Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby TJrandom » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:19 pm

Xoup - while I suspect that there was indeed intent - at least to obfuscate, I do agree with your respectful person comment. We all learn here.

Thanks,

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:01 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar

Wiki says sugar is sweet, soluble carbohydrates. So, Nikki, so sorry but you are wrong. You are talking of sucrose, which is just one sugar. The word 'sugar ' is generic and refers to glucose, fructose, sucrose, and others also.
Yeah, Lance, I know that 'sugar' is generic. And I'm not wrong. Saying, "Honey is sugar," is akin to saying, "Earth is water," whilst completely ignoring the 30% of Earth that is not water, but land mass.

I am further not wrong from a health perspective, because it is the manner in which the body processes fructose that is the major issue. Let's review:
• Sucrose = 50% fructose + 50% glucose
• Honey = 38.2% fructose + 31% glucose + 30.8 other ingredients*
*including vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and oligosaccharides

Again, it is the fructose load of the food that matters, especially in the absence of nutrients. (By the way, high-fructose corn syrup is about 65% fructose.) Since honey has the least fructose and does include other nutrients, it's clearly superior in terms of 'added sugar,' especially since it's sweeter, so less is required.

your precious Mayo Clinic (which, according to you, is never wrong about anything) wrote:In both human and animal studies, concentrated fructose loads have been found to decrease adenosine triphosphate content in the liver. This effect may contribute to decreased cellular binding of insulin, possible reduction in the number of insulin receptors, and subsequent insulin resistance. Fructose also increases hepatic de novo lipogenesis and reduces hepatic fatty acid oxidation, both of which can lead to increased accumulation of fat in the liver, which subsequently triggers inflammation and hepatic insulin resistance. Increased hepatic insulin resistance promotes increased insulin secretion from pancreatic β-cells, which can result in progressive β-cell dysfunction. Over time, deterioration in β-cell function can lead to inadequate insulin secretion, compounding fructose-induced inflammation and oxidative stress, and making hepatic insulin resistance worse.

Fructose may also induce peripheral (skeletal muscle) insulin resistance by prompting excessive hepatic free fatty acid production, increased free fatty acid release from very-low density lipoproteins, and intramyocellular lipid accumulation. In addition, fructose can increase hepatic gluconeogenesis, raising serum glucose levels and placing further stress on the pancreatic β-cells.

The net result of excess consumption of added fructose is derangement of both hepatic and systemic metabolism and global insulin resistance. LINK
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:03 am

Did I offend you, Nikki. So sorreee.

No one has said honey is sugar, so that is a strawman. Several of us have said that honey is 80% sugar, which is accurate. Which makes honey bad for your health even if there is a trace of useful nutrients present.

I agree with the Mayo Clinic that fructose is bad for you. So is every other sugar. Even starch is bad for you, since it releases loads of sugars on digestion. What was the point of you mentioning this ?

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:09 am

Honey is sugar. There is a $2.00 word for when a part of the whole is named and meant to represent the whole. Like a pitcher being called "The Arm." Same with Honey. It is what it is. It is sugar.

Not "true".......but more true than "Its not sugar."

Know what I mean?
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:36 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Honey is sugar. There is a $2.00 word for when a part of the whole is named and meant to represent the whole. Like a pitcher being called "The Arm." Same with Honey. It is what it is. It is sugar.

Not "true".......but more true than "Its not sugar."

Know what I mean?


Ridiculous of course, but yes, I do know what you mean. Not that this understanding helps in any meaningful way.

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:48 am

Of course it does. It resolves the Is Honey Sugar conflict.
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:53 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Honey is sugar. There is a $2.00 word for when a part of the whole is named and meant to represent the whole. Like a pitcher being called "The Arm." Same with Honey. It is what it is. It is sugar.

Not "true".......but more true than "Its not sugar."

Know what I mean?


Bobbo, I almost hate to say it :D , but you are quite correct. Maybe it is not the language we should use on a forum such as this. Perhaps we need to maintain some scientific decorum, if you get my drift.

Suppose I should be surprised at the debate that has evolved here, then, maybe not. Whether we are scientists, physicists or whatever, perhaps some threads need to be debated scientifically and using the appropriate jargon. But there should also be room, IMHO, for less scientific language, and room for the occasional sledge, to be taken in fun of course.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but at times I feel some people get quite offended, miffed, put out, and it should not be like that. We should be able to discuss and debate a subject, accept other opinions, especially when they make more sense than our own, but I don't believe that we should be put in a position where we start to take comment personally. Just thinking.

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:01 am

Why Phoenix....dusting off the ashes??

I almost tagged my last post with "They don't call me the Peace Maker for nothing."==>but given half a chance I avoid making personal attacks or even personal references......................................... not to be confused with cold hard contribution analysis that can hit close to the bone.
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:06 am

Honey is honey. Sugar is sugar. Honey is largely made of sugars. That honey is largely made of sugars does not make honey sugar. Simple really, except for people who wish to decieve or confuse.

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:38 am

emPHAsis.
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Austin Harper » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:03 pm

This is the dumbest debate we've had here in a long time.
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:05 pm

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Saying "honey is sugar" is just wrong.
Taken pedantically and literally, you are correct.
Taken from a health viewpoint, I am also correct, based on the fact that honey has less fructose than table sugar, and fructose loading is the health issue with sugar. This is also why HFCS is worse for you than table sugar, because it is higher in fructose than table sugar.
xouper wrote:However, I don't think anyone here meant that to be taken literally.
I disagree. Quite a few people were arguing that all forms of sugar were equally bad, and that is scientifically untrue.
xouper wrote:When one looks at the intent of the writer, it is (or should be) clear that they meant that the chemical composition of honey is predominantly sugar.
The intent of some of the writers was merely to calcify the popular myth that all sugars are equal. Perhaps you should lecture them for their appeals to popularity.
xouper wrote:If there is more than one way to interpret what a person meant, a respectful response would be to ask for clarification, not assume the worst possible interpretation and then argue against that straw man. Some of us are here to have conversations, not confrontations.
My post was not remotely confrontational. Confrontational would have been, "If you think honey is sugar, you're {!#%@} stupid." See the difference? My statement was factual and I backed it up with a scientific study from the Mayo Clinic. Please explain how that is, in any way, confrontational.

Check yourself, xouper; you're being condescending and supercilious again. I don't require lessons in comportment, elocution, or reading comprehension. If you feel it's your place to give lessons on forum propriety, perhaps you might check with Pyrrho and see if he'd like to make you a moderator. You should probably read the forum rules first, though.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:30 pm

Austin Harper wrote:This is the dumbest debate we've had here in a long time.


Apparently, you don't read every thread. :twisted:
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:42 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Did I offend you, Nikki. So sorreee.
Did you offend me by disregarding a scientific study? No. I'm kind of used to you doing that.

Lance Kennedy wrote:No one has said honey is sugar, so that is a strawman. Several of us have said that honey is 80% sugar, which is accurate. Which makes honey bad for your health even if there is a trace of useful nutrients present.
See, this is why you shouldn't have disregarded the study. Perhaps I can rephrase it in terms you can understand.

21 grams of honey has the same sweetness as 13 grams of table sugar. However, because sugar has a higher glycemic index than honey, the glycemic load of the sugar is also higher. "Glycemic load" is the term for a food's affect on your blood sugar. That 13 grams of sugar has a glycemic load of 10, while the 21 grams of honey only has a glycemic load of 7.8. The point is, if you are going to choose an added sugar, honey is superior to table sugar in terms of your health. Apparently, you failed to grasp my point, since you asked:
Lance Kennedy wrote:What was the point of you mentioning this ?
Hopefully, you now have a better understanding.

Oh, and several people said "honey is sugar," including you, Phoenix76, and bobbo. Reread the thread. Then take your straw man and put it away for Halloween.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:42 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Of course it does. It resolves the Is Honey Sugar conflict.
Wasn't this at the root of the Hatfield-McCoy feud? :P
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:27 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Of course it does. It resolves the Is Honey Sugar conflict.
Wasn't this at the root of the Hatfield-McCoy feud? :P

I don't think it was the "root" but it was in the mix because EVERYTHING was. I still have Episode 2 in the three part Kevin Costner movie. I thought it was interesting the families were on opposite sides of the Civil War in a State that was split in its support. The dispute was not over silly issues but very deep seated. They didn't have Skeptic Society back then to hash thru these issues.............

Edit: yes......I did initially laugh. but the humor is over ridden by what I see too much of: people letting past issues destroy their futures. It more than happens all the time, its the very stuff of too many lives. That, and I did miss that Middle part of the most recent movie retelling.
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:28 am

Nikki

You quibble.

Excess sugar is bad for you regardless of what form it takes. Sure, fructose is bad but so is sucrose, glucose, galactose e.g. . If there are differences, they are too minor to argue about. Even pure white starch is very bad for you, since it delivers a glucose hit to the blood. This is related to glycemic load, but glycemic load is a theoretical value and does not always translate into serious harm in the real world. The classic is potatoes, which have a strong theoretical glycemic load, but has not been shown to cause the harm the theory suggests, when real world tests are performed. To suggest that lots of honey is OK is plain irresponsible.

The only source of sugar that is substantially less harmful is that which comes with a load of dietary fiber, such as in raw fruit. The fiber slows the absorption so that it does not create the harmful concentration spike in the blood. Honey, however, has no associated dietary fiber.

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:30 am

Lance: "IS" honey sugar?
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:43 am

HAH!.......I was bending over to pick up a Cheeze-It I had dropped and it came to me:

Synecdoche... a part of something represents the whole or it may use a whole to represent a part. Thats was my use of Honey is sugar. It "is"n't of course, except by way of literary apophenia.
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Lance: "IS" honey sugar?


I am totally aware that this question is rhetorical. However, let me say that honey is sugar to the same extent that a can of red bull is sugar. Both are very bad for us.

Incidentally, the red bull product is owned by a family in Thailand, and they are billionaires on the strength of it. I wonder if they are laughing at us stoopid westerners when they bank their money.

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:50 am

Hey Lance..... I just noticed we are only 3 posts apart in total numbers of postings.

What a weird balance? My directness and your avoiding the point????

Heh, heh. Hatfield and McCoys.
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:17 am

I suspect you will overtake me rather quickly. Not that it matters.

However, I do not avoid the point. It is just that you have a strange way of wording your posts, and I often do not understand that you are making a point. I do suggest trying to be clearer in your communication.

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:59 am

Lance: "IS" Honey sugar?

........now..... be your proclaimed direct responder.
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:01 am

Bobbo

Honey is 80% sugar. What else do you want to know?

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby TJrandom » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:09 am

Sugars, not sugar.

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Phoenix76 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:44 am

Ah, come on TJ, stop being bloody pedantic. You know damn well what we are all saying, and you know what the truth is.

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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:54 pm

Austin Harper wrote:This is the dumbest debate we've had here in a long time.

Ninja'd me!
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Re: Is Sugar really as addictive as Cocaine?

Postby TJrandom » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:05 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Ah, come on TJ, stop being bloody pedantic. You know damn well what we are all saying, and you know what the truth is.


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