English multitopic

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:47 am

Going from north to south ...
Ma lum ...
Me chumley ...
My chimney ...

And you think YOU have problems.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:18 pm

I didnt need any tranzlationz. Go ahed & try a few sentensez.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:33 pm

LunaNik wrote:... A short conversation somewhere in the South...
"Jeet?"
"Naw joo?"
"Naw skoo-eet."


Wilds of Yorkshire version ...
Astadtheedinner?
Nay. Worrabartthee?
Nay. Lessgooairt.
To make matters worse, the first t in "Worrabartthee" would actually be a glottal stop.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:45 am

Poodle wrote:Going from north to south ...
Ma lum ...
Me chumley ...
My chimney ...

And you think YOU have problems.

Well, I can add to the problem: there are different vocabularies in addition to different dialects. Probably the most common one is the word for this:
Image
In my part of New England, it's a grinder. In the Deep South, it's a po'boy. Mostly everywhere else, it's a sub, except where it's a hoagie or a hero.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:46 am

Poodle wrote:
LunaNik wrote:... A short conversation somewhere in the South...
"Jeet?"
"Naw joo?"
"Naw skoo-eet."


Wilds of Yorkshire version ...
Astadtheedinner?
Nay. Worrabartthee?
Nay. Lessgooairt.
To make matters worse, the first t in "Worrabartthee" would actually be a glottal stop.

I can understand that reading it, but I probably wouldn't be able to just by listening.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:08 am

JO 753 wrote:I didnt need any tranzlationz. Go ahed & try a few sentensez.

"Hah! Kinnah hail pew?"
"Jew puttin ayuhd inna paypurr boutcher kayut?"
"Yut. Yew fixinna getta kee-utty?"
"Ah shore ayum, iffin yew steel gut enny."
"Wayell, yerinn luck. Ah gut wan left. Cumminna howss. Mahnd thu stayup."

(I've never in my life seen so many squiggly red underlines in anything I've typed...lol.)
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:13 am

LunaNik wrote:Image
In my part of New England, it's a grinder. In the Deep South, it's a po'boy. Mostly everywhere else, it's a sub, except where it's a hoagie or a hero.

Sammich!
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Re: English multitopic

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:56 am

A dogs breakfast...

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Re: English multitopic

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:00 am

LunaNik wrote:"Hah! Kinnah hail pew?"
"Jew puttin ayuhd inna paypurr boutcher kayut?"
"Yut. Yew fixinna getta kee-utty?"
"Ah shore ayum, iffin yew steel gut enny."
"Wayell, yerinn luck. Ah gut wan left. Cumminna howss. Mahnd thu stayup."


"Are you putting an ad in the paper about your cat?"

"Yes. Are you working on getting a kitten?"

"I sure am, if you still have any."

"Well, you're in luck. I have one left. Come in the house. Mind the step."
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Monster » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:59 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Poodle wrote:Going from north to south ...
Ma lum ...
Me chumley ...
My chimney ...

And you think YOU have problems.

Well, I can add to the problem: there are different vocabularies in addition to different dialects. Probably the most common one is the word for this:
Image
In my part of New England, it's a grinder. In the Deep South, it's a po'boy. Mostly everywhere else, it's a sub, except where it's a hoagie or a hero.

In Stamford, it's called a "wedge". In some other places, it's called a "sub" or "submarine sandwich".

:)
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:06 pm

Monster wrote:
LunaNik wrote:Probably the most common one is the word for this:
Image
In my part of New England, it's a grinder. In the Deep South, it's a po'boy. Mostly everywhere else, it's a sub, except where it's a hoagie or a hero.

In Stamford, it's called a "wedge". In some other places, it's called a "sub" or "submarine sandwich".

:)

I hadn't heard the term "wedge" before. Any idea on the history? Allegedly, "grinder" stems from its original form included ground meat.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Monster » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:06 pm

LunaNik wrote:
Monster wrote:
LunaNik wrote:Probably the most common one is the word for this:
Image
In my part of New England, it's a grinder. In the Deep South, it's a po'boy. Mostly everywhere else, it's a sub, except where it's a hoagie or a hero.

In Stamford, it's called a "wedge". In some other places, it's called a "sub" or "submarine sandwich".

:)

I hadn't heard the term "wedge" before. Any idea on the history? Allegedly, "grinder" stems from its original form included ground meat.

This has some info.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_sandwich
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Re: English multitopic

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:28 am

JO 753 wrote:
LunaNik wrote:"Hah! Kinnah hail pew?"


"Hi! Can I help you?" Had me stumped on 'hail pew' till now.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:32 am

JO 753 wrote:
LunaNik wrote:"Hah! Kinnah hail pew?"
"Jew puttin ayuhd inna paypurr boutcher kayut?"
"Yut. Yew fixinna getta kee-utty?"
"Ah shore ayum, iffin yew steel gut enny."
"Wayell, yerinn luck. Ah gut wan left. Cumminna howss. Mahnd thu stayup."


"Are you putting an ad in the paper about your cat?"

"Yes. Are you working on getting a kitten?"

"I sure am, if you still have any."

"Well, you're in luck. I have one left. Come in the house. Mind the step."

Pretty close!
"Hi! Can I help you?"
"Did you put an ad in the paper about your cat?"
"Yes. Are you interested in getting a kitten? (Yep. You fixing to get a kitty?)"
"I sure am, if you still have (got) any."
"Well, you're in luck. I have (got) one left. Come in the house. Mind the step."
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:50 am

I wuz tranzlating to correct grammar also. (trying at least)
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:10 pm

JO 753 wrote:I wuz tranzlating to correct grammar also. (trying at least)

I did notice that! :wgrin:
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:44 am

Image

It looks like a prescription for a coronary bypass.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:35 am

ElectricMonk wrote:It looks like a prescription for a coronary bypass.

Ugh, don't remind me of the barbecue I went to on Saturday.

After it was over, I had to "finish off the ice cream". It was a quarter of a gallon. And someone had dumped a half litre of whipped cream on top of it without mentioning it to me.

I can hear my blood moving through my veins today. It's going "squitch, squitch, squitch". :?

Also, my shirt doesn't seem to fit today. It's like someone stuffed a pillow under there.

http://www.gocomics.com/foxtrot/2017/06/18

Yeah. Like that.

Also, it's four pillows, not one.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:57 am

calorie
noun \ cal·o·rie \ˈka-lə-rē, ˈkal-rē\

Definition: Small critter that comes out to sew your clothes a bit tighter every time you sleep.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:02 am

I'm just gonna stick this in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6eXw0AAKZ8
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:02 am

Oh, and while I'm here....

Gord wrote:"Heh heh. 'Butterscotch'." :heh:

Haaa, ha ha ha ha haaa! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: English multitopic

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:29 am

Butternutsquash? Mine are now in need of support....

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:06 pm

Gord wrote:I'm just gonna stick this in here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6eXw0AAKZ8

Thanks for posting; that was fascinating. The idea that language shapes thought reminds me of Heinlein's novella Gulf, in which one of the main characters, Hartley Baldwin, has assembled (and was continuing to assemble) a group of what he considered to be superior human beings—those able to think critically under stress—and has established a training program, living quarters, laboratory, and such for the purpose of guiding the human race toward peaceable relations.

One of the elements of the training program was learning Speedtalk, an artificial language based on utilizing an expanded phonology to shorten both thinking and communication time. The phonology made use of not only pronunciation, but also rising and falling tones to translate a basic vocabulary of words into one-syllable sounds, which could then be combined, portmanteau-style, with ancillary vocabularies to communicate complex ideas.

The theory behind Speedtalk was both to eliminate the inherent illogic in language, and to increase the processing speed of the human brain. Heinlein based the idea on the work of Alfred Korzybski and Samuel Renshaw. (Gulf is one of four novellas in the book Assignment in Eternity.)
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:36 pm

My Speedtalk name for that: gulp.

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:22 pm

Too long, unless your name includes a description of the ingredients. :mrgreen:
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:41 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:One of the elements of the training program was learning Speedtalk, an artificial language based on utilizing an expanded phonology to shorten both thinking and communication time. The phonology made use of not only pronunciation, but also rising and falling tones to translate a basic vocabulary of words into one-syllable sounds, which could then be combined, portmanteau-style, with ancillary vocabularies to communicate complex ideas.

The theory behind Speedtalk was both to eliminate the inherent illogic in language, and to increase the processing speed of the human brain. Heinlein based the idea on the work of Alfred Korzybski and Samuel Renshaw. (Gulf is one of four novellas in the book Assignment in Eternity.)

Interestingly, it seems that languages may convey the same amount of information regardless of their comparative "speeds": https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... t-talkers/

...Last year, in an issue of the journal Language, François Pel­legrino and his colleagues at the Univer­sity of Lyon in France published their analysis of the speech of 59 people read­ing the same 20 texts aloud in seven languages. They found Japanese and Spanish, often described as “fast lan­guages,” clocked the greatest number of syllables per second. The “slowest” language in the set was Mandarin, followed closely by German.

But the story does not end there. The researchers also calculated the infor­mation density for the syllables of each language by comparing them with an eighth language, Vietnamese, which served as an arbitrary reference. They found that an average Spanish syllable conveys only a small quantity of infor­mation, contributing just a fragment to the overall meaning of a sentence. In contrast, an individual Mandarin sylla­ble contains a much larger quantity of information, possibly because Mandarin syllables in­clude tones. The upshot is that Spanish and Mandarin actually convey information to listeners at about the same rate. The correlation between speech rate and information density held for five out of seven of the lan­guages studied, and the researchers conjectured that, despite the diversity of languages in the world, over time they all deliver a constant rate of information, possibly tuned to the human perceptual system....

That article was from 2012. I found something else on Wikipedia which seems to say the opposite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_te ... ifferences

...In the absence of reliable evidence to support it, it seems that the widespread view that some languages are spoken more rapidly than others is an illusion. This illusion may well be related to other factors such as differences of rhythm and pausing. In another study, an analysis of speech rate and perception in radio bulletins, the average rate of bulletins varied from 168 (English, BBC) to 210 words per minutes (Spanish, RNE).


But most of its references seem to be from the 1990s or earlier (1998, 1992, 1964, 1977, and 1982 to be exact), except for one paper (undated, but with references from up to 2010), the abstract of which says:

Speech rate is one of the most important elements in a news presentation, especially on radio, a sound medium. Accordingly, this study seeks to compare broadcasters’ speech rate and the number of pauses in 40 news bulletins from the BBC (United Kingdom), Radio France (France), RAI (Italy), and RNE (Spain). Most authors addressing the medium of radio recommend a speech rate of between 160 and 180 words per minute (wpm). If this rate is considered, only one radio station, BBC, would be within the suitable limits. Instead, higher speeds and fewer pauses have been identified in the RAI and RNE bulletins. The second part of this study attempts to analyze whether perception in the news can be affected by different speech rates. The findings indicate that the extent to which the individuals surveyed experience subjective assessment varies according to the speech rate.

It's a little puzzling.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:04 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:... a group of what he considered to be superior human beings—those able to think critically under stress—and has established a training program, living quarters, laboratory, and such for the purpose of guiding the human race toward peaceable relations.

What a great idea! It's nice to be a member of such an organisation :D

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:54 am

Gord wrote:Interestingly, it seems that languages may convey the same amount of information regardless of their comparative "speeds"...That article was from 2012. I found something else on Wikipedia which seems to say the opposite...It's a little puzzling. (snipped for brevity)

Fascinating! I'm not sure why I'm surprised this has been studied.

But what if we did create Speedtalk? Instead of having to say (and think) "extremely important assignment," there would be merely one monosyllabic sound for "important," a second for for "extremely," and a third for "assignment." So, instead of nine cumbersome syllables, we've conveyed the thought in only one monosyllabic "word." Speedtalk wouldn't have the flavor of a more developed language; I wouldn't suggest writing poetry in it! It would be a difficult language to design to be pronounceable by humans, especially with a more limited lexicon.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Gord » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:33 am

I don't know, but I think the point is that languages are always adapting in conflicting directions -- on the one hand we're trying to be quicker in our exchanges of information, while on the other we're trying to expand how many types of information we can exchange. And perhaps there's only so much information our pathetic little brains can absorb in time-blocks of conversation.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:40 am

Nikki Nyx wrote: Speedtalk wouldn't have the flavor of a more developed language; I wouldn't suggest writing poetry in it! It would be a difficult language to design to be pronounceable by humans, especially with a more limited lexicon.
[/quote]
The point of English............the Bestest Language Man has Yet Invented..........is that it is easy to modify. Words can be understood from their roots. Not so with speed talk where you need a specific sound for each concept.

We already have the side shoot on how difficult a language Japanese is because of this very limitation. It will be speed talk for the 15 people who spend their whole lives learning its individual grunts. Not for people earning a living.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:05 am

Gord wrote:I don't know, but I think the point is that languages are always adapting in conflicting directions -- on the one hand we're trying to be quicker in our exchanges of information, while on the other we're trying to expand how many types of information we can exchange. And perhaps there's only so much information our pathetic little brains can absorb in time-blocks of conversation.
Well, the people who learned and spoke it in Heinlein's story were "superhumans." :mrgreen:
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:09 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote: Speedtalk wouldn't have the flavor of a more developed language; I wouldn't suggest writing poetry in it! It would be a difficult language to design to be pronounceable by humans, especially with a more limited lexicon.

The point of English............the Bestest Language Man has Yet Invented..........is that it is easy to modify. Words can be understood from their roots. Not so with speed talk where you need a specific sound for each concept.

We already have the side shoot on how difficult a language Japanese is because of this very limitation. It will be speed talk for the 15 people who spend their whole lives learning its individual grunts. Not for people earning a living.

Good point. Knowing one's Latin and Greek word roots helps immensely when encountering new vocabulary. You also remind me how Esperanto has failed to catch on. Sci-fi stories often discuss some sort of "basic language," usually a trade language, but humans don't seem to be interested.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:58 am


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Re: English multitopic

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:37 pm

Gord wrote:I don't know, but I think the point is that languages are always adapting in conflicting directions -- on the one hand we're trying to be quicker in our exchanges of information, while on the other we're trying to expand how many types of information we can exchange. And perhaps there's only so much information our pathetic little brains can absorb in time-blocks of conversation.


Some people seem to need infinite time to absorb even the simplest concepts of reality
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:49 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Like, arithmetically. :-P

Portuguese phrase: Tenho vontade de vomitar.
Idiomatic translation: I feel sick.
Given translation: I have mind to vomit.

The given translation works for "I have an opinion to share." :lol:
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: English multitopic

Postby JO 753 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:02 pm

english perfect eliminate connect wordz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-YPUHo2uts
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Re: English multitopic

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:27 pm

Jo---reminds me of the notion that American Indians "knew of" the wheel, but had no use for it. I believe...children did use the wheel as a toy to move on the ground balanced with a stick to push it? Probably apocryphal.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:28 am

Soundz plauzible. Humanz are often blind to the potential uv new thingz.
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Re: English multitopic

Postby Poodle » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:46 am


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Re: English multitopic

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:40 am

My theory iz that they were creaturez uv tradition just like modern humanz. There were way rad punks like me back then also, being ignored no matter how much their inventionz woud improve life. I'm not bragging, I'm just stating the facts. This thred iz a tribute to a mountain uv squanderaj that makes the wasted labor uv thoze weeless troglodites look like an ant hill. Not wun uv thoze big African ant hillz - I'm tokking about the wunz you see on a crack in the sidewok.
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