Food shortage??

A skeptical look at medical practices
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psychiatry is a scam
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Re: Food shortage??

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:34 pm

water.org/water-crisis
why no mention of drinking water and sanitation :burn:
let them eat chocolate ?

just realized water has nothing to do with starving . the reason there is so much trouble in Africa is just political .
nothing to do with the lack of water .and there are no refugees ; its all fake news
Last edited by psychiatry is a scam on Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

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Re: Food shortage??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:58 pm

PIAS

One issue at a time, please. This thread is about food.

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Re: Food shortage??

Postby TJrandom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:43 am

Is closed loop sustainability the goal, or is feeding the masses at a better economic cost than at present? If what goes to waste today, is put to use, then an improvement has been made. I believe that the fish farms use soybean meal and fish waste to feed their farmed fish. As with any competitive endeavour, they will be looking to improve efficiency.

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Re: Food shortage??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:59 am

Closed loop sustainability is often a mirage. The whole of planet Earth is one gigantic recycling factory, and often trying to close that loop proves not practical, and often unnecessary. For example, we do not need to recycle nitrogen. It ends up as gaseous nitrogen in the air which then become nitrogen fertiliser again via nitrogen fixing bacteria, or else synthetic nitrogen fertilisers. To a lesser extent, this is true of many nutrients. Perhaps all.

Feeding the masses is possible, even with 10 billion, and should not be at great cost.

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Re: Food shortage??

Postby TJrandom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:11 am

Agreed. And doing so without forcing any particular food group on anyone is also possible - hence my slight pushback on bugs, unless of course someone wants to eat bugs.

We have frogs - now that the rice fields are flooded and ready to plant. As part of that planting, I envision a frog catcher addition to tractors, for some yummy frog sandwiches. Of course I may not get McDs to carry it worldwide. Many unexploited options are available.

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Re: Food shortage??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:14 am

What a horrible lack of clarity/definitions/common parlance/staying saddled on one horse....

Lance Kennedy wrote:Closed loop sustainability is often a mirage.
Ummm.... which loop in what sense? I don't take TJ's excellent post as an "actual closed loop" but rather just a label for much more efficient life cycle of production.

Lance Kennedy wrote:The whole of planet Earth is one gigantic recycling factory, and often trying to close that loop proves not practical, and often unnecessary.
Recycling factory?...... "ok"...everything does recycle but factory implies an end product in mind or some kind of intentionality?....which isn't the case....but that is only the preface for WHAT DO YOU MEAN by "close that loop?" IE: "recycling factory" is a characterization of the "whole Earth" being a closed loop, or the food production part of it such as either or anything in what is actually an "open" system be called closed...for whatever purpose there be. The only loop that can be closed in a precise way would be to block out the sun?.......but Shirley that is not what anyone means??? But absent THAT..... what do you mean? Makes no sense at all.

Lance Kennedy wrote:For example, we do not need to recycle nitrogen.
Wtf??? WE NEED TO ADD NITROGEN "to the cycle." There is a cost/benefit analysis to what can be grown using recycled nitrogen...and it falls way short of what the world needs. This statement makes no sense at all except wholly outside of what you think you are saying. The Mr Potato Head of Analysis.

Lance Kennedy wrote: It ends up as gaseous nitrogen in the air which then become nitrogen fertiliser again via nitrogen fixing bacteria, or else synthetic nitrogen fertilisers.
The great bulk of nitrogen ends up as meat and fiber.....or maybe as agricultural run off....VERY LITTLE returns to the air and even less becomes fertilizer via fixation. Hmmm....I don't care to look up but you might be right that "most" or the most numerical "becoming" of N2 is synthetic nitrogen through the Haber process you mention......stripping Hydrogen from Methane....leaving behind a whole bunch of .......guess what? So..... the manufacture from mined resources of the great bulk of nutrients is the OPPOSITE of recycling within a closed loop. Its entirely an artificial man made/supplied from outside the loop process creating a lot of pollution and environmental degradation along the way.

Lance Kennedy wrote:To a lesser extent, this is true of many nutrients. Perhaps all.
A most excellent example of analysis by ignorance. Do you have any idea at all as to what other nutrients are fixated from the air or do you mean that 99% of nutrients used are commercial man made fertilizers created from mined raw materials....not recycled in its normal meaning? Its the Agricultural Revolution that feeds the world, and you understand very little of it.

Lance Kennedy wrote: Feeding the masses is possible, even with 10 billion, and should not be at great cost.
Define "should" and "great." We CAN FEED the whole world RIGHT NOW......... but we don't and food riots/war over that issue are increasing in number. So.... what we can do has very little to do with the real world issues presented.
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Re: Food shortage??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:43 am

Bobbo

I did not say all nutrients were fixed from air. Just that they tended to recycle. For example, most soluble minerals end up in the sea. We now know that phosphorus, for example, precipitates in massive deposits in sediments under the sea, and it will be the next great source of phosphorus for manufacturing fertilisers. Ditto potassium, which can be extracted from sea water. That accounts for nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus, which in terms of tonnes, are the main minerals needed in fertilisers. Others may be needed, also, but in much tinier quantities. There are roughly 50 elements which can be part of fertiliser mixes. Many are extractable from sea water, and the Earth recycles them back to sea water.

There are some elements that are not currently available from this source. But unlike you, Bobbo, I have an appreciation for human progress, and I foresee that more and more resources will be subject to improved methods of exploitation.

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Re: Food shortage??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:13 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

I did not say all nutrients were fixed from air. Just that they tended to recycle.


I didn't say you did and in fact responded PRECISELY consistent with the fact you added synthetic (man made) as well which is the main source of said nutrients and therefor not recycled at all....tendency subsumed.

Hmmmm...... it must be like a sense of humor? Being on topic fully contextualized and relevant? Very unresponsive. In a word: stuck. Playing ping pong with a flat ball. All serves, no returns.

Ha, ha.
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Re: Food shortage??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:50 am

Incidentally, Bobbo, when you said very little nitrogen returns to the air, you were wrong. I suggest you look up 'nitrogen cycle' on google. Under some conditions, denitrifying bacteria can reduce the amount of nitrogen in soil by as much as 50%. Instead, it returns to the air.

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Re: Food shortage??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:55 am

Well....it all cycles through the air, earth and water and cows and corn and fish and rocks and so forth. If most of the nitrogen is removed from the crop land BY THE CROPS that are harvested and the run off and what not....what percentage is left to go into the air? Our atmosphere is what...80% Nitrogen? A HOOGE reservoir for the Haber process to draw upon...the resupply from all other processes being quite minor.

I'm satisfied.

Prove me wrong. Do you have any stat at all or are you as most likely given your performance merely shooting from the hip?
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Re: Food shortage??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:10 am

The quick google turning up only descriptions of the process and not numbers that apply, I am struck that I am using a restricted notion of the Nitrogen Cycle. There is not one cycle per say....or there is with many sub routines in it. In the instant case, I'm thinking of the shortest cycle...from Atmosphere to microbes to plants then....do plants even respire nitrogen as animals do?...... in and out as air circulation with no "cycle" about it.... plants to die and their nitrogen to be cycled by microbes again back to N2?===I am just "assuming" myself what with Tons of fertilizers added each year that the short cycle I describe is not significant. but as stated: ALL nitrogen in the cycle goes from air to plants to earth to water to rock and so forth. Eddies and loops. Doesn't "start" with the Atmosphere. Its a circle. Wheres that thread on the inherent nature of a ring?
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Re: Food shortage??

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:26 am

On water:
Even current technology allows for water desalination - it's just limited by power. And power is no real limitation, since photovoltaics can provide that.

Future tech will make it even easier:

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39482342
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Food shortage??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:18 am



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