Helthcare a Privelij

A skeptical look at medical practices
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:11 am

Gord wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:2. I don't like the word capitalism and all that it has come to imply- the MIC, welfare for the rich, and so on.
Smith didn't use the word "capitalism." It wasn't invented by Marx until around 100 years later.

2. Actually, Marx did not invent the term as we now use it. French socialist Louis Blanc did, defining it as "the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others." Anarchist and founder of mutualism, Pierre-Joseph Proudhom, further defined it as an ideology: "Economic and social regime in which capital, the source of income, does not generally belong to those who make it work through their labour."

Lemme just sliiiiide this right in here: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=capitalist

capitalist (n.)

1791, "man of money," from French capitaliste, a coinage of the Revolution and a term of reproach; see capital (n.1) + -ist....



Besides Republicans, Obama, Pelosi, Clinton, Sanders, many other Democratic apparatchiks and so-called "liberal" commentators haven't taken vows of poverty, and qualify as millionaire "men of money."

Do you have any problem with that? If not, why not?
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:08 am

Is that addressed to me or to Gord?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby JO 753 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:40 am

Tom Palven wrote:Pleeze pay attenshun.


Sorry. I wuz too sleepy.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Gord » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:51 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:2. I don't like the word capitalism and all that it has come to imply- the MIC, welfare for the rich, and so on.
Smith didn't use the word "capitalism." It wasn't invented by Marx until around 100 years later.

2. Actually, Marx did not invent the term as we now use it. French socialist Louis Blanc did, defining it as "the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others." Anarchist and founder of mutualism, Pierre-Joseph Proudhom, further defined it as an ideology: "Economic and social regime in which capital, the source of income, does not generally belong to those who make it work through their labour."

Lemme just sliiiiide this right in here: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=capitalist

capitalist (n.)

1791, "man of money," from French capitaliste, a coinage of the Revolution and a term of reproach; see capital (n.1) + -ist....

Besides Republicans, Obama, Pelosi, Clinton, Sanders, many other Democratic apparatchiks and so-called "liberal" commentators haven't taken vows of poverty, and qualify as millionaire "men of money."

Do you have any problem with that? If not, why not?

Da fuq? :|

I have never asked any apparatchicks to take vows of poverty. I have never asked any holy monks to take vows of poverty. Are you having a stroke or something?
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:12 am

Gord wrote:Da fuq? :|




"Don't "liberals" in Congress support the crony-capitalist MIC sacred cows as much as conservatives do, investing in them and angling for campaign contributions from them?

By your own definition isn't Nancy Pelosi with a net worth of $26 million a capitalist?

Even Sanders said he would not end the CIA droning program that apparently attempts to murder any emerging leader in the Mid-East over the age of twelve who is not on its payroll "because it protects our boys and girls in uniform" or some BS like that.

If you're going to slide the definition of capitalist in here, why not tell us who a few of them are? Certainly not me as Nikki implied.

Even Sanders with $4 million is a hellava lot more of a capitalist and crony-capitalist sympathizer than I am. He talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.

Barack Obama said that some people have too much money. He now reportedly has $40 million with big book deals in the offing.

Maybe if he can just get to $10 zillion he will have a lot more to give to the deserving poor?

What is the rationale?

You've offered some cryptic comments here, in the Associated Press thread, and in the Rachel Maddow thread, but how about fleshing things out a little?
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:03 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Don't "liberals" in Congress support the crony-capitalist MIC sacred cows as much as conservatives do, investing in them and angling for campaign contributions from them?
Classic liberalism includes support of free markets. Most Democrats in Congress follow neoliberalism, which includes support of unregulated markets.

Tom Palven wrote:By your own definition isn't Nancy Pelosi with a net worth of $26 million a capitalist?
Yes, and she's also an unapologetic neoliberal. I would never vote for her.

Tom Palven wrote:Even Sanders said he would not end the CIA droning program that apparently attempts to murder any emerging leader in the Mid-East over the age of twelve who is not on its payroll "because it protects our boys and girls in uniform" or some BS like that.
That's not even close to what he said.
In an interview on ABC’s “This Week with George Stephanopoulos,” Sanders indicated that he would limit the use of drones so that they do not end up killing innocent people abroad, but declined to say that he would end the targeted killing campaign completely.

“I think we have to use drones very, very selectively and effectively. That has not always been the case,” Sanders said.

“What you can argue is that there are times and places where drone attacks have been effective,” he added.

“There are times and places where they have been absolutely counter-effective and have caused more problems than they have solved. When you kill innocent people, what the end result is that people in the region become anti-American who otherwise would not have been.”
LINK


Tom Palven wrote:If you're going to slide the definition of capitalist in here, why not tell us who a few of them are? Certainly not me as Nikki implied.
If you support unregulated markets, then you're a capitalist. You have stated that, in economics, you admire Murray Rothbard. He was a self-proclaimed anarcho-capitalist.

Tom Palven wrote:Even Sanders with $4 million is a hellava lot more of a capitalist and crony-capitalist sympathizer than I am. He talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
Disagree, based on his quarter-century of legislation as Representative and Senator, none of which benefitted the MIC, the financial sector, or himself. Also, I have no idea where you're getting the $4 million figure, but it's seriously inflated. Sanders' net worth is about $800G, including his residences.

Tom Palven wrote:Barack Obama said that some people have too much money. He now reportedly has $40 million with big book deals in the offing.
He's another neoliberal; the longer he was President, the more to the right he moved.

Tom Palven wrote:What is the rationale?
You're apparently expecting politicians to behave based on the letter that's displayed after their name, but there's relatively little difference between the parties at this point. Take a look at this chart, which uses two ideological axes instead of the usual one. The x-axis represents economics: communism to the left, capitalism to the right. The y-axis represents government intervention: authoritarianism at the top, anarchism at the bottom. Check out where the major party candidates are...all clustered together.
Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:42 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Even Sanders said he would not end the CIA droning program that apparently attempts to murder any emerging leader in the Mid-East over the age of twelve who is not on its payroll "because it protects our boys and girls in uniform" or some BS like that.
That's not even close to what he said.
[color=#800080]In an interview on ABC’s “This Week with George Stephanopoulos,” Sanders indicated that he would limit the use of drones so that they do not end up killing innocent people abroad, but declined to say that he would end the targeted killing campaign completely.

“I think we have to use drones very, very selectively and effectively. That has not always been the case,” Sanders said.

“What you can argue is that there are times and places where drone attacks have been effective,” he added.


Sanders minced his words, but that's exactly what he said, that he would not end the drone strikes.

There is no individualist on your political chart which probably shouldn't be surprising. Just to enter into politics you have to suck up to various groups and suppress both your individuality and your sense of humor, and act the part of Serious Do-Gooder.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:03 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Sanders minced his words, but that's exactly what he said, that he would not end the drone strikes.
You seem to be intellectually unable to see anything but extremes on any issue. Everything is black and white to you. In all your posts, an idea is either 100% good or 100% bad. Do you apply this impossible purity test to everything and everyone in your life?

Tom Palven wrote:There is no individualist on your political chart which probably shouldn't be surprising. Just to enter into politics you have to suck up to various groups and suppress both your individuality and your sense of humor, and act the part of Serious Do-Gooder.
Note that the only ones on major party tickets are all clustered in the top righthand corner. All authoritarians...and all capitalists. Yet people argued in 2012 that there was a difference between Obama and Romney. Only of minor degrees. Very minor.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Gord » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:47 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:Da fuq? :|




"Don't "liberals" in Congress support the crony-capitalist MIC sacred cows as much as conservatives do, investing in them and angling for campaign contributions from them?

By your own definition isn't Nancy Pelosi with a net worth of $26 million a capitalist?

Even Sanders said he would not end the CIA droning program that apparently attempts to murder any emerging leader in the Mid-East over the age of twelve who is not on its payroll "because it protects our boys and girls in uniform" or some BS like that.

If you're going to slide the definition of capitalist in here, why not tell us who a few of them are? Certainly not me as Nikki implied.

Even Sanders with $4 million is a hellava lot more of a capitalist and crony-capitalist sympathizer than I am. He talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.

Barack Obama said that some people have too much money. He now reportedly has $40 million with big book deals in the offing.

Maybe if he can just get to $10 zillion he will have a lot more to give to the deserving poor?

What is the rationale?

You've offered some cryptic comments here, in the Associated Press thread, and in the Rachel Maddow thread, but how about fleshing things out a little?

Hi, my name's Gord. You seem to be talking to me, but I have no idea what it is you're trying to say.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:59 pm

Gord wrote:Hi, my name's Gord. You seem to be talking to me, but I have no idea what it is you're trying to say.

https://youtu.be/Skwgk9duVaU
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Flash » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:28 am

Gord wrote:
Hi, my name's Gord. You seem to be talking to me, but I have no idea what it is you're trying to say.

I recommend learning English and taking your earplugs out. Not necessarily in this order.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Gord » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:38 am

Flash wrote:Gord wrote:
Hi, my name's Gord. You seem to be talking to me, but I have no idea what it is you're trying to say.

I recommend learning English and taking your earplugs out. Not necessarily in this order.

Ah, sprechen sie Deutsch?
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:17 am

Tom Palven wrote: What is the rationale?
Tom? I don't think you are an anarchist and I assume you have an alternative political system to promote. What exactly is that?

It is sensible to criticise one's own political system, but generally you need to suggest improvements or remedies. Do you have any suggestions?

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:42 am

I don`t know there... I think that Tom is stuck on his HS cheerleader team, with that old chant....

How do you spell freedom? Give me an A.... Give me an N.... Give me an A.... Give me an R.... Give me a C...

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:24 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: What is the rationale?
Tom? I don't think you are an anarchist and I assume you have an alternative political system to promote. What exactly is that?

It is sensible to criticise one's own political system, but generally you need to suggest improvements or remedies. Do you have any suggestions?


Today the word "anarchist" in common usage is associated with people who like to throw rocks through windows at G-8 meetings, and you are correct that I don't endorse that, and that's why I call myself an individualist rather than an anarchist.

The alternative system that I would like to see tried is the one proposed by Professor David Friedman, the son of Rose and Milton Friedman, which is outlined in his book The Machinery of Freedom: A Guide to Radical Capitalism
https://www.amazon.com/Machinery-Freedo ... d+friedman

It's unfortunate imho that Dr. Friedman used the word "capitalism," because like "anarchism" the word has shifted in meaning and now is most closely associated with the crony capitalism of such things as the MIC and Big Pharma rather than free enterprise.

But, in any case, Dr. Friedman outlines a non-coercive system of social organization based on voluntary cooperation rather than government force, and even addresses the difficult subjects of nongovernmental judicial systems (organized along the lines of private insurance) and air and water pollution.

His suggestions go in exactly the opposite direction to the path that the US is taking today toward more militarization of police, expanded wars abroad, more funding for the MIC and for the "War on Drugs," and so on.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:09 am

[quote="Tom Palven"]The alternative system that I would like to see tried is the one proposed by Professor David Friedman, the son of Rose and Milton Friedman, which is outlined in his book The Machinery of Freedom: A Guide to Radical Capitalism
https://www.amazon.com/Machinery-Freedo ... d+friedman

Review
This book argues for a society organized by voluntary cooperation under institutions of private property and exchange with little, ultimately no, government. It describes how the most fundamental functions of government might be replaced by private institutions, with services such as protecting individual rights and settling disputes provided by private firms in a competitive market.

I"ll have to read the book. A couple of alarm bells went off in my head, but I need to read the book to answer those questions. I frankly, can't see how courts can be private.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:The alternative system that I would like to see tried is the one proposed by Professor David Friedman, the son of Rose and Milton Friedman, which is outlined in his book The Machinery of Freedom: A Guide to Radical Capitalism
https://www.amazon.com/Machinery-Freedo ... d+friedman

Review
This book argues for a society organized by voluntary cooperation under institutions of private property and exchange with little, ultimately no, government. It describes how the most fundamental functions of government might be replaced by private institutions, with services such as protecting individual rights and settling disputes provided by private firms in a competitive market.

I"ll have to read the book. A couple of alarm bells went off in my head, but I need to read the book to answer those questions. I frankly, can't see how courts can be private.


We actually have private courts in Japan, and have had them since the days of free samurai. Free samurai came about because their lords couldn`t feed them in times of famine and also due to the rise of the merchant class (the robber barons). They are called the Yakuza (mafia). To obtain `justice` one only needed to pay for a little justice - like killing ones opponents, etc. A great system, if only you had/have the funds to purchase their services.

In the past, the US had its version too – called vigilantes.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:33 am

There is nothing new or radical about the system Tom proposes. It has been explored in literature numerous times, and the drawbacks well elucidated. Basically, if you make everything voluntary, the arseholes take over. No one with a modicum of sanity would suggest it actually be tried.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:40 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:There is nothing new or radical about the system Tom proposes... No one with a modicum of sanity would suggest it actually be tried.


"The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." -- Mark Twain
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quot ... 53863.html
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:29 pm

Good that we don`t consider you to be an adversary then... a bit deluded on this, but probably just due to wishful thinking, and not full blown insanity. ;)

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:37 pm

This book argues for a society organized by voluntary cooperation under institutions of private property and exchange with little, ultimately no, government. It describes how the most fundamental functions of government might be replaced by private institutions, with services such as protecting individual rights and settling disputes provided by private firms in a competitive market.

Sounds like "government" to me. Fractured to the point of being wholly ineffective.

You got to watch those egg head economists. they think they know something, but they don't know {!#%@}.

"Who knew the stock market would be infested by short term self interest and fraud?"===>anyone with a lick of sense......aka....not an economist.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:51 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
This book argues for a society organized by voluntary cooperation under institutions of private property and exchange with little, ultimately no, government. It describes how the most fundamental functions of government might be replaced by private institutions, with services such as protecting individual rights and settling disputes provided by private firms in a competitive market.

Sounds like "government" to me.


The key word is "voluntary."

Voluntary cooperation.

Draft boards would be abolished and no one could be drafted to fight wars they choose not to fight. No one would be involuntarily taxed to destroy the Mid-East or jailed for victimless crimes.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:04 pm

TP==sounds like pure fantasy BS to me. Why not you, or are you just saying?

Voluntary. So, what happens when in a voluntary organization someone gets a situation they don't agree with and they go rogue? Is what happens to that person next still voluntary?
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:42 pm

If you give people the choice, for example to pay taxes, they will do the selfish thing. Purely voluntary systems do not work. Simple as that.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:44 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TP==sounds like pure fantasy BS to me. Why not you, or are you just saying?

Voluntary. So, what happens when in a voluntary organization someone gets a situation they don't agree with and they go rogue? Is what happens to that person next still voluntary?


It's a longer explanation than "Soak the Rich!" which is good enough for Sanders supporters.

If you're not a Sanders supporter read the book.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:49 pm

TP--anything actually understood can be expressed in a sentence or two. No...I will not read the book. I do support Sanders although as he never rose to first place, no detailed report of all his positions is known to me. I accept his failure on gun control as political opportunism/necessity.... and I do assume his wifely defrauded the educational funding system in Vermont. We all have feet of clay.

Soak the Rich is an interesting phrase as in essence the reality goes the other way around, but by and large the AlreadyTooRich have captured most of the language in social discourse.

Voluntary................................... NOTHING is.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:08 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:If you give people the choice, for example to pay taxes, they will do the selfish thing. Purely voluntary systems do not work. Simple as that.
I agree with you. Under any proposed economic scenario, from radical left, to absolute laissez-faire capitalism, you always have one constant : Humans with their bad human behaviour. In my mind any pragmatic workable economic plan must be fluid and ever changing, so the majority of humans can keeps the bad parts of human behaviour under control. That means the "rules" must always keep changing slightly. :D

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:...you always have one constant : Humans with their bad human behaviour.


There are people who lie and cheat and steal, and a lot of them seem to go into politics.

In his 1759 work The Theory of Moral Sentiments, which Scots philosophy professor Adam Smith thought was more important than On the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations 1776, he opined that most undamaged people are basically inclined to be benevolent, or, as Mandy Patinkin (Inego Montoya in The Princess Bride puts it:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ma ... &FORM=VIRE
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:...you always have one constant : Humans with their bad human behaviour.


There are people who lie and cheat and steal, and a lot of them seem to go into politics, but they are probably exceptions to general human nature.

In his 1759 work The Theory of Moral Sentiments, which Scots philosophy professor Adam Smith thought was more important than On the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, 1776, he opined that most undamaged people are basically inclined to be benevolent, and have some sort of conscience.

As Mandy Patinkin (Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride) puts it:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ma ... &FORM=VIRE
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:51 am

Hoomans do express their natures variously.

The good honest salt of the earth shun politics and live in anonymity to raise good decent happy families.

The corrupt liars and cheaters go into bizness, high finance, politics and war. We sing songs and admire and respect and wish to emulate this group.....regardless of which group we are in our selves. Only a few exceptions either way.

Hence: the Republican Party and their deplorable base.

Oh that we could each live in a world isolated to our own desires.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:22 am

Tom Palven wrote:... he opined that most undamaged people are basically inclined to be benevolent, and have some sort of conscience.


I agree with that. But most people are not the ones you need to worry about - rather the few that would run amok if it were not for a strong regulatory environment.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:19 am

Surveys show that approximately 3% of the population are full blown psychopaths, meaning they will do anything at all to benefit themselves, regardless of how much harm it does to others, as long as they can get away with it. I suspect that this percentage is much higher among politicians and upper echelon business executives.

In addition, those surveys show an additional 5 to 10% who appreciate right and wrong, and still choose to do what is wrong if it benefits themselves. They are not psychopaths, and do draw the line at extreme harm to others, but are nevertheless total arseholes.

With everything voluntary, and no legal recourse, those people would have a ball, and cheat the system without limit.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:45 am

Oh they're having a ball alright right now - and for quite a few months already...
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:51 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:...you always have one constant : Humans with their bad human behaviour.
Tom Palven wrote:There are people who lie and cheat and steal, and a lot of them seem to go into politics.
That's not the problem. It is not just some people. It is all people and their innate and conscious bad behaviour. I've read a lot of books on organisational psychology and there are a lot of "behaviours" that you simply can't separate from humans.

I don't like capitalism, but it seems to be the scenario, which works best, with humans in the mix. Therefore I go with capitalism leaning towards socialism, where bad humans are prosecuted equally and taxation squeezes out class distinctions.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: It is not just some people. It is all people and their innate and conscious bad behaviour. I've read a lot of books on organisational psychology and there are a lot of "behaviours" that you simply can't separate from humans.

I disagree and doubt you could provide any link to such a notion. Like any other "characteristic" whatever you think of as bad behavior or good behavior will fall on a curve or continuum. Highly influenced both by nature and by environment.

Matthew Ellard wrote: I don't like capitalism, but it seems to be the scenario, which works best, with humans in the mix. Therefore I go with capitalism leaning towards socialism, where bad humans are prosecuted equally and taxation squeezes out class distinctions. [/color]

Capitalism is a broad concept: kinda like falling on a curve or continuum? ha, ha. Same with socialism. Its all: definitional. Lots of issues involved. How wealth is created vs how it is distributed? I see no reason at all for not having some kind of maximum multiple for top management/shareholders compared with average working staff. I see no reason not to have capital gains taxed at a higher rate than active work. Death taxes... of course. And on and on. Its mostly about taxation and distribution rather than evils of capitalism other than the extremist "laissez-faire" variety.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Flash » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:51 am

Bad Hoomans

images (3).jpg
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:25 am

Dots. Salomed! Dots!!
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:08 am

Flash wrote:Bad Hoomans

images (3).jpg


old joke:

two planets meet.
Says the first: "How are you?"
Answers the second:" Terrible, I got Humans."
Replies the first: "Don't worry, I had that once - you'll get over it quickly."
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:59 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:...you always have one constant : Humans with their bad human behaviour.
that most undamaged people are basically inclined to be benevolent, and have some sort of conscience.
These are the problems with your philosophy.

"Inclined" to be benevolent...are they really? I recall going to work one night years ago during a heavy snowstorm. A snowplow ran me off the road...I did a spectacular Triple Lutz with my SUV before sliding down the embankment into the median strip. Several other drivers watched this happen, and not one stopped to help me. While I was extricating my SUV, not one of the dozen drivers that passed stopped to help the 160cm tall, 48kg, 33-year-old woman who was standing knee-deep in snow. So much for benevolence.

Have "some sort" of conscience...but on what is it based? People are infinitely capable of self-justification. Don't believe me? Go to a white supremacist forum and get your idealism crushed before it hurts you. Or a men's rights forum. Or a fundamentalist Christian forum. People are not inherently good; they're inherently paranoid, jealous, ignorant, greedy, and hateful. And that's includes Murray Rothbard, the man you seem to admire.

There's no point in wasting time with economic philosophies from previous centuries. They're about as applicable to the post-modern era as the Bible.

It's already been proven to you that even relaxing financial regulations has caused banks, brokerage and investment firms, and corporations to surge forward in their greed and not only steal from people, but also wreak financial havoc on the country as a whole. That you refuse to acknowledge this documented fact occurring throughout US history shows that you've really not delved into the ideology you support beyond, "It sounds like a good idea." Look at the consequences, Tom. Unregulated markets bring financial disaster...it's a proven fact.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:17 pm

You don't lock your doors to keep out the bad guys. If they want in, they'll find a way. You lock your doors to keep out the honest people who might otherwise be tempted.
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