Gluten is good.

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Gluten is good.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:13 pm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... ce+News%29

We all know there are diet faddists who avoid eating foods with gluten, even though they do not suffer coeliac disease. This has always seemed very stupid to me. If you have coeliac disease, then sure, you must avoid gluten*. But if you do not have it, you are simply avoiding another vegetable protein which is doubtless a valuable addition to your diet.

The reference above also points out that gluten containing foods tend to be associated with dietary fiber, and avoiding them reduces fiber intake. This increases the risk of type 2 diabetes. There is enough type 2 diabetes already, so why add to the risk?

*Only one person in 100 has coeliac disease.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:05 pm

Gluten is very bad for some people:)
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:07 pm

Salomed

Gluten is bad only for those with coeliac disease. That is only 1% of the population.

True there are numerous nut cases who think they must avoid gluten, and do not have coeliac disease, but that is because they are nut cases.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:49 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Salomed

Gluten is bad only for those with coeliac disease. That is only 1% of the population.

True there are numerous nut cases who think they must avoid gluten, and do not have coeliac disease, but that is because they are nut cases.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Monster » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:13 pm

salomed wrote:Gluten is very bad for some people:)

Does the smiley indicate you were being silly? I hope so.
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:21 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Salomed

Gluten is bad only for those with coeliac disease. That is only 1% of the population.

True there are numerous nut cases who think they must avoid gluten, and do not have coeliac disease, but that is because they are nut cases.

Image


It isn't just Coeliac disease. Grain Brain and Wheat Belly are worth reading if you are interested in this topic.

And it is addictive.

And it does suppress satiation response.

And the majority of wheat in the USA contains glyphosate.

Bromide?
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Poodle » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:07 pm

... and there is now some evidence that the avoidance of gluten increases the likelihood of Type 2 diabetes. It is interesting to reflect upon the fact (I emphasize - FACT) that if it were not for gluten-containing cereals, a lot of the human race would have perished some centuries ago.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:15 pm

Poodle wrote:... and there is now some evidence that the avoidance of gluten increases the likelihood of Type 2 diabetes. It is interesting to reflect upon the fact (I emphasize - FACT) that if it were not for gluten-containing cereals, a lot of the human race would have perished some centuries ago.


It is also a fact that the wheat we have today is not the same as the wheat even a century ago.
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Poodle » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:20 pm

... nor the century before that. Or the one before that. The same can be said of cabbages and onions, cows and sheep, beans and peas - all manner of things. Including hysteria. Munchausen's Syndrome is probably about the same, though.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:33 pm

Poodle wrote:... nor the century before that. Or the one before that. The same can be said of cabbages and onions, cows and sheep, beans and peas - all manner of things. Including hysteria. Munchausen's Syndrome is probably about the same, though.



You should educate yourself:
https://authoritynutrition.com/modern-wheat-health-nightmare/
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Poodle » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:56 pm

Really? My - you do have one on you lately, my dear salomed. Firstly, all of my flour is purchased from a real miller with a real windmill. It's more expensive, but I simply like the idea. Secondly, whoever told you that the grain to be milled was "soaked, sprouted, fermented and bread was baked using slow rise yeast" is speaking directly from the arse (believe me, I know). You never 'soaked' any grain intended for milling, as the amount of spoilage and the risk of ergot contamination would be forbidding. You CERTAINLY didn't do that with grain for milling unless you wanted a soggy mess clogging up your millstones. Let's see, now - you WOULD soak grain for brewing because you did actually want a soggy mess in which the yeast could work. Oh - the yeast. That would have come from the local brewer, skimmed straight off the top of his latest brew. The brewer would have taken that from his last brew. He had no idea at all what strain of yeast it might be - it was simply the local variety.

Don't fall for the absolute rubbish espoused by people living now who think they can take a guess at what happened in the past. It's actually not too much work to discover the truth.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:00 pm

Poodle wrote:Really? My - you do have one on you lately, my dear salomed. Firstly, all of my flour is purchased from a real miller with a real windmill. It's more expensive, but I simply like the idea. Secondly, whoever told you that the grain to be milled was "soaked, sprouted, fermented and bread was baked using slow rise yeast" is speaking directly from the arse (believe me, I know). You never 'soaked' any grain intended for milling, as the amount of spoilage and the risk of ergot contamination would be forbidding. You CERTAINLY didn't do that with grain for milling unless you wanted a soggy mess clogging up your millstones. Let's see, now - you WOULD soak grain for brewing because you did actually want a soggy mess in which the yeast could work. Oh - the yeast. That would have come from the local brewer, skimmed straight off the top of his latest brew. The brewer would have taken that from his last brew. He had no idea at all what strain of yeast it might be - it was simply the local variety.

Don't fall for the absolute rubbish espoused by people living now who think they can take a guess at what happened in the past. It's actually not too much work to discover the truth.



But it isn't the same wheat. That was my point.
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Poodle » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:32 pm

No - and the implication to be gained from that is ...? However, referring me to a site which contains more than its fair share of nonsense is not conducive to a very respectful response.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:49 pm

Poodle wrote:No - and the implication to be gained from that is ...? However, referring me to a site which contains more than its fair share of nonsense is not conducive to a very respectful response.


What nonsense? That site is science based and with it's share of experts.

I bet you didn't read it did you.
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Poodle » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:24 pm

SIGH

I've already pointed out the errors. Take off your blinkers.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:46 pm

Poodle wrote:SIGH

I've already pointed out the errors. Take off your blinkers.


Show me one error in the site, Authority Nutrition, that you have pointed out to me.
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:57 pm

http://www.healthyfood.co.nz/articles/2 ... t-to-avoid

I had a look at Salomed's reference.
It is definitely shakey. It contains some truth mixed with a lot of unproven implications. There is no empirical evidence that modern wheat is less healthy than older wheat. There is no empirical evidence that soaking and fermenting wheat adds to its nutritional value. There is no empirical evidence that a condition called non celiac sensitivity to gluten even exists. These are all nut case foodist ideas, based on nothing more than feelings.

There is an alternative condition called FODMAP sensitivity, which many people mistake for gluten sensitivity and which the nut case nutrition web sites fails to understand. FODMAP sensitivity is quite different and applies to a lot of foods other than wheat. But it causes problems to the small number of people (about 1 in 50) who suffer from it. Ironically, the worst food for such people is not wheat, but onions!

If you, Salomed, think you are FODMAP sensitive, you need to be tested, and receive expert advice. Wheat contains fructans, which are one of the FODMAPS, but cutting out wheat has only a small effect on FODMAP intake. More details are in the reference above.

Salomed, you also need to teach yourself about the first rule of the science of toxicology, the science of poisons. The first rule is that the key to the effect a poison has is dose. If the dose is small enough, there is no effect at all. Again, the internet is full of fools who do not understand this simple principle, and they run around warning people against fictional problems with tiny traces of various things in food, like preservatives, colorings, glyphosate, bromide, other pesticides, and various others.

Get this straight. If the dose is low enough, it does no harm whatever.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:10 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://www.healthyfood.co.nz/articles/2011/november/food-fodmaps-and-ibs-what-to-eat-and-what-to-avoid

I had a look at Salomed's reference.
It is definitely shakey. It contains some truth mixed with a lot of unproven implications. There is no empirical evidence that modern wheat is less healthy than older wheat. There is no empirical evidence that soaking and fermenting wheat adds to its nutritional value. There is no empirical evidence that a condition called non celiac sensitivity to gluten even exists. These are all nut case foodist ideas, based on nothing more than feelings.

There is an alternative condition called FODMAP sensitivity, which many people mistake for gluten sensitivity and which the nut case nutrition web sites fails to understand. FODMAP sensitivity is quite different and applies to a lot of foods other than wheat. But it causes problems to the small number of people (about 1 in 50) who suffer from it. Ironically, the worst food for such people is not wheat, but onions!

If you, Salomed, think you are FODMAP sensitive, you need to be tested, and receive expert advice. Wheat contains fructans, which are one of the FODMAPS, but cutting out wheat has only a small effect on FODMAP intake. More details are in the reference above.

Salomed, you also need to teach yourself about the first rule of the science of toxicology, the science of poisons. The first rule is that the key to the effect a poison has is dose. If the dose is small enough, there is no effect at all. Again, the internet is full of fools who do not understand this simple principle, and they run around warning people against fictional problems with tiny traces of various things in food, like preservatives, colorings, glyphosate, bromide, other pesticides, and various others.

Get this straight. If the dose is low enough, it does no harm whatever.


I am fine thanks!

My point was that modern dwarf wheat is health negative in ways that ancestral wheats are not. If you could show I am mistaken on that that would be great. Have you read Eat Wheat? It is on my list. You should read Grain Brain and WheatBelly if you have issues.

I eat minimal wheat. But I do eat it. Today, for example, I had a wholemeal bun.

Stay factual;)
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:48 pm

Salomed

If you do not have celiac disease, eat as much bread as you like. Your suggestion of wholemeal is excellent. I make my own bread at home, and fill it with good things, like six different kinds of seeds. My bread is about the healthiest thing you could ever eat, although not for celiacs.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:54 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Salomed

If you do not have celiac disease, eat as much bread as you like.


I disagree. Have you even read Grain Brain? Dough!
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:37 pm

Salomed

If you go into a book shop, and check out the various sections, the New Age section will contain the most books that tell total crap. The second worst is always the Health section, which also contains loads of books telling total crap. The fact that a book from the Health section of a shop tells you something absolutely does NOT mean it is correct.

Nutrition is a shakey subject even when supported by good science. When it comes from popular literature, then more often than not, it is crap. We know a few things about nutrition. One is that high fibre bread is good for you, as long as you do not have celiac disease.

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I did an internet search on the book "Grain Brain". In this search I rejected anything that might be crackpot, and looked only at material by reputable medical and scientific sources. They tell me that this book is a load of crap. There has been at least one study looking for a link between grain consumption and brain function. It found that there was a positive correlation between consuming lots of high fibre grains and sharper brain power. In other words, Salomed, what you have been reading is utter nonsense.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:03 pm

Coeliac disease is a anti-body reaction to transglutaminase protein and not a reaction to wheat. It is simply that transglutaminase is found in wheat. It is also a manufactured protein which is used in other food preparations since the 1990's and that's why "Gluten Free" labels are becoming more common as food, not normally known to contain gluten, now contains gluten.

Amanda my partner suffers Coeliac disease. I can make any sort of culinary dish for Amanda, although sometimes I have to make things from scratch, like tandoori paste and so on.
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:18 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Salomed

If you go into a book shop, and check out the various sections, the New Age section will contain the most books that tell total crap. The second worst is always the Health section, which also contains loads of books telling total crap. The fact that a book from the Health section of a shop tells you something absolutely does NOT mean it is correct.

Nutrition is a shakey subject even when supported by good science. When it comes from popular literature, then more often than not, it is crap. We know a few things about nutrition. One is that high fibre bread is good for you, as long as you do not have celiac disease.

Ps
I did an internet search on the book "Grain Brain". In this search I rejected anything that might be crackpot, and looked only at material by reputable medical and scientific sources. They tell me that this book is a load of crap. There has been at least one study looking for a link between grain consumption and brain function. It found that there was a positive correlation between consuming lots of high fibre grains and sharper brain power. In other words, Salomed, what you have been reading is utter nonsense.



Link please.
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Nobrot » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:24 pm

salomed wrote:
Poodle wrote:SIGH

I've already pointed out the errors. Take off your blinkers.


Show me one error in the site, Authority Nutrition, that you have pointed out to me.

Well that's not going to be easy is it? Not when you consider they seldom make unambiguous testable claims of any sort. Lots of scienency sound bites specifically tailored to the copy paste style of science journalism; (Sarah Knapton Telagraph?)
Bottom Line: Wheat is processed and prepared differently these days, which makes it less nutritious and more harmful than traditionally prepared wheat.

Yes, and?
Bottom Line: Modern wheat was introduced around the year 1960. It was developed via cross-breeding and crude genetic manipulation, which changed the nutrient and protein composition of the plant.

They don't 'do' science, they do popular opinion and you know what they say about opinion?

But then I did find this. Possibly it was mentioned up thread :P
But we also used to prepare our grains differently. They were soaked, sprouted, fermented and bread was baked using slow rise yeast.

Last and by all means least, we have this revelation:
Modern Wheat is Much More Harmful to Celiac Patients


It's just as well celiac patients don't eat the {!#%@} stuff then.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:43 pm

http://www.docsopinion.com/2013/11/05/g ... rain-salt/

To Salomed, who wanted a link. There are many, but that will do for a start.

One of the criticisms of Perlmutter's book is that it does not distinguish between kinds of carbohydrate. There is no doubt that low fibre starchy foods like white flour and white rice are not good for you, and should be consumed minimally. However, he fails to note that high fibre carbohydrates like brown rice and wholemeal bread are totally different. A good, wholemeal and multigrain loaf is excellent and healthy.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Poodle » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:... Amanda my partner suffers Coeliac disease. I can make any sort of culinary dish for Amanda, although sometimes I have to make things from scratch, like tandoori paste and so on. :D


See, that's where you're going wrong, Matthew. Scratch has been shown on many reputable crank sites to be positively harmful to people with Younameit Disease. Scratch should be avoided wherever possible. In many countries, restaurants are compelled by law to declare any dishes which are prepared from scratch. Best avoided, I say.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Gord » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:52 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://www.docsopinion.com/2013/11/05/grain-brain-take-grain-salt/

To Salomed, who wanted a link. There are many, but that will do for a start.

I like this one: http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/06/pr ... octor.html

It ends like this:

...Grain Brain ends with a warning that, in the context of Perlmutter’s full dossier, is a bit surreal. The epilogue tells the story of Dr. Mesmer, an 18th-century physician and charlatan who duped the public into believing he could “cure nervous system problems using magnetism,” which happens to be the origin of the word “mesmerized.”

According to Perlmutter, “the medical and scientific community feared Mesmer,” and eventually they exposed him as a fraud. Perlmutter writes of this exposure approvingly, warning readers to stay alert for other like-minded crooks.

It’s now generally accepted that Mesmer was actually treating psychosomatic illness, and he profited mightily from people’s gullibility. In retrospect, his theories and practices sound ridiculous, but in truth, the story of Mesmer parallels many stories of today. It’s not so ridiculous to imagine people falling prey to products, procedures, and health claims that are brilliantly marketed. Every day we hear of some news item related to health. We are bombarded by messages about our health — good, bad, and confusingly contradictory. And we are literally mesmerized by these messages. Even the smart, educated, cautious, and skeptical consumer is mesmerized. It’s hard to separate truth from fiction, and to know the difference between what’s healthful and harmful when the information and endorsements come from “experts.”

It may be tempting to ignore all of Dr. Perlmutter’s advice, but this paragraph, at least, deserves everyone’s attention.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby salomed » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:37 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://www.docsopinion.com/2013/11/05/grain-brain-take-grain-salt/

To Salomed, who wanted a link. There are many, but that will do for a start.

One of the criticisms of Perlmutter's book is that it does not distinguish between kinds of carbohydrate. There is no doubt that low fibre starchy foods like white flour and white rice are not good for you, and should be consumed minimally. However, he fails to note that high fibre carbohydrates like brown rice and wholemeal bread are totally different. A good, wholemeal and multigrain loaf is excellent and healthy.



I read that. Hardly a Knock Down, quite flaccid in fact. I am not a champion of Perlmutter but his book is very well written and researched and, as the article you linked to states, he is a respected neurologist.

Lance Kennedy wrote:A good, wholemeal and multigrain loaf is excellent and healthy.


That is a matter of opinion. Some think it is unhealthy. I think, in moderation, for most people, wheat is not bad and in some aspects might be good.
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:59 pm

Being a respected neurologist does not mean a capable nutritionist. Sadly, there are many doctors, including specialists, who step outside their area of expertise and promote crap. Think of Dr. Vandana Shiva, who is qualified in quantum physics, but advises farmers about how to make the most of 'cosmic energy'. Duh!

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:03 pm

When I was farming, I loved cosmic energy. Of course, in those days, it was called sunlight.
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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Poodle » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:23 pm

Sunlight? Good grief! We've moved on a lot since the days of sunlight! That produces nasty things like vitamins. Wouldn't want that, dear me, no.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:12 pm

The method used by 'cosmic energy' farmers is to fill a cow's horn with cow sh*t, and bury it in a field at midnight on the night of the full moon. They leave it there to become topped up with mystical cosmic energy, for 3 months (IIRC), and then mix the well decomposed sh*t with other fertiliser and spray it on the fields. The cosmic energy then is supposed to make the crops grow fast. I have this sneaking suspicion it is the fertiliser instead. But then, I am 'just' a skeptic.

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby TJrandom » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:32 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:The method used by 'cosmic energy' farmers is to fill a cow's horn with cow sh*t, and bury it in a field at midnight on the night of the full moon. They leave it there to become topped up with mystical cosmic energy, for 3 months (IIRC), and then mix the well decomposed sh*t with other fertiliser and spray it on the fields. The cosmic energy then is supposed to make the crops grow fast. I have this sneaking suspicion it is the fertiliser instead. But then, I am 'just' a skeptic.


Good to have cows that cooperate in this ritual. Not eating or drinking for three months must be a bummer for them. Of course they reap the reward in the end, as the new crops are tastier for them and the farmer too. :cloppy:

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Re: Gluten is good.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:22 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:The method used by 'cosmic energy' farmers is to fill a cow's horn with cow sh*t, and bury it in a field at midnight on the night of the full moon. They leave it there to become topped up with mystical cosmic energy, for 3 months (IIRC), and then mix the well decomposed sh*t with other fertiliser and spray it on the fields. The cosmic energy then is supposed to make the crops grow fast. I have this sneaking suspicion it is the fertiliser instead. But then, I am 'just' a skeptic.

Mystical Energy, by itself, only grows mystical crops. Not much good to the starving millions, but great for mystical people.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero


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