Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

A skeptical look at medical practices

Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #41  Postby Shen1986 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:16 am

Been reading about Out of body experiences and found this:

University of Southampton study

In the autumn of 2008, 25 UK and US hospitals began participation in a 3 year study, coordinated by Dr. Sam Parnia and Southampton University. Following on from the work of Pim van Lommel in the Netherlands, the study aims to examine near-death experiences in 1,500 cardiac arrest survivors and so determine whether people without a heartbeat or brain activity can have documentable out-of-body experiences.[130]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience

Here it is written that the study of Near Death experiences should take only three years but now we have almost five years now and Pim van Lommel is a known woo believer of the soul. Also the link they cite:

Study into near-death experiences
By Jane Dreaper
Health correspondent, BBC News


Many people report seeing a bright light


A large study is to examine near-death experiences in cardiac arrest patients.

Doctors at 25 UK and US hospitals will study 1,500 survivors to see if people with no heartbeat or brain activity can have "out of body" experiences.

Some people report seeing a tunnel or bright light, others recall looking down from the ceiling at medical staff.

The study, due to take three years and co-ordinated by Southampton University, will include placing on shelves images that could only be seen from above. This is a mystery that we can now subject to scientific study

Dr Sam Parnia
University of Southampton

Towards the light


To test this, the researchers have set up special shelving in resuscitation areas. The shelves hold pictures - but they're visible only from the ceiling.

Dr Sam Parnia, who is heading the study, said: "If you can demonstrate that consciousness continues after the brain switches off, it allows for the possibility that the consciousness is a separate entity.

"It is unlikely that we will find many cases where this happens, but we have to be open-minded.

"And if no one sees the pictures, it shows these experiences are illusions or false memories.

"This is a mystery that we can now subject to scientific study."

Dr Parnia works as an intensive care doctor, and felt from his daily duties that science had not properly explored the issue of near-death experiences.

Process of death

He said: "Contrary to popular perception, death is not a specific moment.

"It is a process that begins when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working and the brain ceases functioning - a medical condition termed cardiac arrest.

"During a cardiac arrest, all three criteria of death are present. There then follows a period of time, which may last from a few seconds to an hour or more, in which emergency medical efforts may succeed in restarting the heart and reversing the dying process.

"What people experience during this period of cardiac arrest provides a unique window of understanding into what we are all likely to experience during the dying process."

Dr Parnia and medical colleagues will analyse the brain activity of 1,500 cardiac arrest survivors, and see whether they can recall the images in the pictures.

Hospitals involved include Addenbrookes in Cambridge, University Hospital in Birmingham and the Morriston in Swansea, as well as nine hospitals in the US.


Taken from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7621608.stm

That means three years have passed and Parnia has nothing to give us? Only woo and his feeble and stupid arguments that is all. I am even more skeptical of this and Parnia wants to make new studies out of this:

The AWARE investigators have explained that owing  to the exploratory nature of this study they do not anticipate there to be an end in the near future. Instead the study is likely to evolve into further research projects downstream with time. They are pleased to report the study is progressing well but have indicated that the results so far suggest more data and larger scale studies may be required. At this time, they anticipate being able to release the preliminary results obtained during the first five years of the study in September or October 2013 to mark the fifth anniversary of the launch of the study. This will be done through the appropriate scientific channels such as publications in scientific journals and possibly by means of a lecture, symposium or conference at a suitable venue if there is sufficient public interest. This would allow the data and results to be discussed in further detail.


Taken from: http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=279

Wow this is becoming like a study for the believers. When you believe then pay for the study. No wonder that Horizon is a charity.

Horizon Research Foundation is a Registered Charity No. 296655 in the UK


Taken from: http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=279

That means Parnia is only milking money from this nothing more or less. His time is over he had 3 years and didn't finished it. How much money and time does this guy want?

This makes me even more skeptical of this whole stuff. Sorry for resurrecting this thread but this is what I wanted to add.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #42  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:06 am

Wanted to add this to the whole thread:

Sam Parnia is a true believer. Been looking on more info about him. He is not neutral. He has done several studies into this before with NO results:

Especially as Parnia's research sounded rather familiar. Which isn't surprising given that he has done the rounds of the radio studios before. In Jan 2004 there was a remarkably similar flurry of stories concerning his OBE research. Radio 4 broadcast a half-hour documentary on the subject, and in a write-up producer Amanda Hancox wrote the following:

In March Dr Sam Parnia and Professor Peter Fenwick will begin a year-long study, looking at patients who have had cardiac arrests to find out if they have had any experiences or memories whilst their heart stopped beating.

In particular they are interested in those who report an out-of-body experience (OBE), when the "experiencer" looks down on their body and surroundings from a height.

At Hammersmith Hospital and 12 other hospitals across the UK, symbols will be placed in strategic places so that only those who have an OBE will be able to see them.

"If these claims are verified" says Dr Sam Parnia, "then this will have a huge implication for science because what it would indicate for us is that our current understanding of mind, body and brain isn't sufficient and that it is possible for the mind/consciousness to separate from the brain at the end of life."

Déjà vu all over again.

Hancox also mentioned a preliminary study at a hospital in Swansea, which she described as "inconclusive". Of 39 cardiac arrest patients who were questioned, only two reported an out-of-body experence, and neither saw the hidden symbols. Absolutely no evidence of astral projection, then. In this sort of research, though, negative results are always "inconclusive".

I've no idea what results were produced by the twelve-hospital study Parnia and his colleagues launched four and a half years ago. In fact, I've found no reference to it whatever following the high-profile launch. I did, however, discover that Parnia has written a book, What happens when we die?, which was published in late 2005. From what I can gather, the cover pages's promise of "a ground-breaking study" was not borne out by the content. Presumably if anything of consequence had been discovered during the 2004 research project Parnia would have been trumpeting the fact this morning. Instead, there was no suggestion, either in the interview or in Parnia's essay, that he had ever looked into the subject before.

In fact, Parnia has been plugging his "research" for years. In June 2001, the Telegraph reported that "two eminent doctors" (Parnia and Fenwick) had "found new evidence to suggest that consciousness or the soul can continue to exist after the brain has ceased to function." The evidence, however, turned out to be entirely anecdotal and scientifically worthless. Out of 63 recovered heart-attack victims, seven reported some sort of experience while they were unconscious, and four of them had had the full package: light at the end of a tunnel, feelings of peace, meetings with "spiritual beings", and so on.

While Fenwick and Parnia have been sticking their pictures to hospital ceilings, more serious research into out-of-body experiences has gone some way towards explaining the phenomenon. At UCL and in Lausanne, Switzerland, psychologists used virtual-reality goggles to simulate the feeling of being outside the body. They were able to trick a volunteer's brain into thinking that a holgraphic image of a person's body, "located" some distance away, was really theirs. When the virtual body was threatened with a hammer, for example, the volunteer's real body experienced a physiological reaction. The researchers speculated that the sensory deprivation and bodily trauma experienced by near-death patients might have a similar "displacing" effect on consciousness.


Taken from: http://heresycorner.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... again.html

Wanted to add this and here is the link where he claims he is neutral:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=21200

It seems that Parnia has done this research some time and still NO hits. Therefore is there will be no cheating then it seems that no hits will there be.

Also information and Peter Fenwick - this also doesn't look good another believer:

Fenwick's interest in near-death experiences was piqued when he read Raymond Moody's book Life After Life. Initially skeptical of Moody's anecdotal evidence, Fenwick reassessed his opinion after a discussion with one of his own patients, who described a near-death experience very similar to that of Moody's subjects.[11] Since then, he has collected and analysed more than 300 examples of near-death experiences.[12][13]

He has been criticised by the medical community for claiming that human consciousness can survive bodily death.[14] Fenwick argues that human consciousness may be more than just a function of the brain.[9]

"The plain fact is that none of us understands these phenomena. As for the soul and life after death, they are still open questions, though I myself suspect that NDEs are part of the same continuum as mystical experiences."[15]

Fenwick's research has found that near-death experiences do not, overall, tend to have a substantial religious component. The tendency is for patients to reinterpret their belief system in light of the experience, rather than to fit the experience to their pre-existing ideas. He and his wife Elizabeth Fenwick report in their studies that near-death experiences are almost always positive in nature.[13]

He and his wife are co-authors of The Art of Dying, a study of the spiritual needs of near-death patients. The Fenwicks argue that modern medical practices have devalued end-of-life experiences, and call for a more holistic approach to death and dying.[16]


He is also the president of the Horizont Foundation the same which does the AWARE project:

Fenwick is the president of the Horizon Research Foundation,[10] an organisation that supports research into end-of-life experiences.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fenw ... ychologist)

So with all this information AWARE will I think fail because when they even have some "hits" these hits will turn out that it was just again a bad procedure or like ti was in Penni Satoris case where she feeded information to her patient who had a OBE and should be proof of a soul:

10: ...I looked back and I could see everything that was going on on the floor. It was marvellous, I could see nurses around me and the doctors. I was still going up in the air and I could feel somebody going like this to my eye. (Puts his finger up to his eye.) I eventually looked back and I could see one of the doctors pulling my eye, what for I didn't know...

10: ...When I had the experience of being up there I could see what was going on down below. I could even tell you where the doctors were.
P: Where were they because I couldn't find one?! When you were in the chair collapsed I tried to find a doctor but I couldn't find any of them. In the end I had to get the consultant who was walking in the corridor just coming on duty.
10: There was a doctor down the other end...the young boy. [At the time he was unwell, the doctors were all in a meeting and not on the unit.] What actually happened?
P: (Long description from Penny about the sequence of events.)...The doctor came and checked your pupils - that's when he was looking in your eye, he was shining a torch to see if they were reacting.
10: Were they reacting then?
P: They were reacting, I can't remember now, I'll have to refer back to my notes but very slowly reacting and one pupil was a different size.
10: I look back where I could feel somebody going like that (touches his eye). That made me look back....I turned back when the doctor touched my eye. I looked down and could see what was going on.


Or here:

Note, this is not intended in any way as a criticism of Sartori. I think that she was trying to be thorough and careful, just as she described. And I think that the rigour with which she cared out this study is commendable. But that highlights the problem with taking undocumented accounts at face value. Even under conditions where the interviewer is aware that she can bias the information, and is trying to be careful, there are multiple instances where the subject receives all sorts of veridical information from the interviewer. It is only going to be worse under the informal and undocumented conditions surrounding most NDE anecdotes. None of the "veridical" elements of this case which Sartori lists as remarkable in her book (watching the doctor shine a pupil torch in his eyes, watching Penny clean his mouth and then put something long and pink into his mouth, watching the physiotherapist poke her head around the curtain looking very worried) are in the documentation.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... ia-14.html

Sam Parnia is wrong again when he answers the question about the rats and the experiment that they had the brain surge:

There's no way to know what the rats were experiencing while their hearts were stopped, and other studies in dying humans and dogs have found no brain wave activity that was parallel to what the researchers found in the new study, said Dr. Sam Parnia, a resuscitation researcher at Stony Brook University School of Medicine in New York, who was not involved in the study.


Taken: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... dy-13.html

He is WRONG because it was found also in humans that they have this surge:

Brain Waves Surge Moments Before Death
Oct 6, 2009 03:00 AM ET  //  by  Irene Klotz  
A study of seven terminally ill patients found identical surges in brain activity moments before death, providing what may be physiological evidence of "out of body" experiences.


Taken from: http://news.discovery.com/human/health/ ... -brain.htm

Also here:

http://www.skeptiko.com/lakhmir-chawla- ... searchers/

Also he is citing a ancient study of dogs which was done by also Pim Van Lommel which was debunked here:

http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... study.html

Therefore again a failure on Sam Parnias hands.. He is protecting the NDEs like it would be a treasure and that he is onto something. He is a true believer and nothing more..
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #43  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:19 am

Sam Parnia had another discussion in a radio show - 7 Sept 2013 - interview on "The People's Pharmacy" radio show.. He obviously want to become a celebrity. However he claims this in the show:

Right near the end where the interviewer is asking him what he would like people to take away from his book, Parnia assures people that death is generally a pleasant experience - "except for suicides".


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... ew-33.html

Hmm suicides are bad. However some NDEs where people have committed suicide report the opposite what Sam Parnia is telling:

Somewhere around June 2000 I tried to commit suicide for the third time in a row with medications. The first two times I failed so I thought that this time I had to succeed. I was recently divorced, had to leave my home etc.. Suddenly I had nothing and being disabled no other woman wanted me. I then took sleeping pills and fell asleep. I realized something was wrong, I saw my own body. Two doctors and 2 paramedics were working on me. My GP was also present as well as some police officers. I saw all those people in my apartment which is very small ( 4m by 4m). The irony was that after years of social isolation, I never had any visitors, that space was now overcrowded.

I saw what they did and heard what was said which wasn’t very nice: “This is not the first time, we know him”. I am manic-depressive but I can assure you that my experience had nothing to do with that. I told all those present: “I’m fine you don’t have to do anything”. But they didn’t listen. I called: “Hello I’m over here”. I saw everything as if I was floating near the ceiling. I became angry and called: “Hello I’m OK doesn’t anyone hear me”? No one answered, I waved both arms but they didn’t see. It was creepy, I saw my own body and it was as if I thought: you have served your purpose, thank you and goodbye. Then all of a sudden I was gone from my small house and I was in a dark space or tunnel. It scared me. I felt lost didn’t know what was happening, when I saw a white light in the distance. The light was whiter than white, a light we don’t have here on earth. I felt I had to go to the light but I didn’t know how. I was sucked towards it and once in the light I saw that the colors were much more intense than here. I saw flowers, rivers, houses but they didn’t resemble anything on earth. No, everything was perfect, beautiful, everything radiated happiness and peace, even the music was in perfect harmony with everything. It was overwhelming and too much to put into words. I realized I was no longer in pain I was free and no longer ill. I was free from suffering mentally ( psychiatrists don’t really know how much we suffer). Then I saw someone approaching me, it was a deceased family member. He looked a lot younger and certainly not dead, we talked and then 2 other, veiled, figures came towards me. They had a human shape but I couldn’t see who they were although they were familiar. I was shown the film of my life, so fast that a few seconds there would here maybe be a hundred years or more. All the pieces of the puzzle fell into place, you see past, present and future like you are that piece of the puzzle that is the universe. I don’t remember what was said only that I was told that it wasn’t my time yet, that I had to go back because my work wasn’t done. There I knew what that work was but once I was back in my body it was erased from my mind. I think that the 2 figures I couldn’t see represent my spiritual guides. After I reluctantly said goodbye I was back in my body.


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _m_nde.htm

I suffered from treatment-resistant depression and had followed a strict regimen of psychiatric care and numerous medications for two years.  Nothing helped.  I decided to commit suicide..............Next I was in a strange, unearthly city.  There were three young women, about age 19 to 25, who were very beautiful and glamorous, as I always wished to be.  They stayed with me.  I did not question their presence, who they were, where they came from, or where I was.  We did not speak, although communication was perfectly clear.  I was filled with a longing to be beautiful.  It was my greatest wish in life because I thought if I were beautiful, I would be loved and wanted.  They asked me what I wanted and I told them this.  They took me across the city to a white building.  We went in, up a long, winding staircase to a large loft full of light.  A man came in and waved his hands around me and made different motions, speaking aloud almost to himself.  It was my understanding that he was transforming me into a physically beautiful woman.


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _b_nde.htm

I overdosed on purpose.I lost the ability to think clearly and decided to die. Next thing I knew, I was fighting to catch my breath and the hospital thought I was having convulsions; I was just fighting the breathing tube.I felt a thump; like a punch to my chest and then I felt a pull; a physical, touching-me pull. It was my spirit being pulled out of my body and it was fine by me. In fact, it was a good thing. I saw my body in the hospital bed, I heard what people were saying, I knew I was dying. It was all good. It was a thump, then a letting go and a release of care. It is hard to describe, but I think about it all the time. I still want to die.


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _m_nde.htm

There are many more.. Therefore again Sam Parnia is wrong again. Our NDE expert is telling woo in his own woo..

Note: I do not encourage people to commit suicide. I am just pointing out the ridiculous claims of Sam Parnia.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #44  Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:31 am

It's a typical Believer's take on suicide. God forbids it, so it's a sin.
come to the dark side... we have fruitcake




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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #45  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:34 am

scrmbldggs wrote:It's a typical Believer's take on suicide. God forbids it, so it's a sin.


Yes but some NDErs are telling the opposite. Sam Parnia isn't even a master of his own field - NDEs.

Also even dogs go to heaven:

My female boxer, RoxyMoxy had lymphoma, throat cancer.  We took her to a nice Jewish doctor, a specialist, for chemo-therapy. After months of treatment Roxy failed to get better.  She was extremely ill and suffering terribly.  It was the most difficult, but the only decision my husband and I could reach... to let her go would end her pain and misery.  I took her back to her primary doctor's office. She was very weak and so sick. He's an awesome holy man from India , her regular veterinarian. He put her up on the exam table and then gave her a shot of medicine to relax her. He left the room and said he would return is a few minutes to give her the next shot that would put her to sleep .  But , about 5 minutes went by and RoxyMoxy was still very alert (*wide awake). She was present time conscience. The first shot did not make her relax at all. In a few more minutes the doctor returned and gave her the deadly injection. As he was injecting the needle and delivering the shot I felt Roxy's spirit leave her body and to my surprise I left with her, in no time at all I had traveled so far from where I was standing on earth and had traveled to another galaxy light years away. But, then as if no time at all had passed I was standing back at the exam table with the doctor and my dog's body. Her spirit had just traveled from our world to the next.  Do all dogs go to Heaven? YES guaranteed, that is what I learned. The experience changed my life, I became a vegetarian, so I would daily remember the beauty of my puppy.


http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... la_sde.htm
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #46  Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:44 am

come to the dark side... we have fruitcake




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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #47  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:48 am

Wanted to add this. I have been through the archives of NDEs. I found so for to the archive till half of 2010 only one hellish experience of a NDE with suicide:

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _z_nde.htm

The rest were neutral there I found two:

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _j_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm

Good ones here we go that means other suicide NDEs which were positive:

I killed myself but I was sent back..Look at me, his voice was low and gentle. I can't, I squeaked. I was too ashamed and too afraid to move. You can, he said in a soothing voice, engendering so much love and trust to me in that moment. He reached over the bench with his hand and gave me his strength. Look at me ,he urged again. When my shallow and tear-soaked eyes met his, I saw that moment of violation from his view. I saw his heart swell to its brink with torture and pain. I saw the Creator of the Universe cry out with pain. He reached out through time and distance toward me, and took my little hand in his. In that moment of violation, he sent his love and his comfort radiating through my little four year-old body. His giant hand, so full of light and radiance, dwarfed my smallness. We endured that moment together, the Creator and I, both tear-soaked and full of heart wrenching pain. Through my weakness, he gave me His own strength.


http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... e_6443.htm

Another suicide NDE, again positive:

The previous night, I had decided to commit suicide. When I got to school, I went and bought the pills. I went off by myself and swallowed them. After a while, I began to feel dizzy and nauseous. Soon I was aware that my legs were getting very weak and I then I fell down. At that moment I seemed to enter a dark and silent place, full of peace. Then I began to see images of my life, starting with the first day I went out walking with my present partner, then going backwards to times in my childhood. There were so many times of happiness!  And I kept watching as my life kept going backwards. For me this felt like a short time, but when I woke up, several hours had passed. I thought about this experience a lot, and I learned from it that good times have greater weight than bad ones. Now I believe in God with all my heart and I'm so grateful for this new opportunity in my life. I don't regret what I did, because that is what brought me to know my God.


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm

Positive NDE. She was in heaven even when she committed suicide:

I had attempted suicide by an overdose of drugs. The event of the suicide is hazy but the NDE or vision I had was very clear. I was in an ER room with at least one doctor and several nurses attending to me. I did not feel my soul separate from my body but I seemed to go from lying on the table to a grey cloudy landscape in an instant.

There was an indescribable all-encompassing feeling that God disapproved of my action. There was no shame or feeling of being threatened, just the strong feeling that God was not happy with my attempt at suicide. The greyness of the atmosphere combined with storm- like clouds was remarkable. I didn't feel threatened by it, though. I just observed it. I was outside this literal gate to heaven. I believe strongly in heaven but not this gate. It may have been more symbolic, I have no idea. It was an iron looking gate I was standing outside of that seemed to disappear into the grey clouds.

The gate itself was unremarkable, no pearls or anything like that. Two robed men were speaking to each other. They never addressed or looked directly at me, but they were discussing me. I knew the two men were St. Peter and St. Gabriel. I could not hear their entire conversation but I knew they were discussing whether it was my time to be admitted to heaven. St. Gabriel was telling St. Peter that I had not read The Gospel of Mark yet. St. Gabriel was holding a huge open book I assumed to be a Bible and they looked at it. It seemed as if Gabriel was convincing Peter I could not enter heaven yet but at the same time I knew St. Peter didn't want to let me in at that time. I was just an observer.


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/trish_r_possible_nde.htm

Its true that according to her God was not pleased but it was no Hell..

Again a good NDE when suicide:

Prior to my suicide attempt, I was hospitalized 5 times for anxiety and depression.  This began about 2003 - 3 years prior to trying to hurt myself.  I was able to keep my massage practice going, more or less, but was in a dark place  all the time... Nothing was helping, , not therapy or the variety of drugs my psychiatrist had prescribed.  I could not bear what I was putting my teenaged son through and my then husband.  Even with all my training in body work and emotional clearing, even with lengthy sessions of emotional clearing.  I  could not find relief from this horrible, depression and anxiety.  The night of the suicide attempt was the darkest of my life.  I was just praying for relief and was terrified.  My NDE - actually came back to me in a Cranio-Sacral Session - probably 6 months later.  I was in a place and was at the center of a circle surrounded by my departed family and other loved ones.  Beneath me was a carpet of red rose petals, several inches deep.  I was eye to eye with a being of light.  I was kneeling and communicating with this one without words - telepathically.  The thing was I associated this being as the Lord of Love ( Christ) and at the same time it was me talking to myself.  What was said to me was " Good job, Francine,  But , now you have to go back and finish what you started.  ( The good job part was on living through all I had lived through)


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm

I will not post every of them only links now:

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _d_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _d_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _l_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... th_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... us_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _r_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... e_5229.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... r_ndes.htm

I felt my body shutting down. I was scared of the  black void I was in, but found I was able to breathe. Then I felt calm. But I was brought back. I was angry about having to come back, because I had never felt that kind of joy while I was alive.


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... e_5228.htm

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _t_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _c_nde.htm

I felt a little frightened at first.  But then I let go and I felt the best feeling of serenity that I've ever had. It was like free falling.


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _a_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... e_6728.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm

New positive ones:

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... e_6728.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _n_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _s_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _l_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _r_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... e_5229.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... r_ndes.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _n_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _p_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _w_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... _c_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... le_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... 's_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... 's_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... 's_nde.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experien ... 's_nde.htm

These all are positive even when the person committed suicide.

Note: Again I am not encouraging people to commit suicide I only wanted to show that Parnia is wrong..
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #48  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:01 pm

Another person who is skeptical about this whole stuff. Even he writes that the whole study should have taken only 3 years:

There is a large 3 year study currently underway across 25 different hospitals/centres to examine the near death experiences of patients who suffer cardiac arrests. The researchers have decided that a good way to test whether patients who claim to have out of body experiences are really experiencing what they remember/claim will be to ask them about pictures which are going to be placed on a special shelving area visible only from the ceiling. This research is going to be carried out under the scrutiny of Dr. Sam Parnia from the University of Southhampton and is titled as the AWARE project.


Taken from: http://godknowswhat.wordpress.com/2009/ ... th-exists/

We now have the year 2013. Hmm and the study is 5 years in the making:

At this time, they anticipate being able to release the preliminary results obtained during the first five years of the study in September or October 2013 to mark the fifth anniversary of the launch of the study.


Taken from: http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=279

So again when there would be some hits it would already be out and when the hits come after a long time. It will be very strange and I will be very skeptical...

Now back to the blog. The author of the blog points out all the failures and hazards of the study in advance and his own feelings:

Now, at first glance this may seem like reasonable research, and it is certainly an interesting topic, but here’s the problems I see with it:

1. It is being conducted by Dr. Sam Parnia. Dr. Parnia has not conducted this study yet but has already appeared all across the media (including Richard & Judy) promoting it in a very sensationalist manner. He has even published a book on the topic! From interviews I’ve heard with him it’s clear he really wants there to be something going on but, more worryingly, he repeatedly misrepresents the science surrounding the issue.

In particular, he tends to make it sound as if there is a massive scientific controversy about the process of death when, in reality, there simply is not. Instead, there are a small group of scientists, typically with parapyschologist leanings, who have fringe theories about life after death and a host of anecdotal stories to support them. This is not generally the basis for a good scientific theory. Worryingly Dr. Parnia also frequently appears alongside these researchers agreeing with them enthusiastically.


Taken from: http://godknowswhat.wordpress.com/2009/ ... th-exists/

I have nothing to argue here only that he twists all the research more and more as it goes out. It already shows that Parnia knows little about NDEs and even said a lot of bad remarks on them like that people who commit suicide have hellish NDEs this is not so true like Parnia is making it claim.

However lets move on for the other criticism:

2. He envokes ‘quantum physics’ as a potential explanation for his positive results (which of course he hasn’t collected yet).


Taken from: http://godknowswhat.wordpress.com/2009/ ... th-exists/

Yup he has no results yet and he already has a explanation of the woo kind. Quantum physics is the answer to all woo problems...

I also doubt that Sam Parnia understands Quantum physics when he is a critical care physician and director of resuscitation research .

Sam Parnia, M.D., Ph.D. is a critical care physician and director of resuscitation research at the Stony Brook University School of Medicine in New York. He is recognized as an authority on the scientific study of death, the human mind–brain relationship, and near-death experience.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia

He also knows nothing about neuroscience like the Skeptic Dictionary is telling:

According to the alleged scientist himself,  Sam Parnia, ''the studies are very significant." I say alleged scientist because Sam is a doctor at Southampton General Hospital in England who studies near-death experiences. He is chairman of Horizon Research Foundation (formerly called the International Association of Near Death Studies), whose motto is "Science at the Horizon of Life." He is a clinical research fellow working towards a PhD in the molecular biology of asthma. He is a medical school graduate with specialties in internal medicine and respiratory illnesses. He is trained in medicine and is working on a Ph.D., but these hardly make one a scientist. And calling something science doesn't make it science any more than calling something a cigar makes it a cigar. So, these heart attack patients were not his patients, I assume. Thank goodness, because I don't know about you, but I don't think studying NDEs is an attribute most of us seek when we are in need of a cardiologist.


Taken from: http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/bunk16.html

Therefore when he is not a expert of both physics and neuroscience he should consider not to talk about them when people like Victor Steiner are telling the opposite what Parnia is telling:

Victor Stenger gets the last word, from his definitive takedown of quantum nonsense: “

The overwhelming weight of evidence, from seven decades of experimentation, shows not a hint of a violation of reductionist, local, discrete, nonsuperluminal, non-holistic relativity and quantum mechanics - with no fundamental involvement of human consciousness other than in our own subjective perception of whatever reality is out there. Of course our thinking processes have a strong influence on what we perceive. But to say that what we perceive therefore determines, or even controls, what is out there is without rational foundation. The world would be a far different place for all of us if it was just all in our heads - if we really could make our own reality as the New Agers believe. The fact that the world rarely is what we want it to be is the best evidence that we have little to say about it. The myth of quantum consciousness should take its place along with gods, unicorns, and dragons as yet another product of the fantasies of people unwilling to accept what science, reason, and their own eyes tell them about the world.


Taken from: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_consciousness

Also Victor Stenger is a physicist:

Victor John Stenger (born January 29, 1935) is an American particle physicist, philosopher, author, and religious skeptic.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_J._Stenger

Or here:

Victor J. Stenger is an American particle physicist, philosopher, skeptic, author, and outspoken atheist. He is the author of nine books on physics, atheism and skepticism as well as more than a dozen peer reviewed articles.


Taken from: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Victor_Stenger

So I am with Stenger who is better qualified in the field of physics then Parnia.

3. There is no indication that his researchers or the hospital staff will be prevented from seeing the images and indeed it would not be hard to look at the top of a shelf where pictures are being kept for a number of months. If people in the hospital know what is there, then there are many ways that patients can find out aside from having ‘out of body’ experiences. There is no indication that this is being controlled for or taken into consideration.


Taken from: http://godknowswhat.wordpress.com/2009/ ... th-exists/

This is a very relevant post and criticism.. I agree here completely. Even the skeptic dictionary is saying the same:

Note: it wasn't long after posting the above link to the news story about Parnias's experimental design that the following e-mail came in:

Signs were placed high up in an OR where only a floating spirit could read them? Give me a break! I've worked in hospitals, and operating rooms are regularly cleaned floor to ceiling and there are lots of bored people sitting around through the night waiting for an emergency. "So what's that thing got on it?" "I don't know. Let's grab a ladder out of the cleaning closet and find out!" I guarantee every worker stationed in the OR knows what those signs have on them soon after they were put there. A ladder and mirror is all it takes. So if one patient pops up and claims to have seen them? The typical ill-designed paranormal "test" that proves nothing except that the patient can talk to the hospital workers.


Taken from: http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html

4. From the interviews and articles I’ve read it seems that there are going to be a series of pictures on each shelf. This sounds ok but it is basically increasing the chances that people get hits simply by guessing. I am also curious as to how they will score hits and misses. For instance if someone says I saw a square object near something green would that count for a picture of a house? Interpretation by researchers is clearly going to be key here and if the researchers know what the pictures are then the chances of them leading the subject to a ‘correct’ answer even unintentionally should be an issue of significant concern- I sincerely doubt that this will even be controlled for.


Taken from: http://godknowswhat.wordpress.com/2009/ ... th-exists/

This is also extremely valid criticism. I am waiting how this will be taken care of also I want to add another one. Parnia or someone from the staff can also feed information during the test like when he is asking questions. This is also another problem. Like when Parnia is asking if someone saw a ship etc.. He can feed information to them like it happened several times in the past with these experiments when the interviewer was giving hints or informations..

5. Apparently not all the images are going to be on shelves visible only from the ceiling, some are simply going to be in ‘special places’ which patients will be able to see if they open their eyes. This Dr. Parnia explains, is not a silly idea because patients who are suffering cardiac arrest should not be able to look at anything . This sounds dubious to me and once again relies on patients being unable to find out information about pictures which are clearly visible to others at the hospital via any other route. The warning bells are going off in my head that Dr. Parnia seems to be hedging his bets, so that if he cannot get the result he wants from the shelving pictures he has another, better chance with these visible pictures.


Taken from: http://godknowswhat.wordpress.com/2009/ ... th-exists/

This is also a valid criticism...I agree here completely. Which shocked me a lot was this last sentence according to BBC he said this:

5. Dr. Parnia wrote in an article for the BBC:

“If after 36 months, hundreds of patients report being “out of body” yet no one can report seeing the images, then we must consider these reports to be nothing more than illusions.


Taken from: http://godknowswhat.wordpress.com/2009/ ... th-exists/

So we see 36 months have passed with no hits and the AWARE study is still on. He is a woo-master.. Sorry but he said this and he didn't stop it but sells books. So he is a woo-master..

Its even on the AWARE site:

During AWARE, investigators will place images strategically in hospital bays, such that they will only be visible by looking down from the ceiling and nowhere else. If after 36 months, hundreds of patients report being “out of body” yet no one can report seeing the images, then we must consider these reports to be nothing more than illusions. If on the other hand there are hundreds of positive reports, then we will have to redefine our understanding of the mind and brain during clinical death.


Taken from: http://www.horizonresearch.org/blog/tag ... xperience/

However the study still goes on....

Also the Neurocritic has something to say about Sam Parnia:

That's a pretty outrageous claim! Clinically dead for several hours? No brain activity the entire time? Even if anyone could emerge alive and conscious from such a state (unless it's a state of suspended animation, perhaps), they'd have severe brain damage (as we'll see below). There'd be no way they could have encoded their near-death experiences (NDEs), much less remembered any light at the end of a tunnel or a soothing presence drawing them home.

There may be a semantic problem here: the definition of “death.”

I haven't read the book, but the issue is described in a one-star review at Amazon:
The core of this linguistic mess is his inconsistent use of the word "death". At times he uses this term properly, as defined by the Uniform Determination of Death Act (UDDA, 1981): "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem is dead." This definition was developed in cooperation with the American Medical Association ... [etc.] and has been adopted by most states. It is the standard definition of death. [NOTE: I thought brain death is THE standard definition of death.] 1

Unfortunately, he also refers to "death" as cardiac arrest (e.g. pages 1, 2, 23, 42, 43, 128, 131, 139, 140, and many more). This definition of death is inconsistent with the UDDA because cardiac arrest is reversible in some cases. In fact, much of this book includes accounts of individuals who have suffered cardiac arrest and been resuscitated...


Taken from: http://neurocritic.blogspot.sk/2013/08/ ... ction.html

He even goes on why these people cannot be dead for such a long hours. Its all in this link: http://neurocritic.blogspot.sk/2013/08/ ... ction.html

So again another person shows that Sam Parnia is wrong and even calls him what he is a dualist:

Instead, Parnia is a mind-body dualist, believing that the soul (or self) can persist separately from the body for several hours at a time:

"It seems that when consciousness shuts down in death, psyche, or soul – by which I don't mean ghosts, I mean your individual self – persists for a least those hours before you are resuscitated. From which we might justifiably begin to conclude that the brain is acting as an intermediary to manifest your idea of soul or self but it may not be the source or originator of it… I think that the evidence is beginning to suggest that we should keep open our minds to the possibility that memory, while obviously a scientific entity of some kind – I'm not saying it is magic or anything like that – is not neuronal."


Taken from: http://neurocritic.blogspot.sk/2013/08/ ... ction.html
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #49  Postby Shen1986 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:08 am

Another positive one suicide NDE:

JC S' NDE


     As I laid in the emergency room, I hovered over my body looking down at myself. After realizing I was out of my body, I became about five years old and floated straight up to heaven, where I walked on huge red roses that gave off an incredible scent. There was Jesus standing there about 100 feet tall, with his right arm extended. He was glowing, with long brown hair, copper skin, and a long white robe. The feeling of love and being home was awesome. I reached up and put my hand in his. We spoke with our minds and he gave me a guided of heaven. The colors were awesome, peace, love, and beauty. As we walked, I turned to look back for my grandmother, and my dog Rusty, who I did not see. As I turned to look forward there was sheer curtain, with people standing there as far as far as the eye could see. Then I heard God say, you have to go back. I begged him to please let me stay, but he repeated, you have to go back. After seven days in a coma, I regained consciousness back into this world. What a rude awakening.

Any associated medications or substances with the potential to affect the experience:  Yes

     Explanation:  drug overdose

Was the experience difficult to express in words?  Yes

     What was it about the experience that makes it hard to communicate?  its beyond words to describe

At the time of the experience, was there an associated life threatening event?  Yes

     Describe:  attempted suicide


Taken from: http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/jc_s_nde.htm
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #50  Postby Shen1986 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:55 am

During a discussion which I was watching on a pro-parapsychology site Skeptiko I came across this where a user posted from Sam Parnias book a chapter which should negate his claim:

During AWARE, investigators will place images strategically in hospital bays, such that they will only be visible by looking down from the ceiling and nowhere else. If after 36 months, hundreds of patients report being “out of body” yet no one can report seeing the images, then we must consider these reports to be nothing more than illusions. If on the other hand there are hundreds of positive reports, then we will have to redefine our understanding of the mind and brain during clinical death.


Taken from: http://www.horizonresearch.org/blog/tag ... xperience/

So here is the post from a user with the name John:

John wrote:No, this isn't quite right. He has talked about the first 4 years of the AWARE study in his book, ERASING DEATH.....I have the book on kindle and supply the following extract....

"Interestingly and perhaps disappointedly, both out-of-body experiences reported to us so far have occurred in areas without images placed on shelves attached to the walls. Therefore, we have not yet been able to objectively ascertain the accuracy of people’s claims to “see” events from above. However, we are still actively conducting interviews, and it is possible there may be more out-of-body experiences reported. Closer examination of the two cases has also demonstrated another very interesting observation. Both cardiac arrest cases had been relatively short in duration (less than ten minutes), which I believe may turn out to be very significant. * As explained previously, if a cardiac arrest event is relatively short, then the postresuscitation inflammation and disease that normally engulf the brain and cause widespread damage (including damage to the memory circuits) are also relatively mild by comparison to someone with a prolonged cardiac arrest. This suggests that people who report profound ADEs, including out-of-body experiences, may perhaps be able to better recall their experiences simply because they had suffered less damage to their brains and specifically the memory circuits in the days and weeks after the cardiac arrest. Maybe many others also experienced an ADE but couldn’t recall the details of the experience due to their memories being wiped away by the extensive postresuscitation inflammation and damage that occur in the brain after a cardiac arrest. This may explain why 90 percent of people who survive a cardiac arrest usually say they have no memory of their cardiac arrests, and the remaining 10 percent usually have very sketchy memories with only a very small proportion having detailed recollections. The main finding, though, has been that the out-of-body experience is even rarer than we thought and seems to occur in less than 1 percent of survivors (0.1 percent of total cardiac arrests). This suggests that our original calculations will need to be revised and the study expanded, since after four thousand cardiac arrests, we had only two out-of-body experiences." - Dr Sam Parnia.

Hmmm, 99.9% of 4,000 patients had no recollection of an OBE. That white crow is very elusive.


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/224-john-searle ... /#comments

So now Parnia claims this after 4 years of his study. I see here one major problem:

First he believes the consciousness works independently with the brain but on the other hand he claims this:


Both cardiac arrest cases had been relatively short in duration (less than ten minutes), which I believe may turn out to be very significant. * As explained previously, if a cardiac arrest event is relatively short, then the postresuscitation inflammation and disease that normally engulf the brain and cause widespread damage (including damage to the memory circuits) are also relatively mild by comparison to someone with a prolonged cardiac arrest. This suggests that people who report profound ADEs, including out-of-body experiences, may perhaps be able to better recall their experiences simply because they had suffered less damage to their brains and specifically the memory circuits in the days and weeks after the cardiac arrest. Maybe many others also experienced an ADE but couldn’t recall the details of the experience due to their memories being wiped away by the extensive postresuscitation inflammation and damage that occur in the brain after a cardiac arrest.


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/224-john-searle ... /#comments

So now thanks to brain damage and brain circuits damage the person cannot recall a NDE or OBE? So now the brain is involved when he was not before involved?? This is odd to me.. So does Parnia believe in the dualism or what because he states that the brain is working here and involved in recording the memories.

The main finding, though, has been that the out-of-body experience is even rarer than we thought and seems to occur in less than 1 percent of survivors (0.1 percent of total cardiac arrests). This suggests that our original calculations will need to be revised and the study expanded, since after four thousand cardiac arrests, we had only two out-of-body experiences.


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/224-john-searle ... /#comments

Yes but at first Parnia claimed that there will be hundreds of verified OBEs. So this doesn't look good for him.

Again keep in mind that he at first told this:

During AWARE, investigators will place images strategically in hospital bays, such that they will only be visible by looking down from the ceiling and nowhere else. If after 36 months, hundreds of patients report being “out of body” yet no one can report seeing the images, then we must consider these reports to be nothing more than illusions. If on the other hand there are hundreds of positive reports, then we will have to redefine our understanding of the mind and brain during clinical death.


Taken from: http://www.horizonresearch.org/blog/tag ... xperience/

Also it is a nice argument and excuse why to continue the study and milk more money. Even the author of the post who brought his book is skeptical:

John wrote:Just the point that we do have the results. Out of 4,000 cases only two suspect OBE's. It's not looking statistically good for those who believe in a consciousness that can exist separately from the body.

But , of course, if they can just prove one case without anyone being able to demonstrate a methodological flaw, then they'll have William James's white crow.

However, personally, I don't think that crow will ever be found. But I'm willing to be surprised.


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/224-john-searle ... /#comments

Yes true that if there will be no flaws then they would have a white crow but it would also need to be replicated and if during the replication would be a flaw found then its not valid..
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #51  Postby Shen1986 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:30 am

New info:

EthanT wrote:Just came across this AWARE update on facebook:

"The initial results of the study will be presented in abbreviated format at the upcoming American Heart Association conference in November 2013 in Dallas. A more detailed report is being submitted for publication in a scientific journal and we anticipate it being released in the early New Year after undergoing peer review. We will place the results on the website as soon as they are published. A truncated summary will also appear in the upcoming revision of the book "Erasing Death" which is due to be published March 2014 in the USA. In the UK the book is called "The Lazarus Effect" and will also be published at the same time.
Sincerely, HRF"


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... -a-87.html

My thoughts:

This is peachy, really. First it will be presented on a conference nothing so special wow and the more detailed report will be released on the New Year? Another powerful delay nothing special again I suppose. Also lets not forget that Sam Parnia is now releasing a new book again:

A truncated summary will also appear in the upcoming revision of the book "Erasing Death" which is due to be published March 2014 in the USA. In the UK the book is called "The Lazarus Effect" and will also be published at the same time.


So Sam Parnia is milking money from AWARE. Again a new old book because its only a revision of his old book. He just wants to sell woo books nothing more. The whole AWARE affair is about selling books. Every update we get is with a new book he releases. This is just getting dump.

Also according to this thread there is nothing new in the AWARE study only resuscitation medicine:

typoz wrote:The New York Academy of Sciences
Wednesday, October 9, 2013.
Quote: Emergency medicine experts Lance Becker and Sam Parnia and neurosurgeon Stephan Mayer discuss key discoveries and emerging technologies in resuscitation science that are helping to bring back those on the brink of death, and the difficult questions and ethical dilemmas they sometimes confront during medical crises.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... mayer.html

According to this person who saw it nothing new is coming out of it. So no prove of the soul folks:

Plato's Cavern wrote:So to say: all the things that are precisely NOT interesting in NDEs.
I personnaly don't care that much about emergency medicine, CPR and resuscitation protocols.
I'm interested in what happens to the conscious self once the brain shuts down and rots away. Is there still something that lives on?
My 2 cents that if Parnia hasn't got more to tell about than resucitation techniques updates, it means there's nothing thrilling that came out of AWARE lately.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... mayer.html

Also the only thing interesting which came out from this dialogue is what skeptics have already claimed that a EEG is useless and that there is brain activity even a EEG is flat. Nothing to wonder here:

Max_B wrote:I enjoyed that, I was interested in the use of EEG Depth Electrodes (at around 49:00 onwards), which were continuing to measure electrical activity deep in the brain of Coma patients, when the surface EEG appears flat.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... yer-2.html

So again nothing surprising. A flat EEG doesn't mean a dead person. I hope now believers in NDEs cannot still claim that a flat EEG is a dead person. Really death is a process and nothing more.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #52  Postby sc0ne » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:42 pm

Stumbled onto this thread and just thought id post, he´s going to be presenting his initial findings at the Heart foundation meeting in November, along with an peer reviewed journal article in January.

Will be interesting to read, although most of you seem to have already made your minds up!
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #53  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:56 am

sc0ne wrote:Stumbled onto this thread and just thought id post, he´s going to be presenting his initial findings at the Heart foundation meeting in November, along with an peer reviewed journal article in January.

Will be interesting to read, although most of you seem to have already made your minds up!


Nope. I have not made up my mind. I am just criticizing his work because it seems to me that he is milking money from it and he is not honest. To this day Sam Parnia made several huge claims and none of them came true. So far AWARE has produced nothing because all the stuff he is preaching and claiming scientist already knows. Therefore if he has nothing more to show or give then I suppose that the whole AWARE study is a waste of money which could have been used elsewhere..

However I am waiting for his results but so far I am extremely skeptical because he brought nothing out only giant claims with no solid ground, only to sell his books..
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #54  Postby Whitedude » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:30 am

So far AWARE has produced nothing because all the stuff he is preaching and claiming scientist already knows. Therefore if he has nothing more to show or give then I suppose that the whole AWARE study is a waste of money which could have been used elsewhere.


I agree the aware study is nonsense. This is not new, these type of experiments have been going on for over 30 years with complete failure. Paranormal woo books since the 1970s have been talking about these type of experiments;

A major objective of the AWARE study is to test whether the perceptions reported by these patients can be verified. One method involves a visual target being placed near the ceiling where it can only be seen by someone reading it from above; patients who report OBEs are then asked to describe it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia

Nothing new. It's wishful thinking that parapsychologists keep on wasting time on this nonsense. The OBE is all in the mind, now just because it is all in the mind does not mean the OBE is not amazing! I have had one myself. For some reasons the woos want a paranormal explanation for everything.

Interesting blog post on the subject;

This sloppy methodology, subjective judging, and flat-out inaccuracy pervades parapsychological research in general and on OBEs specifically. It shouldn’t be a surprise that all the most striking claims of people gaining true information through OBEs are completely anecdotal, even hearsay – as in the famous case of the woman named Maria who allegedly saw a tennis shoe on a window ledge outside the hospital where she was having one. We have only the word of one person, a social worker named Kimberly Clark Sharp, that this OBE happened at all or that the shoe was there as described. Anecdotal accounts like this are impossible to test or verify. And so far, no rigorous, well-designed experiment has proven that people can acquire information this way at rates significantly greater than chance, much less that they can use it to do something genuinely useful, such as sending or receiving messages.

As with many other popular delusions, belief in OBEs is probably sustained in part by natural psychological phenomena which true believers have misunderstood (such as the role of sleep paralysis in alien abduction and haunting claims). The truth is, many people do have out-of-body experiences – that is to say, they have the experience of being outside their body. But that is not the same thing as saying that something actually leaves the body. Instead, these experiences appear to be nothing more than elaborate hallucinations caused by the brain misfiring.


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightat ... ions-xiii/

The tennis shoe example is hilarious, it's been repeated in many woo-books (though many change details of the story around). There's no evidence such an event ever occurred.

As I wrote on the other thread, the majority of OBE can be explained by lucid dreams and sleep paralysis. Why parapsychologists are still looking for a paranormal explanation is beyond me :lol:

Stumbled onto this thread and just thought id post, he´s going to be presenting his initial findings at the Heart foundation meeting in November, along with an peer reviewed journal article in January.

Will be interesting to read, although most of you seem to have already made your minds up!


Peer reviewed journal? More like a pseudoscience parapsychology journal. The only people who have made their minds up are the paranormal believers, they reject all scientific evidence on this subject and refuse a naturalistic explanation and still go on searching for a paranormal one.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #55  Postby sc0ne » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:55 am

Shen1986 wrote:
sc0ne wrote:Stumbled onto this thread and just thought id post, he´s going to be presenting his initial findings at the Heart foundation meeting in November, along with an peer reviewed journal article in January.

Will be interesting to read, although most of you seem to have already made your minds up!


Nope. I have not made up my mind. I am just criticizing his work because it seems to me that he is milking money from it and he is not honest. To this day Sam Parnia made several huge claims and none of them came true. So far AWARE has produced nothing because all the stuff he is preaching and claiming scientist already knows. Therefore if he has nothing more to show or give then I suppose that the whole AWARE study is a waste of money which could have been used elsewhere..

However I am waiting for his results but so far I am extremely skeptical because he brought nothing out only giant claims with no solid ground, only to sell his books..


I was mostly referring to some quite silly criticisms on different forums along the lines of "Sam Parnia's dad has passed away, therefore woo and true believer", something that would probably disqualify the great majority of middle aged scientists around the world.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #56  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:50 pm

sc0ne wrote:I was mostly referring to some quite silly criticisms on different forums along the lines of "Sam Parnia's dad has passed away, therefore woo and true believer", something that would probably disqualify the great majority of middle aged scientists around the world.


The criticism that Sam Parnia father passed away was towards that he is motivated into his belief. I know it is sad that someone dies but I think Sam Parnia became a believer thanks to the loss.. I know its not so valid criticism but it points to his motivation and why he wants it to be true..

However I stay by it if Parnia has some valid proof of a soul he should present it but so far nothing like this is happening and according to the information I so far have nothing like this will happen because it would be a revolution not only of science but of life itself which I doubt will happen because there is nothing like souls..
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #57  Postby sc0ne » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:49 pm

Shen1986 wrote:
sc0ne wrote:I was mostly referring to some quite silly criticisms on different forums along the lines of "Sam Parnia's dad has passed away, therefore woo and true believer", something that would probably disqualify the great majority of middle aged scientists around the world.


The criticism that Sam Parnia father passed away was towards that he is motivated into his belief. I know it is sad that someone dies but I think Sam Parnia became a believer thanks to the loss.. I know its not so valid criticism but it points to his motivation and why he wants it to be true..

However I stay by it if Parnia has some valid proof of a soul he should present it but so far nothing like this is happening and according to the information I so far have nothing like this will happen because it would be a revolution not only of science but of life itself which I doubt will happen because there is nothing like souls..


By the same logic any atheist American scientist would be motivated to bias towards materialism due to living in an religiously repressive environment for most of their lives.

Honestly though, most people have lost someone at some point, the criticism barely holds any water what so ever.

Anyhow, thought id link this if someone is interested.

http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/Vie ... 8353&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #58  Postby kennyc » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:53 pm

sc0ne wrote:..
By the same logic any atheist American scientist would be motivated to bias towards materialism due to living in an religiously repressive environment for most of their lives.
...



Religiously repressive environment? America?  :lol:   :lol:   :lol:

What alternate universe are you living in?
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #59  Postby kennyc » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:53 pm

sc0ne wrote:Stumbled onto this thread and just thought id post, he´s going to be presenting his initial findings at the Heart foundation meeting in November, along with an peer reviewed journal article in January.

Will be interesting to read, although most of you seem to have already made your minds up!


What Journal?
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #60  Postby kennyc » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:56 pm

sc0ne wrote:....
http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/Vie ... 8353&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}


That link seems to have passed on to the great beyond:

Our System cannot find the meeting you requested. If you would like to report this problem, please email Technical Support at support@abstractsonline.com and reference error number :

43-20131023-875

Any details you can provide will be appreciated.
Thank you for your assistance and we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #61  Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:31 pm

kennyc wrote:That link seems to have passed on to the great beyond:


Did it report a NDE on the way?
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #62  Postby kennyc » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:34 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
kennyc wrote:That link seems to have passed on to the great beyond:


Did it report a NDE on the way?



Check with Shen....  :D
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #63  Postby sc0ne » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:43 pm

Oops, try this one! http://bit.ly/HfsaT3
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #64  Postby sc0ne » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:53 pm

kennyc wrote:
sc0ne wrote:..
By the same logic any atheist American scientist would be motivated to bias towards materialism due to living in an religiously repressive environment for most of their lives.
...



Religiously repressive environment? America?  :lol:   :lol:   :lol:

What alternate universe are you living in?


OK, maybe religiously repressive is a bit of a big overstatement, but here in Europe we generally do not have hordes of mouth-breathing troglodytes basing their voting patterns on whether the president is religious or not. Nor people who try to blow abortion clinics up etc etc. I might be a little biased though, i was born and raised in Sweden which is the irreligious country on earth.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #65  Postby kennyc » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:10 pm

sc0ne wrote:
kennyc wrote:
sc0ne wrote:..
By the same logic any atheist American scientist would be motivated to bias towards materialism due to living in an religiously repressive environment for most of their lives.
...



Religiously repressive environment? America?  :lol:   :lol:   :lol:

What alternate universe are you living in?


OK, maybe religiously repressive is a bit of a big overstatement, but here in Europe we generally do not have hordes of mouth-breathing troglodytes basing their voting patterns on whether the president is religious or not. Nor people who try to blow abortion clinics up etc etc. I might be a little biased though, i was born and raised in Sweden which is the irreligious country on earth.



I think you are confused. Religiously Repressive to me would mean to repress religion, I think what you mean is Religiously Oppressive or Religiously Domineering...or controlling or something....
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #66  Postby sc0ne » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:38 pm

kennyc wrote:
sc0ne wrote:
kennyc wrote:
sc0ne wrote:..
By the same logic any atheist American scientist would be motivated to bias towards materialism due to living in an religiously repressive environment for most of their lives.
...



Religiously repressive environment? America?  :lol:   :lol:   :lol:

What alternate universe are you living in?


OK, maybe religiously repressive is a bit of a big overstatement, but here in Europe we generally do not have hordes of mouth-breathing troglodytes basing their voting patterns on whether the president is religious or not. Nor people who try to blow abortion clinics up etc etc. I might be a little biased though, i was born and raised in Sweden which is the irreligious country on earth.



I think you are confused. Religiously Repressive to me would mean to repress religion, I think what you mean is Religiously Oppressive or Religiously Domineering...or controlling or something....


Alright, sorry about the linguistic mishap there! Religiously Domineering was the wording i was looking for!

Thanks from:
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #67  Postby Gord » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:41 am

sc0ne wrote:http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAbstract.aspx?sKey=98ecd07e-214a-4bc4-9e2a-3e16692fdfb7&cKey=d6b5998d-9962-42c8-b184-a57d57ef8353&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}

Smoosh it up like this:  [url=http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAbstract.aspx?sKey=98ecd07e-214a-4bc4-9e2a-3e16692fdfb7&cKey=d6b5998d-9962-42c8-b184-a57d57ef8353&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}]smooshed[/url]

edit:  ah, bugger it all  :kicksdirt:
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #68  Postby Shen1986 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:27 am

This whole debate is useless. There are no hits. Its confirmed:

I came across this interview, which I believe is quite recent, with Dr Peter Fenwick.
Dr Peter Fenwick Interview | Spirit Today

As it seems, no study worldlide featuring hidden targets (AWARE, etc) has bred positive results as of yet.

I quote :

"Interviewer : Have the ‘numbers’ which are placed high up towards the ceiling in some testing labs or operating rooms throughout the world been seen by anyone yet?

Peter: Neither clearly nor repeatedly. So the simple answer is No."

We at least now have an answer as to the "target image" part of the AWARE study, which results everyone here is looking forward to reading about.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... nwick.html

Peter Fenwick is working on the AWARE study with Parnia and the interview was done in:

Dr Peter Fenwick Interview

by Grahame Mackenzie on October 20, 2013

Can End of Life Experiences
Teach us More About Consciousness?


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

Here is also the original quote with some woo on top:

Question: Yes, when my dog died here in Japan, my wife and I had to sift through the rather large bones to choose the ones we wanted to keep. Due to the low heat of the fire, his cranium was completely intact, and to this day we still can’t close the urn properly. It is all part of the ritual here. Moving on from Japan now. Have the ‘numbers’ which are placed high up towards the ceiling in some testing labs or operating rooms throughout the world been seen by anyone yet?

Peter: Neither clearly nor repeatedly. So the simple answer is No.

Question: Many people report having psychic abilities after an NDE. What is your opinion on this phenomenon?

Peter: I’m simply driven by the data. I’ve come across NDErs who report having become more psychically sensitive after their experiences, and I have no reason to disbelieve them. It’s worth remembering that there is a small but clear literature on the development of psychic abilities after head injury. There are also reports in the esoteric literature of people who have had spontaneous experiences of wide mystical states who have subsequently developed psychic abilities. So the link between altered mental states, psychic ability and trauma is well recognised.


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

Yes people have psychic powers after NDE.. Yeah in their heads for sure. However lets continue..

Question: Notwithstanding the criticism of the Pam Reynolds case, how evidential do you think the Pam Reynolds case is?

Peter: There are certain clear difficulties about the onset of the experience as it seems to have occurred before major cooling had happened. Having said that, there are also very good pointers to her veridical perception under anaesthesia being accurate. And the deeper part of Pamela Reynolds experience after she had gone down the tunnel etc certainly seems to have occurred after cessation of brain function during the period of cooling and blood withdrawal from the brain.

A much better case, which comes from the AWARE study in the Southampton Hospital, is described in Dr. Sam Parnia’s book The Lazarus Effect. Here a patient with diabetes felt unwell, had cardiac pain and was rushed to a cardiac catheter lab. Under medical supervision he spontaneously developed ventricular fibrillation and required two sets of shocks from a defibrillator, interspersed by a round of cardio-respiratory resuscitation before the heart restarted. There is thus a very clear time-line of his level of consciousness, which was zero and lasted 3-5 minutes before his heart was restarted. He reports being called to the ceiling by an angelic being, hearing the commands from the defibrillator and watching the resuscitation process, all at a time when he was clinically dead. It is very difficult to argue in this case that the events the patient reported did not occur when he was brain dead, and I think we should accept this as a prima facie case of an NDE occurring during brain death.


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

There is no brain death during a NDE. Its only clinical death. We have evidence that there is brain activity even after a flat EEG:

Researchers from the University of Montreal and their colleagues have found brain activity beyond a flat line EEG, which they have called Nu-complexes (from the Greek letter n). According to existing scientific data, researchers and doctors had established that beyond the so-called "flat line" (flat electroencephalogram or EEG), there is nothing at all, no brain activity, no possibility of life. This major discovery suggests that there is a whole new frontier in animal and human brain functioning.


Taken from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 180246.htm

This is getting ridiculous. Fenwick is repeating the same lines over and over again as any believer.

Question: Dr Parnia has done some great work. Thanks for bringing that case to our attention. Moving forward now, do you think the world that we live in is more deeply interconnected and more complex than the simple materialistic model we have at present?

Peter: Be very careful about this question, because quantum mechanics tells us that every particle within the universe is interconnected with every other one. So the universe is, even in the standard model of quantum mechanics, highly inter-connected. Do I believe that individual minds are more interconnected than mainstream science would have us believe? I don’t take a position of belief, but follow the data, which is very clear, and shows that there is interconnection between minds and there are effects of mind obtaining information at a distance.


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

Yes again Quantum mechanics. I dont believe Fenwick knows a pip about Quantum mechanics he is a neuropsychologist and not a physicist so again a fail.

Just take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fenw ... ychologist)

I will not debunk the whole article now. Maybe later but if someone is interested here is the link:

http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

However beware its full of woo and again no hits so it doesn't look good for them..
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #69  Postby Shen1986 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:28 am

More on Peter Fenwick:

He is a lover of Zen culture:

I was able to combine my interests in this new area of brain research with my interest in Japanese Zen culture – and we were also able to spend time with our son and daughter in law and get to know our two grandsons who were both born while we were working there.


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

William James again inspired him:

Peter: In my 20s and 30s I spent time searching out those people who had wider and in my mind special states of consciousness, which suggested that they had access to different realms of reality, and just the brain substance could not contain these realms. William James, a Harvard psychologist, had already come to this view in his work on the nature of religious experience. As I listened to descriptions of transcendent and ecstatic states and read more widely in the Eastern mystical literature, it became apparent that our day-to-day conscious experience was only a fraction of what was possible. As yet we have no clear understanding either of the nature of consciousness or of its range.


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

William James is full of woo:

James was the first president of the American branch of the Society for Psychical Research. The lending of his name made Leonora Piper a famous medium. He was soon convinced that Piper knew things she could only have discovered by supernatural means.[36] James expressed his belief that Piper's mediumistic abilities were genuine, saying, "If you wish to upset the law that all crows are black, it is enough if you prove that one crow is white. My white crow is Mrs. Piper.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ja ... ciationism

According to Fenwick Japan is better because they are more superstitious:

Peter: Yes, there are cultural differences reported in the NDE. We still need more cross-cultural studies; hunter-gatherers for example, have simpler experiences which are much more closely linked to their culture. In India two studies show the occurrence of Indian deities and there are a number of other differences which distinguish the NDE in that culture from those in the West. There is a very good summary of research into the NDE over the last 30 years (The Handbook of Near-Death studies, 2009. Ed. Janice Holden).

The difficulty in the acceptance of approaching death experiences by the scientific community in Japan is even more pronounced than in the West. In our studies in the UK and Holland approaching death experiences are frequently reported by nurses and carers, but not nearly as generally acknowledged by the medical profession they are counter-culture to our current mechanistic science. When I tried to set up a similar study in Japan I found that there seemed to be an even stronger cultural bias on the part of the medical profession not to talk about death. When the first hospice was set up in Tokyo I am told that it was two years before it was finally accepted by the hospice staff that part of the process of dying was coming to terms with it. But instead of discussing and accepting death, it was much more likely to be ignored. However, outside the medical profession, Japan’s attitude to death is in many ways better than our own, in that it still has many rituals associated with death, and special ceremonies for the remembrance of dead relatives. At Riken there was a special thanksgiving service once a year when all those animals whose lives had been sacrificed to scientific research were remembered and honoured.


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

Ian Stevenson is a good scientist and his data needs a better look, oh yeah:

Peter: This is a profoundly deep question and one that has been asked throughout the ages. To begin with, what do we think survives? Is it our ego-centred personality to which we are all attached? Or is it to some essence of us which carries more fundamental values? Since we do not yet know from a scientific point of view what the exact nature of consciousness is, it would seem presumptive to give a view either way about survival. More work needs to be done on end of life experiences before one can be certain that those features which point to survival can only be explained by that hypothesis. There are a number of other studies which seem to point in this direction. The line that the late Professor Ian Stevenson took concerning reincarnation has been confirmed by his successor, Professor Tucker. This data certainly needs close examination.


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

Ian Stevenson:

http://www.skepdic.com/stevenson.html
http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=481
http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=482
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Steven ... ss_Chotkin

John Tucker:

Jim Tucker is the medical director of the Child and Family Psychiatry Clinic, and Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia School of Medicine.[1] His main research interests are children who seem to remember previous lives, and prenatal and birth memories.[2] He is the author of Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children’s Memories of Previous Lives, which presents an overview of over 40 years of reincarnation research at the Division of Perceptual Studies.[3] Tucker, a board-certified child psychiatrist, worked for several years on this research with Ian Stevenson before taking over upon Stevenson’s retirement in 2002.[4][5][6]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_B._Tucker

Tucker worked with Ian Stevenson so he confirmed what??

Also Tucker uses again Quantum mechanics which he doesn't understand:

Although critics have argued there is no physical explanation for the survival of personality, Tucker suggests that quantum mechanics may offer a mechanism by which memories and emotions could carry over from one life to another.[8][9] He argues that since the act of observation collapses wave equations, consciousness may not be merely a by-product of the physical brain but rather a separate entity in the universe that impinges on the physical. Tucker argues that viewing consciousness as a fundamental, non-physical, part of the universe makes it possible to conceive of it continuing to exist after the death of the physical brain.[26] He provides the analogy of a television set and the television transmission; the television is required to decode the signal, but it does not create the signal. In a similar way the brain may be required for consciousness to express itself, but may not be the source of consciousness. [27] On the other hand Susan Huelga, a lecturer in quantum mechanics at the University of Hertfordshire, notes that brain dynamics are highly complex, and she finds that there is no more evidence that quantum mechanics is relevant in this field than that it is relevant regarding whether or not God exists.[28]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_B._Tuc ... n_research

Lets continue:

2. Question: Any pet hates?

Peter: Dogma and dogmatic assertions by people who refuse to examine anything which challenges their belief system.


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

Yes but Fenwick is dogmatic himself. He believes that consciousness lives after death. This he doesn't tell. We can even see it here on his wikipedia page:

He has been criticised by the medical community for claiming that human consciousness can survive bodily death.[14] Fenwick argues that human consciousness may be more than just a function of the brain.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fenw ... ychologist)

His favorite people:

8. Question: Yes, he appears to be doing a great job at White Crow Books. Okay, it’s that fictional party time again. You can invite five people past or present to a dinner party at your place. Absolutely anyone. Who do you invite?

Peter: William James, Arthur Koestler, Hercule Poirot, Jane Goodall and the Dalai Lama.


Taken from: http://www.spiritoday.com/dr-peter-fenwick-interview/

Arthur Koestler:

Mysticism and a fascination with the paranormal imbued much of his later work. Koestler was known for endorsing a number of paranormal subjects such as extrasensory perception, psychokinesis and telepathy. His book The Roots of Coincidence (1974) claims the answer to such paranormal phenomena may be found in theoretical physics. The book mentions yet another line of unconventional research by Paul Kammerer, the theory of coincidence or synchronicity. He also presents critically the related writings of Carl Jung. More controversial were Koestler's levitation and telepathy studies and experiments.

During the final years of his life he established the KIB Society (with Brian Inglis and Tony Bloomfield), to sponsor paranormal research (which, after his death, was renamed the Koestler Parapsychology Unit) and is located at the University of Edinburgh, in Scotland.[68]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Koestler#Paranormal

So he is a complete woo proponent. Nothing more to tell.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #70  Postby Shen1986 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:33 am

sc0ne wrote:
Shen1986 wrote:
sc0ne wrote:I was mostly referring to some quite silly criticisms on different forums along the lines of "Sam Parnia's dad has passed away, therefore woo and true believer", something that would probably disqualify the great majority of middle aged scientists around the world.


The criticism that Sam Parnia father passed away was towards that he is motivated into his belief. I know it is sad that someone dies but I think Sam Parnia became a believer thanks to the loss.. I know its not so valid criticism but it points to his motivation and why he wants it to be true..

However I stay by it if Parnia has some valid proof of a soul he should present it but so far nothing like this is happening and according to the information I so far have nothing like this will happen because it would be a revolution not only of science but of life itself which I doubt will happen because there is nothing like souls..


By the same logic any atheist American scientist would be motivated to bias towards materialism due to living in an religiously repressive environment for most of their lives.

Honestly though, most people have lost someone at some point, the criticism barely holds any water what so ever.

Anyhow, thought id link this if someone is interested.

http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/Vie ... 8353&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}



I wrote there it doesn't hold water. It only points out why he is so interested in it. However Fenwick and Sam Parnia are believers so they are also biased. They are dualists and both of them. They both believe in a separated consciousness from the brain which was pointed out by several people and several web-pages and critics. So again it doesn't hold water that their experiments are good..

Just read my other posts from other people and from other links. You will see that they are also biased. Look on Neurocritic where he also claims he is a dualist. All the links are in this thread.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #71  Postby Shen1986 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:33 pm

Sam Parnia will come with his first results on:

Sunday, Nov 17, 2013, 7:00 AM - 8:30 AM


Taken from: http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/Vie ... 8353&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}

Here you can see it here:

http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAbstract.aspx?

sKey=98ecd07e-214a-4bc4-9e2a-3e16692fdfb7&cKey=d6b5998d-9962-42c8-b184-

a57d57ef8353&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}

It will be in Dallas 2013 conference. We will see what it will be but according to the silentness of the whole issue I think nothing bombastic or great will come out of it.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #72  Postby Shen1986 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:14 am

The abstract and again no hits:

Abstract:         Awareness during anesthesia is characterized by auditory perceptions, pain, and dream like states and associated with PTSD. Few studies have examined awareness during cardiac arrest. Although, these two phenomena share similarities, there are also differences. In particular during CA, patients may report visual perceptions (‘seeing’ and recalling events). Furthermore, some experiences are associated with the scientifically imprecise entity of ‘near death experiences’ (NDE). Methods: A prospective cohort study at 25 hospitals in the US, UK and Austria to determine the incidence of awareness (i.e. visual or auditory) during CA as well as the characteristics of patients’ recollections was conducted. We further examined the feasibility of testing the accuracy of visual and auditory recollections using standardized tests by pre-installing shelves containing images as well as instructing research staff to provide set auditory cues during CPR where possible. Survivors underwent a structured interview which included questions on visual and auditory impressions as well as the Greyson questionnaire to quantify experiences typically classified as NDE (score >=7) Results: 2060 cardiac arrest events were recorded with a reported survival of 32% (n=657). 23% (n=152) were interviewed. Information on visual or auditory impressions during CA was available on 89% of interviewed subjects. Of these, 37 % responded that they had experienced visual and/or auditory impressions during their time of unconsciousness and CA. Among those with auditory and/or visual impressions, 70% had a Greyson score >0 and 30% had a Greyson score >=7, consistent with a conventionally defined “NDE”. Two had visual recollections of being able to ‘see’ events, and one accurately described details corresponding with a verifiable period of at least 3-5 minutes of CA. Placement of images corresponded with only 33% of all CA locations. The two patients did not have CA in areas with images. Conclusions: Auditory and/or visual experiences during unconsciousness may be a relatively common phenomenon. Even though these experiences may not reflect the conventionally defined NDE and may be different, they may indicate that consciousness may not cease as expected with cessation of heartbeat during CA


Taken from: http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/Vie ... B00DE45%7D

Here is the whole abstract:

http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/Vie ... B00DE45%7D

As for this

Two had visual recollections of being able to ‘see’ events, and one accurately described details corresponding with a verifiable period of at least 3-5 minutes of CA.


Taken from: http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/Vie ... B00DE45%7D


This shows that they could hear during their CA and thanks to this they could perceive the informations and describe them. However as a again there are no hits..
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #73  Postby Shen1986 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:06 am

It seems that the whole Dallas Conference was nothing and that some of the "super mysterious" results will again be shown in the New Year along with his new book. Its official he is just milking money and has nothing to show. He had two cases out of 1000 people. Two cases which had not even verified the signs and which were maybe already in his book:

EthanT wrote:I don't think they were technically hits. I think they're the ones he already mentioned in his book that did not have the targets installed in the rooms. Don't get me wrong though, I thought the one veridical OBE was remarkable. Probably part of what's selling Parnia on the afterlife.


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threads/a ... 192/page-2

Also the results will be in New Year:

EthanT wrote:The lady who runs the AWARE page on Facebook, just received this email from Sam Parnia. Sounds like nothing until at least the New Year. I wonder what's going to be on this page he creates?

Dear Ms Lathar

Thank you for your email and your interest in our work. While I appreciate your keen enthusiasm for the subject and also for putting your time into creating a public page related to me, however as you must appreciate I was not informed of this and nor did I consent to it. When the right time comes I plan to create a relevant page that discusses the issues you are interested in. However in the meantime I would appreciate if you would kindly withdraw the page you have created. Of course those who are interested in the subject will be able to access the page I create which I hope will be in the New Year. For a subject as important and sensitive as this it is important to have one official channel where people can get correct information and then discuss it.

I will also make a full public announcement of the study results when it is published. It is not an area that should be exposed or discussed without the full evidence. Again we hope this to be in the New Year.

Many thanks in advance for your co-operation and understanding.

With all best wishes

Sam

https://www.facebook.com/groups/171555442909311/


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threads/a ... 192/page-2

So again Sam Parnia has nothing and according to what was released so far I am even more skeptical and skeptical because he is just making a study that will never end and this was made millions of times over with no results. Even Fenwick said that so the whole AWARE business will sooner or later fall apart I think.

Also Sam Parnia is claiming this:

Two had visual recollections of being able to ‘see’ events, and one accurately described details corresponding with a verifiable period of at least 3-5 minutes of CA.


Taken from: http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/Vie ... B00DE45%7D

I didn't wanted to get into this but already some believers are jumping the gun that NDEs happen during the CA:

Hjorton wrote:No, but did you not read it carefully? It states that in one case, the NDEr was able to accurately describe what was happening in the surroundings during a time period of at least 3-5 minutes when we know and it was documented that the patient was undergoing cardiac arrest. The whole notion that the NDE is occurring before or after the cardiac arrest can be thoroughly put to rest if that is the case, as can the notion that they are being produced by the brain.


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threads/a ... #post-3045

Hjortron wrote:They were as much of a hit as they could be, given that there were no targets placed near the roof in those hospitals.


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threads/a ... #post-3045

Hjortron wrote:They will dismiss it even when that happens as well, as the people you're more likely talking about are ideologically committed debunkers rather than careful and open-minded skeptics. Remember, we are skeptics, but we do change our mind by good evidence, instead of finding excuses to ignore it because it contradicts our worldview.


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threads/a ... #post-3045

First thing Hjortron is wrong. We have only the testimony of Sam Parnia and no one else. He claims that it happened during 3-5 minutes but how does he know? Was he recording that person? Was the person alive and well when his heart was stooped screaming I am alive and I can see what is happening. All the data we have are from Parnia himself. Also I doubt that the person could not hear. The brain was not dead and it could have normally recorded the whole affair even under unconsciousness. Therefore he could remember something. Also Hjortron is making a quick analogy that thanks to one case all NDEs must happen like this. There is no evidence for this. Second he could have remember it because he was not completely dead, the patient could have been in a semi conscious state or his brain picked up few things and third we have only the information from Sam Parnia and no one else and there are so far no hits therefore it is weak.  Also vegetative patients can pick up information so why not someone who is in this state?

As for the close minded people he claims that skeptics are this is a ad hominem. Skeptics would like to believe in this stuff but we need more evidence.  

Also what I found Hjortron himself is a quite believer:

Hjortron wrote:The greatest proof of Shermer's utter disregard for the truth is that he brings up talking points what has been refuted time and time again already. He's a rent-a-skeptic for the money, not because he passionately wants to find out the truth on these matters, and I'm smiling when I'm reading his nonsense, "He can't actually be serious".

He can't.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post148754

Hjortron wrote:Yeah, and I don't believe in that kind of stuff. I mean, I believe there are various planes that are accessible only as more enlightened and loving beings, but I don't think it's some kind of exclusive club that its members are smug about for being admitted into. I know that I'd love to visit the lesser levels all the time, if there were such a hierarchy.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post139915

More:

http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... -real.html

Hjortron wrote:Indeed. However, the cause is not always the same. I think some materialists are dogmatic (Dawkins, Dennett), others are close-minded and can't even entertain/understand the alternative (Woerlee, Blackmore), others are intellectually smug and love their worldview and the peer support that comes with it (Novella, many philosophers), and some still might have an honest inquisitive mind yet are helplessly paranoid (Augustine).


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post120890

This person calls skeptics close minded when he himself is close minded??

Or here:

Hjortron wrote:Welcome to my life  Once you really believe that death is a transition to a wonderful afterlife, staying alive is somewhat like being hungry and sitting in front of a pizza that you won't get to eat just yet. While you're "fine" not eating it, the saliva is accumulating and you can't help spending a great deal of your time thinking about finally getting to eat that delicious pizza.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post114973

Ok I am done with this..

I am not here to slander no one. Only pointing out that he calls someone close minded when he the user Hjortron already made up his mind and therefore his whole criticism is not valid.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #74  Postby Shen1986 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:48 am

Sam Parnia will appear on a discussion according to this site on 11 of December:

Experiencing Death: An Insider's Perspective Moderated by Steve Paulson
Executive Producer, To the Best of Our Knowledge Featuring: Peter Fenwick, MBBCh, DPM, FRCPsych Neuropsychiatrist and Clinical Neurophysiologist, St Thomas' Hospital President, Horizon Research Foundation Mary C. Neal, MD Orthopedic Surgeon and drowning survivor Author, To Heaven and Back Kevin Nelson, MD Professor of Neurology, University of Kentucky Medical Center Author, The Spiritual Doorway in the Brain Sam Parnia, MD, PhD Assistant Professor of Critical Care Medicine Director of Resuscitation Research, State University of New York Author, Erasing Death.


Taken from: http://www.nourfoundation.com/events/re ... erspective

For millennia, human beings have wondered what happens when we die. What is the first-person experience of dying and being brought back to life? Technological advances in resuscitation science have now added an intriguing new chapter to the literature of "out of body" or "near death experiences" by eliciting detailed and vivid accounts of those who have approached the threshold of death. However we might seek to explain such phenomena, it is no longer tenable to simply dismiss this accumulating body of firsthand experiences. Can these experiences be explained through the lens of biology and neuroscience?


Taken from: http://www.nourfoundation.com/events/re ... erspective

Date: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 Time: 7:00 PM - 8:30 PMReception to Follow Location: The New York Academy of Sciences 7 World Trade Center, 250 Greenwich Street, 40th Floor Tickets: Available Exclusively at NYAS.


Taken from: http://www.nourfoundation.com/events/re ... erspective

So again this is another show to earn some bucks. Parnia is saying nothing only for those who pay for it. If he has such shocking results at hand why he is milking so much money from it?? This is not how normal and high quality research is done. The Higgs Boson was reported in the media and was reported in normal science papers. Parnia should also report his findings and not just sell books, seminars and I don't know what from it.  I am therefore more and more skeptical.. If someone has such great results he should already publish them and not circle around a hot soup like a little child. I think he has nothing and only is milking money and the more he uses his fame out of AWARE the more I become skeptical.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #75  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:25 pm

One user on the mind-energy forum posted one of the verdical OBEs that Sam Parnia was talking about in his book:

March 11th, 2013, 05:34 PM
Buggy713  
Senior Member        

This is a detail overview of the case from his book

The man Parnia interviews is named Mr.A, Mr.A had a OBE in 2011 and Parnia tracks him down in 2012 for more details and see's if he can verify his recollections with the patients medical records. He had a mild heart attack one day that was slow on his system. Eventually an ambluence comes to pick him up and by this time he seems semiconcious and really tired. A nurse boards the ambluence named Sarah who tries to keep him awake. they bring him to the hosiptal and they take him to the catheterization laboratory and this point the nurse put a sterile drape over him and he was lying flat on his back. They had place the drape as a form partition approxtimately level on his upper body so he couldn't see the nurses working around his groin infront of him, they were going to inject something in his groin to get his heart working, well the numb him up and inject him and all of a sudden he has a cardiac arrest (VF pattern) on the table and immedialty loses conciousness. The team of nurses install an automated external defibrillator He next recalls hearing a electronic voice say "shock the patient" "shock the patient", and then he sees a women ( a spiritual being, she has "curly hair", he felt like she cared for him and was there for a reason etc) in the far upper corner of the room ( not being blocked by the drape), and she becker to him and he thinks I can't get up there and then he zooms to that position next to her. He is able to see the backs of two people standing a the foot of his bed from a birds eye point of view. It is the nurse Sarah, and a man that he did not hear or see enter the room. He is able to describe visually both in detail, and he verifies the man's appearence himself when the man comes to visit him in his ward. The OBE was short and he soons wakes up in his bed. Parnia goes back and checks his medical records and finds out that he did have an arrest on site and the AED did shock him 2 times (No chest compressions were listed in his medical report). Parnia states the cardiac arrest was atleast 3-5 minutes because the AED takes 2-3 minutes before each shock, it takes some time for it to anaylsis the heart pattern and deliver the shock. So the fact that he heard it both times ( the machine), when minutes after his heart stopped is medically inexplicable, another thing that is paranormal is the fact that he was able to accurately describe a man who he had never seen or heard before his OBE that was out of his normal line of sight. Mr.A also describes something other things about the man that Parnia later verified with staff members. It is very impressive and just adds to the other strong cases,


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post142805

So lets take a skeptical look on this:

The first problem I see is this:

The man Parnia interviews is named Mr.A, Mr.A had a OBE in 2011 and Parnia tracks him down in 2012 for more details and see's if he can verify his recollections with the patients medical records.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post142805

Parnia interviewed the man after 1 year?? WTF? This is a bad error and we could hardly know what the man received for new informations because after he was taken care off the nurses and doctor that do inform him what he had taken through.

Here is the second problem:

He had a mild heart attack one day that was slow on his system. Eventually an ambluence comes to pick him up and by this time he seems semiconcious and really tired. A nurse boards the ambluence named Sarah who tries to keep him awake. they bring him to the hosiptal and they take him to the catheterization laboratory and this point the nurse put a sterile drape over him and he was lying flat on his back. They had place the drape as a form partition approxtimately level on his upper body so he couldn't see the nurses working around his groin infront of him, they were going to inject something in his groin to get his heart working, well the numb him up and inject him and all of a sudden he has a cardiac arrest (VF pattern) on the table and immedialty loses conciousness.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post142805

He was brought in in a semiconcious(I think he meant semiconscious) and really tired. Thanks to this he could have observed all the information around himself and even remember them even when he was so tired and semiconscious. He could remember bits of informations where the brain added the missing parts.

Another problem:

The team of nurses install an automated external defibrillator He next recalls hearing a electronic voice say "shock the patient" "shock the patient", and then he sees a women ( a spiritual being, she has "curly hair", he felt like she cared for him and was there for a reason etc) in the far upper corner of the room ( not being blocked by the drape), and she becker to him and he thinks I can't get up there and then he zooms to that position next to her. He is able to see the backs of two people standing a the foot of his bed from a birds eye point of view. It is the nurse Sarah, and a man that he did not hear or see enter the room. He is able to describe visually both in detail, and he verifies the man's appearence himself when the man comes to visit him in his ward. The OBE was short and he soons wakes up in his bed.


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post142805


Here we see that his brain could have been functioning. We have now vegetative patients who can remember what has happened or learn. Second there is a problem because his memories could have been mixed and he was brought semiconscious to begin with. A last problem is that the OBE was short. I also think that Dr. Steven Novella wrote a good thing about OBE which here I agree and is fitting to add here:

First, this is further evidence that OOB experiences are not mystical or spiritual experiences, nor are they evidence for dualism. OOB experiences are a neurological phenomenon. We have known for a long time that they can be triggered by drugs, by hypoxia (lack of oxygen to the brain), sensory deprivation, seizures, and even magnetic stimulation of certain brain structures. These new experiments show that OOB experiences can be triggered by essentially tricking the brain with a false yet compelling image of the self outside our body. The correlation of the image of the virtual self being touched and the physical sensation of the touch was enough to confuse the brain and disrupt the process that normally gives us a sensation of being inside our body.

And this is a key concept to understanding these experiments – before one can ask the question, “why do some people have OOB experiences?” we have to ask the more basic question, “why do we feel that we are inside our bodies?” Neuroscientists have learned to ask these questions, rather than taking them for granted. Everything we feel and experience (according to the neuro-materialist paradigm) requires brain structures and function that cause them – even the most basic components of our sense of self, such as the subjective feeling that we are inside our bodies, living behind our eyes. In exploring the OOB experience neuroscientists are really exploring the neurology of the in-body experience.

What these latest studies confirm, therefore, is that the brain incorporates the parallel processing of our visual map of the world, including our image of ourselves in the world, with our physical sensation of self. These streams are combined to give us a seamless experience of living inside our bodies.


Taken from: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... -to-earth/

This shows that he was in a shock but his brain was working. It happens even in children who suffered abuse and project their minds out of body when they are remembering the abuse. There is nothing paranormal here.

Parnia goes back and checks his medical records and finds out that he did have an arrest on site and the AED did shock him 2 times (No chest compressions were listed in his medical report). Parnia states the cardiac arrest was atleast 3-5 minutes because the AED takes 2-3 minutes before each shock, it takes some time for it to anaylsis the heart pattern and deliver the shock. So the fact that he heard it both times ( the machine), when minutes after his heart stopped is medically inexplicable, another thing that is paranormal is the fact that he was able to accurately describe a man who he had never seen or heard before his OBE that was out of his normal line of sight. Mr.A also describes something other things about the man that Parnia later verified with staff members. It is very impressive and just adds to the other strong cases,


Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-p ... post142805

This is a weak case. It shows again that its not a mystery. The person who wrote this or even Sam Parnia should read this:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... -to-earth/

Conclusion: This whole OBE which is one of his best is bad. The person had not his ears shut and we now know that even after a flat-EEG the brain is working and he could hear that means he had some information basis. Second we know that vegetative patients can have some form of consciousness and even learn. Third it was recorded a year after the whole events and we know how memories are tricky. Fourth OBEs are now normal explained. Fifth the patient was brought in semiconscious. So all in all its a weak NDE and bring no new informations or a proof of a soul. If this is the best Sam Parnia has then its weak.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #76  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:50 am

Here is a new interview with Sam Parnia. I will look at it later on.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cus ... ife-review

So my thoughts on this interview:

The interview starts normally:

Things got a bit testy at the the New York Academy of Sciences last week, as scientists debated whether near-death experiences exist and what they might teach about the process of dying -- and about the possibility of coming back from death.


Taken from: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cus ... ife-review

Dr. Kevin Nelson brings to the discussion the normal scientific look which is great and shows what we already know and that Near-Death experiences are really near-death and not after death like some people would like to believe:

The term itself is confusing, said Kevin Nelson, a neuroscientist at the University of Kentucky and author of The Spiritual Doorway in the Brain (which is also the title of his blog on Psychology Today, which has been dormant for the past couple of years). No one returns from the dead, Nelson said. "These are NEAR-death experiences, these are not return-from-death experiences. Brain death is one thing, but that's not what's happening here. In these cases the brain is very much alive and very much active." When people seem to be returning to life after a near-death experience, he said, they've just reached the brink of clinical death. They haven't crossed over. "There's no coming back from clinical death."


Dr. Sam Parnia goes again with his woo that these experiences happen after death. He is a total woo master. This is not true. He just does not want to listen to normal thoughts:

Yes there is, countered Sam Parnia, chief of resuscitation research at SUNY Stony Brook and author of Erasing Death. "Some people DO go over the edge and are brought back," he said stiffly. "Modern CPR allows physicians to restart the heart in people after they have gone beyond the traditional threshold of death. More and more people are being brought back to life, either because they are very close to death or because they have temporarily gone beyond the traditional threshold."


Taken from: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cus ... ife-review

Some information about Fenwick. Nothing special:

The event, co-sponsored by the Nour Foundation and Wisconsin Public Radio's syndicated show "To the Best of Our Knowledge," was the third of a four-part lecture series at the New York Academy of Sciences called "Rethinking Mortality." Also on the panel was Peter Fenwick, a retired neuroscientist from Great Britain who has co-authored several papers with Parnia, as well as his own pop-sci summary of his research on 300 people with near-death experiences, The Truth in the Light. (He is also, though his NYAS bio didn't mention this, president of the Horizon Foundation, which supports research into near-death experiences, including a major study being conducted by Parnia.) Fenwick added some wry British levity to the discussion as he described his research findings. Most of his subjects, he said, go down a tunnel, toward a beam of light and a lovely place where they meet dead relatives and conduct a life review, just reaching some sort of a border before they're sent back. "I like to think of the place they go to as an English country garden," he said.


Taken from: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cus ... ife-review

Here we have even a woman who had a NDE:

The fourth panelist, orthopedic surgeon Mary Neal of Jackson Hole, was the only one who got spiritual in her language, as she described her own near-death experience after being submerged in a kayak in a raging river in Chile; she drowned and was without oxygen for maybe 30 minutes, she said. "I felt my spirit peeling away from my body, felt my spirit rising out of the river" and meeting "beings" who were "overjoyed" to see her, she said. "I knew they could take me down this incredibly beautiful pathway toward this great domed structure that I knew was the point of no return --- and I could hardly wait." She said she didn't want to come back to earth, but her friends' resuscitation efforts forced her to.

In the 14 years since her near-death experience, her ideas about death have changed. "My own definition of death," she said, "is when the spirit leaves the body."


Taken from: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cus ... ife-review

I think Kevin Nelson brought this to a end:

To which Kevin Nelson responded:"That's acceptable, but it's not science."


Taken from: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cus ... ife-review

Conclusion: What to say. Sam Parnia is just preaching his woo. He will never accept that his work is just collecting anecdotes. Another problem is that he does not know what is clinical death and what is brain death. Another problem is even when he knows the differences he has jumped on the bandwagon of woo and is preaching this. Its pathetic. I think Kevin Nelson pointed some good stuff out. There is really nothing to discuss here if Sam Parnia has not the hits. This is useless to discuss because only the hits would prove his point of view and nothing more. I will also take a look on the video but later on because it is very long.

Here is also the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

Here is what they are talking about. It is from hearing:

- The interviewer admits he is biased because he worked on NDEs.
- Peter Fenwick: There is a common agreement of NDEs what they are - Greyson scale on 7 points.
- Peter Fenwick: NDEs happen when you are frightened, happen spontaneously when you are not Near-Death.  
-  Kevin Nelson - Near-Death experiences happen Near-Death not brain death and not brain death. It is just clinical death. Triggers for NDE can be also triggers like fainting.
- Kevin Nelson - there is no coming back from clinical back because you are not brain dead.
- Sam Parnia - People have tried to reverse death. Death was stopped breathing and when the heart stop beating. He then goes with the history of resuscitation. He claims that all NDEs are universal. This is not true.
- Sam Parnia - is saying that it is valid what Kevin Nelson is saying.
- Kevin Nelson - Death is death and it is irreversible.  Clinical death is near-death.
- Sam Parnia - the people go beyond death in clinical death. That is the criteria in this country. They have not developed the brain death protocol. People are talking clinical death.  
- Kevin Nelson - We are talking about the brain here.
- Mary Neal - everything has his own definition of death and we are going not come with a acceptable definition death. We cannot define death.
- Kevin Nelson - We are talking about the experience then we are talking about the experience of the brain.
- Peter Fenwick - (17:09) There are cultural components. There are some differences in NDEs when it happens in another country other then America. In India would not be a tunnel and go down a tunnel. There are much simpler in primitive hunting gathering experiences - Kannu and paddled for three days.  
- Peter Fenwick - There are specific cultural phenomena in NDEs.
- Mary Neal - She is talking about the story of her NDE. It was in Chile and went Kayaking and she was a avid Kayaker. When she came to the first drop and started to drop and when she saw the bottom. (21:04)She was going into Sunday school as a child (child of the 1950s). She would respond yes if someone would ask her if she believes in god but before this experience she would not be a believer but would have the religion of the intellect. She would not be called a religious person. She was  drowning. The she had a normal NDE that everything would be fine. She was under water 40 minutes according to her friends. Love in NDE and was in heaven. She did not tell her story for many years. (27:12)
- Interviewer to Mary Neal -  (27:22) I sure we will come back to some of the details of your story. You said that you were brought up as a Christian. You maybe did not have such a strong belief but certainly you had sense. But Did do you think that your religious background as a Christian has shaped the nature of  this experience?
- Mary Neal  - I do to some degree.(27:41 time). I believe there is one god.I believe that god speak to us that we will understand and that we are guided by gods messengers. She then goes what speaks to her. She thinks that what we are influences us or something like that.
- Peter Fenwick  - (29:07) Life review are mainly in western style NDEs. 10 Percent of people will have a NDE something like that. Second that religion has nothing to do with NDEs because everyone has a NDE. Even a atheist.
- Mary Neal  - (29:53) She is saying that Peter Fenwick is claiming that everyone has these experiences and they are all similar. She  saying that not all people have this experience and that is important because one of the explanation is that this is the dying brain and it is a physiologic experience. She even makes a example: If you broke your leg I will tell you the physiology and everyone is going to have a similar experience. 100 percent but the fact is that 100 percent people who are near-death experience do not have this experience and if it was purely a physiological experience everyone would have it and it would be similar. (30:49)
- Interviewer - I want to turn to Kevin now who wrote a book which tries to explain this experiences through physiologically.  
- Kevin Nelson - (30:58)Using a broken leg is not a great parallel when we are talking about the brain. There are shared elements because we have shared physiologies. We all walk around with the same brain that we have in common with our species but there are cultural differences as pointed out by Peter Fenwick. There are age related differences like children who have NDEs who more likely see wizards, castles and clouds or maybe Jesus. Raymond Moody who wrote a book about NDEs and coined the term NDE wrote a book where people say Elvis Presley in NDEs. Do people in New Guinea see Elvis Presley a question to Peter Fenwick and my guess is not. We are bringing our life experiences to this dramatic life event. It does not matter how the brain works. The real value is how the NDE transformed Mary and that is the most important thing. The physiological basis of the experience does not take it away but it enhances it. It does not hurt to know a little about the mystery.
- Peter Fenwick  - (32:01) Your guess is quite correct.
- Interviewer - Asks about atheists and Ndes.
- Peter Fenwick - (33: 13) Atheists have these experiences. We had two atheists and one did report that he was pure energy and no angelic beings but came to a source full of love. He interpreted it this way. The second met only dead relatives but not angelic beings. That no belief plays no role in not happening the experience.
- Interviewer - (34:18) Ask about OBEs.
- Sam Parnia - (34:45) NDEs they are hard to find and we do not know how near-death the person is or how critically ill these people were. It is a few difficulties we had. I would call it deep mystical religious experiences when they were very sick or were critically ill or were going through the threshold of dead.  Second he is talking that we do not have records how these people were sick and the problem why there is so much debate among scientists are that people are lumping a lot of different experiences under the same umbrella term. People who have different sicknesses like meningitides, hard bleeding and is going to die have different physiological processes and mixing it. When we go into OBEs this is again the issue. He then goes to talk about Mary and that she had a OBE which he calls visual awareness but people are lumping other things like creating optical illusions like pointing a camera behind a persons head and putting goggles on your eyes that you cannot see anything and the only vision you can only have is what the camera is showing and leaving you that as for many hours so your brain begins to believe that you are seeing only the reality behind your head and then coming along to attack you with a hammer or the camera and you are staggering to be attacked  and labeling that as a OBE. So that is not the traditional definition of a OBE but OBEs were described in cardiac arrest patients and it seems that people are actually be able accurately  to report what was being said,what was being done and that happens during a flat line EEG. I seen cases. One case in particular which I was astonished by where a colleague of mine told me(37:35) had not been giving any sings of life(this is not completely written word by word only to get the idea) and the patient was certified dead and left in the room and they have left the person and they noticed 20 minutes later that the patient looks different and the heart has been restarted and the patient recalled everything  told the whole conversation.
- Interviewer - (37:58) Is not the question if the brain is not still active?
- Sam Parnia - We are mixing together different experiences. There are people who had not flat-linned and did not went through the cardiac arrest. There are cases where the patient flat lined in the heart and even brain perspective. They are able to tell us everything what is happening but their brains are not working.
- Interviewer - Ask Kevin how does he explain this.
- Kevin Nelson - (38:49) OBEs are very common.  1 in 20 people going to have a OBE in their lifetime. Why are they so common? These OBEs happen when people are going to faint. He is telling about a plane fighter who had a OBE when flying and then became a neurologist because he had this OBE when he was making a sharp turn. OBEs happen when we are blanking REM consciousness and waking up. We have three types of consciousness. 1 - awake and 2 types of sleep - non-REM sleep and REM sleep. OBEs are a part of REM system. During the REM state a part of the brain which synthesizes all our experiences is turned off. It takes information from our inner ear, it takes our vision information and it takes our body information where is out sensing to be that means where our foot is to be. This all comes into this one area and if you disturb this area or when you point it off like we do in REM sleep you can have a OBE. (41:15)
- Interviewer - Why would you have a a sensation hovering over your body?
- Kevin Nelson - (41:21) There are many kind of OBEs experiences like looking behind you, in front on the side, on top OBEs. Why above that needs a further thought. He is talking about a Switzerland scientist who used a electrode on a brain and the person was in a OBE and went up and down according to the switch if it was on and off (this could be Olaf Blanke and his OBE studies). Nelson then continues to say that neurologist knew that from the 40s when it happened during surgery. He is then saying that there OBEs the same like in REMs then there are in NDEs or something like that.
- Interviewer - (42:49) Do you Peter except this explanation for OBEs?
- Peter Fenwick - (42:51) Not much. Some things I agree is that they are very common and doubt about that and that ordinary people will have OBEs and those to me are not terrible interesting. What is interesting for me are the OBEs in cardiac arrest. In cardiac arrest we know what the brain states are. They perceive what is going around them when their brain is not functioning. They can get verdical information and if that is true then the brain and mid are separated. There is nothing in our science today which claims that the brain and mind can separate because science says brain creates mind. They get information also going through walls and so on. This the data. He then goes to 5 dimensions and so on. This is another way of thinking about these phenomena. He claims that some will claim I can explain it in different ways but when you just stick to the data it rises some interesting questions.
- Interviewer - (46:06) Ask Kevin what he thinks about it.
- Kevin Nelson - (46:20) That people who have a cardiac arrest their eyes open up to which Sam Parnia protests and says I deal with them every week and they are always closed it is one thing I can assure you. He replies that why are you not looking at the right face. However Nelson claims that anesthesiologists claim that the eyes open half up and then down. People are taking in more visually informations and even thanks to the sound that you may think.(Sam Parnia does not agree) Second  he claims that during neurological damage the first thing is damaged are memories and that are the last thing to recover as well. He then goes to say about brain memory and is talking that our memory is very faulty and very suggestible and weak. In short that our memories are not so strong. He even says that a lot of evidence is for this mountains of evidence.
- Interviewer - (48:07): The big question is the mind the product of the brain? Which is the standard model of science today. Then he asks about AWARE and Sam Parnia.
- Sam Parnia - (49:02) - Not right now. I deal with cardiac arrest every week and have resuscitated hundred patients and its my bread and butter. He is claiming we are not using the same terms and things. Cardiac arrest is understood very well. He then goes on to explain cardiac arrest. He then claims that when there is no blood in the brain then the brain stops functioning. When we do resuscitation we can get only 5 percent of blood into the brain. The brain thanks to this the brain remains flat lined and the brain does not function. He is the talking about transit. He claims that we have thousands or even millions of people who had these experiences in the world from doctors to all kind of people. He is claiming that no cortex is working and we have a paradox because during NDEs people describe their environment. There is the AWARE where they study the recollections of these people .(51:36) The results will be soon. They have found thanks to 20 experts and not only Sam Parnia. The data suggest in cardiac arrest that the OBEs are not hallucinations and they are not consistent what we call a hallucination. Furthermore they managed to demonstrate that our consciousness disappears from the external view  and the final thing is that when you talk to people after NDE they are expressing different memories. They are telling about memories who had NDEs which take part week or two later in the intensive care unit. We take these people.
- Mary Neal  - (53:13) One of the things she is taking as something different is that a NDE is different because she is remembering the NDE as it has now happened in the present tense and that it has a different quality from any other experience. It is a different experience and memory to which even Sam Parnia agrees because he is shaking his head to yes. That it is not a recollection and that she thinks that NDEs are not recollections and that even the studies who tried to replicate these had similarities but the NDEs were different and that even it is from a neurological standpoint a mystery because no memories are formed in that time. She even has a example of the day her son died but the NDE remains the same.
- Kevin Nelson - (55:09)  There is the Fight or flight. He starts that the Dostojevsky  is example of his execution which was also strong which he wrote later on.
- Mary Neal -  (55:39) I and those 500 stories and they decided to return and I did not read about a person who wanted to return voluntarily. No one wants to go back.
- Peter Fenwick -  (56:13) I do not think that is true. I have a number of people who wanted to go back. One had a child who had 6 years old. She had a NDE and she wanted to get back of the child because her husband was not able to do something.
- Sam Parnia - (57:04) Here he is again pushing his after death experiences not NDE because NDEs are unscientific according to him. He would say that Mary had a death experience and not NDE. Kevin Nelson is talking about a different experience that many human experiences have a overlap but that does not mean they are the same thing. He then goes on with cardiac arrest and then with the question if a human mind can exist without the brain? The evidence challenges this according to Parnia because no memory is going on and no consciousness is going on. The he goes with the analogy of a computer and memory. He then goes that there are questions that consciousness may exist beyond death.
- Interviewer - (58:42)  What will make Kevin to accept that mind can exist beyond the brain?
- Kevin Nelson - (59:03) Kevin the cites Carl Sagan and if he can be more specific the interviewer asks. He claims that these are subjective experiences. These are hard to objectively verify. He claims there can be such a study done.

They then go to ask questions from the audience:

Mary is there any physiological explanation for the fact that you didnt suffer any brain damage after going so long without oxygen.

- Mary Neal - 1:00:12 I spend many months for a alternative explanation but no. The water was not cold, I was not young, and I had not Sam Parnias expertise. She claims that it was outside of the boundaries of science that she survived.

Can science ever prove that NDEs are valid given, that they are subjective?

- Peter Fenwick - 1:00:57: He made a long speech and then came with that we could put people into scanners to scan their brains but ethical committees would not be pleased.
- Sam Parnia - 1: 02:57: Sam Parnia goes to say that every era has boundaries that many scientists do not look upon more further then just these boundaries. This means every era is researching its own stuff. NDEs are beyond our world view of this era. Sam Parnia admits that for him consciousness is the soul of the Ancient Greeks. He then continues with cardiac arrest. Then he goes to cool down the body into ice. Again it is based on claims of the patients. He then goes with the targets and hits that there could be set targets to view upon.
- Interviewer - 1:05: 24: NDEs can happen when the person is coming out of the coma, cardiac arrest etc.. and the doctors assume that they were unconscious.
- Sam Parnia - 1: 05:28: That is a very good point. The experience is occurring when the brain goes back online. He then goes to say that a person had consciousness 3-5 minute period in the AWARE study when the brain was not functioning and rather then the brain was coming back online but you could not do that because there are times when you have to give medication and so on.
- Kevin Nelson - 1: 06:15 First you cannot do is to reproduce the context of the NDEs and is the fear of death. That does not mean we cannot have human models for NDEs which we already do. A neurologist from Germany Lampert in 1994 made experiments with students and let them experience sinketri on 42 students. These students reported the same experiences like in Raymond Moodys book. We already have a model but we cannot put it in the context of the fear of the dying because the context is very important.

Is there any data that conclusively  proves that consciousness can exist outside of the body during a NDEs

- Peter Fenwick - 1:07:25 - At the level we have to have it. We dont have it yet. There is a lot of data which is suggestive and it is not absolutely certain. He then goes to talk about how NDEs help to understand consciousness. They cannot get funding for it and cannot get the experiments to do what they would like to do.
- Kevin Nelson - 1: 08:43 I generally agree on this. Even when the media is interesting in this there is no funding institution in this. People do not die on NDEs so even the reviews do not know in which section should they put this in. Even in private founding and it is sad because there would be a lot more science to be done here.
- Mary Neal - 1:09:22 It is even more difficult to collect these stories. Most people do not want to talk about NDEs. Thanks to the media more people are beginning to be more comfortable to talk about it because of the awareness about NDEs. The problem is talking about these stories. The problem is also with the cards which is a great idea but even those people who come back would not discuss the cards because they are not interested in it because she has no interested in coming back. It is hard to design a study which would prove this out of body consciousness.  Peter Fenwick then says it is our technology now.

Are there any other ways of studying the disassociation of mind and brain besides NDEs?

- Kevin Nelson - 1: 10:50 - People can have OBEs if you want. You can make yourself faint. You can develop lucid dreaming and REM sleep which causes that you turn off the part of the brain which controls your sense of self in a dream.

- Peter Fenwick - 1:11:48 - NDEs bring a model but again this will not bring funding. He has done a lot of work on lucid dreaming. The first papers were on lucid dreamers. He says that lucid dreamers do not produce what Kevin has said.

Does physics provide any insight into NDEs because someone mentioned a 5th dimension:

- Peter Fenwick - 1:13:47 - That came from me. This was because a PhD. thesis if NDEs are correct of reality of a student. He then jumps to Quantum Mechanics. Quantum Mechanics does recognize that we can be separately exist.

All taken from:

Experiencing Death: An Insider's Perspective

All taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

It is all written like I heard it so there can be some errors and some stuff I wrote only the main idea.

So I promised to have a look at it. I have no some free time. First I will just take a look on Mary Neal:

The problem with Mary Neals NDE is that its just a normal NDE. She was raised Catholic:

As we can see here:

- Mary Neal - She is talking about the story of her NDE. It was in Chile and went Kayaking and she was a avid Kayaker. When she came to the first drop and started to drop and when she saw the bottom. (21:04)She was going into Sunday school as a child (child of the 1950s). She would respond yes if someone would ask her if she believes in god but before this experience she would not be a believer but would have the religion of the intellect. She would not be called a religious person. She was  drowning. The she had a normal NDE that everything would be fine. She was under water 40 minutes according to her friends. Love in NDE and was in heaven. She did not tell her story for many years. (27:12)
- Interviewer to Mary Neal -  (27:22) I sure we will come back to some of the details of your story. You said that you were brought up as a Christian. You maybe did not have such a strong belief but certainly you had sense. But Did do you think that your religious background as a Christian has shaped the nature of  this experience?
- Mary Neal  - I do to some degree.(27:41 time).

Taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

Therefore it is not a surprise. The only puzzling part here is this:

Mary is there any physiological explanation for the fact that you didnt suffer any brain damage after going so long without oxygen.

- Mary Neal - 1:00:12 I spend many months for a alternative explanation but no. The water was not cold, I was not young, and I had not Sam Parnias expertise. She claims that it was outside of the boundaries of science that she survived.

It may be a puzzle to science however she was under water according to her claims 40 minutes. I think that this is overestimated. It could have been less time. Even when it was so long. There are people who survived a long time underwater and are Ok. Here is a example with a quick google search:

The little boy was doing what 2-year-olds do, which is to say he couldn’t sit still — couldn’t sit at all, really — and anything left lying around was going to end up on the floor.

What made this totally normal behavior remarkable is that just six weeks ago, the same boy was pulled from a wrecked car after spending nearly 20 minutes submerged in an Ohio creek.

“He’s almost back to himself,” Troy Adams’ mother, Laura Adams, told TODAY’s Matt Lauer Tuesday in New York. As she said that, Troy was busy scattering scripts on the floor and inspecting everything in sight.

Adams said that Troy still has some recovery ahead of him, but doctors think that he’ll quickly regain all of his functions as he chases his twin sister, Lexi, around, trying to keep up with her.


Taken from: http://www.today.com/id/36190954/#.UrGpC0fbFQB

MRIs show that Troy’s brain is normal, although he still has some difficulty swallowing and was on a feeding tube during more than a month in the hospital and its rehab center.


Taken from: http://www.today.com/id/36190954/#.UrGpC0fbFQB

Or here:

An Arizona 2-year-old boy had made a full recovery after his heart stopped for almost 40 minutes. Released from the hospital after a week, Caleb Teodorescu now runs circles around his family's living room, acting like any other toddler. Doctors say he has no long-term medical or brain injuries.


Taken from: http://www.12newsnow.com/story/16200067 ... underwater

"What was shocking was his quick recovery and his going-home state. The average person may not notice anything wrong with him at all. In a couple months you wouldn't even notice what he went through," Philpot told ABC News.


Taken from: http://www.12newsnow.com/story/16200067 ... underwater

I know she claims she is not young and so on but when she goes to kayaking she had to have a strong body. Even a world record man can survive in water for 22 minutes:

Tom Sietas (born 12 January 1977 in Hamburg, Germany) is a freediver. He specializes in the static apnea event, holding his breath under water, and the dynamic apnea event, swimming the greatest possible distance underwater without breathing. Sietas started free diving in the year 2000. Since then he has set a large number of world records and won many titles, including taking the world record from magician David Blaine about four and a half months after his much-publicised achievement in mid-2008. Sietas has gone on to add over 5 minutes to that record, which as of early 2013 stands at 22:22min.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sietas

So it again more shows that we know little about the body itself. Also her NDE and some things in her book don't follow up:

Neal depicts in her book a world in which human souls existed prior to coming into the world, and persist after departure. The reason for our current bodily existence becomes somewhat puzzling, but Neal suggests that it is because we have something we need to learn from the experience. But that in turn sits oddly with the joint emphasis on this being a universe full of divine/angelic “nudgings” to which it is apparently important to respond, and yet in which it seems as though everything that happens, whether seemingly good or ill, is for the best, and part of a divine plan, which is at times depicted as alterable but at other times seems not to be.

A worldview of this sort presents many puzzles and seemingly unanswerable questions. Neal believes that she was brought back from death to be there for her family to cope with the later death of their son. But surely that makes no sense whatsoever – it would have been just as straightforward to spare her her accident, and have the son survive his own accident after a near-death experience.

The book highlights the fact that, if we look for the good in the pattern of life that is woven by the intersection of human lives, we will find it. And I do not disagree in the slightest. But I do think that, in making a personal God the weaver who tugs and at times forces the threads into a foreordained pattern, it actually undermines the attributes of God that Neal herself wants to emphasize, including most importantly love. A God who micromanages an adult’s kayaking accident to ensure her survival, but not the careless running down of her son by a texting driver, or perhaps who micromanages both to at times reduce and at times intensify human agony, does not seem to provide anything other than personal comfort for one who, like Neal, wants to find comfort in the idea that such events are supernaturally meaningful.

But for me, an “explanation” that can fit any evidence is not an explanation, and a God whose mercy and providence are posited as ensuring Neal’s survival down to the last detail, and yet supposedly as also foreordaining her son’s death before age 18, only to grant him a reprieve, and then take it away again, and yet who in other instances micromanages even the breaking of an ankle in order to bring about a meeting, does not seem to me to offer comfort, or a God who is “loving” in anything like what we mean by that term, or indeed anything at all.


Taken from: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringo ... -neal.html

So to me Mary Neals NDE is no proof of a loving god or even a afterlife. She was even wrong sometimes even Fenwick showed this:

- Mary Neal -  (55:39) I and those 500 stories and they decided to return and I did not read about a person who wanted to return voluntarily. No one wants to go back.
- Peter Fenwick -  (56:13) I do not think that is true. I have a number of people who wanted to go back. One had a child who had 6 years old. She had a NDE and she wanted to get back of the child because her husband was not able to do something.

Taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

Conclusion of Mary Neals NDE:

For her NDE this is again no proof it is a story. Nothing more to say here.
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #77  Postby Shen1986 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:56 pm

The debate:

The whole debate was nice. I really enjoyed it. I however must say that I was more with Kevin Nelson even when some of his answers were strange like the one with cardiac arrest patient who could see. I could not find anything which would support this claim but I heard things like that. However in many things he was right even when there he was not right. Parnia on the other hand tried to shift the whole discussion about OBEs and NDEs that they are something else which is not true. They are the same like Nelson is saying there is no difference between a OBE and the illusions that the scientists are doing. This even more confirms it that the "sense of being in our body" is thanks to all the feelings we can touch and see and our brain creates this illusion. There is also another problem:

- Sam Parnia - (34:45) NDEs they are hard to find and we do not know how near-death the person is or how critically ill these people were. It is a few difficulties we had. I would call it deep mystical religious experiences when they were very sick or were critically ill or were going through the threshold of dead. Second he is talking that we do not have records how these people were sick and the problem why there is so much debate among scientists are that people are lumping a lot of different experiences under the same umbrella term. People who have different sicknesses like meningitides, hard bleeding and is going to die have different physiological processes and mixing it. When we go into OBEs this is again the issue. He then goes to talk about Mary and that she had a OBE which he calls visual awareness but people are lumping other things like creating optical illusions like pointing a camera behind a persons head and putting goggles on your eyes that you cannot see anything and the only vision you can only have is what the camera is showing and leaving you that as for many hours so your brain begins to believe that you are seeing only the reality behind your head and then coming along to attack you with a hammer or the camera and you are staggering to be attacked and labeling that as a OBE. So that is not the traditional definition of a OBE but OBEs were described in cardiac arrest patients and it seems that people are actually be able accurately to report what was being said,what was being done and that happens during a flat line EEG. I seen cases. One case in particular which I was astonished by where a colleague of mine told me(37:35) had not been giving any sings of life(this is not completely written word by word only to get the idea) and the patient was certified dead and left in the room and they have left the person and they noticed 20 minutes later that the patient looks different and the heart has been restarted and the patient recalled everything told the whole conversation.

Taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

The problem here is that Sam Parnia was not seeing this he just heard this from a colleague:

So that is not the traditional definition of a OBE but OBEs were described in cardiac arrest patients and it seems that people are actually be able accurately to report what was being said,what was being done and that happens during a flat line EEG. I seen cases. One case in particular which I was astonished by where a colleague of mine told me(37:35) had not been giving any sings of life(this is not completely written word by word only to get the idea) and the patient was certified dead and left in the room and they have left the person and they noticed 20 minutes later that the patient looks different and the heart has been restarted and the patient recalled everything told the whole conversation.

Taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

- Sam Parnia - (49:02) - Not right now. I deal with cardiac arrest every week and have resuscitated hundred patients and its my bread and butter. He is claiming we are not using the same terms and things. Cardiac arrest is understood very well. He then goes on to explain cardiac arrest. He then claims that when there is no blood in the brain then the brain stops functioning. When we do resuscitation we can get only 5 percent of blood into the brain. The brain thanks to this the brain remains flat lined and the brain does not function. He is the talking about transit. He claims that we have thousands or even millions of people who had these experiences in the world from doctors to all kind of people. He is claiming that no cortex is working and we have a paradox because during NDEs people describe their environment. There is the AWARE where they study the recollections of these people .(51:36) The results will be soon. They have found thanks to 20 experts and not only Sam Parnia. The data suggest in cardiac arrest that the OBEs are not hallucinations and they are not consistent what we call a hallucination. Furthermore they managed to demonstrate that our consciousness disappears from the external view and the final thing is that when you talk to people after NDE they are expressing different memories. They are telling about memories who had NDEs which take part week or two later in the intensive care unit. We take these people.

Taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

This is all what he was preaching all along. This is nothing new. Also the problem is that even Fenwick did not claim that they have total evidence of consciousness survival:

Is there any data that conclusively proves that consciousness can exist outside of the body during a NDEs

- Peter Fenwick - 1:07:25 - At the level we have to have it. We dont have it yet. There is a lot of data which is suggestive and it is not absolutely certain. He then goes to talk about how NDEs help to understand consciousness. They cannot get funding for it and cannot get the experiments to do what they would like to do.

Taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

Second problem is that nothing was said about the hidden objects or cards. Sam Parnia was silent about this and it seems that besides the problems of funding where the cards would not be present was nothing said. Also another problem is like Mary  Neal has pointed out that it is very hard to create a study which would prove something like dualism and that the brain survives death:

- Mary Neal - 1:09:22 It is even more difficult to collect these stories. Most people do not want to talk about NDEs. Thanks to the media more people are beginning to be more comfortable to talk about it because of the awareness about NDEs. The problem is talking about these stories. The problem is also with the cards which is a great idea but even those people who come back would not discuss the cards because they are not interested in it because she has no interested in coming back. It is hard to design a study which would prove this out of body consciousness. Peter Fenwick then says it is our technology now.

Taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

Also Peter Fenwick quickly jumps to Quantum Mechanics which is a error and shows woo:

- Peter Fenwick - 1:13:47 - That came from me. This was because a PhD. thesis if NDEs are correct of reality of a student. He then jumps to Quantum Mechanics. Quantum Mechanics does recognize that we can be separately exist.

Taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

Another problem is that Sam Parnia is preaching his after death experiences because of a flat EEG. The flat EEG means nothing because there is already this study which shows a alive brain even after a flat EEG:

Sep. 18, 2013 — Researchers from the University of Montreal and their colleagues have found brain activity beyond a flat line EEG, which they have called Nu-complexes (from the Greek letter n). According to existing scientific data, researchers and doctors had established that beyond the so-called "flat line" (flat electroencephalogram or EEG), there is nothing at all, no brain activity, no possibility of life. This major discovery suggests that there is a whole new frontier in animal and human brain functioning.


Taken from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 180246.htm

Also this partly destroys the flat EEG myth:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 153553.htm


However the problem is that even Sam Parnia only claims that the data only challenge the materialistic world view. It can turn out that people can hear or see in some sense during NDEs and it still does not prove dualism or survival of the mind after death. Also however there is the problem he is pushing that these are not NDEs but Death experiences which is wrong and even Nelson pointed this out in the beginning:

- Sam Parnia - (57:04) Here he is again pushing his after death experiences not NDE because NDEs are unscientific according to him. He would say that Mary had a death experience and not NDE. Kevin Nelson is talking about a different experience that many human experiences have a overlap but that does not mean they are the same thing. He then goes on with cardiac arrest and then with the question if a human mind can exist without the brain? The evidence challenges this according to Parnia because no memory is going on and no consciousness is going on. The he goes with the analogy of a computer and memory. He then goes that there are questions that consciousness may exist beyond death.


Taken from this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

Nelson was right that people even saw Elvis Presley in NDEs:

People having near-death experiences are often greeted by someone - usually someone they deeply love or the so-called "Being of Light." When Elvis Presley died, it seemed like the whole world mourned. He was truly loved by many people the world over. Since then, many people have reported having Elvis sightings where the spirit of Elvis appears as an apparition to people much in the same way that Jesus appeared to people after his death. Not only that, many near-death experiencers find themselves greeted, not by a "Being of Light," but by Elvis Presley himself. According to Dr. Melvin Morse in his book on near-death experiences entitled Transformed by the Light, a 45-year old Mid-western teacher saw Elvis Presley in an intense light during her near-death experience. The woman had met Elvis when she was a child. The following is her near-death account:

"I entered into a dark tunnel and suddenly I was in a place filled up with love and a beautiful, bright light. The place seemed holy. My father, who had died two years earlier, was there, as were my grandparents. Everyone was happy to see me, but my father told me it was not my time and I would be going back. Just as I turned to go, I caught sight of Elvis! He was standing in this place of intense bright light. He just came over to me, took my hand and said, "Hi, Bev, do you remember me?" (Mauro,1992)

Dr. Raymond Moody wrote an entire book on Elvis sightings, including near-death experiences, entitled Elvis After Life. Because of the large number of devoted Elvis fans, it should not be a surprise that people having NDEs should be greeted by the King of Rock and Roll.


Taken from: http://www.near-death.com/famous.html

So what to add. Nothing really. The discussion was interesting and mostly fair. No bashing and so on.  I am waiting to see what AWARE will be about but so far nothing special is coming out of it. As for the open eyes during cardiac arrest I will try to find something because I heard something like that. So what to say in the end. Nothing special. Even when Sam Parnia claims we do not have to fear death I remain skeptical of his claims and I hope that he has more then just stories because so far claiming stuff like 20 people besides him looked at it sounds like pseudoscience because he is already making claims and appeals to numbers and authority that resuscitation is his butter and bread etc.. So we will see. So far however I remain skeptical because he has not convinced me and Nelson was pretty good even when there were many people against him. Also Fenwick was very good even when he was not convinced but he looked like a true seeker of truth. I would say that the whole interview even with Mary Neal and Sam Parnia was very good. All had tried to be unbiased and in the end it showed that there is a lot of work to do because even if Parnia study will be out it can have flaws and there is more work to be done because no one saw the pictures. No one scanned the brains of the dying and there are many questions which need to be answered if dualism should be the new model of consciousness and if consciousness can survive.

Note: (3:21) these are the times where the person was speaking it is written close to the actual time. Also some lines are not complete reproductions because it would take forever to write down everything and make a complete transcript. I just pointed out the main ideas mostly or the text which is important and provides also something for a skeptical analysis. Who does not believe me he can see for himself.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #78  Postby Shen1986 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:22 pm

Two things I wanted to add:

First that there is another problem with the NDE which she told the story after many years according to the interview even when she claims she can remember it completely well but I doubt that:

- Mary Neal - She is talking about the story of her NDE. It was in Chile and went Kayaking and she was a avid Kayaker. When she came to the first drop and started to drop and when she saw the bottom. (21:04)She was going into Sunday school as a child (child of the 1950s). She would respond yes if someone would ask her if she believes in god but before this experience she would not be a believer but would have the religion of the intellect. She would not be called a religious person. She was  drowning. The she had a normal NDE that everything would be fine. She was under water 40 minutes according to her friends. Love in NDE and was in heaven. She did not tell her story for many years. (27:12)

Taken from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

Second thing it was nice why there is such a battle about NDEs. The battle is that NDEs would be the only evidence which even brings out a model a model of dualism to play like Fenwick was talking about. It was maybe here in this part but as I recall Fenwick admitted that NDEs could bring the best evidence for a dualism model to play:

- Peter Fenwick - 1:11:48 - NDEs bring a model but again this will not bring funding. He has done a lot of work on lucid dreaming. The first papers were on lucid dreamers. He says that lucid dreamers do not produce what Kevin has said.

Taken from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #79  Postby Shen1986 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:45 pm

Finally found it. Nelson was right however I just found it for ketamine anesthesia. Nelson claims this:

- Kevin Nelson - (46:20) That people who have a cardiac arrest their eyes open up to which Sam Parnia protests and says I deal with them every week and they are always closed it is one thing I can assure you. He replies that why are you not looking at the right face. However Nelson claims that anesthesiologists claim that the eyes open half up and then down. People are taking in more visually informations and even thanks to the sound that you may think.(Sam Parnia does not agree) Second  he claims that during neurological damage the first thing is damaged are memories and that are the last thing to recover as well. He then goes to say about brain memory and is talking that our memory is very faulty and very suggestible and weak. In short that our memories are not so strong. He even says that a lot of evidence is for this mountains of evidence.

Taken from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

Hypnotic agents:  Propofol is the most common hypnotic agent used in veterinary medicine.  It has a very short duration of action and is frequently administered at anesthetic induction to facilitate passage of an endotracheal tube or as a continuous rate infusion during a surgical procedure.  It is very similar in duration of action and safety as thiopental but may be advantageous in some individuals or research protocols due to its mostly extra-hepatic metabolism.  It is important to note that propofol has no analgesic properties by itself and should be combined with an analgesic during general anesthesia.  The main physiological side effects of propofol include severe respiratory depression and hypotension.
Dissociative agents:  Ketamine and tiletamine are two commonly used dissociative agents which work as anesthetics by interrupting ascending transmission from the unconscious to conscious portions of the brain by inhibiting the NMDA receptor.  They are relatively short acting and produces variable analgesia and poor muscle relaxation.  When used as single agents, it is usually only for chemical restraint for minor procedures.  Combinations of dissociative agents with opioid, alpha adrenergic, or inhalant agents produces a deeper anesthesia that includes muscle relaxation. Major surgery requires visceral anesthesia; therefore, anesthetic protocols utilizing ketamine/tiletamine should also include an agent with good analgesic properties such as an opioid or alpha adrenergic agonist (xylazine, dexmedetomidine).  Neither of these agents cause cardiac depression but slight respiratory depression may be seen. When ketamine is used alone, the swallowing reflex is maintained making intubation difficult. The palpebral reflex is lost under ketamine anesthesia, but the eyes may remain open or spontaneously blink and ophthalmic ointment should be instilled to prevent corneal drying.  These agents are classified as schedule III controlled drugs by the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) and require users to obtain a DEA license.


Taken from: http://www.brl.uic.edu/?q=node/29

Or here. This is even during cardiac arrest:

Bill Bondar

Save Date: May 23, 2007
Age at SCA: 61

Bill Bondar knows exactly where he died: on the sidewalk outside his house in a retirement community in southern New Jersey. It was 10:30 on the night of May 23, a Wednesday, and Bondar was 61a retired computer programmer with a cherry red Gibson bass guitar, an instrument he had first picked up around the same time as Chuck Berry. He was 6 feet 1 and 208 pounds, down about 50 pounds over the last several years. On that night he had driven home from a jam session with two friends and, as he was unloading his car, his heart stopped. That is the definition of "clinical death," one of several definitions doctors use, not always with precision. He wasn't yet "brain dead," implying a permanent cessation of cerebral function, or "legally dead," i.e., fit to be buried. But he was dead enough to terrify his wife, Monica, who found him moments later, unconscious, not breathing, with no pulse. His eyes were open, but glassy"like marbles," Monica says, "with no life in them. They were the eyes of a dead man."

In a general sense, we know what happened to Bondar. His doctor at the University of Pennsylvania Hospital, Dr. Edward Gerstenfeld, later determined that Bondar's left anterior descending artery was 99 percent blocked by a coating of plaque, leaving a passage "the width of a hair." A blockage in that vessel, the largest artery feeding the heart, is known to cardiologists as the widowmaker. A tiny clot lodging there would have sent his heart into a brief burst of the ineffectual rhythm known as fibrillation, before it stopped altogether. Within 20 seconds the hundred billion neurons in Bondar's brain would have used up their residual oxygen, shutting down the ceaseless exchange of electrical charges that we experience as consciousness. His breathing stopped as he entered a quiescence beyond sleep.


Taken from: http://www.suddencardiacarrest.org/aws/ ... ails/false

So Nelson was right. During cardiac arrest people can have opened eyes according to what I found.
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Re: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study

Post #80  Postby Shen1986 » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:41 pm

This is what Sam Parnia claims in the interview:

- Sam Parnia - (49:02) - Not right now. I deal with cardiac arrest every week and have resuscitated hundred patients and its my bread and butter. He is claiming we are not using the same terms and things. Cardiac arrest is understood very well. He then goes on to explain cardiac arrest. He then claims that when there is no blood in the brain then the brain stops functioning. When we do resuscitation we can get only 5 percent of blood into the brain. The brain thanks to this the brain remains flat lined and the brain does not function. He is the talking about transit. He claims that we have thousands or even millions of people who had these experiences in the world from doctors to all kind of people. He is claiming that no cortex is working and we have a paradox because during NDEs people describe their environment. There is the AWARE where they study the recollections of these people .(51:36) The results will be soon. They have found thanks to 20 experts and not only Sam Parnia. The data suggest in cardiac arrest that the OBEs are not hallucinations and they are not consistent what we call a hallucination. Furthermore they managed to demonstrate that our consciousness disappears from the external view and the final thing is that when you talk to people after NDE they are expressing different memories. They are telling about memories who had NDEs which take part week or two later in the intensive care unit. We take these people.

Taken from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PCvuva2deU

He claims that NDEs or OBEs are not hallucinations and that consciousness lives after death. This is the same he claimed already in March 2013:

KeithA wrote:Tim, you may know of this from New Scientist, 9 March 2013 - Sam Parnia interview. I have the hard copy.

Dick Teresi Aren't NDEs just hallucinations?

Sam Parnia We know from clinical tests that the brain doesn't function after death, therefore you can't even hallucinate. It's ridiculous to say that NDE people are hallucinating because you have to have a functioning brain. If I take a person in cardiac arrest and inject them with LSD, I guarantee you they will not hallucinate.


Taken from: http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threads/w ... 32/page-14

The problem what is Parnia saying is that during NDE the brain is not dead. It never was dead to begin with when the person can remember something the brain could not be dead. Second problem is that we already knew that it takes time for the brain to die and that NDEs can take place after some time or when the person returns to consciousness. So what Parnia is saying has no sense and is illogical because the brain needs time to die and to rot. So when the brain is rotten it is dead. Another problem is that Parnia should have know that it takes time for the brain to die and that the whole process of resuscitation is to save the person from brain damage therefore the brain is still active. Oh boy this is just foolish. So no wonder that it is again nothing to bring. If Sam Parnia has something to bring he would already release the results in March when he was claiming this but so far again nothing just big claims with no evidence to back this up.
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