Helthcare a Privelij

A skeptical look at medical practices
Tom Palven
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:27 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:...you always have one constant : Humans with their bad human behaviour.
that most undamaged people are basically inclined to be benevolent, and have some sort of conscience.
These are the problems with your philosophy.

"Inclined" to be benevolent...are they really? I recall going to work one night years ago during a heavy snowstorm. A snowplow ran me off the road...I did a spectacular Triple Lutz with my SUV before sliding down the embankment into the median strip. Several other drivers watched this happen, and not one stopped to help me. While I was extricating my SUV, not one of the dozen drivers that passed stopped to help the 160cm tall, 48kg, 33-year-old woman who was standing knee-deep in snow. So much for benevolence.

Have "some sort" of conscience...but on what is it based? People are infinitely capable of self-justification. Don't believe me? Go to a white supremacist forum and get your idealism crushed before it hurts you. Or a men's rights forum. Or a fundamentalist Christian forum. People are not inherently good; they're inherently paranoid, jealous, ignorant, greedy, and hateful. And that's includes Murray Rothbard, the man you seem to admire.

There's no point in wasting time with economic philosophies from previous centuries. They're about as applicable to the post-modern era as the Bible.

It's already been proven to you that even relaxing financial regulations has caused banks, brokerage and investment firms, and corporations to surge forward in their greed and not only steal from people, but also wreak financial havoc on the country as a whole. That you refuse to acknowledge this documented fact occurring throughout US history shows that you've really not delved into the ideology you support beyond, "It sounds like a good idea." Look at the consequences, Tom. Unregulated markets bring financial disaster...it's a proven fact.


Fifty three years ago over Christmas vacation two strapping guys in the car with me screamed like babies when I spun my car in a white-out and ended up in a snowdrift on the Ohio Turnpike.

A guy in a big truck stopped, hooked a chain to somewhere under the front of my car, and pulled us out in perhaps five minutes.

This may seem too simplistic, but I think that we can at least lay some of people's seeming lack of empathy today to ideas like "We have government for that- that's what FIRST RESPONDERS are for," and people have also become numbed by government paperwork and lack of leisure time. and maybe there are more law suits today ensuring that no good deed goes unpunished.

Granted, that's all speculative, but I can say with some certainty that you completely misjudge Murray Rothbard. He was a jolly and good-hearted old soul who cared about little working stiffs rather than fat-cats.

I was groupie gofer for him during various political events in the NYC/NJ metropolitan area, carrying stacks of books and pamphlets from people's cars for him and things like that. I don't think he knew my name, but he knew my face.

He pointed to me and asked me to stand by the light switch for this video below and, fwiw, I turned off the light.

This may give you a little insight into his personality.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mu ... &FORM=VIRE
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:44 pm

Tom Palven wrote:I can say with some certainty that you completely misjudge Murray Rothbard. He was a jolly and good-hearted old soul who cared about little working stiffs rather than fat-cats.
Really?
Take Back the Streets: Crush Criminals. And by this I mean, of course, not "white collar criminals" or "inside traders" but violent street criminals – robbers, muggers, rapists, murderers. Cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error.
Of course, he doesn't mean "white collar criminals." Let's protect them, by all means.

It’s true: greed has had a very bad press. I frankly don’t see anything wrong with greed.
Of course, he doesn't. He can afford to not see anything wrong with greed, can't he?

Take Back the Streets: Get Rid of the Bums. Again: unleash the cops to clear the streets of bums and vagrants. Where will they go? Who cares?
Much caring. Such compassion. NOT.

Rothbard had a problem. He thought he was a great economist, but practically nobody within the profession agreed and most of them had never heard of him.

Rothbard had a solution. He was ignored because he held extreme pro-market views, which were ideologically unpopular in the academy.

Rothbard had a problem. Milton Friedman held extreme pro-market views--not as extreme as Rothbard's, but far enough from academic orthodoxy so that the same effect should have existed. But Milton Friedman not only wasn't ignored, he was viewed within the profession as a leading figure--despite his unpopular political views.
—David Friedman, Comment on "Austrian Fantasy" (July 26, 2011)
The economists you admire don't seem to admire each other. Friedman thinks Rothbard was a fraud; Rothbard thinks Smith was a fraud.

Applying our theory to parents and children, this means that a parent does not have the right to aggress against his children, but also that the parent should not have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate his children, since such obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon the parent and depriving the parent of his rights. The parent therefore may not murder or mutilate his child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from doing so. But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die. The law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive. This rule allows us to solve such vexing questions as: should a parent have the right to allow a deformed baby to die (e.g., by not feeding it)? The answer is of course yes, following a fortiori from the larger right to allow any baby, whether deformed or not, to die.
—Murray Rothbard
Sorry, this is the man you admire? Your definition of "jolly, good-hearted soul" includes a person who believes it's acceptable to allow babies to starve to death? Yikes. I'm done.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:00 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote: The economists you admire don't seem to admire each other. Friedman thinks Rothbard was a fraud; Rothbard thinks Smith was a fraud.


Sadly, they are both correct.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:22 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:I can say with some certainty that you completely misjudge Murray Rothbard. He was a jolly and good-hearted old soul who cared about little working stiffs rather than fat-cats.
Really?
Take Back the Streets: Crush Criminals. And by this I mean, of course, not "white collar criminals" or "inside traders" but violent street criminals – robbers, muggers, rapists, murderers. Cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error.
Of course, he doesn't mean "white collar criminals." Let's protect them, by all means.


Can I ask where those quotes came from?

A link, perhaps?

Doesn't sound like the Rothbard I admired.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:16 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: It is not just some people. It is all people and their innate and conscious bad behaviour. I've read a lot of books on organisational psychology and there are a lot of "behaviours" that you simply can't separate from humans.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I disagree and doubt you could provide any link to such a notion.
Spector psychology.jpg

Here is the main text book for my Industrial and Organisational Psychology modules at university. You may have noticed that for the last five years I have clearly discussed equity theory in humans and a whole range of other innate and conscious behaviours and their inputs into economic and social theory.

I think you are going to have to take this on the chin, Bobbo. There are tons of papers and books on organisational human psychology and its influence concerning economics.

I studied with boys and girls from the Australian Tax Office, who worked in "behavioural tax policy". (psychological warfare)
:D
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:23 pm

but.....but...... but......Matt!!!!!!! Humans don't express their nature as limited to Industrial and Organizational Models. I can readily accept that earning a living in a corporate environment is highly selective for all kinds of bad behavior............ but what about free range hoomans?

My chin remains unbruised.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:but.....but...... but......Matt!!!!!!! Humans don't express their nature as limited to Industrial and Organizational Models.
They certainly do. They are experts at doing so, every day.

Next time you pick up a Playboy but can't find a Playgirl, you will be witnessing a clear example of population spanning, human psychology.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:36 pm

Matt. Please confirm. You are saying that evaluation of hoomans in an Industiral/Organizational setting will tell you everything you need to know about hooman nature? Including tribes in deep Amazonia who have never seen tv? Or more to the point: the legions of working class folks who find their satisfaction in the home and their private pursuits rather than in succeeding at work?

Tell me it ain't so!

Discussing things in general. Always misleading. What are you saying: that Psychology tells us that hoomans cannot be altruistic? If they can be, then studies showing they can also exhibit bad behaviors are not telling the exclusive story. When hooman attributes fall on a continuum.......why do you stake claim that only one point on that continuum is relevant?

you make no sense.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:54 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt. Please confirm. You are saying that evaluation of hoomans in an Industiral/Organizational setting will tell you everything you need to know about hooman nature?
Not everything Bobbo, but things about their behaviour on mass.

You may remember my discussion on "psychological equity theory" where humans don't mind paying larger amounts of tax if they think the next person is paying the same level (equity) of tax. That is specifically part of the ATO's policy and why they went for Paul Hogan first as the "example".

That's why they teach industrial and organisational psychology at small universities like Harvard. Thankfully I went to UNSW.
:D

(Believe it or not, a lot of the research and data I studied came from the IDF who also specialise in industrial and organisational psychology as there is a cross over into managing the armed forces. Indeed you may also remember my father was the psychiatrist in charge of the ADF psychology ( He dealt mostly with drug & alcohol problems in mass groups)


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Including tribes in deep Amazonia who have never seen tv?
Yes Bobbo. Innate human psychology evolved over hundreds of thousands of years and not just since TV was invented. :lol:

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:05 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:I can say with some certainty that you completely misjudge Murray Rothbard. He was a jolly and good-hearted old soul who cared about little working stiffs rather than fat-cats.
Really?
Take Back the Streets: Crush Criminals. And by this I mean, of course, not "white collar criminals" or "inside traders" but violent street criminals – robbers, muggers, rapists, murderers. Cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error.
Of course, he doesn't mean "white collar criminals." Let's protect them, by all means.


Can I ask where those quotes came from?

A link, perhaps?

Doesn't sound like the Rothbard I admired.
Absolutely. That particular one, as well as the "Take Back the Streets" quote, is from a January 1992 essay Rothbard wrote on behalf of David Duke called
"Right-Wing Populism" from the book The Irrepressible Rothbard: The Essays of Murray Rothbard, edited by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. and with a preface by JoAnn Rothbard.

Friedman's comment is from his own blog here.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:11 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:but.....but...... but......Matt!!!!!!! Humans don't express their nature as limited to Industrial and Organizational Models.
They certainly do. They are experts at doing so, every day.

Next time you pick up a Playboy but can't find a Playgirl, you will be witnessing a clear example of population spanning, human psychology.

Which reminds me... :mrgreen:
NSFW
► Show Spoiler
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:32 am

There's a demand for Dick Pics?

Matt: "no tv's" is a cultural/environmental differentiation..... not a time based one.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:38 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There's a demand for Dick Pics?
Not to my knowledge. Hence the market saturation. :lol:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:01 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: "no tv's" is a cultural/environmental differentiation..... not a time based one.
Innate behaviour is not cultural and we still share some of our evolved innate behaviour with some of the apes, we separated from 7 million years ago.

Justice- and fairness-related behaviors in nonhuman primates
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/Supplement_2/10416.full

Two Monkeys Were Paid Unequally: Excerpt from Frans de Waal's TED Talk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:04 am

[quote="Matthew Ellard"]Innate behaviour is not cultural [/color]

Of course THAT is true.....BY DEFINITION. but the most complex and interesting behavior is LEARNED which is more culturally/environmentally determined than the innate behavior from which it springs.

Course.........you have to be able to learn, to find anything interesting. Right.........Matt?
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Course.........you have to be able to learn, to find anything interesting. Right.........Matt?
Humans can learn. They can't drop innate behaviour. William Golding already covered that base in Lord of the Flies.
Lord of the flies.jpeg
Lord of the flies 2.jpg
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Course.........you have to be able to learn, to find anything interesting. Right.........Matt?
Humans can learn. They can't drop innate behaviour. William Golding already covered that base in Lord of the Flies.
I stopped flinging my poo at people who annoyed me, so there's hope. :wgrin:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Humans can learn. They can't drop innate behaviour. William Golding already covered that base in Lord of the Flies. [/color]Lord of the flies.jpegLord of the flies 2.jpg

Of course learned behavior OVERCOMES innate behavior....its what CIVILIZATION is all about. Those kiddies in Lord of the Flies REVERTED to innate behavior only when they were taken out of their civilization.

Seems you missed the whole point of that book.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:07 am

So...........who's arguing with whom.........about wut?
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:20 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Of course learned behavior OVERCOMES innate behavior....its what CIVILIZATION is all about. Those kiddies in Lord of the Flies REVERTED to innate behavior only when they were taken out of their civilization.

Seems you missed the whole point of that book.

Which is another reason anarchy (or it's slightly prettier analogue, libertarianism) is an unacceptable ideology for a society.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Of course learned behavior OVERCOMES innate behavior...
Not always Bobbo. That's why I gave you the example concerning Playboy and Playgirl. That's why I gave you the paper on equity theory and human fairness.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:.its what CIVILIZATION is all about.
No Bobbo. Civilisation is also structured on the same innate behaviour that we also see in ape troops. Equity in banana distribution amongst the ape troop. Equity in taxation amoungst the human troop.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Seems you missed the whole point of that book.
I don't think so Bobbo. Have you ever read the book yourself? :lol:

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:31 am

"Not Always"===>admits to "sometimes." The VERY POINT I MAKE.

I think the disagreement may center on the fact that "innate" behavior or motivations may always be with us but it is the EXPRESSED or observable behavior that counts.... not the motivation. Freud first recognized this finding by identifying the ID as the primary driver, the innate drives in us all, to be opposed/manipulated by the Super Ego.... with the Ego having traits of both?...(I could be wrong about that Ego thing.)
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:51 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"Not Always"===>admits to "sometimes." The VERY POINT I MAKE.
No Bobbo.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist previously wrote:I disagree and doubt you could provide any link to such a notion.
You previously denied organisational and industrial psychology even existed. I set out basic text books and examples to educate you otherwise.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I think the disagreement may center on......
What disagreement? You are trying to form an argument for something you know nothing about. :D

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:34 am

Matt: too manipulative.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Gord » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:28 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There's a demand for Dick Pics?

Not to my knowledge. Hence the market saturation. :lol:

Well, there is, but rarely by the target audience.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:30 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Course.........you have to be able to learn, to find anything interesting. Right.........Matt?
Humans can learn. They can't drop innate behaviour. William Golding already covered that base in Lord of the Flies.
I stopped flinging my poo at people who annoyed me, so there's hope. :wgrin:


Hope for what? :scratch:
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:37 pm

For the people who annoy me to not get covered in poo. :wgrin:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:54 am

So maybe a twist on the thread - but this caught my eye - that maybe hundreds of US counties might not have ACA insurers in 2018.

What?

Why? What is it about a county that would cause an insurer to stop providing healthcare insurance in an area as small as a county? Indeed, why does county count at all, and not at least state? After all, counties do not have insurance company commissioners, while states do. If I were a state commissioner, I wouldn`t permit an insurance company to issue policies in the state unless it did so for the entire state.

As a state insurance commissioner, what would you do?

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:17 am

TJrandom wrote:If I were a state commissioner, I wouldn`t permit an insurance company to issue policies in the state unless it did so for the entire state.

Big government!

As a state insurance commissioner, what would you do?

Move to Canada, they have a much better system.
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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:45 am

The reason I raise the state insurance commissioner is that they are the last line of defence for people with insurance, but for which the insurance company has decided to no longer pay for covered treatments. This is actually a fairly common experience for people on the cancer forum that I have joined. Between the state insurance commissioners and the state congressmen, and sometimes the governors, an appeal to them seems the only way to get action out of even some of the better known insurance companies.

I am not talking about payment caps having been surpassed, or even controversial treatments - but rather continuation of treatments that have previously been covered and which are working for the patient as evidenced by CT scans, etc. These are cases where the insurance company has just decided to see if they can get away with non-payment, and where the physician-appeal process (to the insurance company) has not been successful. And also of course where the patient is most vulnerable.

Threatened with no longer being able to sell in a state market seems to get the job done – but at great effort by the physician and patient. Thus it seems to be that a state ought to be the smallest area where insurance can be offered.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:48 am

Gord wrote:... Move to Canada, they have a much better system.


While I do agree that Canada has a better system, moving there seems out of reach for most people. The (IMO) US needs to implement a system that is at least as good as the Canadian system - that works for all Americans.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:55 am

Moved from Trump Promises thread....

xouper wrote:
JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:Under Obamacare, the insurance companies are prohibited from selling me only the coverage I want.


Az if we coud ever rite owr own polisy.


In a free society, we could. That is the ideal I am operating from.

It works for auto insurance and home-owners insurance. I can pick and choose which kinds of coverage I want to buy. Example: If I don't want flood insurance, I don't have to buy it. If I don't want towing insurance or roadside service coverage, I don't have to buy it.

The same should be true for healthcare insurance. If I don't want substance abuse coverage or pediatric coverage, I should not have to buy it.


Xouper – that would be all well and good, if it were not healthcare insurance – where failure to be insured (or sufficiently insured) falls onto the tax base anyway thru higher healthcare expenses when the now insufficiently insured individual shows up at the emergency room – where at least emergency care must be provided.

Nothing similar happens with auto or homeowners insurance.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby xouper » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:32 am

TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:
JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:Under Obamacare, the insurance companies are prohibited from selling me only the coverage I want.


Az if we coud ever rite owr own polisy.


In a free society, we could. That is the ideal I am operating from.

It works for auto insurance and home-owners insurance. I can pick and choose which kinds of coverage I want to buy. Example: If I don't want flood insurance, I don't have to buy it. If I don't want towing insurance or roadside service coverage, I don't have to buy it.

The same should be true for healthcare insurance. If I don't want substance abuse coverage or pediatric coverage, I should not have to buy it.


Xouper – that would be all well and good, if it were not healthcare insurance – where failure to be insured (or sufficiently insured) falls onto the tax base anyway thru higher healthcare expenses when the now insufficiently insured individual shows up at the emergency room – where at least emergency care must be provided.


I understand your point, but that does not explain (or justify) why the government can mandate that I buy substance abuse coverage or pediatric coverage when I will never ever need it.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby xouper » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:35 am

Gord wrote:Move to Canada, they have a much better system.


My father lives in Canada. To hear his complaints, it does not seem that Canada is doing a better job. And it is getting worse, according to his family doctor.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:49 am

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:
JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:Under Obamacare, the insurance companies are prohibited from selling me only the coverage I want.


Az if we coud ever rite owr own polisy.


In a free society, we could. That is the ideal I am operating from.

It works for auto insurance and home-owners insurance. I can pick and choose which kinds of coverage I want to buy. Example: If I don't want flood insurance, I don't have to buy it. If I don't want towing insurance or roadside service coverage, I don't have to buy it.

The same should be true for healthcare insurance. If I don't want substance abuse coverage or pediatric coverage, I should not have to buy it.


Xouper – that would be all well and good, if it were not healthcare insurance – where failure to be insured (or sufficiently insured) falls onto the tax base anyway thru higher healthcare expenses when the now insufficiently insured individual shows up at the emergency room – where at least emergency care must be provided.


I understand your point, but that does not explain (or justify) why the government can mandate that I buy substance abuse coverage or pediatric coverage when I will never ever need it.


I agree. My point does not justify it. But simply living in a society that values the health of people, and healthcare to obtain that - does. That is, it does if society wants it, and it does just as much as other society programs which I suspect you do support - like the military, the police force, state governments, the federal government, heck – even the interstate highway system, etc. Say that you don`t support forced participation in payment for all of these and you have won your point.

And BTW - the ACH does not require that you buy those separate coverages - which you will never use. It does require that you purchase a (somewhat) comprehensive policy which has those included. I personally do not have a family history risk of leukaemia, nor any other cancers for that matter - but a comprehensive policy that covers these along with addiction, pregnancy, heart attack, etc. - covers everyone need it personally or not, and in the process also provides for my out-of-pattern cancer. That is simply the nature of group insurance.

I have comprehensive national healthcare coverage in Japan, and almost any procedure a doctor can legally do to me in treatment for a medical condition is covered. Sure, as a male I will never get pregnant, and as a careful person I will never be addicted - but some will. And just as a woman gets covered for pregnancy under the same program, but never will suffer from prostate problems - she too must share the cost for those men who do. No big deal; never even discussed, since everyone knows the program works for all and provides excellent health care for all. If it couldn`t be afforded I could understand, but to claim that one doesn`t need some procedure so shouldn`t contribute to the pool - that I do not understand for a person who values society and the health of fellow life travellers.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:03 pm

xouper wrote:
Gord wrote:Move to Canada, they have a much better system.


My father lives in Canada. To hear his complaints, it does not seem that Canada is doing a better job. And it is getting worse, according to his family doctor.


If you look at health care on a national basis - Canada will be doing better, and particularly so when both the insured and uninsured are included in the numbers. Here are three...

expenditure

Life expectancy

Infant mortality

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:23 pm

Brought over from the Trump Promises thread…

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:In a free society, we could. That is the ideal I am operating from.


The problem being that too many peepl interpret 'free' az 'free to rip off everybody wen I can get away with it'.

It works for auto insurance and home-owners insurance. I can pick and choose which kinds of coverage I want to buy. Example: If I don't want flood insurance, I don't have to buy it. If I don't want towing insurance or roadside service coverage, I don't have to buy it.


The insurans companyz luv to itemize! The more detail, the better!

'Sorry Mr. Xouper, you arent covered for left inguinal hernia wen its the rezult uv a strain incurred by intentional lifting on a Saturday during summer.'


Actually, a very good point. Here in Japan, I recently bought a top-up major medical policy for my wife and learned that If I added just a wee bit more to the premium, she could have all ICD-coded procedures covered instead of just half (the two lists looked to be of equal procedure counts, more or less.) So for example, for a heart attack – list `A` covered full blown heart attack, but not insertion of a stint (a list `B` procedure) to prevent a heart attack. To get that stint covered, I needed to purchase the additional `B` list of procedures. Same for strokes, etc. So the policy that they were trying to sell would have been worthless to a person who was careful and went to the doctor at the first signs of trouble. But upon me realising this, and facing the potential loss of a paying customer – the insurance company, for a few drachmas more, was willing to cover everything.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby xouper » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:24 pm

I don't know how I let myself get sucked into this conversation. It is not a topic I have much interest in discussing. I am not interested in taking the time to justify my opinions, and in any case, no one really cares what my opinions are anyway. I mention this only so y'all will know why I stopped replying in this thread.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:31 pm

Luckily, there's no mandate. ;)
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby xouper » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:45 pm

I will express one more opinion/rant and then I'm done. Feel free to disagree, I don't care.

TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:
Gord wrote:Move to Canada, they have a much better system.


My father lives in Canada. To hear his complaints, it does not seem that Canada is doing a better job. And it is getting worse, according to his family doctor.


If you look at health care on a national basis - Canada will be doing better, and particularly so when both the insured and uninsured are included in the numbers. Here are three...

expenditure

Life expectancy

Infant mortality


Those are all very nice numbers, but they miss the most important part of the problem, and that is how the healthcare system actually delivers in practice on a daily basis to the average person who goes to the clinic or hospital to get real problems taken care of in a timely manner.

In Canada, things are not at all as rosy as is sometimes advertised. There is a small but growing dark underbelly of healthcare failures in Canada and it is only going to get worse in the future because no one is currently doing anything about it.

Also, the shortage of general practitioners (the traditional family doctor) is getting worse and might soon become critical because the system relies on those as gateways to any specialist treatment one might need. That is to say you can't expect to book an appointment to see a specialist without a referral from your family doctor. Example: My father will be losing his family doctor in a few months (the doctor is retiring) and cannot find anyone to take his place due to the severe shortage of general practitioners in his city. That just plain sucks. Thank you, Canada.

Here's another number that doesn't get much publicity: According to some sources, the second most common reason listed for bankruptcies in Canada is medical (other sources put it third or fourth, but it's still higher on the list than most people would suppose). And the reason for that is the same reason the number of medical bankruptcies is so high in the US. It's not because they don't have healthcare insurance, most of them do, but rather it's because they lost their job due to medical reasons and can't pay the bills. So they put "medical" as the reason for the bankruptcy in the US and in Canada. Misleading perhaps, but there you have it.


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