Opinions on Nooalf

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Major Malfunction
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Major Malfunction » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:05 am

JO 753 wrote:YKoNGRaTS oN LRNING XU SISTUM WeL INUF TQ SPeL IT. MOST oBJeKTORZ NeVR BoXR TQ. XE ONLE eRORZ i NOTIST WR "PaRK" & "KaR".

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:36 am

Wi DID YQ aD XaT 'Y'?
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:58 pm

JO 753 wrote:You are correct. All your consernz hav been adressed. But, insted uv having to plow thru all the repetition and churn, you can read Krazy JO'z Bad Lojik Skeet Shooting Klub on the site.

KoNGRaTS oN LRNING XU SISTUM WeL INUF TQ SPeL IT. MOST oBJeKTORZ NeVR BoXR TQ. XE ONLE eRORZ i NOTIST WR "PaRK" & "KaR".

Thanks, JO! I tried my best to spell correctly when providing my examples, and I appreciate the arguments you've provided. I realize the incredible amount of research and work you've done to create Nooalf, so I refuse to criticize without what I perceive to be a valid reason. Constructive criticism, if you will.

1. You capitalize the long A, E, and O (KAV and ONLE), but not the I and U (SISTUM). Inconsistent rules are what make English spelling difficult. If all the long vowels were capitalized, Nooalf would be much easier to learn.

2. I think you're underestimating how difficult capitalized text is for most people to read. Personally, I find it extremely hard on the eye when all the characters are the same size. This is the reason you rarely see ALL CAPS used in the body text of books, magazines, and advertisements. The sameness negatively affects legibility. Compare the same text in ALL CAPS, Nooalf, and standard capitalization:
WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES, IN ORDER TO FORM A MORE PERFECT UNION, ESTABLISH JUSTICE, INSURE DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY, PROVIDE FOR THE COMMON DEFENSE, PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE, AND SECURE THE BLESSINGS OF LIBERTY TO OURSELVES AND OUR POSTERITY, DO ORDAIN AND ESTABLISH THIS CONSTITUTION FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

(I've used "OeR" to spell the vowel sound "or," which elides from the "o" to the "r." Same thing with "AeR" for "are" and "OWR" for "our." I didn't know how else to render these vowel sounds as they're pronounced.)

WE XU PEPL UV XU YQNiTID STATS, IN OeRDR TQ FOeRM U MOeR PRFIKT YQNYUN, eSTaBLIs JUSTIS, INsQR DOMesTIK TRaNGKWILITE, PROViD FOeR XU COMUN DEFeNS, PROMOT, XU GeNRL WeLFAeR, aND SEKYQR XU BLeSINGZ UV LIBRTE TQ OWRSeLVZ aND OWR POSTAeRITE, DQ ORDAN aND eSTaBLIs xIS KONSTITQsUN FOeR XU YQNiTID STATS UV UMAeRIKU.

We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Standard capitalization is much easier to read. I wish you'd based your alphabet on lowercase letters instead of uppercase with the off characters being uppercase.

3. I believe your system lacks vowel sounds; while translating the Preamble, I came across several sounds I couldn't figure out how to render. For example, given your chart, I would have no idea how to spell the following words:
  • thought - I know you'll probably say XoT, but the "ough" is actually a different vowel sound from the "o" on your chart.
  • choice - I'm assuming some combination of O or o and Y, but in Nooalf, Y isn't a vowel.
  • mouth - Similar to the above: O or o and W, with the same issue...W isn't a vowel in Nooalf.
  • start - Based on pronunciation, it should be STORT, but it's not obvious.
  • north - The vowel sound here is like the vowel sound in thought, followed by a soft R.
  • square - Nooalf doesn't have a way to spell this vowel sound.
  • comma - Nooalf doesn't have a way to spell the vowel sound represented by the "a," which is different from the "U"
    on your chart.

4. The spelling in your Nooalf sentences (above) is confusing to me. We don't pronounce the first "o" in "congrats" like the "o" in "on," yet you've spelled them the same; I would spell it "KUNGRaTS, based on its pronunciation. Where there's an "er," you've omitted a vowel, yet you've put one in "oBJeKTORZ," even though we don't pronounce the word like that, but like "UBJeKTRZ." I would spell those sentences like this, making use of both W and Y as vowels as needed:
KUNGRaTS OWN LRNING XU SISTM WeL INUF TQ SPeL IT. MOST UBJeKTRS NeVR BoXR TQ. XU ONLE ARRZ i NOTIST WR "PORK" aND "KOR."

Based on my pronunciation; I hope you can read it! JO, i XiNK YQ suD BE KUMeNDID FOeR XU UMAZiNG UMoWNT UV WeRK YQV DUN. YQ MUST HaV SPeNT U TUN UV TiM oN LINGWISTIKS aND HISTRE RESURC, NOT TQ MeNsUN PRoGRaMING aND LURNING XU SISTM YQ KREATID. iM IMPReSD. (IT TuK ME aT LEST FiV MINITS TQ TiP xIS WUN PaRaGRaF! BUT ITS GeTING EZEeR.)
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:41 am

YR DOING VeRE WeL!

i KaN SE WeR YOR MISKUNSePsNZ oR, XO. MOSTLE ITS DQ TQ TRiING TQ UNDRSTaND IT WIx STaNDRD FONeTIK LoJIK, BUT oLSO NoT NOING SUM UV XU LeTR/SoWND RELAsNZ. XU LoJIK SeKsN WIL HeLP. IT eKSPLANZ XU KaP/LOWR KAS xING oLSO.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:05 am

iM STIL HaVING U DIFIKULT TiM Wix XU PLASIZ WAeR VoWLZ aR OMITID, LiK "aKYRITLE." eVRE TiM i GeT STUK oN U WRD(?), ITS oLWAZ WUN XaT, TQ ME, IZ MISING U VoWL. iD BE ABUL TQ RED IT MUC MOeR EZILE IF IT WR SPeLD "aKYURITLE." WeN i RELiZ U VoWL HaZ BIN OMITID, i HaV TQ PUZL oWT WAer IT GOZ.

STIL, i xINGK XIS IZ WIKID KQL! IT REMiNZ ME UV LURNING TQ RiT IN TOLKEIN RQNZ WeN i WUZ IN eLUMeNTRE SKQL. iM GOING TQ TRi TQ MAK oL Mi RESPoNSIZ TQ YQ IN NQaLF FRUM NoW oN.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:58 am

Image
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:49 pm

NoT BaD!

U BIG REVULAsUN FOR ME WUZ XaT R IZ U VoWL. IT HIT ME LiK 10 YIRZ aFTR i KREATID XU SISTUM. RED XU DeFINIsUN UV VoWL oN XU FRST LoJIK PAJ.

BUT MOR FUNDUMeNTL XaN XaT FOR UNDRSTaNDING NQaLF IZ TQ DUMP XE eNTiR VoWL/KoNSONaNT WA UV LuKING aT xINGZ. IT ONLE KREATS KUNFYQjUN.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Major Malfunction » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:01 pm

Have you ever tried writing it on paper?
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:24 pm

YeS. ITS XE ONLE SISTUM i YQZ.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Major Malfunction » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:46 pm

I don't think it would suit cursive.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:24 am

youre rite, kuz there iz no cursiv version.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:12 pm

It doesn't seem very efficient. The whole point of cursive is to make writing faster.

Your method seems to do the opposite.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:23 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:3. I believe your system lacks vowel sounds; while translating the Preamble, I came across several sounds I couldn't figure out how to render.


Vowel sounds are rendered according to the regional accent of the writer. A Cockney, A Canadian, a Bostonian, an Australian would all spell 'fair' differently. Not to mention a whole lot of other words. Some of your vowels sounds differ a bit from JO's, so you would spell the words differently.

Verbal vowel renderings (accents) drift over time, hence the regional differences, as the drift is at least somewhat random. In JO's system, spellings would drift over time, as well as from region to region.

Very soon, writing would be back like in the middle ages when writers basically winged it because there was no standard.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:04 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:writers basically winged it because there was no standard.

C'mon. This is NOALF we're talking about! Are you suggesting JO is just making it all up?
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:34 pm

Juː nəʊ, JO, ɪf juː ˈrɪəli wɒnt tʊ ɪmˈprɛs ˈpiːp(ə)l, juː'd ˈəʊnli rʌɪt ɪn ðəʊz wɪəd fəˈnɛtɪk prəˌnʌnsɪˈeɪʃ(ə)n ɡʌɪdz ɪn ˈdɪkʃ(ə)n(ə)riz.

:P
Spoiler:
You know, JO, if you really want to impress people you'd only write in those weird phonetic pronunciation guides in dictionaries.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:00 pm

IF LeKSIKoGRIFRZ RELE WoNTID TQ IMPReS ME, XAD UDoPT NQaLF INSTeD UV XeR HaF BAKT (OR OVRBAKT, IF YR ToKING UBoWT REFR) aS TaNGLR XA YQZ.

YQ MA HaV NOTIST XaT i HaV NO TRUBL REDING XU MIKST UP STUF PEPL xRO aT ME HER IN aN UTeMPT TQ MoK NQaLF, YeT EVIN i HaD TQ RED XaT IPa KRaP TWiS BEFOR i GoT eVRE WRD. aND iV SEN IT MeNE TiMZ BEFOR!
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:03 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:It doesn't seem very efficient. The whole point of cursive is to make writing faster.

Your method seems to do the opposite.


Its really just a matter uv making a font. But hoo rites by hand anymore? All I rite are short notes.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:12 pm

JO 753 wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:It doesn't seem very efficient. The whole point of cursive is to make writing faster.

Your method seems to do the opposite.


Its really just a matter uv making a font. But hoo rites by hand anymore? All I rite are short notes.

i RiT GRoSRE LISTS, NoTS FoR MiSeLF, & LeTRZ TQ PEPUL HQ DoNT HaV KUMPYQTRZ...& i WuDNT BOXR WIx RiTING XOZ IF i HaD U DESINT PRINTR! STQPID H.P. INGKJeT PES UV KRaP. :mrgreen:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:07 am

XU KaNUN PIKSMU MG6320 i HaV IZ FaNTaSTIK. BeST PRINTR eVR. ITS UBoWT 3 YIRZ OLD, SO i eKSPeKT XU NYQR MoDLZ TQ BE EVIN BeDR.

(YQ YQZD XU RoNG 'O' 4 TiMZ)
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:26 pm

sIT! i SE Mi MISTAKS.
• GROSRE
• NOTS
• FOR (i STIL WONT TQ RiT "FOeR.")
• DONT
IF EXR OL XU LoNG OeR OL XU sORT VoWLZ WR CaPITULiZD, IT WuD BE EZEUR. BUT XU LoNG "A" & "E" & "O" aR CaPITULiZD, WiL XU sORT "I" & "U" aR. XaT PaRT IZ HaRD TQ REMeMBR. iM STIL HaVING FUN LRNING NQaLF, XO!

i WIL CeK oWT XaT KaNUN...xaNKS!
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:10 pm

YR GITN XoR!

WeN YQ KaN SNaC XU PeBL FRUM Mi HaND, YQ WIL BE PRMITID TQ LEV.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:05 pm

DaMIT, i KaNT ReC IT! (STORE UV Mi LiF)
*GLaNSIZ URoWND, SRCING FOR XU SEKRIT MUsRQM BLOK*

XIS IZ U GRAT WA TQ PRaKTIS...JUST sQTING TU sIT. iM CeKING EC WRD aZ i TiP IT, SO HOPFULE iM CeCING OL Mi MISTAKZ XIS TiM. IT IZ GeTING EZEUR XU MOR i DQ IT, OLXO i STIL HaV TQ SoWND oWT SUM WRDZ BEFOR i KaN FIGYR oWT HoW XA sUD BE SPeLD. i HaV NOTISD XaT MOST WRDZ aR sORTND KWiT U BIT IN NQaLF KUMPAeRD TQ STaNDRD INGLIs. "OLXO"...SO MUC sORTR!
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Poodle » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:19 pm

JO 753 wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:It doesn't seem very efficient. The whole point of cursive is to make writing faster.

Your method seems to do the opposite.


Its really just a matter uv making a font. But hoo rites by hand anymore? All I rite are short notes.

Me! Not all the time, but most of my research stuff is handwritten. Pages of the stuff!

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:08 am

It woud be an interesting rase to see if sumwun adept at riting in nqalf can beat sumwun riting in cursiv with no abreveationz.

But I'm not stopping anybody from developing a cursiv version uv nqalf, so go for it dood!
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:19 am

i KaN GRAD YOR WRK, LiK U STRIKT GRaMR SKQL TECR!


Nikki Nyx wrote:DaMIT, i KaNT ReC IT! (STORE UV Mi LiF)
*GLaNSIZ URoWND, SRCING FOR XU SEKRIT MUsRQM BLOK*

XIS IZ U GRAT WA TQ PRaKTIS...JUST sQTING TU sIT. iM CeKING EC WRD aZ i TiP IT, SO HOPFULE iM CeCING OL Mi MISTAKZ XIS TiM. IT IZ GeTING EZEUR XU MOR i DQ IT, OLXO i STIL HaV TQ SoWND oWT SUM WRDZ BEFOR i KaN FIGYR oWT HoW XA sUD BE SPeLD. i HaV NOTISD XaT MOST WRDZ aR sORTND KWiT U BIT IN NQaLF KUMPAeRD TQ STaNDRD INGLIs. "OLXO"...SO MUC sORTR!


NoT sR UBoWT 'oLXO'. MABE ITS U DiULeKT xING i NeVR NOTIST BEFOR?
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:13 am

JO 753 wrote:i KaN GRAD YOR WRK, LiK U STRIKT GRaMR SKQL TECR!


Nikki Nyx wrote:DaMIT, i KaNT ReC IT! (STORE UV Mi LiF)
*GLaNSIZ URoWND, SRCING FOR XU SEKRIT MUsRQM BLOK*

XIS IZ U GRAT WA TQ PRaKTIS...JUST sQTING TU sIT. iM CeKING EC WRD aZ i TiP IT, SO HOPFULE iM CeCING OL Mi MISTAKZ XIS TiM. IT IZ GeTING EZEUR XU MOR i DQ IT, OLXO i STIL HaV TQ SoWND oWT SUM WRDZ BEFOR i KaN FIGYR oWT HoW XA sUD BE SPeLD. i HaV NOTISD XaT MOST WRDZ aR sORTND KWiT U BIT IN NQaLF KUMPAeRD TQ STaNDRD INGLIs. "OLXO"...SO MUC sORTR!


NoT sR UBoWT 'oLXO'. MABE ITS U DiULeKT xING i NeVR NOTIST BEFOR?
OKA, i MiT HaV TQ RiT IN STaNDRD INGLIs TQ eKSPLAN Mi PRONUNSEAsUN UV SUM UV XEZ.

• "CeCING" IZ RoNG, i KeN SE. BUT i WuD PRONoWNS IT "ketching," SO FOR ME, XU "e" IZ RiT...KeCING. (SAM WIx "KeN.")
• i USQM YQ WuD RiT "EZER," BEKUZ i REMeMBR YQ SeD XU "R" WUZ U VoWL? XaT STIL MeSIZ ME UP WeN XeRZ UNUXR SILUBL IN XAeR. (& i NO YQ WONT LiK "USQM," "UNUXR," & "SILUBL" EXR, BUT XaTS HoW i PRONoWNS XeM...SAM aZ XU "U" IN "UGLE.")
• YOR RiT UBoWT "OLXO." XaT WUZ Mi MISTAK.
• i STIL HER BOx "A" & "e" IN XU StaNDRD INGLIs SoWND "ai," DIFRINT FRUM XU "e" IN "eG," WIC IZ Wi i ROT "KUMPAeRD." i MiT BE KUNVINSD ITS "KUMPARD," IF "R" IZ U VoWL, BUT "KUMPeRD" IZ MISING SUMxING.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:03 pm

oR YQ FRUM U SUXRN STAT IN UMeRIKU?

DQ YOU PRUNoWNS "they're' & 'their' XU SAM?

iM FRUM sIKoGO (NORx SiD), SO Mi DiULeKT IZ PRITE MUC WUT YQ HIR ON TV.

Nikki Nyx wrote:• i USQM YQ WuD RiT "EZER," BEKUZ i REMeMBR YQ SeD XU "R" WUZ U VoWL?


KOReKT.

i NO YQ WONT LiK "USQM," "UNUXR," & "SILUBL" EXR, BUT XaTS HoW i PRONoWNS XeM...SAM aZ XU "U" IN "UGLE."


INKOReKT. XaTS HoW i SA XeM oLSO.

i STIL HER BOx "A" & "e" IN XU StaNDRD INGLIs SoWND "ai," DIFRINT FRUM XU "e" IN "eG," WIC IZ Wi i ROT "KUMPAeRD." i MiT BE KUNVINSD ITS "KUMPARD," IF "R" IZ U VoWL, BUT "KUMPeRD" IZ MISING SUMxING.


XE R SoWND KaN BE MAD KUNTINYQUSLE WIxoWT VeREAsN, SO IT IZ U VoWL.

aN INTUReSTING xING - U GRL i NYQ BEFOR i KREATID NQaLF WUZ NAMD EVo MRGoN ("Eva Mrgan") and LiK YQ, i DIDNT UNDRSTaND IT. i WUZ sR XeR WUZ U MISING LeTR, BUT KuDNT FIGYR eNE UXR WA TQ PRONoWNS IT. i xINK ITS SWEDIs, SO XA GeT XaT ITS U VoWL.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:14 pm

JO 753 wrote:oR YQ FRUM U SUXRN STAT IN UMeRIKU?
i WUZ BORN IN WosINGTUN D.C. BUT ONLE LIVD XeR UNTIL i WUZ 2, SO i NeVR PIKD UP XU SUXRN aKSeNT. XA SA WORsINGTUN WIx U LoNG "O" LiK IN OLD, PLUS aN "R."
JO 753 wrote:DQ YOU PRUNoWNS "they're' & 'their' XU SAM?
:mrgreen: YeS. oLSO "there." oL xRE oR XU SAM FOR ME.
JO 753 wrote:iM FRUM sIKoGO (NORx SiD), SO Mi DiULeKT IZ PRITE MUC WUT YQ HIR ON TV.
MiN IZ PRITE KLOS TQ XaT "UNaKSeNTID" SPEC. i KaNT xINGK UV eNE DIFReNSIZ oFHaND.
JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:• i USQM YQ WuD RiT "EZER," BEKUZ i REMeMBR YQ SeD XU "R" WUZ U VoWL?
KOReKT.
TQ ME, XaT MENZ XU "R" HaZ TQ PRONUNSEAsUNZ:
1. aZ U KoNSUNINT (JUST aN "R" SoWND), aZ IN RaT, FRUM, OR, aND KURER
2. aZ U DIPxoNG (aN "UR" SoWND WIx U VOKULiZD NQaLF "U" PRESEDING XU "R"), aZ IN EZER, SUXRN, NeVR, aND STaNDRD.
XaTS Wi i WuD RiT XeM aZ EZEUR, SUXURN, NEVUR, aND STaNDURD. i FEL ITS XU SAM LoJIK XaT UPLiZ TQ XE "oW" DIPxONG aZ RITIN IN NQaLF, aZ IN SoWND. IF IT WR (WUR) RITIN aZ SWND, IT WuD BE KUNFYQZING.
JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:i NO YQ WONT LiK "USQM," "UNUXR," & "SILUBL" EXR, BUT XaTS HoW i PRONoWNS XeM...SAM aZ XU "U" IN "UGLE."
INKOReKT. XaTS HoW i SA XeM oLSO.
YA!
JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:i STIL HER BOx "A" & "e" IN XU StaNDRD INGLIs SoWND "ai," DIFRINT FRUM XU "e" IN "eG," WIC IZ Wi i ROT "KUMPAeRD." i MiT BE KUNVINSD ITS "KUMPARD," IF "R" IZ U VoWL, BUT "KUMPeRD" IZ MISING SUMxING.
XE R SoWND KaN BE MAD KUNTINYQUSLE WIxoWT VeREAsN, SO IT IZ U VoWL.
i GeT XE "R aZ U VoWL" KoNSePT...EVIN STaNDRD INGLIs ReKUGNiZIZ IT aZ SUC. Mi IsYQ IZ WIx XU NQaLF "e" IN KUMPeRD, BEKUZ ITS NoT XU SAM SoWND aZ XU "e" IN eG. i MUST BREFLE REGReS INTQ STaNDRD INGLIs TQ eKSPLAN.
—————
The vowel in bomb, designated in Nooalf as "o," is the same as the vowel in start, except that in start, it's followed by an "r." So, BoMB and SToRT make sense to me in Nooalf.

The vowel in egg, designated in Nooalf as "e," is NOT the same as the vowel in chair, even taking into account the "r." The vowel in egg is phonetically written "e," but the vowel in chair is written "eǝr." So, while eG is perfectly fine, CeR is not. CeR is missing a crucial vowel. I think Nooalf needs dipthongs to account for that vowel, which occurs in words like near, bare, cure, and letter. Currently, Nooalf spells them NER, BeR, CYQR, and LeTR, but it would be more accurate to represent the vowelized "R" as a "UR" dipthong:
• Have the "air" and "are" sounds rendered as "AUR" so that bare and bear would be BAUR, and chair would be CAUR.
• Have the "er" sound rendered as "UR" so that letter would be LeTUR.
Those two are really the only ones that need distinguishing. In the first case, the vowel sound is actually different. In the second case, it clears up confusion, i.e. it's why AKYRIT was indecipherable to me. Had it been spelled AKYURIT, I would have instantly read it correctly.

The "ear," "eer," and "ure" sounds are also missing that same vowel (the one that's missing in chair), but I don't believe the dipthong is necessary either for pronunciation or legibility reasons. For example:
• NER is perfectly legible; obviously, it's near. Adding a dipthong to represent the missing sound—by spelling it NEUR, actually adds confusion, IMO.
• KYQR is also legible as cure. For the same reasons, spelling it KYQUR would just add confusion.
—————
Same issue in the paragraph below...
It took me a few seconds to decipher NYQ; I would've spelled it NQ. I still don't know what the girl's surname is, because I've no idea what the vowel before the "R" is. If it's "Morgan," shouldn't it be spelled MORGIN? If it's not "Morgan," then I have no idea what it is. Also, I don't know why you rendered the "a" like the "o" in bomb.
JO 753 wrote:aN INTUReSTING xING - U GRL i NYQ BEFOR i KREATID NQaLF WUZ NAMD EVo MRGoN ("Eva Mrgan") and LiK YQ, i DIDNT UNDRSTaND IT. i WUZ sR XeR WUZ U MISING LeTR, BUT KuDNT FIGYR eNE UXR WA TQ PRONoWNS IT. i xINK ITS SWEDIs, SO XA GeT XaT ITS U VoWL.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:43 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
JO 753 wrote:DQ YOU
:mrgreen:

:oops: iM RQIND! Mi TECING KURER IZ OVR. i WIL HaF TQ WoNDR oWT INTQ XE UNCoRTID WILDRNeS FOR 20 YIRZ TQ UTON FOR XU sAM.

Ho! LuKS LiK XU SPeLCeK HaZ xRON IN XU ToWL! ITS STIL ReD UNDRLiNING XU NYQ STUF i TiP, BUT aFTR XIS IN XU KWOTID STUF, XeRZ ONLE U FYQ xINGZ UNDRLiND.

The vowel in egg, designated in Nooalf as "e," is NOT the same as the vowel in chair, even taking into account the "r." The vowel in egg is phonetically written "e," but the vowel in chair is written "eǝr."


IF YR REFRRING TQ U STaNDRD PRONUNSEAsN GiD, XaTS Wi YR STIL NoT GeTING IT. IT WUZ RITIN Bi aN INGLIs SPEKR HQ DUZNT REULiZ R IZ U VoWL.

RED XIS oWT LoWD: CeeeeeeeeeeeeRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. CeeeeeeeeeeeeUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

XeN IN YOR DiULeKT: CAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR. CAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

SE?

... it's why AKYRIT was indecipherable to me. Had it been spelled AKYURIT, I would have instantly read it correctly.


DID i GQF UGeN? i SA 'aKYRIT'.

XaTS U GuD eGZaMPL FOR U WRD XaT KaN BE SPeLT SeVRL WAZ FOR XU SAM DiULeKT: aKYRIT, aKYRRIT & aKYURIT oL SoWND KUMPLETLE NORML TQ ME.

• NER is perfectly legible; obviously, it's near. Adding a dipthong to represent the missing sound—by spelling it NEUR, actually adds confusion, IMO.
• KYQR is also legible as cure. For the same reasons, spelling it KYQUR would just add confusion.


i SA 'NIR', BUT 'NER' oLSO SoWNZ NORML. i SA 'KYR'. 'KYQR' SoWNZ U LITL OKSFORD BRITIs TQ ME.

It took me a few seconds to decipher NYQ; I would've spelled it NQ.


i SA 'NYQ' aND HaD ORIJINULE NAMD XU SISTUM 'NYQaLF'. BUT U FReND POENTID oWT XaT MOR PEPL SA 'NQ' XaN 'NYQ', SO SINS HaF XE iDEU IZ EFIsINSE, i WUZ HaPE TQ DRoP XU 'Y'

I still don't know what the girl's surname is, because I've no idea what the vowel before the "R" is.


XaTS WUT iM SAIN! XeR IZ NO VoWL BEFOR XE R! R IZ XU VoWL. ONLE IN SWEDIs, XA SA R Bi FLaPING XeR ToNG oN XU RuF UV XeR MoWx.

Also, I don't know why you rendered the "a" like the "o" in bomb.


MeNE UXR LaNGWIJIZ DONT HaV XE 'a' SoWND. XeR SoWND FOR XU LeTR 'a' IZ 'o'.

i SE XaT YQ NED TQ RED XU LoJIK SeKsN UGeN. YQ oR STIL TRiING TQ IMPOZ STaNDRD LINGWISTIK LoJIK oN NQaLF. i GeS IT IZNT HeLPING WeN i GO ULoNG WIx XU VoWL, KoNSONaNT, DIFxoNG REZUNING.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:42 am

JO 753 wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
JO 753 wrote:DQ YOU
:mrgreen:

:oops: iM RQIND! Mi TECING KURER IZ OVR. i WIL HaF TQ WoNDR oWT INTQ XE UNCoRTID WILDRNeS FOR 20 YIRZ TQ UTON FOR XU sAM.
:lol: STQWE GRIFIN WuD SA XaT YOR RQWIND. :mrgreen:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
JO 753 wrote:The vowel in egg, designated in Nooalf as "e," is NOT the same as the vowel in chair, even taking into account the "r." The vowel in egg is phonetically written "e," but the vowel in chair is written "eǝr."
IF YR REFRRING TQ U STaNDRD PRONUNSEAsN GiD, XaTS Wi YR STIL NoT GeTING IT. IT WUZ RITIN Bi aN INGLIs SPEKR HQ DUZNT REULiZ R IZ U VoWL.
GOING INTQ INGLIs UGeN...

The way you've got it spelled, the "R" at the end of CeR (chair) is spelled the same as the "R" at the beginning of RaBIT (rabbit). The problem is that they're pronounced differently. The "R" in RaBIT is not a vowel; it's a consonant that's pronounced "R." The "R" is CeR is a diphthong that's pronounced "UR," like in KURER...which you do spell with an "UR," even though it's the same sound as in WILDRNeS (WILDURNeS), which you spell with just an "R." Say them together: career...wilderness...chair. They all have the same "UR" sound...KURER, WILDURNeS, CHAUR.

So, you have the Nooalf "R" with two different pronunciations, which defeats the purpose. And if the woman's surname was "Morgan," and you spell it MRGoN, you've now added a third pronunciation to "R"... "OR." The symbol "R" can't be both a consonant (RaBIT) and several different vowels, or the whole idea of Nooalf falls apart. No one can decipher what the "R" is supposed to be if the context is unfamiliar, like in MRGoN. (People think that German is a difficult language, but it's pronounced exactly the way it's spelled...and spelled exactly the way it's pronounced.)

You've already accepted the fact that you have to use a diphthong for "ow" (KoW) and "ou" (SoWND)—and in both cases, the "W" there is a vowel—so why balk at introducing a "UR" diphthong for the sound "air" (chair) and "ear" (bear)?
JO 753 wrote:RED XIS oWT LoWD: CeeeeeeeeeeeeRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. CeeeeeeeeeeeeUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

XeN IN YOR DiULeKT: CAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR. CAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

SE?
IF YQ SA IT SLOLE, CAUR IZ NERLE U TQ SILUBL WURD BECUZ UV XU MULTIPL VoWL SoWNDZ.
Nikki Nyx wrote:
JO 753 wrote:... it's why AKYRIT was indecipherable to me. Had it been spelled AKYURIT, I would have instantly read it correctly.
DID i GQF UGeN? i SA 'aKYRIT'.
NOP. i DID. :? i suD HaV RITIN "aKYRIT" aND "aKYURIT."
Nikki Nyx wrote:
JO 753 wrote:• NER is perfectly legible; obviously, it's near. Adding a dipthong to represent the missing sound—by spelling it NEUR, actually adds confusion, IMO.
• KYQR is also legible as cure. For the same reasons, spelling it KYQUR would just add confusion.
i SA 'NIR', BUT 'NER' oLSO SoWNZ NORML. i SA 'KYR'. 'KYQR' SoWNZ U LITL OKSFORD BRITIs TQ ME.
"NYQ" SoWNDZ JUST aZ oD TQ ME. ;)
Nikki Nyx wrote:
JO 753 wrote:I still don't know what the girl's surname is, because I've no idea what the vowel before the "R" is.
XaTS WUT iM SAIN! XeR IZ NO VoWL BEFOR XE R! R IZ XU VoWL. ONLE IN SWEDIs, XA SA R Bi FLaPING XeR ToNG oN XU RuF UV XeR MoWx.
oL WeL aND GuD, BUT i STIL HaV NO iDEU HoW TQ PRONoWNS IT! BECUZ YOR MAKING YOR "R" DQ DUBL TiM! (aND IF IT IZ "Morgan," YOR "R" IZ NoW DQING TRIPL TiM.)
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:07 am

NQaLF DUZ NoT SPeSIFi U DRRAsN FOR eNE LeTR.

aN INTUReSTING WRD IZ Rx. YQ KaN PoSUBLE MISPRONoWNS IT, BUT IT WuD BE CLERLE RoNG & oKWRD. YQ KuD oRGYQ XaT XeR suD BE 2 DIFRINT oRZ, MABE U 'RiZING R' & U 'FoLING R', BUT ITS RELE JUST XU TRaNZIsUN TQ XU NeKST SoWND XaTS DIFRINT.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:23 pm

Overall, my opinion of NOALF is like watching a drunk adult try to ride one of those springy horses at the kids' playground.

There's no way it's going to hold any weight, but it's funny to see them try and fall off.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Austin Harper » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:51 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Juː nəʊ, JO, ɪf juː ˈrɪəli wɒnt tʊ ɪmˈprɛs ˈpiːp(ə)l, juː'd ˈəʊnli rʌɪt ɪn ðəʊz wɪəd fəˈnɛtɪk prəˌnʌnsɪˈeɪʃ(ə)n ɡʌɪdz ɪn ˈdɪkʃ(ə)n(ə)riz.

:P
Spoiler:
You know, JO, if you really want to impress people you'd only write in those weird phonetic pronunciation guides in dictionaries.

I've made that suggestion before as have others
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:53 pm

And here I thought I was being all new and edgy. Just goes to show, huh?

*cough* Esperanto.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:44 am

JO 753 wrote:NQaLF DUZ NoT SPeSIFi U DRRAsN FOR eNE LeTR.
BUT XaTZ NoT WUT iM ToKING UBoWT...XU SoWNDZ oR aKTQULE DIFRINT.

JO 753 wrote:aN INTUReSTING WRD IZ Rx. YQ KaN PoSUBLE MISPRONoWNS IT, BUT IT WuD BE CLERLE RoNG & oKWRD. YQ KuD oRGYQ XaT XeR suD BE 2 DIFRINT oRZ, MABE U 'RiZING R' & U 'FoLING R', BUT ITS RELE JUST XU TRaNZIsUN TQ XU NeKST SoWND XaTS DIFRINT.
i HaV NO iDEU WUT "Rx" IZ SUPOZD TQ BE. EVIN IF i aD UNUXR "R," i STIL CaNT DESiFR IT, BEKUZ i DONT NO HoW YOR PRONoWNSING XU "R."

ITS NoT Rax or RAx, SO XeR MUST BE U VoWL SoWND BEFOR XU "R." IZ IT "Earth?" (i TiPD oL XaT SO YQ WuD SE XU xoT PRoSeS i HaD TQ GO xRQ TQ GeT XeR. HaD YQ SPeLD IT "URx," i WuD ReD IT aZ NaTYuRULE aZ "Earth.")
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:30 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:i HaV NO iDEU WUT "Rx" IZ SUPOZD TQ BE. EVIN IF i aD UNUXR "R," i STIL CaNT DESiFR IT, BEKUZ i DONT NO HoW YOR PRONoWNSING XU "R."

ITS NoT Rax or RAx, SO XeR MUST BE U VoWL SoWND BEFOR XU "R." IZ IT "Earth?" (i TiPD oL XaT SO YQ WuD SE XU xoT PRoSeS i HaD TQ GO xRQ TQ GeT XeR. HaD YQ SPeLD IT "URx," i WuD ReD IT aZ NaTYuRULE aZ "Earth.")


:lol: IT RELE IZ XIS HoRD TQ GeT XE R XING!

DID YQ MoWS OVR OR KLIK XU PIKsR/LeTR/SoWND BoKSeZ oN XU CoRT PAJ? XeR oR 13 SPOKeN eGZaMPLZ UV R XeR.

YQ RELE DO NED TQ RED aT LEST XU FRST 5 PaRUGRaFS UNDR XU LoJIK HeDING oN XU LoJIK PAJ UGeN. XaTS YOR USiNMeNT FOR TQDA.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:44 pm

OKA. Mi "CaNT" MISTAK WuZ U REL FLUB, BUT Mi "ReD" MISTAK WUZ aKTQULE U GRaMR MISTAK...i MeNT TQ SA, "i WuD HaV ReD IT aZ NATYuRULE..." QPS! i HaV LISIND TQ XU CoRT, BUT i WIL DQ SO UGeN, aZ WEL aZ REREDING XU LoJIK PAJ.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:07 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:OKA. Mi "CaNT" MISTAK WuZ U REL FLUB, BUT Mi "ReD" MISTAK WUZ aKTQULE U GRaMR MISTAK...i MeNT TQ SA, "i WuD HaV ReD IT aZ NATYuRULE..." QPS! i HaV LISIND TQ XU CoRT, BUT i WIL DQ SO UGeN, aZ WEL aZ REREDING XU LoJIK PAJ.


UBoWT T IN MeNE WRDZ WeN FoLOD Bi R - YQjYULE WE SUBSTITQT C. NaCRULE, WE WoNT TQ SPEK SMQXLE & EFIsINTLE. T oFTeN GeTS REPLAST WIx D, BUT BEFOR R WeN XeRZ MOR aFTR XE R, C WRKS MUC BeDR.
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Re: Opinions on Nooalf

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:55 pm

LiK "NaCRULE." XaT MAKS SeNS.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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