Helthcare a Privelij

A skeptical look at medical practices
User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12223
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Helthcare a Privelij

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 15, 2017 2:08 am

Happened to catch Miss Washington DC giv her ansr to a Q in the Miss America contest.

She sed healthcare iz a privelij that shoud be rezerved for employed peeple. And, az a goverment worker, she shoud know.

We will sertainly be getting beat over the hed with this by Huffpost, AOL and the selebrity blather showz for a week. (or until the next Trump outraje, so figure about 2pm Monday)

I started riting the helthcare paje on my website yesterday. Seem to be bogged kuz I'm doing other projects to avoid working on it. (got a rescued comp working, did a superflush to solve my kronikly slow toilet. Both seksesful!)
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19641
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon May 15, 2017 2:25 am

12 secs now, eh? :-P
Hi, Io the lurker.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12223
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 15, 2017 4:48 am

HA! Maybe! I'll hav to time it.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10236
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 15, 2017 7:24 pm

Gee.... a privilege huh? Well....only when every citizen is in a position to freely choose it or not. Let her work on THAT follow up question. Beauty always has been a free card to privilege. Not brains.... but privilege.

But seriously....what is a powerflush? Please answer if anything except a large amount of water? I remember as a kiddie we had willow tree roots that were constantly filling in our drain pipe. No power flush or rooter would work on them. About every 2-3 years had to get a special rooter with side cutting blades to get the flow.

Today in my hovel I have "slow" pipes that clog once a month. Thankfully a good plunger pops the block....whatever it is. What is the "root" cause here? Pipes too narrow? Not enough slope? Something is going on that is not tree roots.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19641
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon May 15, 2017 8:42 pm

Built-in plumber's job security?


Why don't you try snaking 'em to remove a possible buildup that might yearn for company and keeps grabbing segments of traffic.
Hi, Io the lurker.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10236
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 15, 2017 10:51 pm

The snake will be used when the plunger fails.....Pain in the butt, but 90% of failures are right in the U-Trap. I cleaned it out 10 years ago. I mean..... that should be a once in a lifetime deal.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19641
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon May 15, 2017 10:56 pm

:|

Spoiler:
ImageImage
Hi, Io the lurker.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9889
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon May 15, 2017 11:21 pm

Healthcare has always beeen a privilege. I am privileged to live in the 21st century when there is good medicine and good dentistry. However, I am disadvantaged by the fact that I cannot get access to 22nd century medicine that could probably cure damn near anything.

No one but the very rich can gain access to the most expensive healthcare. Just love those Big Pharma types that set their prices so that life saving anti-cancer drugs cost hundreds of thousands of dollars! However, basic health care is possible for everyone in any western nation, supported by the taxpayer. Allowing someone to die because he or she has too little money to pay for something quite readily available, is just wrong!

So my view is that basic health care should be a right, not a privilege.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19641
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon May 15, 2017 11:31 pm

Yeah, but, sadly, that doesn't work with the GOP's agenda...
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Mon May 15, 2017 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hi, Io the lurker.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10236
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 15, 2017 11:36 pm

Lance: I agree. Is it too much a quibble to demark "Healthcare is a Privilege" standing alone to the same statement with what you said? "Healthcare sadly is a privilege, but we should work to make it a (statutory) right."

Too wordy?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9889
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon May 15, 2017 11:51 pm

Of course, Bobbo.

Sadly, we also have to be practical, and any healthcare will be limited by practical and financial reasons. The more money a state has, the better the healthcare it can give*.

Should a peasant subsistence farmer in Zambia get basic healthcare? Yes, but it will be a lot more basic than what a citizen of a wealthy westertn country gets.

*Which is a bloody good reason to get tough on taxing the very rich.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12223
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 16, 2017 12:01 am

JO 753 wrote:(or until the next Trump outraje, so figure about 2pm Monday)


Washington Post: Trump revealz TOP SECRET info to Russian ambassador

I will take my Randi Challenge prize money in cash, pleez.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12223
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 16, 2017 12:02 am

scrmbldggs wrote:12 secs now, eh? :-P


14! Timed frum hitting the lever to the final glug.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19641
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue May 16, 2017 12:04 am

:lol:



That should give Pyrrho a little more time. Cos one should always make sure there is a final glug... :-P
Hi, Io the lurker.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12223
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 16, 2017 12:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:But seriously....what is a powerflush? Please answer if anything except a large amount of water?


It iz, but I need to elaborate anyway.

I flushed the toilet and wen it starting to drain blasted rite into the hole at the bottom with the garden hoze and kept it up for around 3 minits.

For this to work, the toilet cant be blocked completely.

The problem iz cauzed by a 90o bend not far below the toilet where solidz can get stuk and accumulate.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12223
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 16, 2017 12:18 am

scrmbldggs wrote::|

Spoiler:
ImageImage


Tried it. 18 buks literaly down the crapper!
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19641
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue May 16, 2017 12:23 am

Ouch. :(
Hi, Io the lurker.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12223
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 16, 2017 12:28 am

Had a conversation with wun uv my GoP frendz today. The subject uv helthcare came up and he also spoke uv 'privelij'.

She wun, in spite uv favoring poor peepl dying in the gutter.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10236
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 16, 2017 12:36 am

JO 753 wrote: I flushed the toilet and wen it starting to drain blasted rite into the hole at the bottom with the garden hoze and kept it up for around 3 minits.

For this to work, the toilet cant be blocked completely.

While back I had a complete blockage the plunger didn't clear. I used the hose with a power nozzle on it and shoved it down as far as it would go. Turned it on: No Joy. So....I suffed my sink drain with dish rags to get a seal there and Violet: got a pressure break thru. Let the hose run for a few minutes more. I'm thinking a nice "tool" might be a smaller diameter nose so it could be shoved farther down pipe, then stuff it as far as you can .... and just like that train conductor: pull it out slowly.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10236
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 16, 2017 12:42 am

Thanks for the link. She "almost" said healthcare is a privilege..... tied to a job ..... and you have a right to a job.

I know.... I'm pushing it.

Another truth that we ought to accept: two tiers of healthcare. If you are getting it for free.... don't expect the same level of service of those who pay for it. That DOES NOT mean negligent or shabby healthcare...but it does mean a different level of service. A bed in a ward, rather than a private room sort of division. I prefer a ward setting anyway.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10236
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 16, 2017 12:42 am

.....................and actual death panels.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Flash
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6001
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:09 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Flash » Tue May 16, 2017 5:53 am

America is the only developed country without so called single payer health care. The richest country in the developed world with the worst healthcare.

There is only one way to have a good healthcare available to everybody. Get rid of your so called health care industry; the health insurance and the hospital (for profit) companies. They are the parasites and blood suckers that don't contribute to the well being of Americans. They inserted themselves in a financial space between the patients and the medical professionals skimming the profits,introducing delays, gigantic bureaucracy, rejections and sowing nothing but pain and death. They are the real death panels of the American healthcare.

You can't make these companies compete and thus lower the price of healthcare while increasing quality. That has never happened and it will not happen because the healthcare for profit is fundamentally incompatible with good, solid and universal healthcare.

In order to maximize the profits these companies have to lower the quality and deny the access to a good healthcare. It's just good business and that's why this model can't be used to deliver a good quality and universal healthcare to the nation.

All the advanced countries in the world understand this except Americans who let themselves be hoodwinked by the {!#%@} corporate propaganda.

And while you at it, that is arresting the health insurance companies CEOs and sending them to the reeducation camps in the Arctic you could at the same time make sure that these people spend some quality time up there in Alaska with the CEOs of the drug companies. That would miraculously lower the price of drugs to some reasonable level as well.

Fellow Americans...good luck in your noble endevours. :mrgreen:
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

Tom Palven
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4735
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:52 pm

There is little competition in health care because all medical practices and hospitals are subject to government and AMA rules.

If medical care becomes completely controlled by the federales why shouldn't we expect the kind of care given at VA hospitals?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3077
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:18 pm

Competition would have to be between the healthcare providers and customers, i.e insurance companies, since they are the ones paying the bills. For the consumers, i.e. us, the bigger our insurer, the better deal (in theory) they can make with healthcare providers.
So we want lots of providers and very few insurers.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

Tom Palven
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4735
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:37 pm

Totally deregulating all medical practices and procedures and all pharmaceuticals would open the door to all kinds of competition, good and bad, and free people would have additional choices, unfettered by a nanny state and relieved of, as Frederic Bastiat said, "the great fiction that everyone lives at the expense of someone else."
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7375
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:41 am

Tom Palven wrote:There is little competition in health care because all medical practices and hospitals are subject to government and AMA rules.

If medical care becomes completely controlled by the federales why shouldn't we expect the kind of care given at VA hospitals?


The reasons the VA is so bad are… A) The VA treats many very bad illnesses, not generally encountered by the general public. B) The VA is limited in `customers` to a small slice of the population and hence doesn`t draw the best professionals. C) The VA is funded thru general tax revenue allocations instead of thru a dedicated tax, such as funds SS. D) The VA isn`t a part of the commercial medicine industry in the US, and thus doesn`t benefit from complaints/reviews/corrective actions that benefit the others.

There is no reason to assume that single payer is the issue with the VA system, or that the issues the VA faces would be projected upon the entire medical industry if a truly national healthcare insurance system were implemented.

Tom Palven
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4735
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 am

TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:There is little competition in health care because all medical practices and hospitals are subject to government and AMA rules.

If medical care becomes completely controlled by the federales why shouldn't we expect the kind of care given at VA hospitals?


The reasons the VA is so bad are… A) The VA treats many very bad illnesses, not generally encountered by the general public. B) The VA is limited in `customers` to a small slice of the population and hence doesn`t draw the best professionals. C) The VA is funded thru general tax revenue allocations instead of thru a dedicated tax, such as funds SS. D) The VA isn`t a part of the commercial medicine industry in the US, and thus doesn`t benefit from complaints/reviews/corrective actions that benefit the others.

There is no reason to assume that single payer is the issue with the VA system, or that the issues the VA faces would be projected upon the entire medical industry if a truly national healthcare insurance system were implemented.


I don't find any of your logic convincing.

For example, C.

U.S.roads and bridges are allegedly funded through dedicated taxes, but every election year we are told that most of our roads are in disrepair and that many bridges are in imminent danger of collapse, (and that VA hospitals are on the top of the to do list for improvement.

And as far as SS goes it is actuarially on the road to bankruptcy unless Congress keeps raising the age requirement until it's around 115 years!
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7375
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:41 am

Tom Palven wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:There is little competition in health care because all medical practices and hospitals are subject to government and AMA rules.

If medical care becomes completely controlled by the federales why shouldn't we expect the kind of care given at VA hospitals?


The reasons the VA is so bad are… A) The VA treats many very bad illnesses, not generally encountered by the general public. B) The VA is limited in `customers` to a small slice of the population and hence doesn`t draw the best professionals. C) The VA is funded thru general tax revenue allocations instead of thru a dedicated tax, such as funds SS. D) The VA isn`t a part of the commercial medicine industry in the US, and thus doesn`t benefit from complaints/reviews/corrective actions that benefit the others.

There is no reason to assume that single payer is the issue with the VA system, or that the issues the VA faces would be projected upon the entire medical industry if a truly national healthcare insurance system were implemented.


I don't find any of your logic convincing.

For example, C.

U.S.roads and bridges are allegedly funded through dedicated taxes, but every election year we are told that most of our roads are in disrepair and that many bridges are in imminent danger of collapse, (and that VA hospitals are on the top of the to do list for improvement.

And as far as SS goes it is actuarially on the road to bankruptcy unless Congress keeps raising the age requirement until it's around 115 years!


Oink oink... (translation - hogwash!)

With taxes forever being cut, there will never be enough to fund the various programs. There are easy solutions to the eventual SS shortfall which do not involve people working until 115.

You are inconvincible because you do not believe in democratic government solutions.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10236
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:48 am

Only one of the major foibles in the Healthcare for All is a Communist Plot is the assumption that healthcare is subject to free market principles......whereas by any definition you can find........its not. The Loons are constantly trying to force square pegs though round holes..........or more closely craming up the round hole with one of their square pegs so the round pegs can't be used.

Ass holes all of them..................what is done in 1-2-3rd world countries around the world considered to be "un doable" in the GOUSA! Too many===>even "believe" it.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4735
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:10 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Only one of the major foibles in the Healthcare for All is a Communist Plot is the assumption that healthcare is subject to free market principles......whereas by any definition you can find........its not. The Loons are constantly trying to force square pegs though round holes..........or more closely craming up the round hole with one of their square pegs so the round pegs can't be used.

Ass holes all of them..................what is done in 1-2-3rd world countries around the world considered to be "un doable" in the GOUSA! Too many===>even "believe" it.


Do you think that your explanation of health care economics, Bobbo, might have a little bit in common with the types of explanations provided by Durwood Fincher?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0va4piKl4Lg
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10236
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:21 pm

Double Speak?---why no. You might disagree with what I posted, but its quite direct. A dither on pegs and holes for those who enjoy metaphors and word play??? Shirley not beyond your comprehension.

Healthcare is NOT an activity subject to the invisible hand.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9889
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:14 pm

There was an editorial article in New Scientist a couple years aback, about the American health system. I think it preceded Obama care. Anyway, the point taken from that is that the American system cost twice as much per procedure as the British system, which was socialist. So there was an example of socialist health care being superior. Nor was American health care better in terms of outcomes. It was very variable. Some hospitals very good and some very bad.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10236
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:19 pm

Just because its correct: hospitals and procedures are about "sick care." Primary care is about healthcare of which USA has precious little. Its getting worse and may go retro: USA medical/pharma complex is about skimming dollars to For Profit Mega Corporations having ZERO application to healthcare.

A morally corrupt system showing the stupidity of the American voter. Its been on the list for a long time.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4735
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:08 pm

JO 753 wrote:Had a conversation with wun uv my GoP frendz today. The subject uv helthcare came up and he also spoke uv 'privelij'.

She wun, in spite uv favoring poor peepl dying in the gutter.


Despite my belief that individualist anarchism is most ethical and efficacious I really like The Sane Progressive, Debbie Lusignan, who calls for universal health care.

She is diligent and honest, and you might like seeing her perspective:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJA7urXYocA
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2042
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:01 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Despite my belief that individualist anarchism is most ethical and efficacious

Are you referring to Stirner's concept of egoism? If so, how do you reconcile its ideology with the self-centrism inherent in human nature, as evidenced by the current US political climate, economic disparity, criminal justice for profit system, rampant bigotry, pollution, consumer fraud, and other proof that most individuals without regulatory guidance will violate the rights of their fellow citizens?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

Tom Palven
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4735
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:58 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Despite my belief that individualist anarchism is most ethical and efficacious

Are you referring to Stirner's concept of egoism? If so, how do you reconcile its ideology with the self-centrism inherent in human nature, as evidenced by the current US political climate, economic disparity, criminal justice for profit system, rampant bigotry, pollution, consumer fraud, and other proof that most individuals without regulatory guidance will violate the rights of their fellow citizens?


No, I read a little of Stirner and wasn't impressed, and much prefer the views of Scots philosopher Adam Smith who wrote that most people are basically wired to be benevolent in his book The Theory of Moral Sentiments, 1759.

He felt that this was his best work, better than the more famous An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, written 18 years later.

Smith was by no means an anarchist, and my anarchism probably derives most from the works of Murray Rothbard, including For a New Liberty
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Tom Palven
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4735
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:58 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Despite my belief that individualist anarchism is most ethical and efficacious

Are you referring to Stirner's concept of egoism? If so, how do you reconcile its ideology with the self-centrism inherent in human nature, as evidenced by the current US political climate, economic disparity, criminal justice for profit system, rampant bigotry, pollution, consumer fraud, and other proof that most individuals without regulatory guidance will violate the rights of their fellow citizens?


No, I read a little of Stirner and wasn't impressed, and much prefer the views of Scots philosopher Adam Smith who wrote that most people are basically wired to be benevolent in his book The Theory of Moral Sentiments, 1759.

He felt that this was his best work, more important in his view than his most famous work, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, written 18 years later.

Smith, however, was by no means an anarchist, and my anarchism probably derives most from the works of Murray Rothbard, including For a New Liberty
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2042
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:40 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Despite my belief that individualist anarchism is most ethical and efficacious

Are you referring to Stirner's concept of egoism? If so, how do you reconcile its ideology with the self-centrism inherent in human nature, as evidenced by the current US political climate, economic disparity, criminal justice for profit system, rampant bigotry, pollution, consumer fraud, and other proof that most individuals without regulatory guidance will violate the rights of their fellow citizens?


No, I read a little of Stirner and wasn't impressed, and much prefer the views of Scots philosopher Adam Smith who wrote that most people are basically wired to be benevolent in his book The Theory of Moral Sentiments, 1759.

He felt that this was his best work, more important in his view than his most famous work, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, written 18 years later.

Smith, however, was by no means an anarchist, and my anarchism probably derives most from the works of Murray Rothbard, including For a New Liberty

You are aware that Rothbard excoriated Smith's ideas, claiming they would lead to Marxism? And that he opposed evidence-based economics in favor of his own baseless beliefs? Since you admit to admiring Rothbard, is it fair to say you're actually an anarcho-capitalist?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

Tom Palven
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4735
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:02 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
LunaNik wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Despite my belief that individualist anarchism is most ethical and efficacious

Are you referring to Stirner's concept of egoism? If so, how do you reconcile its ideology with the self-centrism inherent in human nature, as evidenced by the current US political climate, economic disparity, criminal justice for profit system, rampant bigotry, pollution, consumer fraud, and other proof that most individuals without regulatory guidance will violate the rights of their fellow citizens?


No, I read a little of Stirner and wasn't impressed, and much prefer the views of Scots philosopher Adam Smith who wrote that most people are basically wired to be benevolent in his book The Theory of Moral Sentiments, 1759.

He felt that this was his best work, more important in his view than his most famous work, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, written 18 years later.

Smith, however, was by no means an anarchist, and my anarchism probably derives most from the works of Murray Rothbard, including For a New Liberty

You are aware that Rothbard excoriated Smith's ideas, claiming they would lead to Marxism? And that he opposed evidence-based economics in favor of his own baseless beliefs? Since you admit to admiring Rothbard, is it fair to say you're actually an anarcho-capitalist?


1. Which of Smith's ideas did Murray excoriate? Got any links?

2. I don't like the word capitalism and all that it has come to imply- the MIC, welfare for the rich, and so on.
Smith didn't use the word "capitalism." It wasn't invented by Marx until around 100 years later.

If I'm going to label myself, I'll call myself an individualist anarchist or simply an individualist, since collectivism is not compatible with individualism any more than absolute monarchy ( Saudi Arabia) is compatible with individual liberty.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2042
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: Helthcare a Privelij

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:07 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
LunaNik wrote:You are aware that Rothbard excoriated Smith's ideas, claiming they would lead to Marxism? And that he opposed evidence-based economics in favor of his own baseless beliefs? Since you admit to admiring Rothbard, is it fair to say you're actually an anarcho-capitalist?


1. Which of Smith's ideas did Murray excoriate? Got any links?

2. I don't like the word capitalism and all that it has come to imply- the MIC, welfare for the rich, and so on.
Smith didn't use the word "capitalism." It wasn't invented by Marx until around 100 years later.

If I'm going to label myself, I'll call myself an individualist anarchist or simply an individualist, since collectivism is not compatible with individualism any more than absolute monarchy ( Saudi Arabia) is compatible with individual liberty.

1. Seriously? All of them. It's only Rothbard's seminal two-volume work, An Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought.
For Smith not only contributed nothing of value to economic thought; his economics was a grave deterioration from his predecessors.

2. Actually, Marx did not invent the term as we now use it. French socialist Louis Blanc did, defining it as "the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others." Anarchist and founder of mutualism, Pierre-Joseph Proudhom, further defined it as an ideology: "Economic and social regime in which capital, the source of income, does not generally belong to those who make it work through their labour."

And whether you like the term or not, Rothbard was an enthusiastic proponent of unregulated free market capitalism across the board...and a staunch opponent of egalitarianism*. His described his model wherein "a system of protection agencies compete in a free market and are voluntarily supported by consumers who choose to use their protective and judicial services." You should be able to see an obvious number of problems with Rothbard's system. If you can't afford protection and justice, you're SOL.

*Perhaps you haven't read enough of and about Rothbard. He was actively and publicly hostile toward women's and civil rights. He proposed that the police be allowed not merely to arrest and detain, but to administer punishment, and to torture suspects. He embraced historical revisionism and was an unapologetic Holocaust denier. He believed that individual rights extended to parents' rights to sell their children into slavery in what he dubbed "a flourishing free market in children," and believed that parents had no legal obligation to care for their children, because that would infringe upon the rights of the parents. He supported "an eye for an eye" criminal punishment...actually more than that, since he spoke about forcing the criminal into a state of temporary enslavement to his victim. All in all, he was a disgusting person, and I'm quite thankful he's dead.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


Return to “Healthcare”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest