Saccades

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Lance Kennedy
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Saccades

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:19 pm

NEW Scientist, 29 July 2017, page 12.

A new word for everyone. I just learned it myself and I am passing it on. Impress your friends.

Saccades are the eye movements that are made at the rate of several every second to flick over the scene in front of you, and which allows the brain to manufacture an image of that scene.

Interestingly, the ear drums have similar movements, which I was unaware of. Middle ear muscles change the orientation of the ear drum to focus on sound from a specific direction. These movements mirror the saccades. The brain seems to tell the ear drums that the eye is looking at something, and to focus on that same thing, so as to detect any sound it might make.

The end result is a model of reality created in part of the brain to pass on information to the rest of our brain. We do not detect the real world. We model it instead, and that model can be fooled by other things going on in the brain , like our expectations. Which is why a glimpse of a light flicker at night can result in someone "seeing " a flying saucer.

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Re: Saccades

Postby gorgeous » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:25 pm

yeahhh right ...flying saucers don't exist.... https://youtu.be/6_3YzyqGb5o
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Saccades

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:41 pm

Definitely not a new word, but, I hear ya, a rarely thought of one. Thanks for saquering it out of obscurity. :-P
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Re: Saccades

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:04 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: Interestingly, the ear drums have similar movements, which I was unaware of. Middle ear muscles change the orientation of the ear drum to focus on sound from a specific direction.


I had an accounting client who researched psycho-acoustics. They somehow could trick ears, by using a phasing trick to give the illusion of a three dimensional sound (front-back / Left-right) out of normal stereo headphones. It was very interesting and it did work, although I don't understand the technical details.

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Re: Saccades

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:37 am

:hmm: That reminds me of stories like these. (I can't say for certain, but Ben might not be the only one known?)
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Re: Saccades

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:28 am

scrmbldggs wrote::hmm: That reminds me of stories like these. (I can't say for certain, but Ben might not be the only one known?)


I think we all have something like this going on and it might be innate.

If you are sitting quietly in a room there is always some sort of ambient noise going on. I think our brains pick up on changes to the room's reverb ( echos) and phasing (the speed the echos bounce back) and that why we get a "gut feeling" someone has entered the room without looking.

My big problem of course is that humans didn't evolve in rooms. We evolved outdoors where there is no echo or reverb. So, I'm not really sure what is going on.
:D

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Re: Saccades

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:37 am

My ancestors could always tell when someone entered their cave, by gut feel.

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Re: Saccades

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:39 am

Growling stomach?
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Re: Saccades

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:40 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::hmm: That reminds me of stories like these. (I can't say for certain, but Ben might not be the only one known?)


I think we all have something like this going on and it might be innate.

If you are sitting quietly in a room there is always some sort of ambient noise going on. I think our brains pick up on changes to the room's reverb ( echos) and phasing (the speed the echos bounce back) and that why we get a "gut feeling" someone has entered the room without looking.

My big problem of course is that humans didn't evolve in rooms. We evolved outdoors where there is no echo or reverb. So, I'm not really sure what is going on.
:D

Try walking outdoors with your eyes closed and make clicking sounds. Seems that's how Ben gets around and "can even determine the difference between a fire hydrant and a trash can." I'd be between a rock and a hard place soon enough... :-P
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Re: Saccades

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:42 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:My ancestors could always tell when someone entered their cave, by gut feel.
It's a weird one isn't it?

I guess the thing to do is to waste a million dollars researching, to see if other animals pick up on audio phase changes. (Unless other animals evolved in rooms and then hid the evidence........I'll ask Gorgeous if this is what happened )
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Re: Saccades

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:44 am

scrmbldggs wrote: Try walking outdoors with your eyes closed and make clicking sounds.
If I get arrested for doing this, I'm going to send you a very nasty letter. :D

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Re: Saccades

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:51 am

In the same ballpark is the correction the brain makes to "cover up" the blind spot in the middle of each eye...where the optic nerve exits the eyeball.
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Re: Saccades

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:56 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:My ancestors could always tell when someone entered their cave, by gut feel.
It's a weird one isn't it?

I guess the thing to do is to waste a million dollars researching, to see if other animals pick up on audio phase changes. (Unless other animals evolved in rooms and then hid the evidence........I'll ask Gorgeous if this is what happened )
:D

Dense enough woods are almost like large rooms. A whole mansion full. :-P
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Re: Saccades

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:56 am

scrmbldggs wrote: Dense enough woods are almost like large rooms. A whole mansion full. :-P
I know what you are doing. You are tricking me, in the name of science, to go walking in a dense forest with my eyes closed.

Here is my new play

Matthew : "Ouch!!"
Matthew : "Jezus that hurt"
Matthew : "Ouch"
Matthew : "OOOOOwwww"
Matthew : "Ooof"
Matthew : "Ouch"
Matthew : "This time I'm really going to write a really nasty letter to scrmblggs"
Matthew : "Ouch"
:D

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Re: Saccades

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:20 am

:lol:

Apparently Aztexan's seen that coming. Here's the next one after #5 on page 16.
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Re: Saccades

Postby Gord » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:35 am

Matt: "Help, help, I'm lost in the woods!"
Gord: "Open yer fecking eyes ye coont."
Matt: "Oh. Thanks. Wait, are you Scottish now?"
Gord: "Nee, ah've jest bin lickin' a sheep."
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Re: Saccades

Postby TJrandom » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote: Try walking outdoors with your eyes closed and make clicking sounds.
If I get arrested for doing this, I'm going to send you a very nasty letter. :D


No, you don`t get points for doing it on one of your nude beaches - hands outstretched.... :roll:

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Re: Saccades

Postby Poodle » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:09 pm

Thanks, Lance - I love new words. Now I'm trying to embed the other three types so I can REALLY bore people at parties. What am I saying - it's years since I went to a party :wah: .

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Re: Saccades

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:46 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The end result is a model of reality created in part of the brain to pass on information to the rest of our brain. We do not detect the real world. We model it instead, and that model can be fooled by other things going on in the brain , like our expectations. Which is why a glimpse of a light flicker at night can result in someone "seeing " a flying saucer.
This is awesome! Thanks for sharing it, Lance. This last part reminds me of something I said to my daughter the other day. Where I sit at my computer, I can hear both the AC and the kitchen exhaust fan. When they're both running simultaneously, the resulting noise sounds like one of my neighbors is mowing the lawn. That is to say, it sounds like a lawnmower heard through closed, double-paned, insulated windows. It's the weirdest thing.

If I move from the computer toward either the AC or the exhaust fan, the noise resolves into the two separate fans. It must be something about the frequencies combining right where I sit, possibly including the fact that I'm sitting between two floor-to-ceiling picture windows that are nearly 9 meters apart (the AC is in the one furthest from me), and glass makes a great reflector for sound.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Saccades

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:23 am

Might that just be wave amplification because at a certain distance the sound-waves of the fans are in sync?
You could test that with a noise detection app for your phone.
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Re: Saccades

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:03 pm

Poodle wrote:Thanks, Lance - I love new words. Now I'm trying to embed the other three types so I can REALLY bore people at parties. What am I saying - it's years since I went to a party :wah: .

"Are you having a photosensitive seizure, or is your saccadal response just excessive?"
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Re: Saccades

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:54 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Might that just be wave amplification because at a certain distance the sound-waves of the fans are in sync?
You could test that with a noise detection app for your phone.

I'm sure you're right. The weirdness is that it sounds to me like a lawnmower, which is probably my brain fitting the resulting sound into my model of the world.
Brain: "What is that sound? *flips through .mp3 clips* Well, it most closely resembles 'lawnmower heard through closed windows,' so I'm going with that."
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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