Of note: take the very same sausage mix and put it thru your food processor and process into a fine paste or mousse or patee. You can add chicken broth and gelatin if you wish. Makes an incredible spread. or dip.
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Nikki Nyx
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Re: The Boring Secrets to Ultimate Health

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:36 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I use a hand crank cast iron grinder available at most thrift stores for $10.
In your estimation, what's the muscle power requirement for the hand-cranked grinder? I always prefer simpler when it comes to gadgets, and have a hand-cranked pasta machine, but I don't want to spend the money if it requires more muscle than I can offer.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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