What is not patented is prohibited

A skeptical look at medical practices
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What is not patented is prohibited

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:13 pm

Can anyone name some natural substances easily found or grown in nature that are often prescribed for a certain psychological medical ailment? Patented or not.
Last edited by zeuzzz on Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Poodle » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:16 pm

Zeuzzz - if you have the clap, just come out and say so and then go to visit your doctor.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:24 pm

Hey, me having the clap or not is irrelevant! I meant for psychological or mental health ailments, from sleep aids or relaxants to anti depressants or anxiolytics. And not woo ones that have not been proven by science to work. Just edited the OP.

I keep drawing blanks.

Should probably get that seen to as well.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Monster » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:46 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Can anyone name some natural substances easily found or grown in nature that are often prescribed for a certain psychological medical ailment? Patented or not.

I can't think of any legal ones for psychological purposes.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Gord » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:53 pm

Food for anorexics.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:54 pm

lithium is found in some drinking water
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Gord » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:17 pm

So is lead.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:39 pm

Try the whole field of "natural/folk medicine"---its full of them and some even work. Same with chinese medicine, Indian Medicine, Native american Medicine....etc. LOTS of sources.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:24 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Can anyone name some natural substances easily found or grown in nature that are often prescribed for a certain psychological medical ailment? Patented or not.

Water. It can cure dehydration. :lol:

Bark from the willow tree can cure.......Zuezzz to do some basic research....

Zeuzz? Tell me about the research you have done into the natural remedies carried by Otzi the iceman?

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:52 pm

Weird. I thought aspirin was prescribed for inflammatory issues, not for psychological effects.

Doctors do not prescribe willow tree bark. They prescribe acetylsalicylic acid.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Poodle » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:04 pm

See 'Herbalism'.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Try the whole field of "natural/folk medicine"---its full of them and some even work. Same with chinese medicine, Indian Medicine, Native american Medicine....etc. LOTS of sources.


Most are bunk and pseudo-science though. Even the ones named above are not something that doctors often prescribe, never would be a good rule of thumb. I could have easily said zinc and many other things, however these are not marketed to doctors by pharmaceutical companies as viable treatments, as they are not profitable vs the unique drugs they create and patent.

I guess there are two types of effective yet not patented psychological medicines; plant medicines with marginal and/or disputed effects like St Johns wort that are not profitable due to low mark-up (as if the price got too high people would just grow their own) and other chemicals like lithium that are so easy to make / find in nature that there is no scarcity based market for them.

Pretty much all the ones that tend to work to a high degree end up getting scheduled pretty quickly from what I have gathered. And basically none are prescribed. Except maybe by over qualified physicians who know their pharmacology.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:46 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Weird. I thought aspirin was prescribed for inflammatory issues, not for psychological effects.

I don't think Otzi made that modern distinction.

His head hurt. He eats his wort. His head stopped hurting.

Are you suggesting he should have contacted his local qualified family practitioner in 3,500 BC? :lol:

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:53 pm

lol ok Matt. Hijacking another one of my threads with banal diatribes? This is getting old.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:57 pm

zeuzzz wrote: Most are bunk and pseudo-science though.
Actually, most are placebos and I have been talking about this with the professor in charge of our IVF.

The problem is that the traditional remedies sometimes include incredibly complex varieties of molecules, that also vary from strain to strain. For one individual, taking the traditional remedy, there maybe twenty good things and fourteen bad things in the same remedy. For the next individual, it may be totally different.

It's simply going to take decades to work through all potential "organic thingees" to separate and understand each elementary molecule and then try formulate a series of new new useful laboratory drugs.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:59 pm

zeuzzz wrote:lol ok Matt. Hijacking another one of my threads with banal diatribes? This is getting old.

Zeuzzz. This is a skeptic forum. You asked if anything could last 20,000 years. I gave you an example of a habitation site that is 230,000 years old.

Why are you complaining again? Am I disturbing your attempt to set up "Atlantis is real" argument?

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:08 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:It's simply going to take decades to work through all potential "organic thingees" to separate and understand each elementary molecule and then try formulate a series of new new useful laboratory drugs.


The process of only ever prescribing single chemicals is a medically spurious notion, which only really caught on after the 1950s, it's a profit driven dogma in medicinal science and pharmacology. The only reason you would even consider not using an efficacious plant medicine based on basic pharmacognosy is due to corporate reasons. Not scientific healthcare reasons. There is a history of how this happened, and it's nearly all for commercial reasons.

Phytotherapy works, just the institutional bias in medicine, from education to research funding, is highly biased against it. It's not a competitive business model. Most of the medicines that work are however prohibited, as soon as one catches on that changes cognition (pain, depression, anxiety, memory, etc) for the better for psychological ailments in the population it falls under the misuse of drugs act.

Good molecules and bad molecules is a misnomer, to an extent, as the entire plant can be studied as a whole just as well as any single molecule can for safety and efficacy. Cannabis contains up to 400 active molecules, it's this spectrum of effects that all of these combined have that gives it it's unique pharmacological profile, that is far better than any single cannabinoid for numerous cognitive things. People can use it for years with no issues. The same with poppy tea being less dangerous than extracted and patented opiates, in terms of LD50, addiction and withdrawal effects. That contains probably thousands of molecules, many of which are active.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:31 am

zeuzzz wrote: The process of only ever prescribing single chemicals is a medically spurious notion, which only really caught on after the 1950s, it's a profit driven dogma in medicinal science and pharmacology.


No zeuzzz. Learn some basic science. The modern clinical technique of prescribing combinations of modern drugs, requires that you isolate the individual drugs first. Otherwise you can't gather statistics. :lol:

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:48 am

That's a non sequitur to what I just said, you've taken that one sentence out of context to the points I made afterwards.

My main point was about pharmacognosy and phytotherapy.

I'll better outline my point with some more historical evidence and examples another day.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:43 am

In case you hadn't noted a central theme here these two pictures that just appeared in my facebook feed are kind of relevant.

Image

Image

I've probably not been as clear as I could have been above. Will frame it differently soon.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:29 pm

Gord wrote:So is lead.


lead is mainly the result of pollution / not natural / god would not do that .
found the story about natural lithium - Sunday review - ana fels 9/13/14 should we all take a bit of lithium ...

and it is just common sense that big business would naturally eliminate any naturally occurring competition
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:19 am

zeuzzz wrote:In case you hadn't noted a central theme here these two pictures that just appeared in my facebook feed are kind of relevant.

Image

Image

I've probably not been as clear as I could have been above. Will frame it differently soon.



anyone have an idea / opinion on this ???
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:39 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:anyone have an idea / opinion on this ???
Zeuzzz passed away in his sleep in December 2016. Prior to that he admitted taking illegally obtained prescription pharmaceuticals for recreational purposes. This included Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) which has similar characteristics to serotonin. These drugs had complex half lives that only a pharmacist could calculate. Zeuzzz didn't know what "half life" even meant and probably mixed these drugs with his normal prescribed anti-psychotic drugs and suffered a fatal chemical reaction in his brain in his sleep.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Gord » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:21 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Gord wrote:So is lead.

lead is mainly the result of pollution / not natural / god would not do that .

Lead in water (for instance) is mainly the result of pollution, yes, but water can also naturally contain lead as well if (for instance) it leaches lead sulphide from a deposit of galena ore. That's the kind of thing "god" would do.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:15 am

zeuzzz wrote:In case you hadn't noted a central theme here these two pictures that just appeared in my facebook feed are kind of relevant.

Image

Image

I've probably not been as clear as I could have been above. Will frame it differently soon.


feels like I busted this thread - so ill try again.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby TJrandom » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:39 am

I prescribe red wine for a wide range of what ails you. Same for sake, beer, and occasionally whisky.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Monster » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:57 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:In case you hadn't noted a central theme here these two pictures that just appeared in my facebook feed are kind of relevant.

Image

Image

I've probably not been as clear as I could have been above. Will frame it differently soon.



anyone have an idea / opinion on this ???

I have an opinion. Both of those images are dumb.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:11 pm

It is true that consumerism creates incentives that are bad for the individual and society:
creating a kind of dependency or addiction is the best way to retain customers
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
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3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:23 pm

A customer cured is a customer available for the next round of drugs. Most pharmaceutical sales are to people over 60. Keeping people alive into their senior years creates a windfall for Big Pharma.

Every cure creates a customer for future sales. Suppressing cures of any type would be profoundly counterproductive.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Gord » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:46 am

ElectricMonk wrote:It is true that consumerism creates incentives that are bad for the individual and society...

And for the environment. See for example so-called "conflict palm oil": http://www.goldmanprize.org/blog/power- ... oil-hands/

Sections of rainforest in Indonesia, Malaysia and Papua New Guinea have been cleared to grow more palm oil to be used in friggin' snack foods, driving orangutans, elephants, rhinos, and tigers closer to extinction.

Mmmm, potato chips....
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:37 am

ElectricMonk wrote:It is true that consumerism creates incentives that are bad for the individual and society:
creating a kind of dependency or addiction is the best way to retain customers

...a good portion of which might find themselves soon without the coverage that helped foot the bill...
.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:47 am

.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:03 am

I've posted this elsewhere before, but maybe it has a place here too for the numbers...

Image
http://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/rx-dr ... ?a=viewall
.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Gord » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:04 am

Gord wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:It is true that consumerism creates incentives that are bad for the individual and society...

And for the environment. See for example so-called "conflict palm oil": http://www.goldmanprize.org/blog/power- ... oil-hands/

Sections of rainforest in Indonesia, Malaysia and Papua New Guinea have been cleared to grow more palm oil to be used in friggin' snack foods, driving orangutans, elephants, rhinos, and tigers closer to extinction.

Mmmm, potato chips....

Yay, rainforest video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxNyDjAxzcE&lc=z13ax1tbezq4ulplm22rc15ommf1udxde.1487829537360774
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:17 pm

Some years ago, there was an an article in Scientific American about herbal remedies. The authors estimated that only one herbal remedy in 100, when subject to proper scientific study, turned out to be effective. Even the few that are useful have major drawbacks. For example, the strength of the active ingredient in a herbal remedy can vary by 200 fold from one pill to the next. Some herbal remedies also contain quite nasty toxins.

St. John's Wort, which is used for mild depression, has the drawback that it is incompatible with many pharmaceutical products, including some antibiotics, and even the contraceptive pill. It renders those therapies ineffective. Makes me wonder how many children are born due to St. John's Wort.?

A number of very good drugs came originally from herbal remedies. Artemisinin, for example, is probably the best malaria therapy, and came from a shrub that grows wild in China. However, pharmaceutical companies have found that it is much better to find the active ingredient, synthesise it in pure form, and formulate it into a pill. This gives a much more reliable therapy, with a standard dose, and no extraneous nasty products upsetting the patient.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:40 pm

And one can tell all those who insist on "natural" that yeast is often (and more and more) used to makes those pills. :-P
.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby Gord » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:47 am

scrmbldggs wrote:...yeast is often (and more and more) used to makes those pills. :-P

Prices keep rising and rising.
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:50 am

:laff:
.

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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:02 am

scrmbldggs wrote::laff:


was hoping someone wood comment on his last post on this topic :-/
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Re: What is not patented is prohibited

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:03 am

zeuzzz wrote:In case you hadn't noted a central theme here these two pictures that just appeared in my facebook feed are kind of relevant.

Image

Image

I've probably not been as clear as I could have been above. Will frame it differently soon.
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .


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