Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

A skeptical look at medical practices
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Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:03 am

The hepatitis C virus is now one of the world's deadliest killers, ranking above HIV globally. It leads to fatal liver failure or cancer. But there is a drug (sofosbuvir) which is fully effective after a 12 week course of treatment. Sadly, the manufacturer, Gilead, charges about $US 60,000 for that 12 week course. Many people cannot find the money and die. There is an alternative generic form of the same drug, that works equally well, available in India, for $US2,000.

The standard excuse put up by drug companies for high prices is the high cost of developing new drugs. But more often than not, the original development is done by a university or research Institute, and the drug company gets involved only at the clinical trial stage. In other words, that excuse stinks! The real reason for high prices, high enough to prevent dying people from getting life saving drugs, is the profits to be made.

It strikes me that the best way for the first world nation's to throttle this horrible situation is to bypass the drug companies and be prepared to buy drugs in bulk from generic manufacturers, in India or wherever.

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:34 am

It is sooooooo much $$$$....I wonder where it all gets squirreled away? CEO's don't make THAT much---I assume.

Regulation.

.......................... to benefit society................. or the AlreadyTooRich.

Just look.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:59 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:It is sooooooo much $$$$....I wonder where it all gets squirreled away? CEO's don't make THAT much---I assume.

Regulation.

.......................... to benefit society................. or the AlreadyTooRich.

Just look.


It wouldn`t just be he CEOs, with their many 100s X their average workers` pay, but also those in the upper management ranks with pay packets a mere 100x the average worker. What doesn`t get spent gets squirreled away to fund dynasties.

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:26 am

Its still a whole lot of $$$.

I'd pass a law limiting the total multiple of return on a product before the patent became public.

Easy, simple, effective, fair, reasonable.==========>never get passed.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:15 am

I`d just require a cap of 2x the average price of the world-wide distribution - for developed economies.

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:25 am

Tj=====>for Drug Czar!!
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:29 am

Big Pharma is still regularly lobbying government for rules to make their profits even bigger. And there are corrupt politicians who are prepared to create those rules, despite the human cost. For example, the TPP free trade agreement that Trump pulled out of, contained a clause, inserted by American negotiators, to the effect that countries in that agreement had to pay full price for drugs. The 12 members of TPP are now 11, and those 11 do not need to follow that rule.

Another thing that the drug companies regularly push for is an extension to the time that patents remain in force. They have 18 years right now to totally screw the people, and they want more.

My own view is that we should be weakening patent laws for drugs, not strengthening them. We should be increasing competition, not reducing it. If everyone could get the hepatitis C treatment for $US 2,000 instead of $US 60,000 then the drug company would still be making a good profit, but people would live, not die.

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:10 pm

Search for "pharma market access" and read several sources for information on how pricing works.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Cadmusteeth » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:06 pm

I think the first step to choking out those policies is to point out the flaws in them and organize against the drug lobbyists. (Cause they sure as hell won't give it up easily)

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:19 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:The standard excuse put up by drug companies for high prices is the high cost of developing new drugs. But more often than not, the original development is done by a university or research Institute, and the drug company gets involved only at the clinical trial stage.

In the US, the taxpayer generally foots most of that cost. For example...
In one case, the federal government spent $484 million developing the cancer drug Taxol — derived from the bark of Pacific yew trees — and it was marketed under an agreement with Bristol-Myers Squibb starting in 1993. The medical community called it a promising new drug in the fight against ovarian and breast cancer.

Since then, Bristol-Myers Squibb has sold $9 billion worth of Taxol worldwide, according the the General Accounting Office report released today. The National Institutes of Health have received just $35 million in royalties from Bristol-Myers, however.

Bristol did not discover the drug. The federal government did — with taxpayer dollars — and then negotiated a licensing agreement with the pharmaceutical giant.

So, taxpayers footed part of the original bill and now those who use Taxol are paying a second time. The Medicare program alone paid nearly $700 million over a five-year period, to buy a drug the government helped develop.
Taxpayers End Up Funding Drug Companies

A study done by the NIH was fairly damning about industry contribution to R&D of new drugs...
Out of 131 studies, clinical trials and other tests on five best sellers from 1995, the NIH deemed only one industry study as key to a drug's development for use and sale, the report said. The NIH document was designed to examine federal contributions to prescription-drug research. The internal study, obtained by Public Citizen through the Freedom of Information Act, showed that taxpayer-funded scientists and foreign universities conducted 85% of the published research studies, tests and trials leading to the discovery and development of five top-selling drugs.

Zantac costs about $100 for 60 pills. Zovirax costs about $145 for 60 pills. The government also played key roles on developing the hypertension drugs Capoten and its variation, Vasotec, which retail for about $135 for 60 pills, and the antidepressant Prozac, which costs about $75 for 30 pills.

Consumer groups have long blamed drug makers' aggressive marketing for soaring drug prices. Public Citizen also said that drug makers had spent $262 million during the 1999-2000 election, which includes $177 million on lobbying, $65 million on issue ads and $20 million on campaign contributions.
Drug Industry Gets Significant Help From U.S. Taxpayers, Report Says
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:56 pm

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:22 am


That was an informative and mostly balanced article. I say "mostly" only because it didn't address something which I find ethically distasteful: profiting from suffering. That's what drug companies do; they profit from suffering. Their CEOs have 7- and 8-figure salaries, and they have stockholders to please. At the end of the day, they're far more interested in selling their product than they are in what their product actually does, as evidenced by the fact that they spend double on marketing what they spend on R&D. And the federal government supports that goal rather than the goal they should be supporting: patient health.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:53 am

There is also this sort of thing:

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shot ... -at-a-time

Alkermes is open about its basic strategy — influencing legislators and officials to increase sales of Vivitrol.

"We have an entire team of people fanned out across the country working from coast to coast with state and local government officials," said Jeff Harris, the company's government affairs director, at an investor event in September 2016.

In a presentation, Harris described Alkermes' lobbying strategy as "ecosystem development" — raising awareness and promoting policies favorable to Vivitrol. Alkermes has poured money into the political process. In 2010 they spent less than $200,000 on federal lobbying; in 2016 they spent $4.4 million, according to data collected by the Center for Responsive Politics. Alkermes has also been spending aggressively at the state level and has been a generous campaign contributor.


For anyone interested in some of the background for FDA approval:

https://www.fda.gov/AdvisoryCommittees/ ... 232757.htm

Links on that page will give you PDFs of the presentations.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:17 am

LunaNik wrote:I say "mostly" only because it didn't address something which I find ethically distasteful: profiting from suffering. That's what drug companies do; they profit from suffering.

I don't know why your posts bring out the pedantic in me but profit comes from being paid more than a product or service costs to provide. Is this a quibble? Yes..... of course until you really parse the issue out. EG: Big Pharma actually profits from reducing suffering...its fear of and desire to avoid suffering that coughs up the profits. Thats not even a paradox.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:50 am

Bobbo

You are both right. The reason Luna is correct is because Big Pharma makes big profits out of very high prices for its drugs, and those high prices restrict access to that treatment. It is the high prices that increase suffering. Those who can pay those big prices gain effective treatment. But more realistic pricing would alleviate suffering on the larger scale. So Big Pharma pricing actions cause an increase in suffering.

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:56 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: So Big Pharma pricing actions cause an increase in suffering.
Yes===>and from such suffering, they do NOT make a profit. They profit only from SALES that reduces suffering.

Gee Whiz Lance........can't you go back to criticizing me for being witty?
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:12 am

As I said, Bobbo, from your view point, you are correct. But so is Luna. The suffering comes not from the drug, but from the extortionate pricing.

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:26 am

Lance: I REJECT your moral equivalency. You confuse pop culture BS for only one layer deeper analysis. And as usual, you can't follow an arguement: NO ONE SAYS "the suffering comes not from the drug." Its the effect/application of extortionate pricing that the gravamen of the issue lays.

Now.........how do people who need this drug suffer? They suffer from NOT GETTING IT. Not making a sale does not profit the drug companies. so.....drug companies do not profit from the suffering of poor people. Drug companies make profit from those who DO BUY the drugs and gains relief of suffering thereby.

Now Now: how is Luna right except by catchphrase that really doesn't withstand scrutiny?

((In fact: drug companies would make even more money if they were allowed by law to sell their drugs at reduced margins to poor people BUT ITS THE GUBMENT that won't allow discriminating price structures. So.....as is so often the case, its the Gubment protecting society from discrimination that prevents poor people from getting services. Its an upside down world that refuses to recognize inequality. Heh, heh.......I just cracked myself up again.))
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:37 am

Bobbo

There is a myth that new drugs are due to specific pharmaceutical companies. Most of the basic research has leading to that drug is done by other research groups and the companies are permitted to run with their results. The point being that if company A is not making the drug, then company B will be.

If one company, with an exclusive right to a drug, makes it too expensive site for most people to use, and they die from the lack of that drug, then it is the extortionate pricing that kills them. Please do not set yourself up as an apologist for arse holes.

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:45 am

you grok nada.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:03 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I don't know why your posts bring out the pedantic in me

Yeah, it's a little more than just "pedantic." You react to me like I pissed in your Cheerios, and I have no idea why. Maybe you could clear that up for me. I haven't been anything but polite to you, other than biting back when you bite me, because I'm not a doormat.

As for your nitpicking, based on my previous comments in this thread, you know exactly what I mean by "profit from suffering" without my having to add the adverb "excessively." Nor do I notice you holding other skeptics to an exacting standard of being absolutely literal at all times...or correcting them in a patronizing manner when they're not.

So, do us both a favor and figure out the "why." Ok?
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:13 am

Luna: your estimation of my character is too generous.

Nitpicking makes contemplation more exact.

You are welcome.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Luna: your estimation of my character is too generous.

So you're gratuitously being a conceptual penis?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nitpicking makes contemplation more exact.

Yet you mostly don't do it to anyone except me.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are welcome.

Here in this forum? Or are you prematurely ejaculating in expectation of gratitude? To quote a sometimes wise man, "Nitpicking makes contemplation more exact."
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:57 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:one layer deeper analysis.

Drug companies make profit from those who DO BUY the drugs and gains relief of suffering thereby.


If BP sells one dose for $10k, but they could sell 5 doses at $2K and still make a profit, then they are contributing to suffering.


((In fact: drug companies would make even more money if they were allowed by law to sell their drugs at reduced margins to poor people BUT ITS THE GUBMENT that won't allow discriminating price structures. So.....as is so often the case, its the Gubment protecting society from discrimination that prevents poor people from getting services. Its an upside down world that refuses to recognize inequality. Heh, heh.......I just cracked myself up again.))


You would see the costs of drugs come down a {!#%@} if patents expired as soon as 2 x (development cost to the company) was recovered, instead of some length of time. Companies would still be profitable, too. Guv does have a hand in the high cost, but not the only one.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Gord » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:37 am

LunaNik wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nitpicking makes contemplation more exact.

Yet you mostly don't do it to anyone except me.

Image

It's not you. He does that. :P
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:28 pm

Gord wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nitpicking makes contemplation more exact.

Yet you mostly don't do it to anyone except me.

Image

It's not you. He does that. :P

Well, I did say "mostly," so perhaps it's just more to me, then. However, turnabout is fair play.
LunaNik wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are welcome.

Here in this forum? Or are you prematurely ejaculating in expectation of gratitude? To quote a sometimes wise man, "Nitpicking makes contemplation more exact."
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:06 pm

GORD!!!!

Nice Trump reference.

Luna: how many threads of mine have you reviewed? My most insightful comment to you was that "you are too generous" (which was very polite and respectful) but you have to be less focused on "yourself" to see it.

Usually takes me a few months before I go all ab hominem and that usually with provocation of equal dignity.

Yes, its words on the Page that drive the comments. There they are....open to all to see whereas our private selves are wrapped in all kinds of ............ foibles?
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Luna: how many threads of mine have you reviewed?
One moment while I check the database I've devised to keep track of such things. :glare:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:My most insightful comment to you was that "you are too generous" (which was very polite and respectful) but you have to be less focused on "yourself" to see it.
It was very polite toward me, but implied that my opinion of you is better than yours is of yourself. With all due respect, I think you underestimate your character.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Usually takes me a few months before I go all ab hominem and that usually with provocation of equal dignity.
I don't provoke others in that manner. I'm not at all interested in attacking people; I'm interested in discussing ideas.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes, its words on the Page that drive the comments. There they are....open to all to see whereas our private selves are wrapped in all kinds of ............ foibles?
Naturally. However, your nitpicking seems to be based on a desire to avoid ambiguity, yet your own comments include pronouns without referents, vagueness that is..........deliberate, and other devices intended to blur your intended meaning. Interesting. I look forward to future discussions with you. Perhaps your nitpicking will improve my expression of ideas. :nyaah:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:07 am

If I were interested in "personalities" I would check the thread with Gnostic Bishop, seems to me you did more than correct his basic bias--but I could be wrong as I don't pay attention to insults beyond the much favored word play....and maybe wonder why you used ejaculate rather than gesticulate for exploration of early social intercourse???

Ha, ha.......actually.......I love dissecting personalities........but I take longer than you do to form such questions. You've picked up on my strategic approach with precision. That is rewarding for me..... so thank you. Normally, when I rag on people they think I'm just ((add only==I almost used both, but absent this comment..not worth over emphasizing?)) being unpleasant.

Imagine that.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Gord » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:02 am

LunaNik wrote:
Gord wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nitpicking makes contemplation more exact.

Yet you mostly don't do it to anyone except me.

Image

It's not you. He does that. :P

Well, I did say "mostly," so perhaps it's just more to me, then....

Is that like when Trump says, "Never has there been a president, with few exceptions … who has passed more legislation, done more things"? :P
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:....and maybe wonder why you used ejaculate rather than gesticulate for exploration of early social intercourse???

Solely for the descriptive parallel...I couldn't resist the wordplay. :wgrin:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ha, ha.......actually.......I love dissecting personalities........but I take longer than you do to form such questions. You've picked up on my strategic approach with precision. That is rewarding for me..... so thank you. Normally, when I rag on people they think I'm just ((add only==I almost used both, but absent this comment..not worth over emphasizing?)) being unpleasant.

I didn't think you were being gratuitously unpleasant, but I wasn't certain of your motives, so I decided to poke you. Image Generally, I agree with most of your viewpoints, and I appreciate your ability to express them succinctly. I tend to over-explain myself, if anything, and end up editing my posts to death to avoid novelization. :actor:

You're welcome, and thank you again! I agree this was rewarding.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:55 am

Gord wrote:Is that like when Trump says, "Never has there been a president, with few exceptions … who has passed more legislation, done more things"? :P

Ugh. Please don't compare me to that troglodyte, or we might have to have words. :duel: I realize that I'm American, but that's not an excuse, Gord. :nyaah: I am not a member of the Illiterati.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Gord » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:38 am

Ah, but a troglodyte is actually a cave dweller.

Image

Trump is more of a tower dweller.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:50 pm

We need more novelizations. One of my favorites: "We all have a great novel within us: the story of our own lives." Not true of course, but it moves things along. In that vein:

LunaNik wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:....and maybe wonder why you used ejaculate rather than gesticulate for exploration of early social intercourse???

Solely for the descriptive parallel...I couldn't resist the wordplay. :wgrin:

I love word play. I love parallel constructions. I miss what you are paralleling though. I can take the word play in many directions, but not parallel. What are you thinking of?

LunaNik wrote: I didn't think you were being gratuitously unpleasant, but I wasn't certain of your motives, so I decided to poke you. Image

Do you regularly poke people who are being gratuitously pleasant? That would certainly tighten up your circle of friends. Pissing in cheerios, biting you, not a doormat, nitpicking, not holding other skeptics, patronizing, condescending.......quite an armamentarium in response for someone not being unpleasant?

LunaNik wrote:but I wasn't certain of your motives, so I decided to poke you.

Just the motive and time to wait and see? Or ask a question??

.................or not.

LunaNik wrote:[Generally, I agree with most of your viewpoints,

....but most of my viewpoints were about YOU.


LunaNik wrote:You're welcome, and thank you again! I agree this was rewarding.

Rarely do my associations not start out rewarding.........and rarely do they end not just the opposite. Life is like that.

Novelization: takes a lot of rewrites.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:46 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:....and maybe wonder why you used ejaculate rather than gesticulate for exploration of early social intercourse???

Solely for the descriptive parallel...I couldn't resist the wordplay. :wgrin:

I love word play. I love parallel constructions. I miss what you are paralleling though. I can take the word play in many directions, but not parallel.
Sure you can. Analogies are parallel constructions. Look at it again:
bobbo: "You are welcome."
Nikki: "Here in this forum? Or are you prematurely ejaculating in expectation of gratitude?"

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
LunaNik wrote: I didn't think you were being gratuitously unpleasant, but I wasn't certain of your motives, so I decided to poke you.

Do you regularly poke people who are being gratuitously pleasant? That would certainly tighten up your circle of friends. Pissing in cheerios, biting you, not a doormat, nitpicking, not holding other skeptics, patronizing, condescending.......quite an armamentarium in response for someone not being unpleasant?
I expressed myself clearly. I perceived your comments as unpleasant; I didn't think you were being gratuitously unpleasant. If the second case were true, the unpleasantness would have been consistent. Hence, the poking. I'm not blessed with great social skills, and I'm aware that people do sometimes instantly dislike others, because I've seen it happen throughout my life. At the same time, when a situation provokes a negative emotion in me, I like to know why.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
LunaNik wrote:Generally, I agree with most of your viewpoints,

....but most of my viewpoints were about YOU.
Again, I expressed myself clearly. Generally, most of your viewpoints across the forum are not about me, although I even agree with a few of those.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
LunaNik wrote:You're welcome, and thank you again! I agree this was rewarding.

Rarely do my associations not start out rewarding.........and rarely do they end not just the opposite. Life is like that.
Indeed it is.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Novelization: takes a lot of rewrites.
Yes, and a damn good editor.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:53 pm

Gord wrote:Ah, but a troglodyte is actually a cave dweller.

Image

Trump is more of a tower dweller.

Only physically, Gord. Mentally, I maintain my description is spot on:
"a person who is regarded as being deliberately ignorant"
Would you prefer "ignoramus?" :wgrin:
Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:56 pm

LN: good on you then. I did not notice the Nikki post.

Negative feelings./// Compartmentalization is a very healthy technique especially when employed on purpose...and never to excess. Meaning: put the negative feelings in a box and don't think about them unless they continue. Life is short. We rarely squeeze all the joy out of the good experiences.

Are you averring you reviewed my posts across the forum before posting....and yet still had doubts I was not singling you out but rather acting according to form? Yes, the language is clear, the process is not.

............and here I am, dithering on about things all personal. I prefer discussing what is right in front of us....our posts...or what can be googled. Delving into our psyche's.....no couch around.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Negative feelings./// Compartmentalization is a very healthy technique especially when employed on purpose...and never to excess. Meaning: put the negative feelings in a box and don't think about them unless they continue. Life is short. We rarely squeeze all the joy out of the good experiences.
Spot on. It's rare for me to feel offended on my own behalf, although I'm frequently offended on behalf of others or by what I perceive to be injustice. (Notice how carefully I worded that last.) When I find myself offended on my own behalf, it behooves me to discover the source. Being a level-headed person, I don't find slander offensive; I just ignore it or retaliate, as the mood takes me. So, if I'm offended, there must be some measure of truth—however small—in what's being said. It's worth rooting it out, IMO. I prefer to face my demons, even if it's necessary to drag them, kicking and screaming, into the light. I'm perfectly aware that I can be absolute bitch when I want to. :wgrin: People who refuse to admit that about themselves aren't mentally-healthy, IMO.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Are you averring you reviewed my posts across the forum before posting....and yet still had doubts I was not singling you out but rather acting according to form? Yes, the language is clear, the process is not.
No, not in that way. I meant that, in general, I agree with the viewpoints you express across a wide variety of subjects. Prior to starting this particular discussion, I had not noticed you nitpicking others' posts with anything like the frequency that you were doing to mine. However, I don't discount perceptual bias on my part.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:............and here I am, dithering on about things all personal. I prefer discussing what is right in front of us....our posts...or what can be googled. Delving into our psyche's.....no couch around.
Personally, I've never achieved enlightenment allowing others to delve into my psyche, except as the assist to my own goal, if you will. I'm the only one who can live inside my head, so if I don't take another's observation and honestly see whether it fits, then the observation in and of itself isn't helpful.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:40 pm

LN: How can compartmentalization be Spot On when you thereafter go into detail about just the opposite? The goal vs the performance?

Nitpicking subsumed by outright negation? Thats kinda technical?

Its true, you have to recognize a truth or technique, with as much benefit from recognizing what doesn't fit as what does, and apply and internalize it. I had little to no experience in things psyche until one 36 hour period I was trapped in the Int'l Airport in Bangkok due to weather and the only thing to do was read the paperbacks on display outside a closed up airport store. Good selection of self help books. Road Less Traveled, I'm OK, Wayne Dyer. Each had a paragraph or two of worth. An idea to think about. Some Buddhist notions too. Learning how to think/feel more positively/focused/to your better self....its time well spent, making a better person.

So how come meditation seems like a waste of time? We could be DOING something. I blame John Calvin and the Western Experience.
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Re: Big Pharma and the mighty dollar.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:LN: How can compartmentalization be Spot On when you thereafter go into detail about just the opposite? The goal vs the performance?
Did not.
Perceived offense = slander or not-slander?
If slander, then ignore or retaliate. If not-slander, then examine statement for truth.
Compartmentalization.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nitpicking subsumed by outright negation? Thats kinda technical?
That's not what I said.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Its true, you have to recognize a truth or technique, with as much benefit from recognizing what doesn't fit as what does, and apply and internalize it. I had little to no experience in things psyche until one 36 hour period I was trapped in the Int'l Airport in Bangkok due to weather and the only thing to do was read the paperbacks on display outside a closed up airport store. Good selection of self help books. Road Less Traveled, I'm OK, Wayne Dyer. Each had a paragraph or two of worth. An idea to think about. Some Buddhist notions too. Learning how to think/feel more positively/focused/to your better self....its time well spent, making a better person.
I agree it's time well-spent, although definitions of "making a better person" vary widely from person to person. Quite a few people believe that going to church in and of itself makes them a better person, and I would disagree.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So how come meditation seems like a waste of time? We could be DOING something. I blame John Calvin and the Western Experience.
Because "waste of time" is subjective, of course. I like football, but I think spending three hours on Sunday to watch 11 minutes of actual gameplay is a waste of time (unless there are friends, beer, and fried food involved). But I'll reread a book I've already read five times for the sheer enjoyment of the story.

I'll bet Calvin would have considered meditation a waste of time, but prayer indispensable.
Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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